mymistake Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 All of that is very contrary to how my parents raised me and my experiences in a Baptist church. I have never tested my faith in Christ by the way I feel at any given time. I have had a few devastating experiences in my life and I wasn't feeling God all all or even angry with God...or questioning God. But if you parents were from India and you had been born in India then you would have been raised Hindu and you would love pagan gods. So going to heaven or hell is pure luck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 As representing part of the loyal opposition here I submit this resource: Jim Merritt's Bible Contradiction List Answered The following replies are to alleged Biblical contradictions cited by Jim Meritt (not a Bible scholar, but an oceanographer) on the web page, "A List of Biblical Contradictions" at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html. I've covered most of his entries on this page; now as I have developed this website as an encyclopedia, we turned this into a matter of brief comments on individual points made uniquely by Meritt, followed by links to solutions to contradictions. Meritt begins with explanations of various methods I've seen to "explain" alleged contradictions and errors. These require a reply first. 1. "That is to be taken metaphorically" In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN'T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD - which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want... Meritt is correct to chastise those who manipulate the Bible to support doctrines of their own invention. However, this does not mean that the Bible - which is, after all, a composition of literature - cannot make use of literary techniques such as metaphor. This objection cannot be offered to replace critical evaluation, and merely begs the question of whether something is or is not being taken as "the absolute Word of God" (note that saying that something is metaphorical is not necessarily somehow saying it is not absolute; that's another issue) without reference to genre considerations. From: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/merrit01.php While your point is true, how do you critically evaluate which parts of the bible are literally true and which ones aren't? You're pushing scripture into a relm of non-falsifiability by holding the metaphor card behind your back to use whenever you see fit. It's either all literal (which it cannot be due to the existence of contradictions), or it's all metaphor (which it maybe in it's central points, and thus contains no literal truth in it's central points but is only analogous to humanity's quest to find meaning and solve intrapersonal and interpersonal problems, which is not unique to any one religion or secular philosophy), or it's partly literal and partly metaphorical (the possition that most Christians take, which is somewhat reasonable since it recognizes the literal contradictions, but bears the burden of proof to demonstrate the truth of it's literal claims, which it has not). "how do you critically evaluate which parts of the bible are literally true and which ones aren't?" The devil, for some who are critical of the scriptures, is in the details. They insist that these contradiction invalidates the scripture of any truth. I don't see it that way. I invite you and others to check the link I posted or find other Christian apologetic sites that have studied these contradictions. To answer your question: I view the main message of the Bible as true. The message I take as literal. When I come to passages that contradict other passages, I read and study. I don't have the answer for every bible question. It doesn't deter my belief. My faith is based on my relationship with Christ, not in understanding every so called contradiction or every passage. So in other words, you don't critically evaluate the bible. Got it. Don't think I miss understand you. I fully understand what you mean about basing your understanding of the bible on your relationship with Christ. I was a passionate Christian for over 20 years. I loved Jesus and the scriptures with all my heart, felt "god's presence" in worship. Read the bible and felt moved by it's depth, even felt like god gave me divine revelation about what the scriptures mean. I spoke in tongues. I talked about my relationship with Jesus all the time and even won a few of my friends to Christ. I know what you're talking about. I would dare say that I believed it and loved it more that you do now. All of these emotional bases of Christianity can be perfectly explained by psychology and the fact that we are emotional an social creatures. As I'm sure you know, those feelings don't hang around and they aren't reliable. People of other religions report similar experiences, but that doesn't add validity to the supernatural claims of their religion, not for Christianity. The fact is Ironhorse, there are inescapable direct contradictions, logically incoherent concepts, and moral contradictions within the text of the bible. Many of the direct contradictions are the result of transcription errors, but wait! The bible is supposedly the "inerrant" word of god. Why would god be so concerned with inerrancy in the original manuscripts (as apologists say) and not be concerned with maintaining it in the subsequent copies? Why inspire the original authors an not the subsequent transcribers to make sure it stayed without error? If you believe that the bible is "inerrant" then any exception renders that a false statement. If you accept that there are errors but you take it to be the word of god anyway by the "guiding of the Holy Spirit" then you are simply cherry picking. Sorry IH, your appeal to your "relationship with Christ" is an appeal to emotion, that you just feel like it's right. Emotion is absolutely no reliable indicator of truth. If you use it in an attempt to find truth, you usually don't find it. Thanks for your reply Neverlandrut. Some comments on what you posted: "All of these emotional bases of Christianity can be perfectly explained by psychology and the fact that we are emotional an social creatures. As I'm sure you know, those feelings don't hang around and they aren't reliable." Your experience as a Christian it seems have been different from mine. I was not raised in a Pentecostal or charismatic church. I have watched them on religious TV they seem to do a lot of tugging at the heart strings and bringing people to some emotional high. Knowing God and getting closer to God seems to be based on getting a person to "feel" God's presence