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"i Feel Sorry For You"


Yrth
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I like to think I have a good relationship with my parents. I like to think that. But then, invariably, there's an incident that reminds me that this isn't possible.

 

This weekend I was at my parents to help them out. One of the tasks was clearing out my old stuff. One of the boxes was full of books, including my old bible. The last thing I need in my apartment is more books, much less a bible, so I just left most of them there with the exception of a few comedic items. I let Dad know that particular area is cleared and go upstairs for a glass of water. I get back down, and the first thing he says to me is "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you." So then I'm pissed, and I say "why even say that? You know I know how you feel. And you know that I feel sorry for YOU, so really what's the point of saying that?" No real answer.

 

 

That was yesterday and its just been bothering me ever since. I must be some kind of idiot to allow myself to relax over there, because every time, I mean every time I do, he takes a shot. I should just know by now that Christians are ensorcelled. They will never, ever be at peace with me.

 

And just to make matters worse, I tried taking the high road today in an email, saying that I hadn't realized not taking that old bible would have caused hurt feelings (causing him to then insult me), assuring him that I have many keepsakes that I wouldn't give up because they both mean a lot to me. His reply, one sentence, "I was not hurt by your return of our gift to you, and this is not why I felt sorrow for you." Denial and intellectual dishonesty. Notice also how he just can't admit he was anything but an angel ("felt sorrow for you") -- must be hard maintaining that holier-than-thou + extreme-humble-brag exterior. "Felt sorrow," seriously? You felt sorrow for me and therefore say "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you" in that condescending tone? Yeah OK.

 

Like I said, I must be some kind of idiot.

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It sounds like you care too much about what your dad thinks. If you could learn to not give a shit, his opinions and remarks wouldn't bother you. Maybe you'd even consider them amusing.

 

When he said, "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you." a better response would've been, "Yep, because the Bible is crap anyway. Perhaps you should save your pity for someone who needs it, instead of wasting it on me". If it were said with a smile, it would be even better.

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It sounds like you care too much about what your dad thinks. If you could learn to not give a shit, his opinions and remarks wouldn't bother you. Maybe you'd even consider them amusing.

 

When he said, "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you." a better response would've been, "Yep, because the Bible is crap anyway. Perhaps you should save your pity for someone who needs it, instead of wasting it on me". If it were said with a smile, it would be even better.

 

I have to agree with this.  My dad is also a religious nut.  I hardly ever talk to him any more.  Its just not pleasant to talk with him, since we disagree on such a deep issue for him.

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I used to have these issues with my fundie Mom. I asked for advice here and tried to be nice as advised, but honestly I found being absolutely unpleasantly scathing to eventually produce the desired effect. My Mom now dare not mention anything about the Bible, or me being stupid for leaving the faith or Christianity at all because she knows she will have to deal with deep unpleasantness. Last time my tirade lasted two weeks. I emailed her a zillion sources debunking Christianity, shouted at her, used my knowledge of Christianity to belittle her (being the fundie that she is, she would often argue that Faith trumps all doubt and knowledge.... of course then that had to be attacked) ANYTHING to make it clear to her that any kind of challenge to my decision to leave Christianity would be treated with scorn, vitriol and contempt.

 

Sometimes you just have to do whatever it takes.

 

All of the my family totally (my aunts are christians too, but not fundies like my mom) get it now, and all of them avoid any talk of religion with me for fear they might be poking a stick into a beehive.

 

Of course its nice to be polite in the beginning but if that doesnt get you anywhere...

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It sounds like you care too much about what your dad thinks. If you could learn to not give a shit, his opinions and remarks wouldn't bother you. Maybe you'd even consider them amusing.

 

When he said, "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you." a better response would've been, "Yep, because the Bible is crap anyway. Perhaps you should save your pity for someone who needs it, instead of wasting it on me". If it were said with a smile, it would be even better.

 

He's clearly insulting me because his feelings are hurt for whatever reason. You really think the right thing to do is to try to hurt them further? Having said that, maybe you're right and the answer really is to care less about how he feels about me -- not that I have the first clue how that's accomplished. 

