Salvation Based On Faith?

[seven77]

Acceptance with God does not depend on attainment of a standard of perfection that is humanly impossible to attain. Salvation is given as a gift, but like all gifts, it has to be accepted.

It involves repentance and putting our trust in God as a deliberate act of our will.

 

The logic of this is important, since the original fall or rebellion involved the opposite, a lack of trust and grasping at independence from God.

The way back therefore inevitable involves a change of that attitude, trusting God again.

 

Some people say it’s not fair that they should suffer because of what one man (Adam) did, and they would be right.

So that’s why Paul says ‘ through one mans disobedience the many where made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one many will be made righteous.

 

You don’t have to earn, it’s a gift.

 

In James, there is no contradiction between works and faith.

Faith without works is dead means that if you have faith for  salvation there will be an outward showing of change.

 

Hence, someone can’t just go ‘I’ll live how I want and then repent on my deathbed’.

If anyone thought ike that, they don’t know God and don’t care either.

It takes a change of heart, such as the criminal on the cross next to Jesus.

 

I am surprised at these questions and answers this being an ‘Ex-Christian forum, as this is basic 101 stuff. 

 

This reminds me a lot of my time spent in the fold. My old church taught this sort of doctrine to the beginner. However, the practice was far different. Works were praised highly. Faith amounted to no more than nodding along with sermons. What really mattered was how "on fire" you were for whatever version of Christ they were shilling that week or month.

 

Those changes of heart you speak of are usually careful string-pulls by those in charge. I've wept as I realized my sin and hugged my "brothers and sisters in Christ" after baptism. I sang along to worship tunes and repented for my sins 100x times over. Did I know God? Did I not care enough?

 

I suppose not, since my heart wasn't changed enough to stay in the program. I have heard this before from my ex-mentor and some of my old friends. It is a bitter pill to swallow. It boils down to believing the "Truth" (the trinity, Jesus dying for our sins, relationship with the Lord changing us, miracles, fallen man, etc) or seeing the world for what it really is: a bunch of people, a great many of whom believe in phantom paternal figures and life after death, trying to live in a world full of pain, despair, and imperfection. There isn't a better day around the corner. Some of us aren't going to be healed from affliction. There isn't such a thing as Hell to punish the baddies and Heaven to reward the goodies. The Bible has no more to offer on the topics of truth and moral guidance than Uncle John's Bathroom Reader.

 

God didn't make us; we made God. I believe that and that's my truth. Reality trumps fantasy, imho.

 

As for salvation being a gift, well, thanks but no thanks. I don't want anyone to kill themselves (If Jesus and the Father were one, then God committed suicide upon the cross) or to kill someone else on my behalf (If Jesus and the Father were not one, then Jesus was killed as a punishment by the Romans and God let it happen).

 

What logic is there in God's plan, really? Let's say he created humanity. Let's also say that he knows all, sees all and knows the future. He desires a relationship with us, beings that live in uncertainty. Beings that are not all-knowing, all-seeing or eternal. Beings that have no way of seeing the future and aren't very smart about a great deal of things. He created us that way and he wants a relationship. Our will doesn't enter into the equation until AFTER we "rebel". I hardly consider eating a piece of fruit to be a rebellion and less so if we follow the biblical narrative given in the second creation account in the book of Genesis. A woman who KNEW NOTHING OUTSIDE OF WHAT GOD AND HER HUSBAND HAD TOLD HER was foolish enough to listen to a talking snake. She ate a piece of fruit from the forbidden tree and bam! pains in childbirth, toil in the soil, and banishment from the garden.

 

That is not love. It is most certainly not relationship. If it is, I do not want it. I do not want to be in a relationship with a control freak who has ultimate, unlimited power, yet chooses (and yes, it is a choice on God's behalf) to watch me and my kind suffer. I do not want to be in a relationship with a being who has no understanding of what it is like to be human. I do not desire a relationship with a being that can be so cruel, yet cowardly. A being that could (and has, according to the accounts of the flood given in Genesis) destroy the planet and all of life, yet gladly sends his chosen people to wage holy wars, indiscriminately exterminating peoples for the heck of it.

 

There is nothing free about salvation and it is not a gift. If anything, it was bought and paid for with blood. The blood of ancient peoples and the blood of the godman Yeshua Christos upon the cross, and the blood of those throughout history since. I do not want it.

 

Christianity 101 does not exist. If it did, there wouldn't be 40k and counting versions of it in the world. We'd all be good Catholics or observant Jews or Jehovah's Witnesses or Anglicans or Methodists or Southern Baptists....or whatever version of the Christ-passion-fantasy tickles your pickle at a given time.

