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Slavery, Rape, And Genocide


Roz
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For Gus and all the other christian apologists.

 

Slavery:

Lev. 25.  It talks about how Israelites deal with property rights and all that, and for the first half christians will nod their heads and say 'amen' when Moses goes on talking about how property is to be handled. 

 


(verse)25 ‘If one of your brethren becomes poor, and has sold some of his possession, and if his redeeming relative comes to redeem it, then he may redeem what his brother sold. 26 Or if the man has no one to redeem it, but he himself becomes able to redeem it, 27 then let him count the years since its sale, and restore the remainder to the man to whom he sold it, that he may return to his possession. 28 But if he is not able to have it restored to himself, then what was sold shall remain in the hand of him who bought it until the Year of Jubilee; and in the Jubilee it shall be released, and he shall return to his possession.

No problems at all with that stuff?  This says "one of your brethren" meaning one of your fellow hebrews. 

 

 

29 ‘If a man sells a house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold; within a full year he may redeem it. 30 But if it is not redeemed within the space of a full year, then the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to him who bought it, throughout his generations. It shall not be released in the Jubilee. 31 However the houses of villages which have no wall around them shall be counted as the fields of the country. They may be redeemed, and they shall be released in the Jubilee.

I assume you won't have any problems at all with what's being said here.  The general response I've received from former church members was 'look how ordered and just god is!  These are good laws' 

Just to recap:

1.  Houses inside walled cities = 1 yr of buyback option otherwise it's a permanent deal.

2.  Country houses = returned at Jubilee, no permanent deal.

 

39 ‘And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. 40 As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 And then he shall depart from you—he and his children with him—and shall return to his own family. He shall return to the possession of his fathers. 42 For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 43 You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God.

39-43, I assume you guys have no problems with that?  Look at how just and righteous yaweh/allah/jehovah/jesus is!  It's not slavery!

Hebrew male servants = not permanent, returned at Jubilee.

 

44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.

Foreigners = PERMANENT DEAL, they are treated as permanent property.

 

44-46.  What are you thoughts on this?  Did god/yaweh/jesus/allah suddenly switch from being literal to allegorical?  And what is the moral lesson to be found here?  What part of allah/god/yaweh/jesus' omnibenevolence is being shown in these passages?  Why did your deity feel the need to differentiate the treatment of non-hebrews to hebrews? 

 

Please pray earnestly to your deity and then reply with an answer.  So far, none of the answers I've collected match up, but maybe the christians I've been talking to haven't prayed with faith the grain of a mustard seed. 

 

PS:  yaweh/allah/jesus/jehovah said at the beginning of the chapter:

 

The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them:

It's his words.

 

---

Rape:

Please ask any woman here in Ex-C if they think this is rape or not.  Please ask any of your christian female friends and relatives if this is rape or not.  Is this rape?  I say yes, but you clearly say "no, this is not rape."  If a British or American soldier kicked down the door of an Iraqi household claimed a woman inside as jesus/yeshitwa/yaweh/allah ordered, then he would've been court-martialed. 

 

 

Deut. 21:10-14    "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

 

---

Genocide:

All I can say is this.  If you believe that you, the Israelite who ran his sword through an infant, ensured that that child went to 'heaven,' then you are an immoral bastard.  Just like WLC.  Ask yourself this question when you view this video.  If WLC were advocating for Islam instead of christianity, would YOU suddenly think he's an immoral bastard?  Think about it...

 

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Human,  I posted this because Gus wrote the standard apologist lines (WLC to a T) regarding these atrocities.  And also for the christian lurkers who are on the fence.

 

You're right, reading the bible tells a very clear no-nonsense narrative alright.  God/jesus/yeshitwa/allah clearly orders these.  Christians, I hope you think long and hard about what your good buddy jesus did.

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And Gus has no response.  When faced with the bible, the apologetics wither away.

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"I think god had morally sufficient reasons..."

William Lane Craig

 

 

Well I think he's nuts! An object lesson? Wtf? The fact that this argument was at one time somewhat convincing to me is incredible.

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I am posting this from a public library.

 

I have been having trouble this week trying to access this forum.

I either can't open a page or I get page  unavailable.

 

I have used up most of my monthly satellite connection so my connection is running slow.

Hope to be back in about a week.

 

I will reply to this thread asap.

 

See you soon :)

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I am posting this from a public library.

 

I have been having trouble this week trying to access this forum.

I either can't open a page or I get page  unavailable.

 

I have used up most of my monthly satellite connection so my connection is running slow.

Hope to be back in about a week.

 

I will reply to this thread asap.

