Jump to content

Well, Why Did He Wait?


Castiel233
 Share

Recommended Posts

If we allow that Christianity is true, why did God wait approx 4000 years after the death of Adam to the Birth of Christ to redeem the world, from the Sin He fostered upon it. Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

 

Also when Jesus said everyone who came before Him was a liar, he must have been including the OT writers and prophets, because He used the word, "everyone".

 

Also why the delay in writing the NT, even the earliest books are written around  20 years after the Crucifixion. Thats like someone dying in 1994 and we are just starting to write about it now. I can barely remember what I was doing 20 years ago, let alone record a history of other peoples events. Some books are dated much later, and the NT is generally regarded as a finished (although not complete and edited)  article around 150 AD, so about 120 years after the Crucifixion. So again to put it in a modern setting, parts of the NT were written in 2014 yet the writers were dealing with events in 1884.

 

How did they know what was going on, did God whisper to them, take them back in time, appear to them in a dream?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, what about those stories like jesus being tempted in the dessert alone with satan?  How did the author know about what happened?

 

Or when jesus was being tried by the jewish authorities?  Who wrote that down?

 

Or how about when the disciples fell asleep and jesus prayed alone?  How did they know what happened when they were sleeping?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's myth. Once you start examining it rationally, it collapses, but it was never meant to examined rationally, just like any superhero movie. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even the whole concept of god reconciling gentile and jew. So fo rlike, 4000 years, the jews are keeping these absurd laws ( seriously, no bacon? ) that apparently came right from the burning ember of god's finger. They have to stone each other, and all manner of absurd rituals, because they are the chosen ones. trusted with everything god-ish.

 

Then suddenly, after millenia of rules and regulations ( what was it, 613! ) so important that it was the only way to identify god, some guy comes along and is all like "Yeah, about that... Umm, my dad and I don;t need y'all to do that anymore. We made you do that until I got here, so now, if you keep doing it, you're relying on the wrong stuff and will go to hell. So stop it already, I've got an easier system. I totally didn;t mean forever when I said forever guys."

 

Suddenly jews are to be like gentiles, reviled and accused for doing what they were told, in not believing Jesus was the messiah. But wait! They were destined to not believe, so that gentiles could take over the reigns. It's all so ridiculous that supreme god would behave in such an irrational, arbitrary manner. I consider people who behave this way to be a-holes.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

 

Or the Virgin Birth... Mary is the only person in history who will ever really know.

only person?

 

Good point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Suddenly jews are to be like gentiles, reviled and accused for doing what they were told, in not believing Jesus was the messiah. But wait! They were destined to not believe, so that gentiles could take over the reigns. It's all so ridiculous that supreme god would behave in such an irrational, arbitrary manner. I consider people who behave this way to be a-holes."

 

When I was De converting I read a pretty good book that made the case much of pauls writings were politically motivated. When he provided context, it made perfect sense:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-New-Testament-Christian/dp/0060655186/ref=la_B000APXVBU_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405524192&sr=1-1

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Also when Jesus said everyone who came before Him was a liar, he must have been including the OT writers and prophets, because He used the word, "everyone".

 

Where did he say that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Also when Jesus said everyone who came before Him was a liar, he must have been including the OT writers and prophets, because He used the word, "everyone".

 

Where did he say that?

 

Sorry, my mistake, He said thieves and robbers, (john 10:8) but the point still stands

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

 

If you're curious about what the Bible actually says about this, read Romans 4 (with some more in Galatians 3). Essentially, Paul says that Abraham was justified by faith credited to him as righteousness. You could extend that argument to anyone else in the OT time frame who had faith. I was generally taught that Christ died for the sins of both those who came before and after him (salvation can travel back in time!), but after reading the text now, it doesn't actually say whether Christ played any role in "justifying" Abraham. Therefore, the Bible's official view is that Abraham was saved by faith in something somehow, not by his works.Paul only mentions Christ's salvation for contemporary believers in Romans 4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we allow that Christianity is true, why did God wait approx 4000 years after the death of Adam to the Birth of Christ to redeem the world, from the Sin He fostered upon it. Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

 

Also when Jesus said everyone who came before Him was a liar, he must have been including the OT writers and prophets, because He used the word, "everyone".

 

Also why the delay in writing the NT, even the earliest books are written around  20 years after the Crucifixion. Thats like someone dying in 1994 and we are just starting to write about it now. I can barely remember what I was doing 20 years ago, let alone record a history of other peoples events. Some books are dated much later, and the NT is generally regarded as a finished (although not complete and edited)  article around 150 AD, so about 120 years after the Crucifixion. So again to put it in a modern setting, parts of the NT were written in 2014 yet the writers were dealing with events in 1884.