[sdelsolray]

You cant just dismiss 'I believe' every time. I don’t mean it like a television evangelist 'I beeeeellliiievvvvee!!

 

...

 

 

Of course not.  I'll repeat, more or less, what I said in another post.  No one is disputing your claim that you believe in certain supernatural beings and related religious dogma.  You can safely assume that you have provided sufficient evidence to conclude that it is highly likely that that you believe in such things.

 

 

...

If I jump of a building I believe I will hit the ground and get hurt

I believe Hitler was an evil man

I believe if I break the law, I could be arrested.

 

They are truths, and I believe them.

 

A poor analogy is a poor analogy.  As to the three above "beliefs", most folks would agree because each is a mundane and natural item for which sufficient empirical evidence exists to all to verify the statements.

 

On the other hand, you have not yet provided any relevant evidence as to the truth of the content of your personal beliefs in certain sky fairies and related religious dogma.  Again, we know you believe them but that does not demonstrate they are correct, true or actually exist in reality.

 

You attempt to equate the three mundane and natural-based beliefs with your extraordinary and supernatural beliefs in particular sky fairies and related religious dogma is observed and rejected.

[RipVanWinkle]

" My only point was that I found it interesting that the NT verse about "fine linen" was not quoted much if at all"  Aggie

 

 

Aggie: Tell me what "fine linen" scripture you are referring to  I remember the phrase bur not its context. bill

[RipVanWinkle]

Gus If you were to, in good faith,sincerely, and honestly, change your mind about scripture being inspired by god, would you go to hell?   bill

[mymistake]

You cant just dismiss 'I believe' every time. I don’t mean it like a television evangelist 'I beeeeellliiievvvvee!!

 

If I jump of a building I believe I will hit the ground and get hurt

I believe Hitler was an evil man

I believe if I break the law, I could be arrested.

 

They are truths, and I believe them.

 

If you believe and idea that is a coincidence to whether or not the idea is true.

 

 

 

Acceptance with God does not depend on attainment of a standard of perfection that is humanly impossible to attain. Salvation is given as a gift, but like all gifts, it has to be accepted.

It involves repentance and putting our trust in God as a deliberate act of our will.

 

The logic of this is important, since the original fall or rebellion involved the opposite, a lack of trust and grasping at independence from God.

The way back therefore inevitable involves a change of that attitude, trusting God again.

 

Some people say it’s not fair that they should suffer because of what one man (Adam) did, and they would be right.

So that’s why Paul says ‘ through one mans disobedience the many where made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one many will be made righteous.

 

You don’t have to earn, it’s a gift.

 

In James, there is no contradiction between works and faith.

Faith without works is dead means that if you have faith for  salvation there will be an outward showing of change.

 

Hence, someone can’t just go ‘I’ll live how I want and then repent on my deathbed’.

If anyone thought ike that, they don’t know God and don’t care either.

It takes a change of heart, such as the criminal on the cross next to Jesus.

 

I am surprised at these questions and answers this being an ‘Ex-Christian forum, as this is basic 101 stuff. 

 

Pure bullshit.  Jesus stands at the door knocking in the hope that we open to door so that Jesus can save us from what Jesus is going to do to us if we don't open the door.  It's all marketing and spin and lies.  There was no "original fall".  Don't base your life around the Tooth Fairy.  Nobody knows God because you can't know something that is imaginary.

[centauri]

 

Acceptance with God does not depend on attainment of a standard of perfection that is humanly impossible to attain. Salvation is given as a gift, but like all gifts, it has to be accepted.

It involves repentance and putting our trust in God as a deliberate act of our will.

It's given as a gift if you perform the proper tasks, such as being baptized, repenting, confessing with your mouth, and if you do some good works.

It's only a free gift if you've been predestined to salvation.

In that case you don't have to do anything.

 

You don’t have to earn, it’s a gift.

Outside of predestination, one has to earn salvation.

Any required action, even belief, is done by the individual and hence they earn salvation by performing these actions.

 

In James, there is no contradiction between works and faith.

Faith without works is dead means that if you have faith for  salvation there will be an outward showing of change.

If faith without works is dead, then salvation is dead as well.

Jesus made this pretty clear in Matt 25, where he said that some good works were needed to be considered a true member of his flock.

 

I am surprised at these questions and answers this being an ‘Ex-Christian forum, as this is basic 101 stuff. 

If it was basic 101 stuff, one would think there would be a Christian consensus on predestination, the need to be baptized, and if salvation requires an on going affiliation with a church or sect.

I see no such consensus in Christian theology.

[Deidre]

Definitely helps to explain why there's so much poverty and depravity in our world. Our predominantly ''Christian'' world.

