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5 Discoveries Christians Should Fear.


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1.  The discovery of past or present life on another planet in our solar system.

This would prove that life is not a supernatural creation, but arises wherever the right conditions prevail.  Genesis will be falsified.

 

2.  The discovery of intelligent life on the planet of another star.

This would prove that humans were not the supernatural creations of a god, but simply one of many types of life in the universe.  Again, Genesis will be falsified.

 

3.  The confirmation that we do indeed inhabit any kind (level) of multiverse.

Level 1 is finite in time, but infinite in space.  

Level 2 is infinite in time and space.

Level 3 is like 2, but with an infinity of parallel universes coexisting with each other.

Level 4 is the combination of levels 1 thru 3, in every possible combination.

Any kind of physical infinity immediately and totally destroys Christianity.  In an infinite universe, any event that has a non-zero possibility of occurring will occur an infinite number of times.  In an infinite universe, Christ is crucified not just once, but an infinite number of times, rendering his sacrifice... meaningless.

 

4. The confirmation of quantum gravity.

This would kill off any possibility of an initial singularity and so kill off William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument.

 

5. The discovery of a genetic method of 'switching off' religious belief.

If Christians don't fear this, they should opt to have the treatment - because it can't hurt them, can it?  

If they do fear it, then that's a tacit admission on their part that their faith is a purely biological and material thing and that they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

p.s.

Please feel free to add # 6 or more!

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6. Laboratory experiments that result in life (rna or dna.. as long as it's self-replicating and isolated from naturally occurring types), from chemistry.

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1.  The discovery of past or present life on another planet in our solar system.

This would prove that life is not a supernatural creation, but arises wherever the right conditions prevail.  Genesis will be falsified.

 

It would not "prove" life is not of supernatural origin.  It would certainly be evidence that life has arisen in more than one place in the Cosmos, and not in only one place.  What part of Genesis would be falsified?

 

2.  The discovery of intelligent life on the planet of another star.

This would prove that humans were not the supernatural creations of a god, but simply one of many types of life in the universe.  Again, Genesis will be falsified.

 
Again, not "proof" that "humans were not supernatural creations of a god".  Agree it would be evidence of other life on that particular planet (or planets if more than one).  Again, what part of Genesis would be falsified?

3.  The confirmation that we do indeed inhabit any kind (level) of multiverse.

Level 1 is finite in time, but infinite in space.  

Level 2 is infinite in time and space.

Level 3 is like 2, but with an infinity of parallel universes coexisting with each other.

Level 4 is the combination of levels 1 thru 3, in every possible combination.

Any kind of physical infinity immediately and totally destroys Christianity.  In an infinite universe, any event that has a non-zero possibility of occurring will occur an infinite number of times.  In an infinite universe, Christ is crucified not just once, but an infinite number of times, rendering his sacrifice... meaningless.

 

 
Does Christianity predict a lack of physical infinity?  Whether something is meaningless is a personal opinion that may not apply to other folks.
 

4. The confirmation of quantum gravity.

This would kill off any possibility of an initial singularity and so kill off William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument.

 

Agreed.  WLC's KCA argument has already been "killed off" for numerous other reasons.

 

 

5. The discovery of a genetic method of 'switching off' religious belief.

If Christians don't fear this, they should opt to have the treatment - because it can't hurt them, can it?  

If they do fear it, then that's a tacit admission on their part that their faith is a purely biological and material thing and that they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls.

 

Whether Christians "fear" it or not, they may wish to keep it.  I fail to see how your conclusion "they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls" follows from anything you previously said here.

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Biology, Cosmology and Geology alone have already discredited biblical theism tremendously.  Unfortunately most fundies just ignore rational data.

 

I for one don't need any proof of something not existing, just like I don't need any discoveries to know that spiderman doesn't exist.

 

The theists are the ones that need to prove their non-existent, fictional god, for which there is absolutely zero evidence so far.