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He's clearly insulting me because his feelings are hurt for whatever reason. You really think the right thing to do is to try to hurt them further? Having said that, maybe you're right and the answer really is to care less about how he feels about me -- not that I have the first clue how that's accomplished. 

 

 

Not try to hurt him.  Rather reevaluate the situation.  Every day you pass people and you don't care one bit what they think about your religious views.  They are the other drivers on the road, the other customers in the restaurants.  Simply realize that your father's opinion isn't relevant to your life.

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He's clearly insulting me because his feelings are hurt for whatever reason. You really think the right thing to do is to try to hurt them further? Having said that, maybe you're right and the answer really is to care less about how he feels about me -- not that I have the first clue how that's accomplished. 

 

 

Not try to hurt him.  Rather reevaluate the situation.  Every day you pass people and you don't care one bit what they think about your religious views.  They are the other drivers on the road, the other customers in the restaurants.  Simply realize that your father's opinion isn't relevant to your life.

 

 

This is it.

 

You can worry that your views conflict and hurt him but really don't you have the same level and value of personal rights to your own damn opinions as he does? They say they gave you a gift in what? Your birth? you had no choice in that and the gift you now have is the right to make up your own damn mind without him guilting you to agree with him.

 

If he doesn't get that it sounds like you cleared out your stuff and can clear him right out to if he won't treat you the way a father should actually treat his son even if he won't agree with him.

 

Respect works both ways.

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With a lot of Christians, they never consider counter arguements against Christianity, infact they would rather remain in ignorance of them. So when you leave, its confusing for them. Wow this gal / guy is turning down eternal bliss!  Judging from his comments, its likely your father is this sort of Christian. If so, educate him. If he won't listen, shove it down his throat. With my mom, being nice / polite etc didnt work. Relentlessly presenting counter arguments and attacking her beliefs did. Name dropping also helps so it doesnt look like you are some sort of individual loner crazy person possessed by Satanic forces... did you know Richard Dawkins said in the God Delusion... blah blah blah.

Now she gets where I am coming from. She still thinks I am wrong, but understands even questioning my lack of belief will give arise to an attack on hers. She doesnt want this sort of trauma... our relationship is now far better.

Best to get things out in the open I think. I hurt my moms feelings no end. I feel this is unavoidable. Our relationship is definately not where it was before, but thats just the way things are, as children we develop in ways that they wont like. They have to learn to deal with that, and you have to help them.

 

Choice facts about the Bible in your situation would have helped.  Why would I want to take something that is so blatantly "INSERT CRITICISM".  You know a lot of people who really study the Bible think its no better than a work of fiction (INSERT FAMOUS SCHOLAR HERE... I name drop Diarmaid McCulloch a lot because, he teaches church history at Oxford University... my mom is in awe of these famous universities).  Did you know the Bible was pulled together 80 years after Jesus died.  I mean what happened in that time.  And what about all those gospels that didn't make the cut, that change the meaning.  The gospel of Thomas was once accepted by some Christian groups and then became heretical?  By those authority?  Why do they try and claim the Pentateuch was written by Moses when its clear now it was written by 4 different people?  Have you even heard of the skeptics annotated bible?  Have a look at this website for 5 mins.  http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/  Look at the mass of lies and contradictions.    Have you seen the website Evilbible.com.  You know there are passages in there where God condones Rape and Genocide.  Why would I want to read such trash?

 

He will have good arguments for some points, but there is enough thats stupid / unjustifiable about Christianity for you to easily win. Just make it relentless.  This fact, that fact, this criticism, that criticism.  If you need more ammo about a particular subject, just ask on this forum, a lot of people will be able to help you.  I found it best not to get too bogged down on one point because of the nature of a lot of the debating.  You wouldn't debate what pleases dancing fairies at the bottom of your garden because its absurd, and a lot of Christian debate is of the same nature.  Its best just to say its absurd from 20 different angles.

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So you are upset that your dad is treating you with disrespect and then you are concerned about his feelings to be hurt? Sounds quite dysfunctional to me and pretty classic.

 

I would say, if who you are is hurting your dads feelings, there is some work he needs to do on his behalf. Because it has to do with him and not so much with you.

