Problems In Genesis

[miekko]

 

 

I've been told that any rabbi will say that the early chapters of Genesis are allegory.

 

Based on much of what I have been reading regarding Jews and their interpretation of the Old Testament, I would say that this is a true statement.

 

 

The creationist explaination I grew up with was that since the original creation was good/perfect, inbreeding didn't cause genetic issues. So it was totally fine for siblings to marry at that point, and people lived for more than 120 years since God hadn't changed that yet, so there was plenty of time for Eve to make lots of babies. It was just after several generations of the taint of sin, and especially once the ice canopy melted to cause the flood (yes, there was a serious idea floating around that the earth used to be encased in an ice bubble that made the entire world have a pleasantly mild climate and blocked out harmful UV radiation) and all the extra solar radiation started damaging DNA that incest became a problem.

 

It's amazing what people will come up with to try to make sense of the bible.

 

The only logical thing I can figure out is that, since women were considered "nothing" in biblical times, that Adam and Eve had daughters that were never mentioned. However, even if Eve had popped out 50 kids, I still don't see how it would have created the population explosion that seems to be insinuated by the writer of Genesis. It appears to me that the bible indicates that cities worth of populations existed by the time Seth was born. I just do see how that can be true.

 

 

The book of genisis is like a marvel comic. It just isn't as entertaining and the super hero is boring.

 

Even if she squeezed out 100 kids there is not enough diversity in the genetic material to breed a viable race at that point period. it would take what like at least I think 30-60 couples not related directly by one step to breed a viable new gene pool. less just yields failure at genetic level over time.

 

Genisis would make a good cartoon series if you skip the religious part and just make it sci-fi.

 

it can't be true because that would make the world we live in sort of magical which there is no proof of and not scientific which there are literally rooms full of proof for.

 

The idea some creationists have, of course, is that Adam and Eve were fully perfect, and basically, their reproduction gave off almost-clones. This isn't all that weird - some very inbred populations in some species survive fairly well and don't have much of a problem with that (e.g. some species of ant). However, they imagine that after the fall - and even more so after the flood - satanic influence/radiation/etc started causing negative mutations, which make inbreeding a more damaging practice.

 

There's nothing entirely illogical about their proposition, it's just a very contrived solution to a thing we can posit much better explanations for.

[Justus]

So, last night I was into some deep thought about something I had been wondering about a few weeks ago:

 

Cain killed Abel and God placed a mark on his head so that no one will kill him as vengeance.

 

Genesis 4:

 

^"8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother;^[a] and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

⁹ Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

¹⁰ And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. ¹¹ So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. ¹² When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”

¹³ And Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! ¹⁴ Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”

¹⁵ And the Lord said to him, “Therefore,^[b] whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him." (Quote from Bible gateway NKJV Version)

 

So after thinking about this and reading through the text, an interesting question is raised. Who are the people who would kill Cain? From reading the Bible, the only people who would kill him are his parents. As far as that goes, why would his parents kill him if he is their only offspring? Something to seriously consider.

 

 

Secondly if you go to the next verse (verse 16), It states the following:

^"16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. ¹⁷ And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch."

 

So we see that in such a short time, Cain goes from being only one of three people on earth to having a wife and bearing a son. This raises other more serious questions:

Where did his wife come from?

If God made other humans to populate the earth, then he made them with the sin curse as well. Why? Why not just start over right here and make new humans without sin?

 

Later in the same chapter, verse 25 indicates that Adam and Eve had another son, Seth. But by this time, the bible seems to indicate that the earth was populated with many people at this point. Which raises the same questions, where did these people come from.

 

AS I have thought about this, I see that it can only be logically concluded that this creation story is meant to be an allegory and is not a true story. It just has too many problems for it to be literal. Adam and Eve would have to be popping out babies at an extremely high rate in order to have any sizeable means to achieve populating the earth, then you run into genetic problems and, when you really start to add it up, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

How can Christians read this and not see how this creates problems for their interpretation of the creation account and populating of the earth? It sure looks more and more like they really aren't reading it.

 

 

 Apparently you believe the Bible says that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve?

 

So if somebody thinks 1+1=4 then would math make any sense either...