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Ah, but science is a materialistic and materialism is the antithesis of all belief. God is immaterial, and that is precisely why no coherent logical arguments will ever prove nor disprove God and His Holy Word in the Christian-o-sphere.

 

Amongst the nonbelieving, logic is accepted and the more coherent the argument, the better. Not so amongst the believing. Worse yet, some of the believing use science as a defense. Their science is highly suspect, relying upon design and infinity and other concepts that are either here nor there. All science is ultimately faith to the believing, or will be made into such if it clings to the believer's mentality for too long. Don't forget, God created science and maths just as sure as he designed the female body to give birth and the snake to walk on legs....(wait, what?)

 

  • I think that the ascent of machnes (robotics, nanotechnology, integrated systems within the human body) will be the death knell of fundamentalist belief. There is already quite the resistance to things like RFID chips, GPS tracking, Facebook data mining, biometric scanning and Google glass in some communities of faith. (I am truly speaking of my own former community of faith, within which there have been discussions about such things in the past.) If the original design is flawed and can be improved upon, we will see the end of asinine arguments of inherent creation and divine plans. If the lame can walk without God's blessing, if the blind can see without God's spit...what a world it will be. Of course, these things would need to be widespread to make a big difference.

 

  • The spread of the internet and literacy are two of  the greatest threats to faith. If the world is connected and literate, then people may actually read the Bible. Once they read it, they will discover the horrors within and may choose not to serve such a petty and terrifying "lord". The discovery of ways to cheaply and reliably connect the world to vast array of materials in their native languages will surely spell the end of faith in many corners of the world. I hope that I see this day within my lifetime.

 

  • Male birth control. So much of the church is based around women's reproductive systems. Maintaining those hymens, restricting access until marriage, fertility cycles, the place of women in the home, and so on. Most, if not all, of the arguments in this arena would be silenced by the development of a male form of birth control that was safe and effective and long-lasting. Not to bash men and their sex drives, but it takes two create that magical spark of life within a woman's uterus, does it not? So why does the church insist upon shaming women for having sex, using birth control, or having an abortion? I hope in the future that these things are relics of the past and that we can instead have widespread and reliable birth control for both sexes.

 

  • The discovery of DMT aka "The God Molecule". If more people knew about DMT, we could all get closer to God...and we'd all see that God is really in our heads and not some force outside of us.

 

That's all for now.

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1.  The discovery of past or present life on another planet in our solar system.

This would prove that life is not a supernatural creation, but arises wherever the right conditions prevail.  Genesis will be falsified.

 

It would not "prove" life is not of supernatural origin.  It would certainly be evidence that life has arisen in more than one place in the Cosmos, and not in only one place.  What part of Genesis would be falsified?

 

#1 is specifically targeted at those Theistic Evolutionist Christians who hold that while the universe was intelligently designed to support life, it was not designed for life to originate spontaneously from it's raw materials.  They believe that life only exists on Earth and needed the supernatural intervention of God to get started.  Thus, if life were found elsewhere in the cosmos, this would invalidate their 'Earth only' position, which takes it's cue from Genesis.

 

2.  The discovery of intelligent life on the planet of another star.

This would prove that humans were not the supernatural creations of a god, but simply one of many types of life in the universe.  Again, Genesis will be falsified.

 
Again, not "proof" that "humans were not supernatural creations of a god".  Agree it would be evidence of other life on that particular planet (or planets if more than one).  Again, what part of Genesis would be falsified?
 
Please see my above response.

3.  The confirmation that we do indeed inhabit any kind (level) of multiverse.

Level 1 is finite in time, but infinite in space.  

Level 2 is infinite in time and space.

Level 3 is like 2, but with an infinity of parallel universes coexisting with each other.

Level 4 is the combination of levels 1 thru 3, in every possible combination.

Any kind of physical infinity immediately and totally destroys Christianity.  In an infinite universe, any event that has a non-zero possibility of occurring will occur an infinite number of times.  In an infinite universe, Christ is crucified not just once, but an infinite number of times, rendering his sacrifice... meaningless.