 

How did they know what was going on, did God whisper to them, take them back in time, appear to them in a dream?

 

better yet is why did he put millions of years worth of geological evidence against such a young planet and race if he was just gonna lie about it on paper later?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

 

If you're curious about what the Bible actually says about this, read Romans 4 (with some more in Galatians 3). Essentially, Paul says that Abraham was justified by faith credited to him as righteousness. You could extend that argument to anyone else in the OT time frame who had faith. I was generally taught that Christ died for the sins of both those who came before and after him (salvation can travel back in time!), but after reading the text now, it doesn't actually say whether Christ played any role in "justifying" Abraham. Therefore, the Bible's official view is that Abraham was saved by faith in something somehow, not by his works.Paul only mentions Christ's salvation for contemporary believers in Romans 4.

 

 

I'm from a Lutheran background, and we still hold some of the Catholic dogma, so let me tell you what our creed (which I recited every Sunday for decades) says and what pastors have told me about this: "...He died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day, he rose again..." During his time in hell on those three days (well, it wasn't really three full days, but whatever), he went to hell to redeem all the righteous souls who had died before, according to my pastors. In Catholic art (yes, I have a degree in art history and was particularly good at the religious art of the first 1500 years based on my bible knowledge as a good little Lutheran girl), paintings of this are titled "The Harrowing of Hell." When I tried to research this concept back in college (it was new to me as a Lutheran), I found very little information. And nothing in the bible, unless I just didn't know where to look. (This was pre-internet, so it's probably easy to find now.)

 

So to answer your question: While Jesus's body was in the grave, his soul (or whatever) went down to hell and pulled up all the righteous souls from the past.

 

In other words, in my opinion, the early church fathers stumbled upon this problem and just made stuff up to make it work out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Assuming the preaching to souls in Hell is true, it follows (surely) that those poor unfortunates got to escape from Hell, so Hell is not forever after all ( I am aware that Hell is not the final destination for 99 % of humanity, rather it is the "second death" of which Gods "love" cleanses us of His presence.....or rather cleanses Him of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

Paul only mentions Christ's salvation for contemporary believers in Romans 4.

 

This is one of the strange tenants of the faith. If salvation wasn't needed prior to Christ, why introduce it.....if it is an absolute necessity, why wait such a long time........if it works backwards through time, well than all bets are off. Again to stick with salvation, my understanding is as follows:

 

You must believe in Jesus as the Son of God (so Satan qualifies) 

You must be baptised (Everyone who gets the memo qualifies)

Be infused with the holy spirit (out of your hands really)

Be a member of the elect(again out of your hands)

 

The baptism thing, while doable and understandable (in terms of its instruction, rather than any metaphysics) is rendered extremely cruel, considering you must be baptised to go through those magic, golden gates  and yet millions of babies have surely died without the magic water and words and therefore ended up in Hell.........to be followed by an eternity of burning. This is perhaps the very pinnacle of Christian nastiness....the eternal  torture of infants

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

 

If you're curious about what the Bible actually says about this, read Romans 4 (with some more in Galatians 3). Essentially, Paul says that Abraham was justified by faith credited to him as righteousness. You could extend that argument to anyone else in the OT time frame who had faith. I was generally taught that Christ died for the sins of both those who came before and after him (salvation can travel back in time!), but after reading the text now, it doesn't actually say whether Christ played any role in "justifying" Abraham. Therefore, the Bible's official view is that Abraham was saved by faith in something somehow, not by his works.Paul only mentions Christ's salvation for contemporary believers in Romans 4.

 

 

I'm from a Lutheran background, and we still hold some of the Catholic dogma, so let me tell you what our creed (which I recited every Sunday for decades) says and what pastors have told me about this: "...He died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day, he rose again..." During his time in hell on those three days (well, it wasn't really three full days, but whatever), he went to hell to redeem all the righteous souls who had died before, according to my pastors. In Catholic art (yes, I have a degree in art history and was particularly good at the religious art of the first 1500 years based on my bible knowledge as a good little Lutheran girl), paintings of this are titled "The Harrowing of Hell." When I tried to research this concept back in college (it was new to me as a Lutheran), I found very little information. And nothing in the bible, unless I just didn't know where to look. (This was pre-internet, so it's probably easy to find now.)

 

So to answer your question: While Jesus's body was in the grave, his soul (or whatever) went down to hell and pulled up all the righteous souls from the past.

 

In other words, in my opinion, the early church fathers stumbled upon this problem and just made stuff up to make it work out.

 

Church fathers making stuff up!!!!!!!!!!! surely not! : )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

"better yet is why did he put millions of years worth of geological evidence against such a young planet and race if he was just gonna lie about it on paper later?"