[Storm]

 

So, last night I was into some deep thought about something I had been wondering about a few weeks ago:

 

Cain killed Abel and God placed a mark on his head so that no one will kill him as vengeance.

 

Genesis 4:

 

^"8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother;^[a] and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

⁹ Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

¹⁰ And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. ¹¹ So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. ¹² When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”

¹³ And Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! ¹⁴ Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”

¹⁵ And the Lord said to him, “Therefore,^[b] whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him." (Quote from Bible gateway NKJV Version)

 

So after thinking about this and reading through the text, an interesting question is raised. Who are the people who would kill Cain? From reading the Bible, the only people who would kill him are his parents. As far as that goes, why would his parents kill him if he is their only offspring? Something to seriously consider.

 

 

Secondly if you go to the next verse (verse 16), It states the following:

^"16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. ¹⁷ And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch."

 

So we see that in such a short time, Cain goes from being only one of three people on earth to having a wife and bearing a son. This raises other more serious questions:

Where did his wife come from?

If God made other humans to populate the earth, then he made them with the sin curse as well. Why? Why not just start over right here and make new humans without sin?

 

Later in the same chapter, verse 25 indicates that Adam and Eve had another son, Seth. But by this time, the bible seems to indicate that the earth was populated with many people at this point. Which raises the same questions, where did these people come from.

 

AS I have thought about this, I see that it can only be logically concluded that this creation story is meant to be an allegory and is not a true story. It just has too many problems for it to be literal. Adam and Eve would have to be popping out babies at an extremely high rate in order to have any sizeable means to achieve populating the earth, then you run into genetic problems and, when you really start to add it up, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

How can Christians read this and not see how this creates problems for their interpretation of the creation account and populating of the earth? It sure looks more and more like they really aren't reading it.

 

 

 Apparently you believe the Bible says that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve?

 

So if somebody thinks 1+1=4 then would math make any sense either...

 

Would you care to explain your post? Are you arguing that the bible doesn't say god created Adam and Eve?

[Justus]

 

 

So, last night I was into some deep thought about something I had been wondering about a few weeks ago:

 

Cain killed Abel and God placed a mark on his head so that no one will kill him as vengeance.

 

Genesis 4:

 

^"8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother;^[a] and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

⁹ Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

¹⁰ And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. ¹¹ So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. ¹² When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”

¹³ And Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! ¹⁴ Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”

¹⁵ And the Lord said to him, “Therefore,^[b] whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him." (Quote from Bible gateway NKJV Version)

 

So after thinking about this and reading through the text, an interesting question is raised. Who are the people who would kill Cain? From reading the Bible, the only people who would kill him are his parents. As far as that goes, why would his parents kill him if he is their only offspring? Something to seriously consider.

 

 

Secondly if you go to the next verse (verse 16), It states the following:

^"16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. ¹⁷ And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch."

 

So we see that in such a short time, Cain goes from being only one of three people on earth to having a wife and bearing a son. This raises other more serious questions:

Where did his wife come from?

If God made other humans to populate the earth, then he made them with the sin curse as well. Why? Why not just start over right here and make new humans without sin?

 

Later in the same chapter, verse 25 indicates that Adam and Eve had another son, Seth. But by this time, the bible seems to indicate that the earth was populated with many people at this point. Which raises the same questions, where did these people come from.

 

AS I have thought about this, I see that it can only be logically concluded that this creation story is meant to be an allegory and is not a true story. It just has too many problems for it to be literal. Adam and Eve would have to be popping out babies at an extremely high rate in order to have any sizeable means to achieve populating the earth, then you run into genetic problems and, when you really start to add it up, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

How can Christians read this and not see how this creates problems for their interpretation of the creation account and populating of the earth? It sure looks more and more like they really aren't reading it.

 

 

 Apparently you believe the Bible says that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve?

 

So if somebody thinks 1+1=4 then would math make any sense either...

 

Would you care to explain your post? Are you arguing that the bible doesn't say god created Adam and Eve?

 

 

It is not written that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve, nor is it written that only one set of procreators were created.  

[mymistake]

 

It is not written that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve, nor is it written that only one set of procreators were created.  