 

 
Does Christianity predict a lack of physical infinity?  Whether something is meaningless is a personal opinion that may not apply to other folks.
 
As I understand it sdelsolray, nothing is impossible for the Christian God.
So, while some Christians say that only the immaterial, spiritual God is infinite and nothing physical can therefore be infinite, others will no doubt say that God is not limited to any human logic and can create an infinity of physical infinities, if he wants to.
 
Anyway, a physical infinity causes the Infinite Replication Paradox.  
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philosophy/afterlife-under-physicalism-t21843.html (Please see the quote by Teuton.)  Thus an infinite number of Earths require an infinite number of Messiahs to be crucified an infinite number of times.  Should God confine himself to being crucified just once, here on this Earth, then he condemns the inhabitants of an infinite number of other Earths to certain hellfire.  If God acts fairly and justly, he's therefore obliged to sacrifice himself to himself ad infinitum.  If God doesn't act, then he's the unjust savior of only one Earth in an infinity of identical, but doomed Earths... which doesn't seem very God-like or meaningful to me.  But as you say, some folks might still choose to find either option meaningful.  That's their choice.

4. The confirmation of quantum gravity.

This would kill off any possibility of an initial singularity and so kill off William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument.

 

Agreed.  WLC's KCA argument has already been "killed off" for numerous other reasons.

 

Agree.

But like a zombie from a bad B-movie, the KCA just keeps coming back to 'life'.  I'd hope that quantum gravity would be the magic bullet that slays it for good.  wink.png

 

5. The discovery of a genetic method of 'switching off' religious belief.

If Christians don't fear this, they should opt to have the treatment - because it can't hurt them, can it?  

If they do fear it, then that's a tacit admission on their part that their faith is a purely biological and material thing and that they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls.

 

Whether Christians "fear" it or not, they may wish to keep it.  I fail to see how your conclusion "they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls" follows from anything you previously said here.

 

 

Some Christians wish to keep the Earth at the center of the solar system.  So be it.

 

My conclusion is (tentatively) based on the Christian duality of the body and the spirit, as first described in Adam's creation. Faith and belief are considered to be spiritual qualities of a person's spirit, not something that originates in their physical bodies.  Which is why our immortal spirits will be clothed in new flesh on the Last Day.  Or putting it another way, Christians are told to think of themselves as treasures in jars of clay.  The treasure is their born-again spirit and their jar of clay is their physical body.  The former can never perish, but the latter can.  When a person's physical body perishes, their spirit lives on... unaffected by anything physical. 

 

Therefore, if a purely physical method of permanently switching off a person's belief is found, that will change things completely.  Since faith is a spiritual condition, how can it be affected by any physical changes in a person's body?  Now, I don't mean that what we experience via our bodies has no effect on our spirits.  No.  What I'm driving at is more like this.  No matter how hard a surgeon looks, he can't cut out a person's soul/spirit.  There's no 'spiritual' organ in the body that's a physical receptacle for their 'soul'.  So, even if that person undergoes an experience that makes them believe or makes them stop believing - that's not the same as a direct physical intervention in their spirit or soul.

 

Therefore, if a genetic method is found of 'shutting down' their faith, I contend that this will be exactly that kind of physical intervention that shows the Christian spirit/body duality to be wrong.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

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You underestimate the creative stupidity of apologists. bill

 

Or did he mis-underestimate the creative stupidity of apologists?  wink.png

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1.  The discovery of past or present life on another planet in our solar system.

This would prove that life is not a supernatural creation, but arises wherever the right conditions prevail.  Genesis will be falsified.

 

It would not "prove" life is not of supernatural origin.  It would certainly be evidence that life has arisen in more than one place in the Cosmos, and not in only one place.  What part of Genesis would be falsified?

