Hitchens On Billy Graham

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

 

I spent most of my Christian life in Independent Baptist churches before switching to Southern.

Southern was definitely more liberal.

Thanks Jds. I don't think many people are aware of this fact.

I never attended an Independant Baptist church. Can you describe the differences?

.

 

Sorry Diva. Just read your post and the link. Wow! IFB makes Southern Baltist look like backslider heathens! Definitely cultish.

[Deva]

Regarding John R. Rice, whose newspaper "The Sword of the Lord" was a very popular Independent Baptist publication:

 

In 1932 he founded the Fundamentalist Baptist Church in Dallas. In 1934, he founded The Sword of the Lord, a bi-weekly publication that has grown into the foremost Fundamentalist newsletter in the world. It vigorously exposed the evils of a liberalism, Catholicism, Communism, the civil rights movement, and various other vices, including dancing, alcohol, smoking, and motion pictures.

In 1939 he left Dallas for Wheaton, Illinois in 1940, which became the base for The Sword and for his full-time evangelism. He attacked Billy Graham for cooperating with liberal ministers in his evangelistic crusades.

 

http://www.conservapedia.com/John_R._Rice

 

disclaimer: I would not normally quote Conservapedia on any topic other than this one.

 

Yes, DoubtingNate, you are right!

[Guest afireinside]

Hitchens on Billy Graham?

 

Bad mental image

 

Billy would have been up for it I'm sure but I don't think he would have been Christopher's type-god rest his soul.

[Gamecock1973]

 

 

I spent most of my Christian life in Independent Baptist churches before switching to Southern.

Southern was definitely more liberal.

Thanks Jds. I don't think many people are aware of this fact.

I never attended an Independant Baptist church. Can you describe the differences?

 

My Aunt has been a member of a small independent baptist church for the last 30 years.  They definitely look down on the southern baptists as too liberal (theologically, not politically).  The women wear skirts or dresses and hold to the idea that wearing pants or jeans is sinful.  They only sing hymns accompanied by piano or organ (no devil instruments like drums and guitars!), Women do not ever preach or teach the congregation, except for teaching children.  The King James bible is the only true word of god.  I could go on.

[miekko]

Very slightly of topic, Graham was quoted years ago saying that only Christians could get into heaven, the current Pope has said that non christians are allowed in.

 

They read the same Bible stories, yet cannot agree on what the texts are saying

Catholic beliefs aren't really derived from the Bible the way protestant beliefs are, though - Catholicism is more about Greek philosophy with the Bible as an additional compendium of narratives and stuff. 

[earthmama514]

Oh yes I grew up in independent fundamental Baptist churches. Billy Graham was NOT allowed in our house or mentioned in church. He was too liberal and leading Christians astray. Southern Baptists are looked down on as well for being too liberal.

I had to always wear a skirt growing up, have long hair, was given a purity ring at a young age, only allowed to "court" boys with constant adult supervision, women had to be silent in the church, and men were the best thing to walk on earth and women were the dirt they walked on. I was expected to become a wife and eventually a stay at home mom. Working outside the home while your kids went to daycare was akin to sending them to hell and any version of the Bible except the KJV was literally used for a doorstop in our home because it was garbage.

 

I'm ashamed it took me 4 years after leaving my parents home and getting married to have my eyes opened to just how awful that religion is.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Oh yes I grew up in independent fundamental Baptist churches. Billy Graham was NOT allowed in our house or mentioned in church. He was too liberal and leading Christians astray. Southern Baptists are looked down on as well for being too liberal.

I had to always wear a skirt growing up, have long hair, was given a purity ring at a young age, only allowed to "court" boys with constant adult supervision, women had to be silent in the church, and men were the best thing to walk on earth and women were the dirt they walked on. I was expected to become a wife and eventually a stay at home mom. Working outside the home while your kids went to daycare was akin to sending them to hell and any version of the Bible except the KJV was literally used for a doorstop in our home because it was garbage.

 

I'm ashamed it took me 4 years after leaving my parents home and getting married to have my eyes opened to just how awful that religion is.

 

Don't be ashamed, be proud of yourself for getting out of the cult.  

 

You might find this blog helpful.  Libby Anne was raised in a similar environment:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/

[Deva]

earthmama: I will just say also to be glad you are out of it. No reason to be ashamed.