 

 

 

Good point.  The Bible also does not say that Jesus was not a Raptor.

 

 

 

Also the Bible does not say that God is not a metaphor.  Maybe God is just a metaphor.

[themonkeyman]

So after thinking about this and reading through the text, an interesting question is raised. Who are the people who would kill Cain? From reading the Bible, the only people who would kill him are his parents. As far as that goes, why would his parents kill him if he is their only offspring? Something to seriously consider.

 

When I first started I wondered this but if you really think about the book of Genesis it was esentially showing that the Jews were Polytheistic and that Messoptamia was in existance at the time.

 

The question I wondered is why was the Land called Nod and because it said 'Land of Nod' that implies someone was called Nod back then??

 

Cian also had a wife which once again shows a Messoptamia.

 

In a nutshell Genesis is a collection of Babylonian Myths the Babalonian Creation stories etc were written over 1000 years before Genesis and so its not hard to see where Genesis got its ideas.

 

The Epic of Gilgamesh is one good idea for this.

 

See we read the bible now as a largely unedited however back when this stuff was being written even as late as 1500AD the bible had huge chunks added and removed.

 

Genesis is definately a story based on another loose story.

[mymistake]

 

 Apparently you believe the Bible says that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve?

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

²³ And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

²⁴ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

²⁵ And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

²⁶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

²⁷ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

²⁸ And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

²⁹ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

³⁰ And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

³¹ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

end quote

 

Genesis 1   King James Version

 

The Bible states that God created people on the sixth day.

 

 

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

Genesis 2:22

²² And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

 

 

 

So if somebody thinks 1+1=4 then would math make any sense either...

 

You mean like how most Christians believe 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god?

[Storm]

 

 

 

So, last night I was into some deep thought about something I had been wondering about a few weeks ago:

 

Cain killed Abel and God placed a mark on his head so that no one will kill him as vengeance.

 

Genesis 4:

 

^"8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother;^[a] and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

⁹ Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

¹⁰ And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. ¹¹ So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. ¹² When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”

¹³ And Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! ¹⁴ Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”

¹⁵ And the Lord said to him, “Therefore,^[b] whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him." (Quote from Bible gateway NKJV Version)

 

So after thinking about this and reading through the text, an interesting question is raised. Who are the people who would kill Cain? From reading the Bible, the only people who would kill him are his parents. As far as that goes, why would his parents kill him if he is their only offspring? Something to seriously consider.

 

 

Secondly if you go to the next verse (verse 16), It states the following:

^"16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. ¹⁷ And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch."

 

So we see that in such a short time, Cain goes from being only one of three people on earth to having a wife and bearing a son. This raises other more serious questions:

Where did his wife come from?

If God made other humans to populate the earth, then he made them with the sin curse as well. Why? Why not just start over right here and make new humans without sin?

 

Later in the same chapter, verse 25 indicates that Adam and Eve had another son, Seth. But by this time, the bible seems to indicate that the earth was populated with many people at this point. Which raises the same questions, where did these people come from.

 

AS I have thought about this, I see that it can only be logically concluded that this creation story is meant to be an allegory and is not a true story. It just has too many problems for it to be literal. Adam and Eve would have to be popping out babies at an extremely high rate in order to have any sizeable means to achieve populating the earth, then you run into genetic problems and, when you really start to add it up, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

How can Christians read this and not see how this creates problems for their interpretation of the creation account and populating of the earth? It sure looks more and more like they really aren't reading it.

 

 

 Apparently you believe the Bible says that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve?

 

So if somebody thinks 1+1=4 then would math make any sense either...

 

Would you care to explain your post? Are you arguing that the bible doesn't say god created Adam and Eve?

 

 

It is not written that in the beginning God created Adam & Eve, nor is it written that only one set of procreators were created.  

 

 

MyMistake showed that to clearly not be a true statement on your part regarding Adam and Eve. Would you care to elaborate on what you are trying to say in more than just one sentence?

[Justus]

MyMistake showed that to clearly not be a true statement on your part regarding Adam and Eve. Would you care to elaborate on what you are trying to say in more than just one sentence?