 

#1 is specifically targeted at those Theistic Evolutionist Christians who hold that while the universe was intelligently designed to support life, it was not designed for life to originate spontaneously from it's raw materials.  They believe that life only exists on Earth and needed the supernatural intervention of God to get started.  Thus, if life were found elsewhere in the cosmos, this would invalidate their 'Earth only' position, which takes it's cue from Genesis.

 

2.  The discovery of intelligent life on the planet of another star.

This would prove that humans were not the supernatural creations of a god, but simply one of many types of life in the universe.  Again, Genesis will be falsified.

 
Again, not "proof" that "humans were not supernatural creations of a god".  Agree it would be evidence of other life on that particular planet (or planets if more than one).  Again, what part of Genesis would be falsified?
 
Please see my above response.

3.  The confirmation that we do indeed inhabit any kind (level) of multiverse.

Level 1 is finite in time, but infinite in space.  

Level 2 is infinite in time and space.

Level 3 is like 2, but with an infinity of parallel universes coexisting with each other.

Level 4 is the combination of levels 1 thru 3, in every possible combination.

Any kind of physical infinity immediately and totally destroys Christianity.  In an infinite universe, any event that has a non-zero possibility of occurring will occur an infinite number of times.  In an infinite universe, Christ is crucified not just once, but an infinite number of times, rendering his sacrifice... meaningless.

 

 
Does Christianity predict a lack of physical infinity?  Whether something is meaningless is a personal opinion that may not apply to other folks.
 
As I understand it sdelsolray, nothing is impossible for the Christian God.
So, while some Christians say that only the immaterial, spiritual God is infinite and nothing physical can therefore be infinite, others will no doubt say that God is not limited to any human logic and can create an infinity of physical infinities, if he wants to.
 
Anyway, a physical infinity causes the Infinite Replication Paradox.  
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philosophy/afterlife-under-physicalism-t21843.html (Please see the quote by Teuton.)  Thus an infinite number of Earths require an infinite number of Messiahs to be crucified an infinite number of times.  Should God confine himself to being crucified just once, here on this Earth, then he condemns the inhabitants of an infinite number of other Earths to certain hellfire.  If God acts fairly and justly, he's therefore obliged to sacrifice himself to himself ad infinitum.  If God doesn't act, then he's the unjust savior of only one Earth in an infinity of identical, but doomed Earths... which doesn't seem very God-like or meaningful to me.  But as you say, some folks might still choose to find either option meaningful.  That's their choice.

4. The confirmation of quantum gravity.

This would kill off any possibility of an initial singularity and so kill off William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument.

 

Agreed.  WLC's KCA argument has already been "killed off" for numerous other reasons.

 

Agree.

But like a zombie from a bad B-movie, the KCA just keeps coming back to 'life'.  I'd hope that quantum gravity would be the magic bullet that slays it for good.  wink.png

 

5. The discovery of a genetic method of 'switching off' religious belief.

If Christians don't fear this, they should opt to have the treatment - because it can't hurt them, can it?  

If they do fear it, then that's a tacit admission on their part that their faith is a purely biological and material thing and that they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls.

 

Whether Christians "fear" it or not, they may wish to keep it.  I fail to see how your conclusion "they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls" follows from anything you previously said here.

 

 

Some Christians wish to keep the Earth at the center of the solar system.  So be it.

 

My conclusion is (tentatively) based on the Christian duality of the body and the spirit, as first described in Adam's creation. Faith and belief are considered to be spiritual qualities of a person's spirit, not something that originates in their physical bodies.  Which is why our immortal spirits will be clothed in new flesh on the Last Day.  Or putting it another way, Christians are told to think of themselves as treasures in jars of clay.  The treasure is their born-again spirit and their jar of clay is their physical body.  The former can never perish, but the latter can.  When a person's physical body perishes, their spirit lives on... unaffected by anything physical. 