 

I will say it is impossible for a female (yes, especially females!) raised in this kind of cult not to come out completely undamaged.  But he important thing is that we are the ones who woke up and saw what a horrible mess it is.

 

I am going to go out on a limb and say it isn't even actually Christianity - it is almost totally a creation of the modern era.  A Christian person living even three centuries ago (much less 1,000 years ago) would never make any sense of it.  It is a cult in every way.

 

We were taught and brainwashed to feel ashamed of being human and especially of being women. That is what I experienced. Its poison that I have spent the rest of my life in rebellion against. It is literally life destroying.  All of this is backed up 100% by parents and almost all the other authority figures in your life at a young age.

 

A person totally immersed in this cult doesn't even know the extent to which they are being manipulated and fed lies upon lies about a man's "spiritual authority in the home" and a woman's place. Women can't be spiritual authorities. They are not allowed to preach or be deacons. Its plainly because they are viewed as deficient, mentally and physically. 

 

My life today isn't great in some ways, but its always great that I am out of this cult.

[Deva]

Hey Burned, link to "Dr." Pat Creed, the guy who screwed up my mind for many years:

 

http://www.bimi.org/content/abCreed.php

 

Fortunately, I don't have a video to share, but the content I suspect is not different from the video you posted. Note the expression on his wife's face in the link.  This is a woman to be pitied.

 

The entire Creed family went on to have this family dynasty of pastors. Not into earning an honest living.

[BrotherJosh]

From what I have picked up on Billy Graham's son, Franklin, doesn't agree with his father's "liberal tendencies" and is moving the organization to become more conservative and fundamentalist. Billy Graham seemed to become less political later in life (he famously refused to join in with Falwell's Moral Majority in the 80's), but Franklin is moving the organization to become more and more politically active, and hard line. Franklin doesn't have the broad appeal his father enjoyed, and instead seems to have cast his lot with a shrill and vocal crowd. 

[Guest afireinside]

Was Jesus left wing or right wing politically?

 

I assumed he was liberal but seemingly all christiticians are conservative, it doesn't seem to fit

[RipVanWinkle]

"Was Jesus left wing or right wing politically?

 

I assumed he was liberal but seemingly all christiticians are conservative, it doesn't seem to fit."

afireinside

 

 

I think it's because Xtians don't get their belief from the bible, but from what their preachers and

other Xtian leaders tell them about the bible. Liberal social programs would, in my opinion, be right

in line with what Jesus taught about taking care of the poor. But our culture conflicts with that, at

least in some parts of the nation, like the South, for example. Xtianity in the US is made up of a

mixture of what the Xtian leaders say and what our culture says. Lifting yourself by your own

bootstraps is a strong part of southern culture and so is blended with the teachings of the bible as

determined by the churches. bill

[Guest Marty]

"Was Jesus left wing or right wing politically?

 

I assumed he was liberal but seemingly all christiticians are conservative, it doesn't seem to fit."

afireinside

 

 

I think it's because Xtians don't get their belief from the bible, but from what their preachers and

other Xtian leaders tell them about the bible. Liberal social programs would, in my opinion, be right

in line with what Jesus taught about taking care of the poor. But our culture conflicts with that, at

least in some parts of the nation, like the South, for example. Xtianity in the US is made up of a

mixture of what the Xtian leaders say and what our culture says. Lifting yourself by your own

bootstraps is a strong part of southern culture and so is blended with the teachings of the bible as

determined by the churches. bill

 

Racism also plays a huge part, I think.  My father parrots all the popular conservative reasons why we shouldn't help the poor, but knowing him I think it boils down more to not having his tax dollars helping brown people than it does to picking yourself up by your bootstraps.  If America was more homogenous racially, I don't think we would have the issues with Healthcare and other liberal programs...

[Blood]

Oh yes I grew up in independent fundamental Baptist churches. Billy Graham was NOT allowed in our house or mentioned in church. He was too liberal and leading Christians astray. Southern Baptists are looked down on as well for being too liberal.

I had to always wear a skirt growing up, have long hair, was given a purity ring at a young age, only allowed to "court" boys with constant adult supervision, women had to be silent in the church, and men were the best thing to walk on earth and women were the dirt they walked on. I was expected to become a wife and eventually a stay at home mom. Working outside the home while your kids went to daycare was akin to sending them to hell and any version of the Bible except the KJV was literally used for a doorstop in our home because it was garbage.