or "hear" his voice. They also seem to stress getting some "special revelation or word" from God. All of that is very contrary to how my parents raised me and my experiences in a Baptist church. I have never tested my faith in Christ by the way I feel at any given time. I have had a few devastating experiences in my life and I wasn't feeling God all all or even angry with God...or questioning God. NOTE: My wife just informed me...it's time to go out for lunch. So, I will stop here and then finish it or follow up later today. Our experiences probably are different since no two peoples' are the same. FYI, I was raised Baptist for most of my childhood and teen years; I was only charismatic in my late teens and early twenties. So, I'm quite familiar with Baptist teaching (Southern in particular). To imply as you did that Baptists don't "pull on the heart strings" is total BS. They most certainly do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 All of that is very contrary to how my parents raised me and my experiences in a Baptist church. I have never tested my faith in Christ by the way I feel at any given time. I have had a few devastating experiences in my life and I wasn't feeling God all all or even angry with God...or questioning God. But if you parents were from India and you had been born in India then you would have been raised Hindu and you would love pagan gods. So going to heaven or hell is pure luck? Not true. There are many people who were raised in a different faith who converted to the Christian faith. In my case, the way I seemed to have been born a skeptic...i would have questioned my parents faith no matter what it was and in fact, I did as a teenager and young adult. They encouraged me to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted July 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2014 All of that is very contrary to how my parents raised me and my experiences in a Baptist church. I have never tested my faith in Christ by the way I feel at any given time. I have had a few devastating experiences in my life and I wasn't feeling God all all or even angry with God...or questioning God. But if you parents were from India and you had been born in India then you would have been raised Hindu and you would love pagan gods. So going to heaven or hell is pure luck? Not true. There are many people who were raised in a different faith who converted to the Christian faith. In my case, the way I seemed to have been born a skeptic...i would have questioned my parents faith no matter what it was and in fact, I did as a teenager and young adult. They encouraged me to do so. Bullshit. Have you ever seriously considered that Christianity might have no reasonable foundation? Because it doesn't. Have you ever seriously considered that Krishna might be the true saviour? Or Mohammed? Please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 All of that is very contrary to how my parents raised me and my experiences in a Baptist church. I have never tested my faith in Christ by the way I feel at any given time. I have had a few devastating experiences in my life and I wasn't feeling God all all or even angry with God...or questioning God. But if you parents were from India and you had been born in India then you would have been raised Hindu and you would love pagan gods. So going to heaven or hell is pure luck? Not true. There are many people who were raised in a different faith who converted to the Christian faith. In my case, the way I seemed to have been born a skeptic...i would have questioned my parents faith no matter what it was and in fact, I did as a teenager and young adult. They encouraged me to do so. Rrright. Out of all the stupid crap you post, Ironhorse, your claim to be a skeptic, converted to the christian faith, is your most disingenous claim yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 All of that is very contrary to how my parents raised me and my experiences in a Baptist church. I have never tested my faith in Christ by the way I feel at any given time. I have had a few devastating experiences in my life and I wasn't feeling God all all or even angry with God...or questioning God. But if you parents were from India and you had been born in India then you would have been raised Hindu and you would love pagan gods. So going to heaven or hell is pure luck? Not true. There are many people who were raised in a different faith who converted to the Christian faith. In my case, the way I seemed to have been born a skeptic...i would have questioned my parents faith no matter what it was and in fact, I did as a teenager and young adult. They encouraged me to do so. Rrright. Out of all the stupid crap you post, Ironhorse, your claim to be a skeptic, converted to the christian faith, is your most disingenous claim yet. What have I said that is disingenous? I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 All of that is very contrary to how my parents raised me and my experiences in a Baptist church. I have never tested my faith in Christ by the way I feel at any given time. I have had a few devastating experiences in my life and I wasn't feeling God all all or even angry with God...or questioning God. But if you parents were from India and you had been born in India then you would have been raised Hindu and you would love pagan gods. So going to heaven or hell is pure luck? Not true. There are many people who were raised in a different faith who converted to the Christian faith. In my case, the way I seemed to have been born a skeptic...i would have questioned my parents faith no matter what it was and in fact, I did as a teenager and young adult. They encouraged me to do so. What I said is true. Your "many people" is a trace compared to the billion people who live in India. That is billion with a B. You know: 1, 000, 000, 000 And let's not forget the people who were raised Christian and become Hindu. And just to the north there are a billion people in China. What is it, one in ten thousand who is a Christian? The remaining 99.99% can burn in hell as far as Jesus cares. Your salvation is a matter of luck. If you were born in the right place and the right time then you will be raised to believe in the right God and get to go to heaven. If you were born in the wrong place or the wrong time then you can burn in hell forever and ever for not knowing any better. If you were such a skeptic then why do you drink the koolaid without question now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 What have I said that is disingenous? I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did. The disingenuous part is highlighted in blue. Blindly accepting is the opposite of questioning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 What have I said that is disingenous? I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did. The disingenuous part is highlighted in blue. Blindly accepting is the opposite of questioning. Where have I blindly accepted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Where have I blindly accepted? 