 

Therefore, if a purely physical method of permanently switching off a person's belief is found, that will change things completely.  Since faith is a spiritual condition, how can it be affected by any physical changes in a person's body?  Now, I don't mean that what we experience via our bodies has no effect on our spirits.  No.  What I'm driving at is more like this.  No matter how hard a surgeon looks, he can't cut out a person's soul/spirit.  There's no 'spiritual' organ in the body that's a physical receptacle for their 'soul'.  So, even if that person undergoes an experience that makes them believe or makes them stop believing - that's not the same as a direct physical intervention in their spirit or soul.

 

Therefore, if a genetic method is found of 'shutting down' their faith, I contend that this will be exactly that kind of physical intervention that shows the Christian spirit/body duality to be wrong.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Thanks for the clarifications.  I generally agree with your more focused applicability.  The genetic angle (your point #5) is indeed intriguing.  However, even if there is a genetic cause of religious beliefs, the evidence reveals that another cause exists - that of social learning from the environment after birth.  To the extent that social religious education (i.e., post-birth indoctrination/education of religion) is caused by the genetic source in the first place, this may result in eventual collapse of the social education of religious beliefs after so many generations, assuming the genetic predisposition for such behavior is eliminated and is no longer in the gene pool.  Then again, it may not.  If religious belief is ultimately caused by genetic disposition, then the real question is whether it will be selected for or selected against under stander biological evolutionary theory.  Your desire, or mine, to artificially mutate the human genome to change the expressed behavior (i.e., artificially select) would likely have little impact on natural selection within the human species.

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For nearly a hundred years, Earth has sent radio signals into space.

 

For over 50 years signals have been sent to contact intelligent life.

 

For over 50 years some have actively listened for any transmissions for outer space.

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For nearly a hundred years, Earth has sent radio signals into space.

 

For over 50 years signals have been sent to contact intelligent life.

 

For over 50 years some have actively listened for any transmissions for outer space.

 

 

Many fundie Christians don't realize that a 200 light year wide bubble doesn't even register as one part in a hundred trillion of the volume of our universe.  Many fundie Christians are science illiterate.

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from wiki:

 

 

The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be INFINITE. The region visible from Earth (the observable universe) is a sphere with a radius of about 46 billion light years, based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed.

 

 

Yeah dude, the VISIBLE part of the Universe is a whopping 46 billion light years in radius!  so 50 years of radio signals, is about ONE BILLIONTH of the radius to reach the visible ends...

 

Enough to make anyone's head spin!Wendycrazy.gif

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from wiki:

 

 

The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be INFINITE. The region visible from Earth (the observable universe) is a sphere with a radius of about 46 billion light years, based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed.

 

 

Yeah dude, the VISIBLE part of the Universe is a whopping 46 billion light years in radius!  so 50 years of radio signals, is about ONE BILLIONTH of the radius to reach the visible ends...

 

Enough to make anyone's head spin!Wendycrazy.gif

 

 

So?

 

Why should that be a problem for the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us?

 

Are have they?

 

We don't know...do we?

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For nearly a hundred years, Earth has sent radio signals into space.

 

For over 50 years signals have been sent to contact intelligent life.

 

For over 50 years some have actively listened for any transmissions for outer space.

the vastness of space seems to be beyond you understanding. The nearest habitable planet is 13 light years away. Radio signals travelslower than the speed of light. Take a hint your guy bill Craig, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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Radio signals travel slower than the speed of light.

Actually, radio signals do travel at the speed of light, at least in a vacuum, which almost all of outer space consists of...

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from wiki:

 

 

The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be INFINITE. The region visible from Earth (the observable universe) is a sphere with a radius of about 46 billion light years, based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed.

 

 

Yeah dude, the VISIBLE part of the Universe is a whopping 46 billion light years in radius!  so 50 years of radio signals, is about ONE BILLIONTH of the radius to reach the visible ends...

 

Enough to make anyone's head spin!Wendycrazy.gif

 

 

So?

 

Why should that be a problem for the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us?

 

Are have they?

 

We don't know...do we?