 

According to the late comedian Bill Hicks, its because He is a prankster God 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

"better yet is why did he put millions of years worth of geological evidence against such a young planet and race if he was just gonna lie about it on paper later?"

 

According to the late comedian Bill Hicks, its because He is a prankster God 

 

 

 

So am I but that isn't a prank its a fucking lie bold and clear. No two ways about it. You tell your followers to believe you in all things, well I say he fucked that up rightly good.

 

So believe me just don't believe anything including the greater universe any science or physical evidence that we can see with our eyes...

 

Sorry prankster aside if this was the truth who would follow such an asshat?

 

That is like Bieber level stooopeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This question of the "Harrowing of Hell" has been on my mind now, darn it. I do recall asking pastors how it was fair for the righteous to have been in hell for 4000 years, if hell is so bad; seems like they deserved better than that. One pastor told me that there is no element of time with God -- so in some cosmic mind-twist they weren't really there for 4000 years but more like an instantaneous thing outside of time and space, where they died and then Jesus somehow instantly saved them retroactively or something. Ummm... OK, yeah, make up whatever makes you fell better, dude.

 

Another pastor told me they were not specifically in hell, but "asleep in the grave". So their souls were in the grave sleeping within their rotting corpses, I guess. I tried to pin him down if it was some sort of holding area, like Limbo or Purgatory, but of course both of those concepts are forbidden as Lutherans, so the conversation (if I recall correctly) ended with the usual "don't worry about it God has it all figured out" summation.

 

But then there's the third pastor I mentioned who said Jesus went to hell while he was in the grave those three days to show the devil that he had conquered sin, and to rescue the righteous. So I guess they really were in hell?

 

I mean, what the hell? (Literally)

 

More making stuff up to feel better. Like everything else that's hard for them to justify or explain away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even the whole concept of god reconciling gentile and jew. So fo rlike, 4000 years, the jews are keeping these absurd laws ( seriously, no bacon? ) that apparently came right from the burning ember of god's finger. They have to stone each other, and all manner of absurd rituals, because they are the chosen ones. trusted with everything god-ish.

 

Then suddenly, after millenia of rules and regulations ( what was it, 613! ) so important that it was the only way to identify god, some guy comes along and is all like "Yeah, about that... Umm, my dad and I don;t need y'all to do that anymore. We made you do that until I got here, so now, if you keep doing it, you're relying on the wrong stuff and will go to hell. So stop it already, I've got an easier system. I totally didn;t mean forever when I said forever guys."

 

Suddenly jews are to be like gentiles, reviled and accused for doing what they were told, in not believing Jesus was the messiah. But wait! They were destined to not believe, so that gentiles could take over the reigns. It's all so ridiculous that supreme god would behave in such an irrational, arbitrary manner. I consider people who behave this way to be a-holes.

 

I was taught that the Law was to be upheld...well, certain parts of it anyway. The Israelites were the chosen people. However, they shunned the Messiah and that is why Paul and the other disciples were sent to the Gentiles. Jesus' essential message to the Israelites was not that the Law was not important; it was the Law was not AS important as they made it out to be. The Jewish leaders had elevated the Law above the Faith and had plenty of absurd rules that weren't found in scripture.

 

The takeaway from all of this is that it doesn't really matter if you are Jew or a Gentile. We are all grafted into the family tree when we accept Jesus as messiah. Whoo hoo! Except for those who don't believe. We're to be damned forever and ever. Boo....

 

 

If we allow that Christianity is true, why did God wait approx 4000 years after the death of Adam to the Birth of Christ to redeem the world, from the Sin He fostered upon it. Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

 

Also when Jesus said everyone who came before Him was a liar, he must have been including the OT writers and prophets, because He used the word, "everyone".

 

Also why the delay in writing the NT, even the earliest books are written around  20 years after the Crucifixion. Thats like someone dying in 1994 and we are just starting to write about it now. I can barely remember what I was doing 20 years ago, let alone record a history of other peoples events. Some books are dated much later, and the NT is generally regarded as a finished (although not complete and edited)  article around 150 AD, so about 120 years after the Crucifixion. So again to put it in a modern setting, parts of the NT were written in 2014 yet the writers were dealing with events in 1884.

 

How did they know what was going on, did God whisper to them, take them back in time, appear to them in a dream?

 

Well, there was that time that God killed EVERYONE in a horrible flood. And that time that he wiped two towns off of the map for being wicked. There's the matter of the firstborns of Egypt too. Possibly those babies that he let Herod kill...so yeah, this God...I don't think he had a cogent plan for the souls that he created. The guy had time to count hairs and have meddlesome juvenile bets with Satan, but as far as the big stuff, nah. Pft, too much work for him. 4,000 years later though, he made himself a son and crucified him. Suddenly there was a band-aid for human sin. Suddenly the souls of all who had died were in this place called Valhalla Heaven!

