Vigile Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yup, bo. Name one, just one voter , who has made their voice heard even 1% as much as I've made mine based on the activities I've described. You two live in a world of sound bites and platitudes. Voters don't achieve their goals as individuals, their strength is in numbers. If you don't vote against your enemy you are letting them win. haha and if you pray, God will answer you with a yes, no, or wait a while. That faith is some good stuff. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yup, bo. Name one, just one voter , who has made their voice heard even 1% as much as I've made mine based on the activities I've described. You two live in a world of sound bites and platitudes.Voters don't achieve their goals as individuals, their strength is in numbers. If you don't vote against your enemy you are letting them win. haha and if you pray, God will answer you with a yes, no, or wait a while. That faith is some good stuff. As long as you're happy to let people win that you don't agree with, fine, don't vote. Just don't complain about what the government does if you didn't try to stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinlostchild Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 free thinker if you were running for president, id vote for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yup, bo. Name one, just one voter , who has made their voice heard even 1% as much as I've made mine based on the activities I've described. You two live in a world of sound bites and platitudes. Voters don't achieve their goals as individuals, their strength is in numbers. If you don't vote against your enemy you are letting them win. haha and if you pray, God will answer you with a yes, no, or wait a while. That faith is some good stuff. As long as you're happy to let people win that you don't agree with, fine, don't vote. Just don't complain about what the government does if you didn't try to stop them. again, explain to me how one single voter has made their opinion heard even 1/1000 as loud as I've made mine and I'll ignore the fact that no voter without a pac behind him has no chance of influencing policy and just give you the win here for your effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinlostchild Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 besides I think in russia you don't vote very often right? it seems like its always the same old Putin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I live in russia, but I'm an American citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yup, bo. Name one, just one voter , who has made their voice heard even 1% as much as I've made mine based on the activities I've described. You two live in a world of sound bites and platitudes.Voters don't achieve their goals as individuals, their strength is in numbers. If you don't vote against your enemy you are letting them win. haha and if you pray, God will answer you with a yes, no, or wait a while. That faith is some good stuff. As long as you're happy to let people win that you don't agree with, fine, don't vote. Just don't complain about what the government does if you didn't try to stop them. again, explain to me how one single voter has made their opinion heard even 1/1000 as loud as I've made mine and I'll ignore the fact that no voter without a pac behind him has no chance of influencing policy and just give you the win here for your effort. And you say I'm logically challenged, lol. In an election, they count the number of votes for each candidate, and the one with the most votes wins. The goal (for me anyway) is to stop the candidate who is likely to do the things I disagree with. Like avoiding the proper resourcing of health care, education, law enforcement etc, and implementing repressive laws about important social issues like maintaining access to safe, legal abortion, and marriage equality and so on. Every vote counts towards the total that decides who will be in government, implementing their plan. Not voting is a decision that contributes to the result one way or another. I don't want to contribute to conservatives being in power, even though I only have one vote. If you're not going to vote you may as well vote for your opposition, its the same thing. And anyway, so you got to express your opinion slightly louder because you had access as a lobbyist and you helped lead a protest movement. (It's not like you're the only person here to have done that either) What measurable difference did your efforts make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 2, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 2, 2014 FTNZ, in the US all viable candidates, particularly at the national level, follow the same path once elected regardless of their pre-election rhetoric. The latest example is Obama continuing and expanding policies instituted while Bush was in office, which in turn built on and continued policies from previous administrations both Democrat and Republican. The vote here is truly meaningless save to decide who gets the privilege of implementing the desires of the military-industrial complex. Again, all rhetoric coming from the candidates and parties are lies meant to sway certain target groups of voters. Even then, there are irregularities at the polls, so who knows what's really going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yup, bo. Name one, just one voter , who has made their voice heard even 1% as much as I've made mine based on the activities I've described. You two live in a world of sound bites and platitudes. Voters don't achieve their goals as individuals, their strength is in numbers. If you don't vote against your enemy you are letting them win. haha and if you pray, God will answer you with a yes, no, or wait a while. That faith is some good stuff. As long as you're happy to let people win that you don't agree with, fine, don't vote. Just don't complain about what the government does if you didn't try to stop them. again, explain to me how one single voter has made their opinion heard even 1/1000 as loud as I've made mine and I'll ignore the fact that no voter without a pac behind him has no chance of influencing policy and just give you the win here