Genesis 1:26, And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  [You do realize that the word God is derived from 'Elohim' which is plural; yet the reason for the plural seems to elude many.]  

 

You mean like how most Christians believe 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god?

If I was not born of the Spirit and the Word, I might take offense that that insinuation; but who woulda thunk that water could be solid, liquid or gas, but in whatever form is still water. Reminds me of Psalms 23:2

 

Would you care to elaborate on what you are trying to say in more than just one sentence?

If God created Adam & Eve howbeit that Adam was married to male?  Hence it is written in Genesis 6:1:  "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them"  

 

I was merely stating that the interpretation that the LORD God created only one set of procreators named Adam & Eve is in error.  As Thomas Paine is quoted, "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right."

[Orbit]

 

MyMistake showed that to clearly not be a true statement on your part regarding Adam and Eve. Would you care to elaborate on what you are trying to say in more than just one sentence?

Genesis 1:26, And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  [You do realize that the word God is derived from 'Elohim' which is plural; yet the reason for the plural seems to elude many.]  

 

It doesn't elude me. What does it mean to you? That there is more than one god?

 

You mean like how most Christians believe 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god?

If I was not born of the Spirit and the Word, I might take offense that that insinuation; but who woulda thunk that water could be solid, liquid or gas, but in whatever form is still water. Reminds me of Psalms 23:2

 

The trinity makes no sense. Jesus prays to himself and asks himself "if it be your will let this cup pass from me?

Would you care to elaborate on what you are trying to say in more than just one sentence?

If God created Adam & Eve howbeit that Adam was married to male?  Hence it is written in Genesis 6:1:  "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them"  

 

I was merely stating that the interpretation that the LORD God created Adam & Eve is in error.

 

Are you a gnostic? And are you really saying there were only men, and the men had babies together? What denomination are you?

[Storm]

Justus, as a nice guy who doesn't want to see you get annihilated, I'd like to warn you that you are about to get schooled in the art of understanding what the stupidity of the Christian vomit is you just spewed onto this thread. Be attentive and really read and understand what is about to transpire in this thread as a result of your response.

 

Education to commence shortly...

[mymistake]

 

You mean like how most Christians believe 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god?

If I was not born of the Spirit and the Word, I might take offense that that insinuation; but who woulda thunk that water could be solid, liquid or gas, but in whatever form is still water. Reminds me of Psalms 23:2

 

 

So you have accepted the heresy of modalism?  Well don't worry, we won't tell the other Christians.  

 

Here is a random fundie responding to modalism:

http://whitedragonawa.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/why-modalism-is-a-damnable-heresy/

 

"This is a heresy that leads a person to Hell because any incorrect belief about the nature of God cancels out salvation by default."

 

Wow, the irony is strong in that one.   LOL!

 

 

 

And here another random fundie:

http://www.christiandefense.org/oneness_c.hstoy.htm

 

 

And the stupidity burns:

"The Apostle Paul instructs Titus to refute those who oppose sound doctrine (Titus 1:9, 13)."

 

Funny how Paul could reach out and write a book from the grave.

 

 

 

But anyway since this is an ex-Christian forum we recognize that all flavors of Christianity have equal claim to the Truthyness.  However we do have a few Christian trolls who might attack you for your unorthodox beliefs.  Don't pay them any attention.  Heck, I myself was a modalist at the end just before I rejected Christianity.  So don't feel bad.

 

 

 

Genesis 1:26, And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  [You do realize that the word God is derived from 'Elohim' which is plural; yet the reason for the plural seems to elude many.]  

 

The reason is not lost on us.  Back when Genesis 1 was written the Hebrews and company worshiped God Most High and his 70 divine children.  That is right, they were all polytheistic.  Yahweh was only one of the sons of God Most High and Yahweh was married to his sister goddess and consort Asherah.  Oh I'm afraid the Bible isn't quite what they buttered it up to be in Sunday School.

[Storm]

Genesis 1:26, And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  [You do realize that the word God is derived from 'Elohim' which is plural; yet the reason for the plural seems to elude many.]  