 

If it hurts you that he feels sorry for you, maybe you need to take a look on why this is. Are you seeking his approval to be a good son? Where you that good son when you still believed?

 

I don't really have those discussion with my parents but then again I never had a close relationship to them either. But there are those situations when my dad can say something totally unloving and mostly it is when I need to ask him something (and this is rare because I fear those reactions and this for a reason). And it hurts me more then it should. I always wondered why it got that deep and yesterday I found my answer in an article about complex PTSD...they are emotional flashbacks to my childhood. I don't want to suggest that it is the same for you or everyone. Just when you have an out of proportion reaction to something, there is a reason for that and it has nothing to do with you being weak or so. I think most things come from trying to be a good person but failing in the eyes of our authority figures.

 

And now enough psycho talk :-)

 

I avoid too much contact with my parents and I don't know if this is the best to do but I do think that sometimes we just need to avoid people who don't get us for a while.

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You know, I was just thinking... maybe you can compose your thoughts and send him an email now about why you didn't take the bible.  Don't talk about your feelings, most guys hate this.  Concentrate on facts.  

 

I ended up having to be vitriloic and scathing to my mom but its better to start off politely.  Tell him about what you think is important now and how the Bible contradicts this... I believe that women should have equal rights, but the Bible is totally misogynistic.  Passages X, Y, Z say that women are the property of men (you can google this!) , the Church doesn't allow women to be ordained priests... etc. etc.  These reasons will be personal to you.  

 

Don't hide your anger.  Get it out in a positive way.

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You know, I was just thinking... maybe you can compose your thoughts and send him an email now about why you didn't take the bible.  Don't talk about your feelings, most guys hate this.  Concentrate on facts.  

 

I ended up having to be vitriloic and scathing to my mom but its better to start off politely.  Tell him about what you think is important now and how the Bible contradicts this... I believe that women should have equal rights, but the Bible is totally misogynistic.  Passages X, Y, Z say that women are the property of men (you can google this!) , the Church doesn't allow women to be ordained priests... etc. etc.  These reasons will be personal to you.  

 

Don't hide your anger.  Get it out in a positive way.

 

One doesn't have to necessarily be scathing to end this. Sometimes I am sure it is the way it goes but can't one also choose to eject themselves from teh situation and not go back to the source of the ill?

 

He doesn't need to take his anger out on anyone to get it out in a positive way and I disagree that it is the best way to vent ones anger. His father just needs to let his son have the same thing he has, a right to his views. Until that happens and his father grows up I myself would have nothing to do with him. Love is not guilting someone to your view poin, it is also not getting angry at someone simply because you don't like the way they respond to you. Self control has its merits. No reason to spew a bunch of anger just to be right when you can silently be right with the same outcome and less pain.

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One thing I have learned in my life is that that you cannot change people and that includes your own blood. You might be able to influence them a little, but you can never fully change a personality. They must do it themselves. They must see where they sabotage relationships and look at themselves in the mirror. It takes a big person to do this.

 

I feel the thing you might have to do is ask your heart how much pain this issue causes you ? If it causes a lot of pain, the best thing to do is back away slowly while showing respect. These are such tough situations. I've had to cut myself off from my own son because he causes me so much pain. It's a mother's worst heartbreak. These are such difficult decisions to have to make. Gut wrenching.

 

Good luck. I just try to treat everyone as fair as I can and with respect. It's the best any of us can do.

 

*Hug*

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You know, I was just thinking... maybe you can compose your thoughts and send him an email now about why you didn't take the bible. Don't talk about your feelings, most guys hate this. Concentrate on facts.

 

I ended up having to be vitriloic and scathing to my mom but its better to start off politely. Tell him about what you think is important now and how the Bible contradicts this... I believe that women should have equal rights, but the Bible is totally misogynistic. Passages X, Y, Z say that women are the property of men (you can google this!) , the Church doesn't allow women to be ordained priests... etc. etc. These reasons will be personal to you.

 

Don't hide your anger. Get it out in a positive way.