 

I'm ashamed it took me 4 years after leaving my parents home and getting married to have my eyes opened to just how awful that religion is.

 

I'm amazed to learn that there actually are Baptists who think Graham was "liberal." This shows just how insane religion is. No matter how extreme one person or sect appears to be, there's ALWAYS another sect more extreme than them. 

 

Is the "Independent" Baptist Church actually a collective denomination? Or do Baptists too crazy for the Southern Baptists simply call their own respective churches "independent"?

[Vigile]

If liberals hate the Jews, then Billy was a liberal.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRg7xvWyYog

[Blood]

 

"Was Jesus left wing or right wing politically?

 

I assumed he was liberal but seemingly all christiticians are conservative, it doesn't seem to fit."

afireinside

 

 

I think it's because Xtians don't get their belief from the bible, but from what their preachers and

other Xtian leaders tell them about the bible. Liberal social programs would, in my opinion, be right

in line with what Jesus taught about taking care of the poor. But our culture conflicts with that, at

least in some parts of the nation, like the South, for example. Xtianity in the US is made up of a

mixture of what the Xtian leaders say and what our culture says. Lifting yourself by your own

bootstraps is a strong part of southern culture and so is blended with the teachings of the bible as

determined by the churches. bill

 

Racism also plays a huge part, I think.  My father parrots all the popular conservative reasons why we shouldn't help the poor, but knowing him I think it boils down more to not having his tax dollars helping brown people than it does to picking yourself up by your bootstraps.  If America was more homogenous racially, I don't think we would have the issues with Healthcare and other liberal programs...

 

 

Yep, and that's why it isn't controversial in the least in most Western countries. Sweden, for example, is a totally homogenous country where everybody is white and Swedish, so there is no incessant demonizing of "the other" by racists and their political toadies. 

[DoubtingNate]

Aren't there lots of Muslims in Sweden though?  

[earthmama514]

 

 

Oh yes I grew up in independent fundamental Baptist churches. Billy Graham was NOT allowed in our house or mentioned in church. He was too liberal and leading Christians astray. Southern Baptists are looked down on as well for being too liberal.

I had to always wear a skirt growing up, have long hair, was given a purity ring at a young age, only allowed to "court" boys with constant adult supervision, women had to be silent in the church, and men were the best thing to walk on earth and women were the dirt they walked on. I was expected to become a wife and eventually a stay at home mom. Working outside the home while your kids went to daycare was akin to sending them to hell and any version of the Bible except the KJV was literally used for a doorstop in our home because it was garbage.

 

I'm ashamed it took me 4 years after leaving my parents home and getting married to have my eyes opened to just how awful that religion is.

I'm amazed to learn that there actually are Baptists who think Graham was "liberal." This shows just how insane religion is. No matter how extreme one person or sect appears to be, there's ALWAYS another sect more extreme than them.

 

Is the "Independent" Baptist Church actually a collective denomination? Or do Baptists too crazy for the Southern Baptists simply call their own respective churches "independent"?

There is no collective, hence the name "independent". Half the reason the southern Baptists were "bad" was because they have a collective telling them what to do. The Independent fundamental Baptists pride themselves on having no man tell them what to do. They get their instructions from God only.

Now we would get together with other IF churches and hold tent revivals and what not, have "concerts", and youth meetings but one of the churches chose to host and we took turns. No collective decided it.

 

I agree that you can always find a crazier sect somewhere. I can name a few that are worse then the one I grew up in. In fact, (pot calling the kettle here) we were warned away from going to those type of churches because they were "crazy and gave Christians a bad name" HA.

[Blood]

earthmama: I will just say also to be glad you are out of it. No reason to be ashamed.

 

I will say it is impossible for a female (yes, especially females!) raised in this kind of cult not to come out completely undamaged.  But he important thing is that we are the ones who woke up and saw what a horrible mess it is.

 

I am going to go out on a limb and say it isn't even actually Christianity - it is almost totally a creation of the modern era.  A Christian person living even three centuries ago (much less 1,000 years ago) would never make any sense of it.  It is a cult in every way.

 

We were taught and brainwashed to feel ashamed of being human and especially of being women. That is what I experienced. Its poison that I have spent the rest of my life in rebellion against. It is literally life destroying.  All of this is backed up 100% by parents and almost all the other authority figures in your life at a young age.