 

See you soon smile.png

No need to rush.

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Slavery-Rape-and Genocide

 

These topics, it seems, are a popular accusations in the Lion's Den against the Bible.

 

I remember a good discussion a few months ago and another christian member, I thought, did a good job of representing
a Christian view of these topics.

 

That said, no problem....it's good to discuss these topics.

 

Let me say again. I don't understand every passage in the Bible. There are some things I don't think
I will ever understand but I do understand the main message presented in the scriptures.

 

Christian apologists have answered questions on these difficult passages in scripture.
Those interested can find book after book or just do an online search.

 

I accept these explanations. Like I said, there are some things I may never understand
but this does not destroy my faith in that rebel from Nazareth.

 

slavery....

 

from: http://www.christianapologeticsalliance.com/2012/10/20/you-say-the-bible-advocates-slavery/

 

from the link posted:

 

"While it would take a bit of unpacking to get into all the nuts and bolts of the Old Testament law and slavery, the kind of “slavery” the Bible is OK with would be better labelled as servanthood. When an Israelite could not pay his debt, he would sell himself into servanthood for seven years in order to pay it off. At the end of the seven years, or every fiftieth year in Israel – the year of Jubilee – his debt was automatically cancelled. (Leviticus 25:35–43) The servant , the provisions made in the Old Testament were to help the poor, not to allow them to be owned, bullied or treated as inferior. (Deuteronomy 15:10)

 

Furthermore, many scholars of history believe that when Jesus preached his famous sermon out of Isaiah 61, he was announcing that the Jubilee was fulfilled in himself. In saying that he was anointed to preach good news to the poor and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, he was pronouncing a time for Israel to repent and to practice the spirit behind the Jubilee, which is to let men’s debts go free. He teaches that we are to “forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you”. (Luke 6:37-38)"

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I have been having trouble this week trying to access this forum.

I either can't open a page or I get page  unavailable.

 

 

 

Must be the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something.  Are you listening?

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I have been having trouble this week trying to access this forum.

I either can't open a page or I get page  unavailable.

 

 

 

Must be the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something.  Are you listening?

 

 

 

...or that red tailed liar zDuivel7.gif

If him, I'm not listening.

 

Whatever, I'm glad to be back :)

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I have been having trouble this week trying to access this forum.

I either can't open a page or I get page  unavailable.

 

 

 

Must be the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something.  Are you listening?

 

 

 

...or that red tailed liar zDuivel7.gif

If him, I'm not listening.

 

Whatever, I'm glad to be back smile.png

 

 

 

Notice how hard it is to tell your imaginary friends from your imaginary enemies?

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Slavery-Rape-and Genocide

 

These topics, it seems, are a popular accusations in the Lion's Den against the Bible.

 

I remember a good discussion a few months ago and another christian member, I thought, did a good job of representing

a Christian view of these topics.

 

That said, no problem....it's good to discuss these topics.

 

Let me say again. I don't understand every passage in the Bible. There are some things I don't think

I will ever understand but I do understand the main message presented in the scriptures.

 

Christian apologists have answered questions on these difficult passages in scripture.

Those interested can find book after book or just do an online search.

 

I accept these explanations. Like I said, there are some things I may never understand

but this does not destroy my faith in that rebel from Nazareth.

 

slavery....

 

from: http://www.christianapologeticsalliance.com/2012/10/20/you-say-the-bible-advocates-slavery/

 

From the apologetic:

 

So in brief summary, the Bible does not endorse the type of antebellum slavery practiced centuries ago, nor anything resembling it. Those who would claim otherwise are either grossly misinformed, willfully ignorant or just plain intellectually dishonest.

 

Good heavens what a liar, these apologists are simply disgusting.

The intellectual dishonesty resides with this apologist.

Not once do they ever refer to Deut 20, where people are given the choice of being killed or serve as forced labor for the Hebrew conquerors who invaded their land.

 

Deut 20:10-14(NLT)

“As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace.

If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.

But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.

When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town.

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.

 

These people were not contract labor, they were slaves.

Slave labor of this type was used to build God's temple.

The making of people into slaves was a command from God.

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What IH has copy/pasted has not touched Lev. 25 at all.

 

Why the differentiation between Hebrew male slaves vs. Hebrew female slaves vs. foreigners?  

 

IH has not touched on why Lev 25 categorizes which property is let go at Jubilee (Hebrew males + countryside real estate) and which are permanent (city houses after 1yr. and foreign slaves).

 

Good job IH, you've pasted something that is nonsense and does not in any way address the issue of slavery.