 

 

It isn't a problem for those of us who have moved past pretending your imaginary friend created the universe.

 

Whatever else happens in the universe isn't a problem.

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Radio signals travel slower than the speed of light.

Actually, radio signals do travel at the speed of light, at least in a vacuum, which almost all of outer space consists of...

ok, thanks

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For nearly a hundred years, Earth has sent radio signals into space.

 

For over 50 years signals have been sent to contact intelligent life.

 

For over 50 years some have actively listened for any transmissions for outer space.

 

Thank you for taking the bait, Ironhorse.

 

I reckoned that if I posted something like this, it'd prod you to emerge.

Now that you've confirmed that you DO read what I post, there's that outstanding matter between us that's never going to go away until you do something about it.

 

This... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62720-no-shit-sherlock/page-24#.U7pTvZRdWYE (post # 465, to be specific)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To recap.
 
1.
You are wrong about Copernicus' Christian beliefs being the driving force for his work, as I have demonstrated. 
Please indicate your agreement.
 
2.
I did not say that Copernicus rejected ALL religious truth. 
He rejected the Catholic religious 'truth' (i.e.,dogma) about the natural universe.
Please indicate your agreement.
 
3.
No belief in the Christian god is necessary for rational inquiry of the natural universe. 
Please indicate your agreement.
 
4.
Observation, analysis and the logical testing of hypotheses are all that's necessary for rational inquiry of the natural universe.
Please indicate your agreement.
 
5.
Science is the study of the natural universe and supernaturalism (such as the belief in a Creator) is not within it's remit.
Please indicate your agreement.
 
6.
Kobe's argument has been shown to be false and cannot be used to claim that 'true' Christianity assisted the rise of science.
Please indicate your agreement.
 
 
So that's six (6) separate responses of agreement from you, Ironhorse.
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Any time you're ready...
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1.  The discovery of past or present life on another planet in our solar system.

This would prove that life is not a supernatural creation, but arises wherever the right conditions prevail.  Genesis will be falsified.

 

It would not "prove" life is not of supernatural origin.  It would certainly be evidence that life has arisen in more than one place in the Cosmos, and not in only one place.  What part of Genesis would be falsified?

 

#1 is specifically targeted at those Theistic Evolutionist Christians who hold that while the universe was intelligently designed to support life, it was not designed for life to originate spontaneously from it's raw materials.  They believe that life only exists on Earth and needed the supernatural intervention of God to get started.  Thus, if life were found elsewhere in the cosmos, this would invalidate their 'Earth only' position, which takes it's cue from Genesis.

 

2.  The discovery of intelligent life on the planet of another star.

This would prove that humans were not the supernatural creations of a god, but simply one of many types of life in the universe.  Again, Genesis will be falsified.

 
Again, not "proof" that "humans were not supernatural creations of a god".  Agree it would be evidence of other life on that particular planet (or planets if more than one).  Again, what part of Genesis would be falsified?
 
Please see my above response.

3.  The confirmation that we do indeed inhabit any kind (level) of multiverse.

Level 1 is finite in time, but infinite in space.  

Level 2 is infinite in time and space.

Level 3 is like 2, but with an infinity of parallel universes coexisting with each other.

Level 4 is the combination of levels 1 thru 3, in every possible combination.

Any kind of physical infinity immediately and totally destroys Christianity.  In an infinite universe, any event that has a non-zero possibility of occurring will occur an infinite number of times.  In an infinite universe, Christ is crucified not just once, but an infinite number of times, rendering his sacrifice... meaningless.

 

 
Does Christianity predict a lack of physical infinity?  Whether something is meaningless is a personal opinion that may not apply to other folks.
 
As I understand it sdelsolray, nothing is impossible for the Christian God.
So, while some Christians say that only the immaterial, spiritual God is infinite and nothing physical can therefore be infinite, others will no doubt say that God is not limited to any human logic and can create an infinity of physical infinities, if he wants to.
 