 

I am very much aware that the word used here is "Elohim" and that it is a plural form of the word. I have found that nowhere in the bible does it support the trinity, nor is there any reason to think that Elohim is plural because it represents God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is simply something that is read into the bible by Christians and truly makes little sense to me, and many others. From my studies, I have found that there are two possibilities for the use of Elohim in this passage. The first reason was already mentioned by MyMistake, and that is because it refers to El and his council of gods. You can read Psalms 82 to get a better understanding of this concept of the council of gods. Something that is important to remember about reading in the old testament, is that the audience for whom the books were written were not Christians. They were Jews. The Jews do not believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is an entirely Christian concept. The people for whom this book was written would not have understood it in the context that you associate it with.

The second possibility is that Elohim is simply a Hebrew version of the concept of the "Royal We". In our culture, we sometimes refer to ourselves as we in certain contexts. "Me, myself, and I" is the context of this idea.

So the bottom line in this is simply that your statement is not true and you have no support for the assertion you have made.

 

If I was not born of the Spirit and the Word, I might take offense that that insinuation; but who woulda thunk that water could be solid, liquid or gas, but in whatever form is still water. Reminds me of Psalms 23:2

 

The old water is three states but still the same molecular compound argument. How original. Do you really think that anyone on these forums are going to buy that? Like I said earlier, the trinity is a man made concept that is not supported by the bible. The word trinity is not in the bible. Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly say that god is three beings in one. It is read into by people who think that is the case.

 

If God created Adam & Eve howbeit that Adam was married to male?  Hence it is written in Genesis 6:1:  "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them"  

 

I was merely stating that the interpretation that the LORD God created only one set of procreators named Adam & Eve is in error.  As Thomas Paine is quoted, "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right."

 

I am not sure what you are saying here. You are saying that god created more than Adam and Eve? Where in the Bible does it say that? The Genesis 6 passage does not support your assertion. If you read one chapter earlier, Genesis 5 is the genealogy of Adam to Noah. There were women involved in that genealogy. No male with male sex. I am totally lost as to where you got this line of thinking. It does not make any sense to me.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly say that god is three beings in one.

 

That's actually both true and false. There is 1 John 5:7, which does say exactly that, at least in the KJV and some other old translations. However, it's a known forgery and most modern Bibles omit it.

[TrueFreedom]

 

 

Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly say that god is three beings in one.

 

That's actually both true and false. There is 1 John 5:7, which does say exactly that, at least in the KJV and some other old translations. However, it's a known forgery and most modern Bibles omit it.

 

I don't think that I had ever heard that.  Interesting...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

[Storm]

 

 

Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly say that god is three beings in one.

 

That's actually both true and false. There is 1 John 5:7, which does say exactly that, at least in the KJV and some other old translations. However, it's a known forgery and most modern Bibles omit it.

 

 

I was aware of that passage, however, I believe it was a later addition to the text and is not an original scripture. Thus, my premise still stands.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

 

Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly say that god is three beings in one.

 

That's actually both true and false. There is 1 John 5:7, which does say exactly that, at least in the KJV and some other old translations. However, it's a known forgery and most modern Bibles omit it.

 

 

I was aware of that passage, however, I believe it was a later addition to the text and is not an original scripture. Thus, my premise still stands.

 

 

Indeed, that's why I said it's a known forgery. The earliest manuscripts don't have it, and even Bible translators have been omitting the verse for quite some time because it's recognized as not being authentic. It is in the KJV and some other old translations, though, so I wouldn't make the point of it not being in the Bible without adding a disclaimer to address this verse.

[Storm]

 

 

 

 

Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly say that god is three beings in one.

 

That's actually both true and false. There is 1 John 5:7, which does say exactly that, at least in the KJV and some other old translations. However, it's a known forgery and most modern Bibles omit it.

 

 

I was aware of that passage, however, I believe it was a later addition to the text and is not an original scripture. Thus, my premise still stands.

 

 

Indeed, that's why I said it's a known forgery. The earliest manuscripts don't have it, and even Bible translators have been omitting the verse for quite some time because it's recognized as not being authentic. It is in the KJV and some other old translations, though, so I wouldn't make the point of it not being in the Bible without adding a disclaimer to address this verse.