456 posts in a row. God damn it you can't really be this stupid. You are just pretending right? How can you work a keyboard and surf the interwebs if you are really this dumb? My four year old can tell when Dora the Explorer is going down the right path or the wrong path. But you can't figure out what words mean because that might make your religion false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Where have I blindly accepted? 456 posts in a row. God damn it you can't really be this stupid. You are just pretending right? How can you work a keyboard and surf the interwebs if you are really this dumb? My four year old can tell when Dora the Explorer is going down the right path or the wrong path. But you can't figure out what words mean because that might make your religion false. I'm not pretending anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 18, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 18, 2014 Ironhorse, perhaps you would care to define your "relationship" with christ for us. 1. Tell us all the things we missed out on when we had a "relationship" with christ. 2. Explain to us how your "relationship" with christ allows you to overlook what are truly glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. 3. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be the inspired word of god. 4. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be inerrant and infallible? 5. Please explain how your "relationship" with christ allows you to continue believing that the good book is TRUETM, when, by your own admission, it contradicts itself. Yes, Ironhorse, tell us all about your "relationship" with christ. We want to know, because it's not like any of us ever had a "relationship" with him. Don't think I will go away just because you ignore me, TinPony. At least give these questions the old college try, or are you too much of a coward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Ironhorse, perhaps you would care to define your "relationship" with christ for us. 1. Tell us all the things we missed out on when we had a "relationship" with christ. 2. Explain to us how your "relationship" with christ allows you to overlook what are truly glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. 3. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be the inspired word of god. 4. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be inerrant and infallible? 5. Please explain how your "relationship" with christ allows you to continue believing that the good book is TRUETM, when, by your own admission, it contradicts itself. Yes, Ironhorse, tell us all about your "relationship" with christ. We want to know, because it's not like any of us ever had a "relationship" with him. Don't think I will go away just because you ignore me, TinPony. At least give these questions the old college try, or are you too much of a coward? TheRedneckProfessor, I can define my word relationship to Christ in one word...faith. I have answered the questions you have asked several times in previous posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 "how do you critically evaluate which parts of the bible are literally true and which ones aren't?" The devil, for some who are critical of the scriptures, is in the details. They insist that these contradiction invalidates the scripture of any truth. I don't see it that way. I invite you and others to check the link I posted or find other Christian apologetic sites that have studied these contradictions. To answer your question: I view the main message of the Bible as true. The message I take as literal. When I come to passages that contradict other passages, I read and study. I don't have the answer for every bible question. It doesn't deter my belief. My faith is based on my relationship with Christ, not in understanding every so called contradiction or every passage. There's the problem. IH's (and other apologists) "study" is not really an honest study at all. He finally admits that his "studies" are nothing more than him looking for confirmation on what he believes. Confirmation bias is prevalent amongst theists. Ironhorse is a common, and quite expected, example. What is also common is cognitive dissonance, which requires the additional trait of intellectual morality/honesty, even if suppressed. Ironhorse does not exhibit much cognitive dissonance, or it is so repressed that any inkling of it is invisible. If the former (IH doesn't have cognitive dissonance), then that is evidence he is intellectually dishonest and morally deficient. If the later (IH's cognitive dissonance is well suppressed), that could be evidence of many things, such as intense childhood religious indoctrination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 TheRedneckProfessor, I can define my word relationship to Christ in one word...faith. I have answered the questions you have asked several times in previous posts. Religious faith is for cowards, the willfully ignorant, intellectual sloths, those with delusions of self-importance and/or those with emotional dysfunctions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm not pretending anything. Every time somebody mentions a problem with Christianity your answer is you believe it anyway. This is the opposite of questioning. If you were actually questioning your faith then you would uncover more questions and more. Then you would look at this huge mountain of unanswered questions and realize that every single one of them is a doubt. You are turing a blind eye to all of that because you follow Christianity anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 In my case, the way I seemed to have been born a skeptic...i would have questioned my parents faith no matter what it was and in fact, I did as a teenager and young adult. They encouraged me to do so. You really are just full of yourself, aren't you? More likely, you are just full of shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm not pretending anything. Every time somebody mentions a problem with Christianity your answer is you believe it anyway. This is the opposite of questioning. If you were actually questioning your faith then you would uncover more questions and more. Then you would