 

A person totally immersed in this cult doesn't even know the extent to which they are being manipulated and fed lies upon lies about a man's "spiritual authority in the home" and a woman's place. Women can't be spiritual authorities. They are not allowed to preach or be deacons. Its plainly because they are viewed as deficient, mentally and physically. 

 

My life today isn't great in some ways, but its always great that I am out of this cult.

 

Life destroying is correct. As bad as it is for boys, it's even worse for girls. The primary object is to destroy self-esteem/self-confidence, the very things you need to have to escape the cult and overcome groupthink. 

[Blood]

Was Jesus left wing or right wing politically?

 

I assumed he was liberal but seemingly all christiticians are conservative, it doesn't seem to fit

 

"Jesus" is an archetype, a reflection of one's own ego. Therefore "Jesus" can be whatever you want him to be. If you're a gun nut, Jesus was a gun nut. If you're a hippie, Jesus was a hippie. If you're an Army General, Jesus was an Army General. 

[earthmama514]

earthmama: I will just say also to be glad you are out of it. No reason to be ashamed.

 

I will say it is impossible for a female (yes, especially females!) raised in this kind of cult not to come out completely undamaged.  But he important thing is that we are the ones who woke up and saw what a horrible mess it is.

 

I am going to go out on a limb and say it isn't even actually Christianity - it is almost totally a creation of the modern era.  A Christian person living even three centuries ago (much less 1,000 years ago) would never make any sense of it.  It is a cult in every way.

 

We were taught and brainwashed to feel ashamed of being human and especially of being women. That is what I experienced. Its poison that I have spent the rest of my life in rebellion against. It is literally life destroying.  All of this is backed up 100% by parents and almost all the other authority figures in your life at a young age.

 

A person totally immersed in this cult doesn't even know the extent to which they are being manipulated and fed lies upon lies about a man's "spiritual authority in the home" and a woman's place. Women can't be spiritual authorities. They are not allowed to preach or be deacons. Its plainly because they are viewed as deficient, mentally and physically. 

 

My life today isn't great in some ways, but its always great that I am out of this cult.

 

 

 

earthmama: I will just say also to be glad you are out of it. No reason to be ashamed.

 

I will say it is impossible for a female (yes, especially females!) raised in this kind of cult not to come out completely undamaged.  But he important thing is that we are the ones who woke up and saw what a horrible mess it is.

 

I am going to go out on a limb and say it isn't even actually Christianity - it is almost totally a creation of the modern era.  A Christian person living even three centuries ago (much less 1,000 years ago) would never make any sense of it.  It is a cult in every way.

 

We were taught and brainwashed to feel ashamed of being human and especially of being women. That is what I experienced. Its poison that I have spent the rest of my life in rebellion against. It is literally life destroying.  All of this is backed up 100% by parents and almost all the other authority figures in your life at a young age.

 

A person totally immersed in this cult doesn't even know the extent to which they are being manipulated and fed lies upon lies about a man's "spiritual authority in the home" and a woman's place. Women can't be spiritual authorities. They are not allowed to preach or be deacons. Its plainly because they are viewed as deficient, mentally and physically. 

 

My life today isn't great in some ways, but its always great that I am out of this cult.

 

Life destroying is correct. As bad as it is for boys, it's even worse for girls. The primary object is to destroy self-esteem/self-confidence, the very things you need to have to escape the cult and overcome groupthink. 

 

Deva: thank you for that. It has been a long hard road away from that. I still am suffering the effects. I am so thankful for the birth of my daughter. It was the final piece i needed to get the courage to leave and not go back. I just couldnt imagine raising and treating my daughter the way i had been raised and treated. We are completely different parents then our parents were.

 

Blood: it is life destroying. I am still in therapy once a week for all the issues it has caused me. It took me almost 2 years after leaving to even go to therapy though because we were always told how bad therapy was and how it was just a form of the Devil's teachings. sigh.

[texmex2003]

What can I say about the nightmare of growning up female in a IBF church and one that only immediate family members attended. My grandfather was the lead pastor and my father was the assistant minister. As a female, I learned that it was sinful to be educated. It was something I would not need because my destiny was to marry and have children and cae for my spouse and children. I didn't need an education because my husband would make all the decisions for me. I was pushed towards dropping out of high school when I turned 16 and marry. Despite it all, I did not and got my high school diploma, the first female in my family to do so.