Anyway, a physical infinity causes the Infinite Replication Paradox.  
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philosophy/afterlife-under-physicalism-t21843.html (Please see the quote by Teuton.)  Thus an infinite number of Earths require an infinite number of Messiahs to be crucified an infinite number of times.  Should God confine himself to being crucified just once, here on this Earth, then he condemns the inhabitants of an infinite number of other Earths to certain hellfire.  If God acts fairly and justly, he's therefore obliged to sacrifice himself to himself ad infinitum.  If God doesn't act, then he's the unjust savior of only one Earth in an infinity of identical, but doomed Earths... which doesn't seem very God-like or meaningful to me.  But as you say, some folks might still choose to find either option meaningful.  That's their choice.

4. The confirmation of quantum gravity.

This would kill off any possibility of an initial singularity and so kill off William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument.

 

Agreed.  WLC's KCA argument has already been "killed off" for numerous other reasons.

 

Agree.

But like a zombie from a bad B-movie, the KCA just keeps coming back to 'life'.  I'd hope that quantum gravity would be the magic bullet that slays it for good.  wink.png

 

5. The discovery of a genetic method of 'switching off' religious belief.

If Christians don't fear this, they should opt to have the treatment - because it can't hurt them, can it?  

If they do fear it, then that's a tacit admission on their part that their faith is a purely biological and material thing and that they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls.

 

Whether Christians "fear" it or not, they may wish to keep it.  I fail to see how your conclusion "they don't possess immortal, immaterial souls" follows from anything you previously said here.

 

 

Some Christians wish to keep the Earth at the center of the solar system.  So be it.

 

My conclusion is (tentatively) based on the Christian duality of the body and the spirit, as first described in Adam's creation. Faith and belief are considered to be spiritual qualities of a person's spirit, not something that originates in their physical bodies.  Which is why our immortal spirits will be clothed in new flesh on the Last Day.  Or putting it another way, Christians are told to think of themselves as treasures in jars of clay.  The treasure is their born-again spirit and their jar of clay is their physical body.  The former can never perish, but the latter can.  When a person's physical body perishes, their spirit lives on... unaffected by anything physical. 

 

Therefore, if a purely physical method of permanently switching off a person's belief is found, that will change things completely.  Since faith is a spiritual condition, how can it be affected by any physical changes in a person's body?  Now, I don't mean that what we experience via our bodies has no effect on our spirits.  No.  What I'm driving at is more like this.  No matter how hard a surgeon looks, he can't cut out a person's soul/spirit.  There's no 'spiritual' organ in the body that's a physical receptacle for their 'soul'.  So, even if that person undergoes an experience that makes them believe or makes them stop believing - that's not the same as a direct physical intervention in their spirit or soul.

 

Therefore, if a genetic method is found of 'shutting down' their faith, I contend that this will be exactly that kind of physical intervention that shows the Christian spirit/body duality to be wrong.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Thanks for the clarifications.  I generally agree with your more focused applicability.  The genetic angle (your point #5) is indeed intriguing.  However, even if there is a genetic cause of religious beliefs, the evidence reveals that another cause exists - that of social learning from the environment after birth.  To the extent that social religious education (i.e., post-birth indoctrination/education of religion) is caused by the genetic source in the first place, this may result in eventual collapse of the social education of religious beliefs after so many generations, assuming the genetic predisposition for such behavior is eliminated and is no longer in the gene pool.  Then again, it may not.  If religious belief is ultimately caused by genetic disposition, then the real question is whether it will be selected for or selected against under stander biological evolutionary theory.  Your desire, or mine, to artificially mutate the human genome to change the expressed behavior (i.e., artificially select) would likely have little impact on natural selection within the human species.

 

 

Ah... now we see the problems involved in venturing outside one's sphere of interest/knowledge.

 

Cosmology, astronomy and astrophysics are my thang.  Genetics, less so.