 

If it weren't so sad, it might...be funny.

[midniterider]

Acceptance with God does not depend on attainment of a standard of perfection that is humanly impossible to attain. Salvation is given as a gift, but like all gifts, it has to be accepted.

It involves repentance and putting our trust in God as a deliberate act of our will.

 

The logic of this is important, since the original fall or rebellion involved the opposite, a lack of trust and grasping at independence from God.

The way back therefore inevitable involves a change of that attitude, trusting God again.

 

Some people say it’s not fair that they should suffer because of what one man (Adam) did, and they would be right.

So that’s why Paul says ‘ through one mans disobedience the many where made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one many will be made righteous.

 

You don’t have to earn, it’s a gift.

 

In James, there is no contradiction between works and faith.

Faith without works is dead means that if you have faith for  salvation there will be an outward showing of change.

 

Hence, someone can’t just go ‘I’ll live how I want and then repent on my deathbed’.

If anyone thought ike that, they don’t know God and don’t care either.

It takes a change of heart, such as the criminal on the cross next to Jesus.

 

I am surprised at these questions and answers this being an ‘Ex-Christian forum, as this is basic 101 stuff. 

 

BS101.

[Deidre]

Acceptance with God does not depend on attainment of a standard of perfection that is humanly impossible to attain. Salvation is given as a gift, but like all gifts, it has to be accepted.

It involves repentance and putting our trust in God as a deliberate act of our will.

 

The logic of this is important, since the original fall or rebellion involved the opposite, a lack of trust and grasping at independence from God.

The way back therefore inevitable involves a change of that attitude, trusting God again.

 

Some people say it’s not fair that they should suffer because of what one man (Adam) did, and they would be right.

So that’s why Paul says ‘ through one mans disobedience the many where made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one many will be made righteous.

 

You don’t have to earn, it’s a gift.

 

In James, there is no contradiction between works and faith.

Faith without works is dead means that if you have faith for  salvation there will be an outward showing of change.

 

Hence, someone can’t just go ‘I’ll live how I want and then repent on my deathbed’.

If anyone thought ike that, they don’t know God and don’t care either.

It takes a change of heart, such as the criminal on the cross next to Jesus.

 

I am surprised at these questions and answers this being an ‘Ex-Christian forum, as this is basic 101 stuff. 

There was no original fall. Most Christian denominations teach (after years of back pedaling) that Genesis should be viewed as a metaphor, and not taken literally. Once you remove the literal truth from it, it becomes nothing to hinge anything else within the Bible on. There was no 'original sin.' There was no need for a human, therefore, to be sacrificed to attone the world of it. There is no validity to the NT, if the OT is a bunch of bs. (and it is)

 

You shouldn't be allowed to evangelize on here. (?)

[rach]

 

This reminds me a lot of my time spent in the fold. My old church taught this sort of doctrine to the beginner. However, the practice was far different. Works were praised highly. Faith amounted to no more than nodding along with sermons. What really mattered was how "on fire" you were for whatever version of Christ they were shilling that week or month.

 

Those changes of heart you speak of are usually careful string-pulls by those in charge. I've wept as I realized my sin and hugged my "brothers and sisters in Christ" after baptism. I sang along to worship tunes and repented for my sins 100x times over. Did I know God? Did I not care enough?

 

I suppose not, since my heart wasn't changed enough to stay in the program. I have heard this before from my ex-mentor and some of my old friends. It is a bitter pill to swallow. It boils down to believing the "Truth" (the trinity, Jesus dying for our sins, relationship with the Lord changing us, miracles, fallen man, etc) or seeing the world for what it really is: a bunch of people, a great many of whom believe in phantom paternal figures and life after death, trying to live in a world full of pain, despair, and imperfection. There isn't a better day around the corner. Some of us aren't going to be healed from affliction. There isn't such a thing as Hell to punish the baddies and Heaven to reward the goodies. The Bible has no more to offer on the topics of truth and moral guidance than Uncle John's Bathroom Reader.

 

God didn't make us; we made God. I believe that and that's my truth. Reality trumps fantasy, imho.

 

As for salvation being a gift, well, thanks but no thanks. I don't want anyone to kill themselves (If Jesus and the Father were one, then God committed suicide upon the cross) or to kill someone else on my behalf (If Jesus and the Father were not one, then Jesus was killed as a punishment by the Romans and God let it happen).