 

One doesn't have to necessarily be scathing to end this. Sometimes I am sure it is the way it goes but can't one also choose to eject themselves from teh situation and not go back to the source of the ill?

 

He doesn't need to take his anger out on anyone to get it out in a positive way and I disagree that it is the best way to vent ones anger. His father just needs to let his son have the same thing he has, a right to his views. Until that happens and his father grows up I myself would have nothing to do with him. Love is not guilting someone to your view poin, it is also not getting angry at someone simply because you don't like the way they respond to you. Self control has its merits. No reason to spew a bunch of anger just to be right when you can silently be right with the same outcome and less pain.

Yeah, a you have a totally valid viewpoint. As you can probably tell from my posts on this thread, its just not how I would personally go about things. I tried the silent method, but I found it didnt work for me... I just got more and more angry until it spilled over. I wanted to be heard, no matter what. That anger and my moms bewilderment were really driving a wedge in our relationship. The wedge is still there but its more clearly defined, which perversely has helped our relationship. We know what to avoid saying now I suppose. Anyhow, the more views the better... Im sure the OP will pick the method he feels is best.
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It sounds like you care too much about what your dad thinks. If you could learn to not give a shit, his opinions and remarks wouldn't bother you. Maybe you'd even consider them amusing.

 

When he said, "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you." a better response would've been, "Yep, because the Bible is crap anyway. Perhaps you should save your pity for someone who needs it, instead of wasting it on me". If it were said with a smile, it would be even better.

 

He's clearly insulting me because his feelings are hurt for whatever reason. You really think the right thing to do is to try to hurt them further? Having said that, maybe you're right and the answer really is to care less about how he feels about me -- not that I have the first clue how that's accomplished. 

 

 

The reason his feelings are hurt is because he is weak and insecure. If he can't learn to grow a thicker skin, then it's his problem, but it doesn't have to be yours.

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So you are upset that your dad is treating you with disrespect and then you are concerned about his feelings to be hurt? Sounds quite dysfunctional to me and pretty classic.

 

I would say, if who you are is hurting your dads feelings, there is some work he needs to do on his behalf. Because it has to do with him and not so much with you.

 

If it hurts you that he feels sorry for you, maybe you need to take a look on why this is. Are you seeking his approval to be a good son? Where you that good son when you still believed?

I hope it's not dysfunctional. I never felt responsible for his hurt feelings, so its not dysfunctional in that sense. I just addressed them because I thought they were the root cause of the insult.

 

I agree with you and crazyguy (edit: and gall) that this is completely his problem. Ensorcelled as he is, I'm not sure it's one he can solve.

 

I have been catching myself seeking that good son approval, yes. I'll realize it after the fact and I admit it has been confusing. Its unconscious behavior.

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One thing I have learned in my life is that that you cannot change people and that includes your own blood. You might be able to influence them a little, but you can never fully change a personality. They must do it themselves. They must see where they sabotage relationships and look at themselves in the mirror. It takes a big person to do this.

 

I feel the thing you might have to do is ask your heart how much pain this issue causes you ? If it causes a lot of pain, the best thing to do is back away slowly while showing respect. These are such tough situations. I've had to cut myself off from my own son because he causes me so much pain. It's a mother's worst heartbreak. These are such difficult decisions to have to make. Gut wrenching.

 

Good luck. I just try to treat everyone as fair as I can and with respect. It's the best any of us can do.

 

*Hug*

Thanks Margee. *hug*

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With a lot of Christians, they never consider counter arguements against Christianity

Unfortunately, this is the opposite of my dad. I would not be surprised to learn that he's thoroughly considered every such counter argument. What happens is that he thinks he's got all the right counter counter arguments. And since he's constantly surrounded at work by people who outright hate religion generally and especially Christianity, he's become firmly entrenched in a stubborn mental bunker that's half dubious apologetics and half victimhood complex (made worse by the fact that some of it is real).

 

Debating xtianity with him isn't a task I can spend effort on, ultimately. It's pointless.

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My mother once told me that she felt sorry for me living without christ in my life.  I told her that if she could only see her own life through the eyes of an outsider, she'd understand why I felt even more sorry for her.