 

This is the quality of your "skeptical research"?  That's really laughable.

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Holy shit IH, your apologetics deliberately dodged foreign slaves!

 

Just re-read the christian drivel:  "When an Israelite could not pay his debt, he would sell himself into servanthood for seven years in order to pay it off. At the end of the seven years, or every fiftieth year in Israel – the year of Jubilee – his debt was automatically cancelled. (Leviticus 25:35–43) "

 

It stopped at Lev 25:43.  I wonder why... oh right!

 

44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.

 

IH, you are a liar, and you serve a god who is a slaver, a child murderer, and a child rapist.

 

The crimes of child molestation, child rape, child murder, genocide, slavery I now charge you with, since christ is in you.

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If any christian lurker wants to defend their god, feel free.  Your god has clearly said the things in the original post.  He commanded each and every one of those things.  This means that -if your god was indeed the true god- that he commanded people just like you to kill infants and their mothers, and gave you permission to rape young virgin girls and enslave foreign people for life.

 

How far would you go to serve your god?

 

You know that hymn "I'll go where you want me to go, Dear lord, I'll be what you want me to be."  That includes being a murderer, a molester, a rapist, and a slaver.

 

No, these are not light accusations.  Nonetheless your god is accused of them and IH has utterly failed in his apologetic's copy/paste.  

 

(Seriously, if your apologetics stops at the verse BEFORE the heart of the accusation, you clearly haven't done research)

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Some interesting thoughts on the genocide portion of unholy trinity of Yahweh's plan.

As for the whole "Bible slavery isn't really slavery" argument, it is bogus and those who use this defend God's sanctioning of slavery are deluded. Slavery is owning other people. If modern man knows that it is wrong to own other people, then surely a perfect God does and always has. If he can make cultural exceptions regarding slavery for ancient Israel, then why did he stop making them ~200 years ago for the rest of the world? Not only that, but why does God continue to make such cultural exceptions for other things in modern times? Women couldn't serve in the church for over 1,900 years, but in the 20th century, they could. Now certain denominations take a stance against this and are generally thought of as backwards.

Really though, most modern Christians don't pay attention to the OT. They skip from Genesis to Proverbs and Psalms, to Isaiah and onward to the Gospels. Leviticus is a law book. Ain't nobody got time for that. So they skip it and most remain strangely silent on the dark parts that make them feel uncomfortable.

Then when they are asked about such passages, they copy/paste apologetics or brush the questions off. They know in their minds (if they have them, that is) that there is NO reasonable justification for things like genocide, rape or slavery. But they must defend their God, their Jesus, at all costs. After all, he gave everything on the cross for them. Who are they to object?

They fail to realize that we've all been where they are at right now. We gave all the same non-reasons and brush offs. We have read the apologetics and we have read the Bible too.
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 1Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”

Abram agreed to what Sarai said. So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the Lord judge between you and me.”

“Your slave is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?”

“I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.

Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 

 

Genesis Chapter 16 *Pulled from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2016

 

...

Read this short story and tell me that Hagar was simply an indentured servant.  Tell me she freely submitted to being raped by Abram.  Tell me Sarai treated her "servant" well and would free her after 7 years.

 

Hagar was treated like property, used like property, raped like property, because Hagar WAS property.  Argue over the meaning and interpretation of the law all you want, but don't tell me this shit ain't in the bible.

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I have been having trouble this week trying to access this forum.

I either can't open a page or I get page unavailable.

 

 

Must be the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something. Are you listening?

 

...or that red tailed liar zDuivel7.gif

If him, I'm not listening.

 

Whatever, I'm glad to be back smile.png

 

Notice how hard it is to tell your imaginary friends from your imaginary enemies?

This. Back in my fundie days I had this problem. Is it a sign or am I being led astray.

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The following commentary,I think, explains

the reasons for the war Israel waged on the Amalekites.

It is worth reading if you are interested in the background

and history of the conflict.

 

http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2013/08/the-amalekite-genocide/

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Nothing more than a "because they were evil, it was justified to kill them all."

 

It's what End3 said just a month or so ago.  Only he attempted to tie in genetic predispositions of all the Amalekite males as being similar to serial killers.

 

If you were one of the Israelite soldiers, and the command was given to kill Amalekite infants (Read 1 Sam 15:1-4) would you do it?  Would you really draw your weapon and kill infant children?

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This is utterly hideous:

 

The situation in 1 Samuel 15 is that God knew the Amalekites. He knew they were a nation that had rejected a part in God’s plan to bless the world. He knew that their actions for hundreds of years had been set on destroying and stopping God’s plan to bless the world. He knew that if they weren’t destroyed, they would continue to try to stop his plan. And in fact, they weren’t destroyed and they did continue to try to thwart God’s plan, so he was proved right by that.