 

I went onto college and got a degree. I graduated in college in the early 90s and remain the only one, male or female, to do so to this day. The scars do run deep. Your whole life you are told that God sees you as a festering, putrid sore because of your sin. Witnessed use of bullwhips to drive out disobedience. Your are even more sinful when you are on your period. "all because of Eve." The daily use of the word whore (for divorced women or women who where pregnant out of wedlock), ni%%er, we#b@ck, etc.

 

When I escaped when I turned 18, I runs far as I could and attended a college as far as way as possible while still being eligible for in state tuition. The contempt for  education  kept everyone in my family poor so I was also able to get many scholarships and grants. The unlearning took almost decades and I became a non believer 13 years ago. I still carry the scars and I will probably always will. I continue to haven episodes of depression and anxiety. Anxiety dealing with God's desire to strike you dead instantly for the most minor of infractions and always waiting for the rapture.

 

I could go on for hours of the horrors of the cult of my early life. It sounds that there are others here that understand. I am so glad to be out of it.

 

by the way, Billy Graham was the equivalent of the antichrist when I was growing up.

 

[Positivist]

The unlearning took almost decades and I became a non believer 13 years ago. I still carry the scars and I will probably always will. I continue to haven episodes of depression and anxiety. Anxiety dealing with God's desire to strike you dead instantly for the most minor of infractions and always waiting for the rapture.

Hi there TM!

 

I was really moved by your story. That's just so terrible. I'm glad you're out. I too am crawling out from a mountain of gender-related self-hatred and am trying to decolonize my mind of the oh-so-may bad ideas religion planted. I keep wondering, "When will the stain of religion cease to colour me?" But I'm starting to think that it's like being an alcoholic--we'll always be "recovering" to some degree.

 

I think many of us also have PTSD related to our religious upbringing--fearing God striking us dead (or worse, Job style), etc.  It's taken me YEARS to get over coming home to an empty house and thinking "OH SH!T, THE RAPTURE'S HAPPENED AND I'VE BEEN LEFT BEHIND!"

 

Such a mind-fu(k. Yay us!! We're free. 

[Deva]

 

earthmama: I will just say also to be glad you are out of it. No reason to be ashamed.

 

I will say it is impossible for a female (yes, especially females!) raised in this kind of cult not to come out completely undamaged.  But he important thing is that we are the ones who woke up and saw what a horrible mess it is.

 

I am going to go out on a limb and say it isn't even actually Christianity - it is almost totally a creation of the modern era.  A Christian person living even three centuries ago (much less 1,000 years ago) would never make any sense of it.  It is a cult in every way.

 

We were taught and brainwashed to feel ashamed of being human and especially of being women. That is what I experienced. Its poison that I have spent the rest of my life in rebellion against. It is literally life destroying.  All of this is backed up 100% by parents and almost all the other authority figures in your life at a young age.

 

A person totally immersed in this cult doesn't even know the extent to which they are being manipulated and fed lies upon lies about a man's "spiritual authority in the home" and a woman's place. Women can't be spiritual authorities. They are not allowed to preach or be deacons. Its plainly because they are viewed as deficient, mentally and physically. 

 

My life today isn't great in some ways, but its always great that I am out of this cult.

 

Life destroying is correct. As bad as it is for boys, it's even worse for girls. The primary object is to destroy self-esteem/self-confidence, the very things you need to have to escape the cult and overcome groupthink. 

 

 

I came to see it that way Blood, but it took MANY years.  As a young person, I saw no reason to think that everyone shouldn't be Christian, and Christian was what I had been taught by the Independent Baptist Church.

[Deva]

I totally relate TexMex.  What puzzles me is why I was allowed to attend a secular college. I suppose there might have been some sanity in my parents to depart in that way from towing the line.  Anyway, college helped me tremendously.  Of course the minute I left home I dropped church. 

 

Deprogramming myself took literally decades though, with some reversals, and it seems like your situation was worse. Really all I can say is that I have some idea of where you are coming from and the amazing achievement you have already made in freeing yourself. 

 

Yes, the scars remain.  The programming is still there, but then my better self who understands the consequences of that kind of beleif always kicks in.  I can and will overcome this disastrous programming.