look at this huge mountain of unanswered questions and realize that every single one of them is a doubt. You are turing a blind eye to all of that because you follow Christianity anyway. "Every time somebody mentions a problem with Christianity your answer is you believe it anyway. This is the opposite of questioning." My answers have not been "I believe it anyway" I have tried to answer every question about the Christian faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm not pretending anything. Every time somebody mentions a problem with Christianity your answer is you believe it anyway. This is the opposite of questioning. If you were actually questioning your faith then you would uncover more questions and more. Then you would look at this huge mountain of unanswered questions and realize that every single one of them is a doubt. You are turing a blind eye to all of that because you follow Christianity anyway. "Every time somebody mentions a problem with Christianity your answer is you believe it anyway. This is the opposite of questioning." My answers have not been "I believe it anyway" I have tried to answer every question about the Christian faith. You even lie to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm not pretending anything. Every time somebody mentions a problem with Christianity your answer is you believe it anyway. This is the opposite of questioning. If you were actually questioning your faith then you would uncover more questions and more. Then you would look at this huge mountain of unanswered questions and realize that every single one of them is a doubt. You are turing a blind eye to all of that because you follow Christianity anyway. "Every time somebody mentions a problem with Christianity your answer is you believe it anyway. This is the opposite of questioning." My answers have not been "I believe it anyway" I have tried to answer every question about the Christian faith. You fucking liar. Post #14 "The devil, for some who are critical of the scriptures, is in the details. They insist that these contradiction invalidates the scripture of any truth. I don't see it that way. I invite you and others to check the link I posted or find other Christian apologetic sites that have studied these contradictions. To answer your question: I view the main message of the Bible as true. The message I take as literal. When I come to passages that contradict other passages, I read and study. I don't have the answer for every bible question. It doesn't deter my belief. My faith is based on my relationship with Christ, not in understanding every so called contradiction or every passage." Don't pee on my leg and tell me it is raining. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The delusion runs deep in some christians. IH is a perfect example of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 If you can't show that any religion is right. And you can't show that your religion is any better than the thousands of other religions. And you don't have a single shred of objective evidence. And you religion relies on some book that was mostly written by anonymous men, is filled with nonsense, fantasy, contradictions and shows sigs of both heavy editing and plagiarism of other ancient religions. Then you don't get to pretend that you are being objective and questioning your religion when you cling to that religion you were brainwashed into as a child. Be honest for a change. It won't kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Ironhorse, perhaps you would care to define your "relationship" with christ for us. 1. Tell us all the things we missed out on when we had a "relationship" with christ. 2. Explain to us how your "relationship" with christ allows you to overlook what are truly glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. 3. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be the inspired word of god. 4. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be inerrant and infallible? 5. Please explain how your "relationship" with christ allows you to continue believing that the good book is TRUETM, when, by your own admission, it contradicts itself. Yes, Ironhorse, tell us all about your "relationship" with christ. We want to know, because it's not like any of us ever had a "relationship" with him. Don't think I will go away just because you ignore me, TinPony. At least give these questions the old college try, or are you too much of a coward? TheRedneckProfessor, I can define my word relationship to Christ in one word...faith. I have answered the questions you have asked several times in previous posts. Faith is no reliable path to what is good or true. Muslim terrorists do what they do and believe what they believe on faith as well. So faith, itself, is no reliable foundation for anything. It is tantamount to wishful thinking. This is the fundamental difference between you and us. If you want faith as the foundation of your beliefs, fine. You can have it. But don't pretend you are a skeptic and that you critically evaluate everything including your Christian beliefs, then turn around and say you base your beliefs on faith. These two approaches to belief are in direct contradiction to one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 If you can't show that any religion is right. And you can't show that your religion is any better than the thousands of other religions. And you don't have a single shred of objective evidence. And you religion relies on some book that was mostly written by anonymous men, is filled with nonsense, fantasy, contradictions and shows sigs of both heavy editing and plagiarism of other ancient religions. Then you don't get to pretend that you are being objective and questioning your religion when you cling to that religion you were brainwashed into as a child. Be honest for a change. It won't kill you. I am honest. There is nothing I could say to you that would convince you to believe anything. We all make our choices. I can't prove scientifically God exist. I can't answer every question about the Bible. I can't explain every so called contradiction in scriptures. I can't prove Jesus rose from the dead. I can't prove any of this with a concrete answer. I have been honest about my faith and that I have searched all around for the truth. I have accepted by faith that Jesus of Nazareth was telling the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Ironhorse, it's nice that you have your faith experience. Why your experience should be relevant to us, I cannot fathom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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