However, this thread has served it secondary purpose... to get Ironhorse to show himself.  ;)

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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from wiki:

 

 

The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be INFINITE. The region visible from Earth (the observable universe) is a sphere with a radius of about 46 billion light years, based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed.

 

 

Yeah dude, the VISIBLE part of the Universe is a whopping 46 billion light years in radius!  so 50 years of radio signals, is about ONE BILLIONTH of the radius to reach the visible ends...

 

Enough to make anyone's head spin!Wendycrazy.gif

 

 

So?

 

So, unless they are morally perfect, as per the stories of your hero, C.S. Lewis, they will need saving from their sin.  He understood the problem.  You clearly don't.

 

Why should that be a problem for the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us?

 

Ask your buddy, C.S.

 

Are have they?

 

We don't know...do we?

 

Hence the title of this thread.  Do keep up.

 

 

Oh and it would be appreciated if you deal with those six replies of agreement you owe me, before you post anything else.  

 

Y'know how it is, IH.  

The lurkers are taking much more note of your behavior, than the content of your posts.  So please don't disappoint them (again) by being stubborn and stiff-necked and displaying bad fruit.  A little of Christ's humility and grace from you would go a long way to showing them that you are a true Christian, not a wolf in sheep's clothing.  

 

Remember what I PMed you about this?

Holding out because you've got an attitude and refusing to admit where you're wrong, pushes your potential brothers and sisters in Christ away from the cross.  

Now, we're ok with this outcome if you are too.  Your negative ministry against Christ is just fine by us.

 

goodjob.gif

 

The choice is yours...

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from wiki:

 

 

The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be INFINITE. The region visible from Earth (the observable universe) is a sphere with a radius of about 46 billion light years, based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed.

 

 

Yeah dude, the VISIBLE part of the Universe is a whopping 46 billion light years in radius!  so 50 years of radio signals, is about ONE BILLIONTH of the radius to reach the visible ends...

 

Enough to make anyone's head spin!Wendycrazy.gif

 

 

So?

 

Why should that be a problem for the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us?

 

Are have they?

 

We don't know...do we?

 

No one said there is "the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us". We implied the signals will take billions of years (maybe more) to reach far wide in the universe.

There might be a life somewhere out there that has been in existence since billions of years ago or there can be life somewhere billions of years from now.

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from wiki:

 

 

The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be INFINITE. The region visible from Earth (the observable universe) is a sphere with a radius of about 46 billion light years, based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed.

 

 

Yeah dude, the VISIBLE part of the Universe is a whopping 46 billion light years in radius!  so 50 years of radio signals, is about ONE BILLIONTH of the radius to reach the visible ends...

 

Enough to make anyone's head spin!Wendycrazy.gif

 

 

So?

 

Why should that be a problem for the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us?

 

Are have they?

 

We don't know...do we?

 

No one said there is "the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us". We implied the signals will take billions of years (maybe more) to reach far wide in the universe.

There might be a life somewhere out there that has been in existence since billions of years ago or there can be life somewhere billions of years from now.

 

 

 

I know. I agree with you.

 

I'm just saying we do not have any proof yet.

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from wiki:

 

 

The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be INFINITE. The region visible from Earth (the observable universe) is a sphere with a radius of about 46 billion light years, based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed.

 

 

Yeah dude, the VISIBLE part of the Universe is a whopping 46 billion light years in radius!  so 50 years of radio signals, is about ONE BILLIONTH of the radius to reach the visible ends...

 

Enough to make anyone's head spin!Wendycrazy.gif

 

 

So?

 

Why should that be a problem for the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us?

 

Are have they?

 

We don't know...do we?

 

No one said there is "the intelligent life out there that "evolved" billions of years before us". We implied the signals will take billions of years (maybe more) to reach far wide in the universe.

There might be a life somewhere out there that has been in existence since billions of years ago or there can be life somewhere billions of years from now.

 

 

 

I know. I agree with you.

 

I'm just saying we do not have any proof yet.

 

This one is good at backpedaling.

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