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Independence Day Fun Times


Roz
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Hi guys, gals, and alien lifeforms who reproduce asexually,

 

How's everyone's ID wknd?  Mine's going great.  Got a letter from the head elder of my old church.  Mind you, this is that old elder who's seen as a father figure for all the members.  He's a guy I looked up to as a kid, who I respect now, and who I can't call by his first name just out of respect for him. 

 

Anyways, here's an excerpt of what he wrote to me:

 

"If you study the history of the people of Amalek or the Amalekites, they were a people who attacked God’s people as they were leaving Egypt and destroyed all of the aged, the young children and the women at the back of the group of Israelites who were fleeing from Egypt. God gave them many, many years to repent and change their ways but they were still bent on destroying the nation of Israel. God finally told Israel to destroy them before they could destroy the nation of Israel.

 

God has no desire to see anyone die but at times He has acted to protect His people from annihilation.

 

I think if you study out the question of slavery in the Bible you will find a difference between “man-stealing” or slavery as we know it, and an “indentured servant” who has sold himself for a number of years of service to pay off a debt. Also in cases of military conquest, where other people would simply kill all of the captives, the Israelites allowed them to serve them rather than to kill them."

 

In Isaiah 55:8, 9, God says, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

 

1.  Genocide excuses genocide? 

2.  Slavery not like modern slavery eh...

 

My reply:

With respect Mr. (blank), you didn't address the issues.  I remember hearing you preach about having the courage of Daniel, of Paul, etc.  What would we do if we were in that situation? 

If I were living as an Israelite in those olden days, and the command was given to kill everyone (Num 31, 1 Sam 15, etc.) I cannot do it.  Not even by divine command.  I would rather, at judgment day, face my (deceased loved ones) one last time before being shot by firing squad.  I cannot kill children, I cannot kill the old, I cannot kill the infirm, I cannot kill after the battle. 

Secondly, Lev. 25 clearly states the difference between a citizen (Hebrew) male, a citizen female, and a non-citizen person or the child of the non-citizen person.  If you read Lev. 25 in its entirety you will see that Hebrew men can only be enslaved for a number of years, but non-citizens are for life.  Also, it states that "you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."  Clear, unambiguous statements. 

I would rather die, I would rather face hell, I would rather be annihilated than obey these things.  Thanks for inquiring about me, I am OK.

 

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You are not going to get logic from him.  He serves God rather than logic.

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Nah, but he's someone I respected and the only way I can show my respect to him is by presenting my side clearly.

 

It did strike me funny that he used the same type of language that all other christians do.  "If you study x..."  "If you study y..."

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More fun times, as if I didn't get my fill during July 4th wknd being surrounded by fundies.

 

Elder:

I have some good news though. You are not being asked to kill anyone or do anything unkind to anyone. There is no indication in the Bible or SOP writings about the time of the end that you ever will be asked to do anything like that.
---At some point in history, if the bible is true and historically accurate, then the order was given to men to kill young boys, kill women who've had sex, and take the virgin girls for themselves.  In 1 Sam. they were also told to kill infants. 
---Will I obey those orders?  You and others have preached about what would happen if we were in Daniel's shoes, in Job's shoes, etc.  Then this is also in play.  I will NOT obey those orders.  I will gladly die to defend those people.

 

Elder:
I have the general feeling by your communication that you are not so much in the camp of believing that there is no God as in the camp of being disappointed by finding a God that you don’t like or approve of.
---I admit that reading Lev 25 and Num 31 were the beginning of doubt, but through the decade long research I found writings of Ellen White that just are not factually true.  They are blatant lies.  SOP's out.  Then comes the evidence contradicting the Exodus, YEC, the numerous voting-by-committee to piece together the bible, etc.  I've not even listen everything, but yes, in the end, if christianity (in particular Adventism) is true, I will gladly stand and be executed than serve a slaver, a child murderer, and a child molester.

Mr. (Smith), I'm sorry if this is less than civil.  You were, as I've stated before, one of the influential adults in my childhood.  The honor and sense of morality you and others gave me back then are still cherished today.

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Elder:

"I have the general feeling by your communication that you are not so much in the camp of believing that there is no God as in the camp of being disappointed by finding a God that you don’t like or approve of."