 

What logic is there in God's plan, really? Let's say he created humanity. Let's also say that he knows all, sees all and knows the future. He desires a relationship with us, beings that live in uncertainty. Beings that are not all-knowing, all-seeing or eternal. Beings that have no way of seeing the future and aren't very smart about a great deal of things. He created us that way and he wants a relationship. Our will doesn't enter into the equation until AFTER we "rebel". I hardly consider eating a piece of fruit to be a rebellion and less so if we follow the biblical narrative given in the second creation account in the book of Genesis. A woman who KNEW NOTHING OUTSIDE OF WHAT GOD AND HER HUSBAND HAD TOLD HER was foolish enough to listen to a talking snake. She ate a piece of fruit from the forbidden tree and bam! pains in childbirth, toil in the soil, and banishment from the garden.

 

That is not love. It is most certainly not relationship. If it is, I do not want it. I do not want to be in a relationship with a control freak who has ultimate, unlimited power, yet chooses (and yes, it is a choice on God's behalf) to watch me and my kind suffer. I do not want to be in a relationship with a being who has no understanding of what it is like to be human. I do not desire a relationship with a being that can be so cruel, yet cowardly. A being that could (and has, according to the accounts of the flood given in Genesis) destroy the planet and all of life, yet gladly sends his chosen people to wage holy wars, indiscriminately exterminating peoples for the heck of it.

 

There is nothing free about salvation and it is not a gift. If anything, it was bought and paid for with blood. The blood of ancient peoples and the blood of the godman Yeshua Christos upon the cross, and the blood of those throughout history since. I do not want it.

 

Christianity 101 does not exist. If it did, there wouldn't be 40k and counting versions of it in the world. We'd all be good Catholics or observant Jews or Jehovah's Witnesses or Anglicans or Methodists or Southern Baptists....or whatever version of the Christ-passion-fantasy tickles your pickle at a given time.

 

This is one of the best and most logical posts I've ever read on the topic of Christianity   I agree, I do not want this "free gift" anymore that I once accepted.  They say that nothing's actually ever free.  When something is being advertised as a free gift watch out, there have to be strings attached somewhere.  The gift of salvation- if it exists at all- cannot be free.  It came after torturing Jesus to death and before that millions of years of suffering on earth.  If there was a God wanting us to have a free salvation then why doesn't he just beam us up into heaven?  Why leave us here on planet earth where we will undergo extreme hardships, we will all fall of something, some will be stricken with diseases others will be brutally murdered.  It would seem that if Christianity is true, God is forcing the people to pay for their salvation by suffering here on earth.  This is confirmed by the scripture in Collosions where Paul wrote these words "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."  So the Jesus payment was not enough, according to the scripture, other individuals must suffer as well for the payment for salvation.  It also is shown in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man where Lazarus goes to heaven only as a reward or comfort for his suffering on earth.  Bible God's method, then, is not free.  It comes at a price of pain and bloodshed and that price- is too high. 

 

[Aggie]

" My only point was that I found it interesting that the NT verse about "fine linen" was not quoted much if at all"  Aggie

 

 

Aggie: Tell me what "fine linen" scripture you are referring to  I remember the phrase bur not its context. bill

 

Bill,

Here it is.  (It may not be significant to a lot of folks, but for me it was a touchstone for the idea that the Bible seems to "prove" everything and nothing...)

 

Rev 19:7-8

Let us rejoice and exult

   and give him the glory,

for the marriage of the Lamb has come,

   and his bride has made herself ready; 

to her it has been granted to be clothed

   with fine linen, bright and pure’—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

[pawn]

 

Acceptance with God does not depend on attainment of a standard of perfection that is humanly impossible to attain. Salvation is given as a gift, but like all gifts, it has to be accepted.

It involves repentance and putting our trust in God as a deliberate act of our will.

 

The logic of this is important, since the original fall or rebellion involved the opposite, a lack of trust and grasping at independence from God.

The way back therefore inevitable involves a change of that attitude, trusting God again.

 

Some people say it’s not fair that they should suffer because of what one man (Adam) did, and they would be right.

So that’s why Paul says ‘ through one mans disobedience the many where made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one many will be made righteous.

 

You don’t have to earn, it’s a gift.

 

In James, there is no contradiction between works and faith.

Faith without works is dead means that if you have faith for  salvation there will be an outward showing of change.

 

Hence, someone can’t just go ‘I’ll live how I want and then repent on my deathbed’.

If anyone thought ike that, they don’t know God and don’t care either.

It takes a change of heart, such as the criminal on the cross next to Jesus.

 

I am surprised at these questions and answers this being an ‘Ex-Christian forum, as this is basic 101 stuff. 

gee thanks. We've never heard any of those platitudes before. Now that we use derstand, surely we'll turn back to God and accept this wonderful gift and all the strings claimed not attached.

 

   Gus' response sounds like something a 4th grade kid would say after gradutaing from sunday school.  It is hilarious how stupid this drivel is.