for your effort. And you say I'm logically challenged, lol. In an election, they count the number of votes for each candidate, and the one with the most votes wins. The goal (for me anyway) is to stop the candidate who is likely to do the things I disagree with. Like avoiding the proper resourcing of health care, education, law enforcement etc, and implementing repressive laws about important social issues like maintaining access to safe, legal abortion, and marriage equality and so on. Every vote counts towards the total that decides who will be in government, implementing their plan. Not voting is a decision that contributes to the result one way or another. I don't want to contribute to conservatives being in power, even though I only have one vote. If you're not going to vote you may as well vote for your opposition, its the same thing. And anyway, so you got to express your opinion slightly louder because you had access as a lobbyist and you helped lead a protest movement. (It's not like you're the only person here to have done that either) What measurable difference did your efforts make? Indeed. Enter that vote for one of the hand picked politicians you were so nicely offered and wash your hands feeling you've done your duty as a good citizen. Silly me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 FTNZ, in the US all viable candidates, particularly at the national level, follow the same path once elected regardless of their pre-election rhetoric. The latest example is Obama continuing and expanding policies instituted while Bush was in office, which in turn built on and continued policies from previous administrations both Democrat and Republican. The vote here is truly meaningless save to decide who gets the privilege of implementing the desires of the military-industrial complex. Again, all rhetoric coming from the candidates and parties are lies meant to sway certain target groups of voters. Even then, there are irregularities at the polls, so who knows what's really going on. My main area of interest is domestic rather than foreign policy, and social policy in particular. In this area, there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans. In fact I would say that the Democrats are not socialist enough for me but I would still vote for them until the religious right no longer control the Republicans. Perhaps something Americans could do is campaign for proportional representation. It has worked well in NZ for nearly 20 years and longer in many European countries. It does give minor parties a chance and coalition government seems to keep the major parties on their toes more. Also, campaign finance reform would help IMO. Obviously continuing to fix the voting irregularities is a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 2, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 2, 2014 Again, rhetoric means nothing. The winners throw an occasional bone to their constituency, that is all. Obviously we need proper, fair representation and campaign reform and all politicians will say so. For my entire life, they have been saying that. We know what should be but voters haven't the power to change anything other than this local tax or that local judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 2, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 2, 2014 FTNZ, in the US all viable candidates, particularly at the national level, follow the same path once elected regardless of their pre-election rhetoric. The latest example is Obama continuing and expanding policies instituted while Bush was in office, which in turn built on and continued policies from previous administrations both Democrat and Republican. The vote here is truly meaningless save to decide who gets the privilege of implementing the desires of the military-industrial complex. Again, all rhetoric coming from the candidates and parties are lies meant to sway certain target groups of voters. Even then, there are irregularities at the polls, so who knows what's really going on. My main area of interest is domestic rather than foreign policy, and social policy in particular. In this area, there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans. In fact I would say that the Democrats are not socialist enough for me but I would still vote for them until the religious right no longer control the Republicans. Perhaps something Americans could do is campaign for proportional representation. It has worked well in NZ for nearly 20 years and longer in many European countries. It does give minor parties a chance and coalition government seems to keep the major parties on their toes more. Also, campaign finance reform would help IMO. Obviously continuing to fix the voting irregularities is a must. Although there are differences between Democrats and Republicans in theory, there is no difference between them in practice. This, I think, is the point florduh is trying to make. Voting here in America is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It really doesn't matter which one you shoot; the outcome is the same. With that said, I have felt since my early 20s that a multi-party system would work much better for the interests of the private citizen than a system with only two parties which disagree in word only. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 FTNZ, in the US all viable candidates, particularly at the national level, follow the same path once elected regardless of their pre-election rhetoric. The latest example is Obama continuing and expanding policies instituted while Bush was in office, which in turn built on and continued policies from previous administrations both Democrat and Republican. The vote here is truly meaningless save to decide who gets the privilege of implementing the desires of the military-industrial complex. Again, all rhetoric coming from the candidates and parties are lies meant to sway certain target groups of voters. Even then, there are irregularities at the polls, so who knows what's really going on. My main area of interest is domestic rather than foreign policy, and social policy in particular. In this area, there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans. In fact I would say that the Democrats are not socialist enough for me