 

Sorry If I appeared cold in my response. I was just replying quickly due to being in a hurry. I remember studying that passage when I was younger. I wasn't sure if he would bring it up or not. Thanks for your insight.

[sdelsolray]

...

 

You mean like how most Christians believe 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god?

If I was not born of the Spirit and the Word, I might take offense that that insinuation; but who woulda thunk that water could be solid, liquid or gas, but in whatever form is still water. Reminds me of Psalms 23:2

 

 

 

Ah, yes, the "My religion asserts that my God is actually a Trinity composed of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Trinity is just like water - solid, liquid and gas" canard.

 

That's such a compelling and profound analogy.  Spot on.  Without refutation.

 

Let's look at it further:

 

1)  Water cannot exist in as solid, liquid and gas at the same time and in the same place.  Accordingly, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot exist at the same time in the same place.  

 

2)  Once in one state (e.g., solid), water cannot change into another state (e.g., liquid) without an external force being applied (i.e., heat).   Accordingly, God cannot turn into Jesus (or to the Holy Ghost) unless an external force allows it to do so.  

 

3)  Depending on the external environment, water (H2O) might change into a wholly different molecule.  For example, if two water molecules are influenced with electrons, they can change into two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule, and are no longer water, and which have different properties.  Accordingly, if electricity is applied to Jesus, he will split into two different things, "Je" and "sus", which will no longer have the same properties.

 

4)  Of course, plutonium (as well as cyanide, sulfuric acid, among others)  can each exist as a solid, liquid and gas.  Therefore, the Trinity is just like plutonium, cyanide, sulfuric acid and a host of other elements, molecules and compounds.

 

5)  Water can actually exist in a fourth state - plasma.  Accordingly, the Trinity of three is actually a Quadraplex of four.

 

I could go on, and on.

 

Yes, such a great analogy.

 

As to your being "born of the Spirit and the Word" (your words including the curious capitalizations), your attempt to claim a special frame/position of reference and/or special knowledge is more accurately perceived as mere narcissism.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

 

 

 

Nowhere in the bible does it explicitly say that god is three beings in one.

 

That's actually both true and false. There is 1 John 5:7, which does say exactly that, at least in the KJV and some other old translations. However, it's a known forgery and most modern Bibles omit it.

 

 

I was aware of that passage, however, I believe it was a later addition to the text and is not an original scripture. Thus, my premise still stands.

 

 

Indeed, that's why I said it's a known forgery. The earliest manuscripts don't have it, and even Bible translators have been omitting the verse for quite some time because it's recognized as not being authentic. It is in the KJV and some other old translations, though, so I wouldn't make the point of it not being in the Bible without adding a disclaimer to address this verse.

 

Sorry If I appeared cold in my response. I was just replying quickly due to being in a hurry. I remember studying that passage when I was younger. I wasn't sure if he would bring it up or not. Thanks for your insight.

 

 

It didn't come across as cold. What you said is correct, so all's good. I just thought that clarification on the 1 John verse would do some good. (There may be lurkers here who are familiar with the verse without knowing the problems with it, so without any clarification, they could easily write you off as not knowing what you're talking about, even though for all practical purposes you were correct.)

[miekko]

 

...

 

You mean like how most Christians believe 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god?

If I was not born of the Spirit and the Word, I might take offense that that insinuation; but who woulda thunk that water could be solid, liquid or gas, but in whatever form is still water. Reminds me of Psalms 23:2

 

 

 

Ah, yes, the "My religion asserts that my God is actually a Trinity composed of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Trinity is just like water - solid, liquid and gas" canard.

 

That's such a compelling and profound analogy.  Spot on.  Without refutation.

 

Let's look at it further:

 

1)  Water cannot exist in as solid, liquid and gas at the same time and in the same place.  Accordingly, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot exist at the same time in the same place.  

 

2)  Once in one state (e.g., solid), water cannot change into another state (e.g., liquid) without an external force being applied (i.e., heat).   Accordingly, God cannot turn into Jesus (or to the Holy Ghost) unless an external force allows it to do so.  