 

So presumably believers are not disappointed in a murderous, yet vague deity who kills, enjoys planetary waterboarding, sends strong delusions and authors a book containing riddles, ghosts, witches and magical fruit..........perhaps they like and approve of Him

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...

Elder:

I have the general feeling by your communication that you are not so much in the camp of believing that there is no God as in the camp of being disappointed by finding a God that you don’t like or approve of.

---I admit that reading Lev 25 and Num 31 were the beginning of doubt, but through the decade long research I found writings of Ellen White that just are not factually true.  They are blatant lies.  SOP's out.  Then comes the evidence contradicting the Exodus, YEC, the numerous voting-by-committee to piece together the bible, etc.  I've not even listen everything, but yes, in the end, if christianity (in particular Adventism) is true, I will gladly stand and be executed than serve a slaver, a child murderer, and a child molester.

 

Mr. (Smith), I'm sorry if this is less than civil.  You were, as I've stated before, one of the influential adults in my childhood.  The honor and sense of morality you and others gave me back then are still cherished today.

  Good response.  However, I would not let this "feeling" of his go without a direct response:

 

"I have the general feeling by your communication that you are not so much in the camp of believing that there is no God as in the camp of being disappointed by finding a God that you don’t like or approve of."

 

A possible response could be:

 

"A false dichotomy.  I could be in neither camp, I could be in one or the other, or I could be in both camps.  Of course, there are several other camps that you did not mention.  I could be in one or more of those, etc.  Regardless, what "camp" I may, or may not, be in is quite irrelevant to the prior discourse."

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Hi guys, gals, and alien lifeforms who reproduce asexually,

 

How's everyone's ID wknd?  Mine's going great.  Got a letter from the head elder of my old church.  Mind you, this is that old elder who's seen as a father figure for all the members.  He's a guy I looked up to as a kid, who I respect now, and who I can't call by his first name just out of respect for him. 

 

Anyways, here's an excerpt of what he wrote to me:

 

"If you study the history of the people of Amalek or the Amalekites, they were a people who attacked God’s people as they were leaving Egypt and destroyed all of the aged, the young children and the women at the back of the group of Israelites who were fleeing from Egypt. God gave them many, many years to repent and change their ways but they were still bent on destroying the nation of Israel. God finally told Israel to destroy them before they could destroy the nation of Israel.

 

God has no desire to see anyone die but at times He has acted to protect His people from annihilation.

 

I think if you study out the question of slavery in the Bible you will find a difference between “man-stealing” or slavery as we know it, and an “indentured servant” who has sold himself for a number of years of service to pay off a debt. Also in cases of military conquest, where other people would simply kill all of the captives, the Israelites allowed them to serve them rather than to kill them."

 

In Isaiah 55:8, 9, God says, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

 

1.  Genocide excuses genocide? 

2.  Slavery not like modern slavery eh...

 

My reply:

With respect Mr. (blank), you didn't address the issues.  I remember hearing you preach about having the courage of Daniel, of Paul, etc.  What would we do if we were in that situation? 

 

If I were living as an Israelite in those olden days, and the command was given to kill everyone (Num 31, 1 Sam 15, etc.) I cannot do it.  Not even by divine command.  I would rather, at judgment day, face my (deceased loved ones) one last time before being shot by firing squad.  I cannot kill children, I cannot kill the old, I cannot kill the infirm, I cannot kill after the battle. 

 

Secondly, Lev. 25 clearly states the difference between a citizen (Hebrew) male, a citizen female, and a non-citizen person or the child of the non-citizen person.  If you read Lev. 25 in its entirety you will see that Hebrew men can only be enslaved for a number of years, but non-citizens are for life.  Also, it states that "you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."  Clear, unambiguous statements. 

 

I would rather die, I would rather face hell, I would rather be annihilated than obey these things.  Thanks for inquiring about me, I am OK.

 

I honestly cannot believe you have respect for someone that would treat you with so little.

 

he apparently thinks he knows best or "god" and uses that to basically try and convinve you of some hypocricy... I would ignore him and never speak with him again.

 

he is not on your side if that is what he wrote. Sounds like he is nothing but excuses just like his book.

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