but I would still vote for them until the religious right no longer control the Republicans. Perhaps something Americans could do is campaign for proportional representation. It has worked well in NZ for nearly 20 years and longer in many European countries. It does give minor parties a chance and coalition government seems to keep the major parties on their toes more. Also, campaign finance reform would help IMO. Obviously continuing to fix the voting irregularities is a must. Although there are differences between Democrats and Republicans in theory, there is no difference between them in practice. This, I think, is the point florduh is trying to make. Voting here in America is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It really doesn't matter which one you shoot; the outcome is the same. With that said, I have felt since my early 20s that a multi-party system would work much better for the interests of the private citizen than a system with only two parties which disagree in word only. There is no money in reforming our electoral system, so it will never happen. Those who do not live in America fail to realize our country is held captive by Free-For-All Capitalists in which profit margins are the sole determining factor in everything. They have everything under control at this point, and they make the laws, so they will not change a thing because everything works great...for them. We are the Corporate States of America, money is the only thing that motivates our politicians. They don't give a shit about anything else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 2, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 2, 2014 FTNZ, in the US all viable candidates, particularly at the national level, follow the same path once elected regardless of their pre-election rhetoric. The latest example is Obama continuing and expanding policies instituted while Bush was in office, which in turn built on and continued policies from previous administrations both Democrat and Republican. The vote here is truly meaningless save to decide who gets the privilege of implementing the desires of the military-industrial complex. Again, all rhetoric coming from the candidates and parties are lies meant to sway certain target groups of voters. Even then, there are irregularities at the polls, so who knows what's really going on. My main area of interest is domestic rather than foreign policy, and social policy in particular. In this area, there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans. In fact I would say that the Democrats are not socialist enough for me but I would still vote for them until the religious right no longer control the Republicans. Perhaps something Americans could do is campaign for proportional representation. It has worked well in NZ for nearly 20 years and longer in many European countries. It does give minor parties a chance and coalition government seems to keep the major parties on their toes more. Also, campaign finance reform would help IMO. Obviously continuing to fix the voting irregularities is a must. Although there are differences between Democrats and Republicans in theory, there is no difference between them in practice. This, I think, is the point florduh is trying to make. Voting here in America is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It really doesn't matter which one you shoot; the outcome is the same. With that said, I have felt since my early 20s that a multi-party system would work much better for the interests of the private citizen than a system with only two parties which disagree in word only. There is no money in reforming our electoral system, so it will never happen. Those who do not live in America fail to realize our country is held captive by Free-For-All Capitalists in which profit margins are the sole determining factor in everything. They have everything under control at this point, and they make the laws, so they will not change a thing because everything works great...for them. We are the Corporate States of America, money is the only thing that motivates our politicians. They don't give a shit about anything else... Quoted for truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 FTNZ, in the US all viable candidates, particularly at the national level, follow the same path once elected regardless of their pre-election rhetoric. The latest example is Obama continuing and expanding policies instituted while Bush was in office, which in turn built on and continued policies from previous administrations both Democrat and Republican. The vote here is truly meaningless save to decide who gets the privilege of implementing the desires of the military-industrial complex. Again, all rhetoric coming from the candidates and parties are lies meant to sway certain target groups of voters. Even then, there are irregularities at the polls, so who knows what's really going on. My main area of interest is domestic rather than foreign policy, and social policy in particular. In this area, there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans. In fact I would say that the Democrats are not socialist enough for me but I would still vote for them until the religious right no longer control the Republicans. Perhaps something Americans could do is campaign for proportional representation. It has worked well in NZ for nearly 20 years and longer in many European countries. It does give minor parties a chance and coalition government seems to keep the major parties on their toes more. Also, campaign finance reform would help IMO. Obviously continuing to fix the voting irregularities is a must. Although there are differences between Democrats and Republicans in theory, there is no difference between them in practice. This, I think, is the point florduh is trying to make. Voting here in America is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It really doesn't matter which one you shoot; the outcome is the same. With that said, I have felt since my early 20s that a multi-party system would work much better for the interests of the private citizen than a system with only two parties which disagree in word only. There is no money in reforming our electoral system, so it will never happen. Those who do not live in America fail to realize our country is held captive by Free-For-All Capitalists in which profit margins are the sole determining factor in everything. They have everything under control at this point, and they make the laws, so they will not change a thing because everything works great...for them. We are the Corporate States of America, money is the only thing that motivates our politicians. They don't give a shit about anything else... And even the media is locked up, so anyone who thinks for them self will be drowned in a sea of easily manipulated low info voters. Acknowledging this doesn't mean you are throwing away your voice, it means you're paying attention. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm getting a bit tired of reading this Those who do not live in America fail to realize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinlostchild Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Http://www.salon.com/2014/05/01/bill_clintons_primary_lesson_what_its_the_economy_stupid_means_in_2016/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 2, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm getting a bit tired of reading this Those who do not live in America fail to realize Sorry, but repeatedly saying, "NZ does this and so should you" isn't very productive. I'm sure your history and daily experience will never be fully understood by me looking in from the outside. That sentiment goes both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm getting a bit tired of reading this Those who do not live in America fail to realize Sorry, but repeatedly saying, "NZ does this and so should you" isn't very productive. I'm sure your history and daily experience will never be fully understood by me looking in from the outside. That sentiment goes both ways. Just giving you examples of how things are done in other places. There are a lot of complaints about the US here so of course people elsewhere are going to wonder why things are the way they are. I feel sorry for you guys most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Nz has less than 5 million people. That's a mid sized state in the us. Surely we can find states in the us that have created government and policies much to the liking of the average new zealander. The us, meanwhile, is the third largest country in the world. It is also arguably the most ethnically and perhaps economically diverse nations on the planet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm getting a bit tired of reading this Those who do not live in America fail to realize Sorry, but repeatedly saying, "NZ does this and so should you" isn't very productive. I'm sure your history and daily experience will never be fully understood by me looking in from the outside. That sentiment goes both ways. Perhaps a better choice of words would have been "many people don't realize", as there are a lot of people in America who still believe the mythology taught in elementary school without questioning it. I spent a short time working on a cruise ship a few years ago, and I met a lot of people from so many different countries and I was surprised most everyone had an Emerald City on a Hill idea of America. I used that opportunity to ask as many people as I could about their health care system, political system, practices, race relations, etc. and they were shocked at some of the things we are told about things like socialized health care. They all seemed surprised at the picture I was painting of life and politics here. What filters out to other countries is different from what is actually happens here, as I am sure happens in reverse with us. It seems everyone world round is taught the American foundation myths, but unless you live inside it and are paying attention, there is not much opportunity to see through the bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I no longer care to vote. So I just let my wife fill out my absentee ballot however she likes. I sign it and that's that. I think it's a waste of time but she seems to enjoy it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 2, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 2, 2014 My wife certainly became very disillusioned with The American DreamTM and it didn't take her too long either. She quickly realized that this simply is not the land of freedom and liberty she had been told about. In some ways her life here is better than it was in Ukraine; but she'd gladly go back if she could, and I'd be only too happy to go with her. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernweh Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm getting a bit tired of reading this Those who do not live in America fail to realize Let me explain this to you. I live in Oklahoma. We have seven electoral votes that count for President of the United States. In the electoral college that's not enough to matter under any current calculus that's used to determine the magic number of 270 electoral votes FTW. Now, I'm a Democrat living in the reddest of the red states. Oklahoma carries Republicans 3 to 1 in every single type of election. My vote for POTUS means jack squat in the US of A before we even get into the minor policy differences between our parties. My vote will not influence Oklahoma's electors and Oklahoma electors will not influence the outcome of the Electoral College. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 People in the US are hardly in a position to criticise the UK for messing up dozens of other countries. because we have such a say over our government's actions? I'd say people in the us military, since they volunteered, don't have much they can say, but the rest of us have every right to express our moral indignation without being accused of hypocrisy. Do you vote? Doesn't make a difference. We only have two parties with any power so we have to choose the lesser of two evils. All too often there is no real difference between our candidates except window dressing. Different candidates will pander to various special interest groups but none of them will offer a moral high ground in our policies. Besides the candidate who spends the most money wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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