 

3)  Depending on the external environment, water (H2O) might change into a wholly different molecule.  For example, if two water molecules are influenced with electrons, they can change into two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule, and are no longer water, and which have different properties.  Accordingly, if electricity is applied to Jesus, he will split into two different things, "Je" and "sus", which will no longer have the same properties.

 

4)  Of course, plutonium (as well as cyanide, sulfuric acid, among others)  can each exist as a solid, liquid and gas.  Therefore, the Trinity is just like plutonium, cyanide, sulfuric acid and a host of other elements, molecules and compounds.

 

5)  Water can actually exist in a fourth state - plasma.  Accordingly, the Trinity of three is actually a Quadraplex of four.

 

I could go on, and on.

 

Yes, such a great analogy.

 

As to your being "born of the Spirit and the Word" (your words including the curious capitalizations), your attempt to claim a special frame/position of reference and/or special knowledge is more accurately perceived as mere narcissism.

 

You do realize analogies and metaphors never are supposed to go all the way? 5) is complete irrelevant, since the point of the trinity<>water/ice/vaper metaphor doesn't have to do with the number per se, but with how a thing can have seemingly different properties in different conditions. (Of course, funnily enough it's a metaphor that violates the teachings about the trinity that the ancient church councils decided - thus any Catholic, Lutheran or Anglican who accepts it is essentially a heretic)

 

1), 2 ), 3 ) and 4) are irreevant for similar reasons - your objections fail to realize that analogies are just that - analogies.

[mymistake]

Where is our born of the Spirit and Word Christian to teach us the infinite wisdom of God?

[Storm]

I've been wondering that myself....

[sdelsolray]

 

 

...

 

You mean like how most Christians believe 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 1 god?

If I was not born of the Spirit and the Word, I might take offense that that insinuation; but who woulda thunk that water could be solid, liquid or gas, but in whatever form is still water. Reminds me of Psalms 23:2

 

 

 

Ah, yes, the "My religion asserts that my God is actually a Trinity composed of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Trinity is just like water - solid, liquid and gas" canard.

 

That's such a compelling and profound analogy.  Spot on.  Without refutation.

 

Let's look at it further:

 

1)  Water cannot exist in as solid, liquid and gas at the same time and in the same place.  Accordingly, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot exist at the same time in the same place.  

 

2)  Once in one state (e.g., solid), water cannot change into another state (e.g., liquid) without an external force being applied (i.e., heat).   Accordingly, God cannot turn into Jesus (or to the Holy Ghost) unless an external force allows it to do so.  

 

3)  Depending on the external environment, water (H2O) might change into a wholly different molecule.  For example, if two water molecules are influenced with electrons, they can change into two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule, and are no longer water, and which have different properties.  Accordingly, if electricity is applied to Jesus, he will split into two different things, "Je" and "sus", which will no longer have the same properties.

 

4)  Of course, plutonium (as well as cyanide, sulfuric acid, among others)  can each exist as a solid, liquid and gas.  Therefore, the Trinity is just like plutonium, cyanide, sulfuric acid and a host of other elements, molecules and compounds.

 

5)  Water can actually exist in a fourth state - plasma.  Accordingly, the Trinity of three is actually a Quadraplex of four.

 

I could go on, and on.

 

Yes, such a great analogy.

 

As to your being "born of the Spirit and the Word" (your words including the curious capitalizations), your attempt to claim a special frame/position of reference and/or special knowledge is more accurately perceived as mere narcissism.

 

You do realize analogies and metaphors never are supposed to go all the way? 5) is complete irrelevant, since the point of the trinity<>water/ice/vaper metaphor doesn't have to do with the number per se, but with how a thing can have seemingly different properties in different conditions. (Of course, funnily enough it's a metaphor that violates the teachings about the trinity that the ancient church councils decided - thus any Catholic, Lutheran or Anglican who accepts it is essentially a heretic)

 

1), 2 ), 3 ) and 4) are irreevant for similar reasons - your objections fail to realize that analogies are just that - analogies.

 

Says you.

[mymistake]

Where is our born of the Spirit and Word Christian to teach us the infinite wisdom of God?

 

 

Maybe the modalism link scared the bejebers out of him.  Time to study the Bible some more.