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It sounds like you care too much about what your dad thinks. If you could learn to not give a shit, his opinions and remarks wouldn't bother you. Maybe you'd even consider them amusing.

 

When he said, "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you." a better response would've been, "Yep, because the Bible is crap anyway. Perhaps you should save your pity for someone who needs it, instead of wasting it on me". If it were said with a smile, it would be even better.

 

I disagree on both counts.

 

It's good to learn to not overreact, but do give a shit. Please give a shit. Keep caring about your relationship with your parents instead of becoming callous toward them. It's hard to give up on trying to control other people's feelings and opinions while still doing your best to communicate with them but it's worth it. Now, if the OP had said that his family constantly puts him down and invalidates his feelings, the boundaries he sets might be different. But it sounds like they have a good relationship in other areas. The OP wants his father to accept who he is, even though his beliefs are totally different and even opposed to his father's, right? Isn't that hypocritical unless he's also willing to accept his father for who he is? Or is being "right" more important?

 

I also think that an angry, sarcastic answer is a mistake. Is your goal to have the best comeback or to communicate? At this point, it sounds like there's a chance to acknowledge their disagreement, state clearly and firmly his position, and ask to move on. "It sounds like we'll both have to feel some sorrow for each other's beliefs, but I love you and appreciate you and want us to keep having a good relationship". If he becomes condescending, leave the conversation.

 

FWIW, I've been through all this with my own parents. Feeling bad, wanting to please them, being angry with them, feeling superior to them, not communicating with them, telling them "why I'm right and they're wrong", wishing I could do something to stop them from being disappointed, expressing anger at them... what I realized was that I don't want to be the kind of person who treats others with contempt.

 

It kind of amazes me in a board of ex-Christians how many advocate basically treating Christians like crap. Because I assume most people here used to be Christians. When you deconverted, was it because atheists were condescending to you and got sarcastic and dismissive with you? Anyone?

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Yeah, it was an atheist that was dismissive of my beliefs that helped crack my delusional christian faith.  He was nice about it, but that is because I was nice to him first.  If I had been a dick like the dad here, he would have probably been callous back.

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It sounds like you care too much about what your dad thinks. If you could learn to not give a shit, his opinions and remarks wouldn't bother you. Maybe you'd even consider them amusing.

 

When he said, "You chose to keep this crap over the bible? I feel sorry for you." a better response would've been, "Yep, because the Bible is crap anyway. Perhaps you should save your pity for someone who needs it, instead of wasting it on me". If it were said with a smile, it would be even better.

I disagree on both counts.

 

It's good to learn to not overreact, but do give a shit. Please give a shit. Keep caring about your relationship with your parents instead of becoming callous toward them. It's hard to give up on trying to control other people's feelings and opinions while still doing your best to communicate with them but it's worth it. Now, if the OP had said that his family constantly puts him down and invalidates his feelings, the boundaries he sets might be different. But it sounds like they have a good relationship in other areas. The OP wants his father to accept who he is, even though his beliefs are totally different and even opposed to his father's, right? Isn't that hypocritical unless he's also willing to accept his father for who he is? Or is being "right" more important?

 

I also think that an angry, sarcastic answer is a mistake. Is your goal to have the best comeback or to communicate? At this point, it sounds like there's a chance to acknowledge their disagreement, state clearly and firmly his position, and ask to move on. "It sounds like we'll both have to feel some sorrow for each other's beliefs, but I love you and appreciate you and want us to keep having a good relationship". If he becomes condescending, leave the conversation.

I tend to agree, which is why I didnt write an angry email. I've now ended up just saying that the problem was that it was a disrespectful thing to say.

 

Its an attractive idea to just care a little less, right, but I see what you're saying.

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It kind of amazes me in a board of ex-Christians how many advocate basically treating Christians like crap. Because I assume most people here used to be Christians. When you deconverted, was it because atheists were condescending to you and got sarcastic and dismissive with you? Anyone?