 

As for those witness accounts called the Good News...they're bogus. Complete and utter bullshit. A collection of parable, with some history sprinkled throughout and plenty of passion play theatrics thrown in. One cannot separate the wheat from the chafe when it comes to the NT. Even the Epistles are contested and those are supposedly the best of the best, the gold standard of NT writings. No one knows for certain who wrote what or why. Some of it is highly political; some is highly esoteric and there are bits of history and prophesy and woe is me twitter-esque crap strewn throughout it. I'd argue that there is no wheat in the NT. It's all chafe, until proven otherwise. The same as the rest of the holy book.

 

I suspect that these questions of why God did or didn't do this or that have no satisfactory answers. They are mostly in the realm of speculative fiction, imo. It's like asking why Dumbledore didn't intervene in Harry's life if he knew what kind of people the Dursleys were. Or why did Captain Kirk choose to risk everything to bait the Romulans when there was so much at stake. Any good fiction will lead to speculation and doubt. Bad fiction also does those things, but it takes itself too seriously to allow for true introspection, conflict and debate. That's why apologia continues to this day. Groups of small-minded and scared twits making the same tired-ass arguments based around the same bullshit speculative premises that Paul and his followers were using back in their day, 1,900 years ago.

 

Sure, they may put fresh lipstick on their Biblical pigs and throw some science-y flair around to make it more appealing to their audiences, but at the end of the day, the arguments are always flawed because they assume that there must be a God at the top making decisions that get passed along to the bottom. It's a faulty assumption and it is quite laughable when one considers that the "best evidence" they present for their "man at the top" theory is a book that was written by an untold number of men who had varying backgrounds, political motivations, native tongues, and ideologies, during many different time periods, that has been pieced together, torn apart, translated, re-translated, quoted and misquoted and meme-ified. That's it.

 

Summary:

 

God doesn't do or not do anything, if such a God even exists. It is unlikely that it does and in the event that any solid evidence is ever found of such a God's existence, we will only be able to remove a single stone from the foundation of our un/dis/non-belief in such a being. It would still have to be demonstrated that he has powers, controls the outcome of events, has involvement in human affairs, etc. The best course of action, imho, is to stop asking why things don't add up when it comes to God and his holey word. Start asking yourself what it is important to you and focus on that instead. smile.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I suspect that these questions of why God did or didn't do this or that have no satisfactory answers. They are mostly in the realm of speculative fiction, imo. It's like asking why Dumbledore didn't intervene in Harry's life if he knew what kind of people the Dursleys were.

 

 

 

 

 

Great Metaphor. Love it 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we allow that Christianity is true, why did God wait approx 4000 years after the death of Adam to the Birth of Christ to redeem the world, from the Sin He fostered upon it. Did everyone between Adam and Jesus go to Hell, if not, why not, because only through Christ can people be saved from Hell.

 

Also when Jesus said everyone who came before Him was a liar, he must have been including the OT writers and prophets, because He used the word, "everyone".

 

Also why the delay in writing the NT, even the earliest books are written around  20 years after the Crucifixion. Thats like someone dying in 1994 and we are just starting to write about it now. I can barely remember what I was doing 20 years ago, let alone record a history of other peoples events. Some books are dated much later, and the NT is generally regarded as a finished (although not complete and edited)  article around 150 AD, so about 120 years after the Crucifixion. So again to put it in a modern setting, parts of the NT were written in 2014 yet the writers were dealing with events in 1884.

 

How did they know what was going on, did God whisper to them, take them back in time, appear to them in a dream?

 

As regards your first question, I suppose from a dispensationalist standpoint the answer would be so that god could test humanity under various economies (innocence, moral conscience, law being the main accepted divisions) and humanity could be proven to be a failure such that the intervention of Christ would be proven to be the only path left - which would then redound to god's glory as it would be demonstrated that he was doing what no-one else could do.

 

That idea is regarded as still in operation (grace is the present dispensation; the kingdom is next in line and the eternal state rounds everything off in due course; all bar the last is thought to be destined to end in humanity's proven failure to obey god's commandments).

 

So, basically god wanted to demonstrate to himself and to those he was manipulating that he was such a clever little chap that only he could cure the almighty mess that he - in his infinite foreknowledge - has desperately been trying to show was not his fault in the first place.  We, as mere playthings, are too unimportant to figure as anything save as the tools by which god tickles his own ego.

 

I've no idea how a non-dispensationalist would rationalize this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.