It’s an issue of protection. If the Amalekite army had been defeated once in battle and left to retreat, they would have come back eventually. It would have been limited protection for a limited time. But what God wants is total protection for his plan to bless the world, forever. Without total destruction of the Amalekites, they were going to keep on coming back, and God’s plan would not be safe.

But this still sounds, well, merciless. We can see how a good God might do it, but it isn’t clear how this fits with the God who does not desire the death of sinners but rather that they should turn from their wickedness and live.

-the apologetics site that IH presented.

 

You cannot present proof of your god, you've been quoted as saying that.

 

Yet you take the word of your god and you, as a dutiful Israelite soldier, would could it as merciful if those babies died by your sword.

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Nothing more than a "because they were evil, it was justified to kill them all."

 

It's what End3 said just a month or so ago.  Only he attempted to tie in genetic predispositions of all the Amalekite males as being similar to serial killers.

 

If you were one of the Israelite soldiers, and the command was given to kill Amalekite infants (Read 1 Sam 15:1-4) would you do it?  Would you really draw your weapon and kill infant children?

 

 

I posted that link at 11:28 and you responded at 11:32.

 

If you read that commentary in less than four minutes, you

are some speed reader. I'm going to assume you did read it

all and you totally disagree with the write'rs conclusions.

 

If you were a Amalekite father would you sacrifice your child to your god or would

you attack Israelis and kill their children? How can any of us answer a question like that?

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Forgot to include this bit:

 

God knew that the Amalekites would always oppose Israel—that the children of the Amalekites would do it when they grew up, and their descendants too—as we see with Haman in the book of Esther.

 

WIthout any shred of evidence for even the census and the birth of his yeshitwa, IH presents that his god (not proven) has seen that the Amalekites were all going to grow up to be evil.

 

So what does IH and the rest of the loyal Israelite soldiers do?  Kill their infants.

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I did read it, IH.  And I've presented the bits where it's troubling that you, without having presented proof that your god is correct, would present something like this justification to absolve your god from the crimes of infanticide.

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"If you were a Amalekite father would you sacrifice your child to your god or would

you attack Israelis and kill their children? How can any of us answer a question like that?"

 

I would do what I feel is right in my moral compass.  I would teach my child to be skeptical of any religion, the prevalent religions included.

 

What would YOU do if you were an Israelite soldier?  Would you kill my Amalekite son as your god ordered you to do it?

 

EDIT: 

 

This is the problem IH.  You're stuck when it's your god who ordered you to kill children in the hypothetical.

 

I've answered your hypothetical easily.  What would I do?  I can honestly answer that right now, without hesitation, I will raise my son to be a freethinker and love the exploration of our world. 

 

You're locked because your god (from your apologetics site) has deemed all of us Amalekites as evil.  Hence the command is given to kill us all. 

 

The difference between you and me is that I can answer for myself without giving any care to what any god might think.

 

You however are stuck between giving an answer of "of course I won't kill kids" and your infallible all-knowing god's orders.

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It’s an issue of protection. If the Amalekite army had been defeated once in battle and left to retreat, they would have come back eventually. It would have been limited protection for a limited time. But what God wants is total protection for his plan to bless the world, forever. Without total destruction of the Amalekites, they were going to keep on coming back, and God’s plan would not be safe.

But this still sounds, well, merciless. We can see how a good God might do it, but it isn’t clear how this fits with the God who does not desire the death of sinners but rather that they should turn from their wickedness and live.

 

 

Thoughts:

 

Let's say that good ol' Yahweh has a plan. A master plan. Part of this master plan states that "none shall perish. they should all turn from sin (their inborn desires of the flesh, their autonomous non-Yahweh-oriented thoughts) and live (worship Yahweh). He also creates all life, including the Amekelites.

 

He made them, knows everything down to the number of the hairs on their heads. Yet he kills them because they won't go along with his plan. They are able to thwart his plan simply by choosing not to worship him. They choose to sin and Yahweh's plan goes to shit...unless he kills them?

 

Merciful God, my ass. He killed them because they refused to go along with his plan. Or far more likely, he killed them because they didn't worship him.

 

Why create only to destroy? Assuming that he is indeed all-knowing, he knew he'd have to kill them. He knew they would disobey. He knew it all and made them anyway.

 

So what was the point? Where's the love? Why worship a homicidal illogical egomaniac?

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