 

 

No its because when Christians deconvert, they face condescension, contempt and dismissal  from Christians.  What are you supposed to do when someone attacks your beliefs and belittles you?  Turn the other cheek?  Nope.  You slap them back.  Some Christians are totally deserving.  I for one am glad that militant atheists like Richard Dawkins take the approach they do.   

 

One of my Christian friends was really interested in my de-conversion and understood and accepted it as a step on my personal journey. She gets and gives friendly calls, sensible discussion, respect.  I'd be happy to see her any day of the week.

 

My mom on the other hand...

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You know, I was just thinking... maybe you can compose your thoughts and send him an email now about why you didn't take the bible. Don't talk about your feelings, most guys hate this. Concentrate on facts.

 

I ended up having to be vitriloic and scathing to my mom but its better to start off politely. Tell him about what you think is important now and how the Bible contradicts this... I believe that women should have equal rights, but the Bible is totally misogynistic. Passages X, Y, Z say that women are the property of men (you can google this!) , the Church doesn't allow women to be ordained priests... etc. etc. These reasons will be personal to you.

 

Don't hide your anger. Get it out in a positive way.

One doesn't have to necessarily be scathing to end this. Sometimes I am sure it is the way it goes but can't one also choose to eject themselves from teh situation and not go back to the source of the ill?

 

He doesn't need to take his anger out on anyone to get it out in a positive way and I disagree that it is the best way to vent ones anger. His father just needs to let his son have the same thing he has, a right to his views. Until that happens and his father grows up I myself would have nothing to do with him. Love is not guilting someone to your view poin, it is also not getting angry at someone simply because you don't like the way they respond to you. Self control has its merits. No reason to spew a bunch of anger just to be right when you can silently be right with the same outcome and less pain.

Yeah, a you have a totally valid viewpoint. As you can probably tell from my posts on this thread, its just not how I would personally go about things. I tried the silent method, but I found it didnt work for me... I just got more and more angry until it spilled over. I wanted to be heard, no matter what. That anger and my moms bewilderment were really driving a wedge in our relationship. The wedge is still there but its more clearly defined, which perversely has helped our relationship. We know what to avoid saying now I suppose. Anyhow, the more views the better... Im sure the OP will pick the method he feels is best.

 

 

He may and he may not, it remains to be seen.

 

Wanting to be heard by those not listening can be frustrating. I find that if I make myself the first person that i want to hear my words I care less about what others think of my words.

 

they have views you have views. That is the world. No reason we need to keep drawing lines in the sand. Even if that means not going around them anymore.

 

One should do what is healthy for them first. If it is honest and good then chances are that is what you will return to the others in the world hopefully.

 

Blood doesn't earn anyone anything if they treat you like water first. Just because they gave birth to a child does not give them any rights over the adult that child will become. if they choose to let their backwards views alienat their child only they are to blame.

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It kind of amazes me in a board of ex-Christians how many advocate basically treating Christians like crap. Because I assume most people here used to be Christians. When you deconverted, was it because atheists were condescending to you and got sarcastic and dismissive with you? Anyone?

 

 

No its because when Christians deconvert, they face condescension, contempt and dismissal  from Christians.  What are you supposed to do when someone attacks your beliefs and belittles you?  Turn the other cheek?  Nope.  You slap them back.  Some Christians are totally deserving.  I for one am glad that militant atheists like Richard Dawkins take the approach they do.   

 

One of my Christian friends was really interested in my de-conversion and understood and accepted it as a step on my personal journey. She gets and gives friendly calls, sensible discussion, respect.  I'd be happy to see her any day of the week.

 

My mom on the other hand...

 

You walk away and do the thing that they and their religion are apparently incapable of. You be the bigger person that they are trying to act like.

 

Militants will not return in the end the results that peaceful free thinking people would want. Not from either side of this argument. There are already enough hostile people in these debates all over the world. I for one am sick of hearing about violence and fear because of religion. Seriously wars over this shit have gone on for milleniums. When will it be enough?

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Too many Ex-Christians giving Christianly advice in this thread for my liking. I see the belief might be gone, but not the morality. Gosh, how will some of you ever get results? Anyway, this is getting off topic so I refrain from writing more... I might start another thread however... "How Christian Morality is terrible for getting real results".

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