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Schizophrenia And Genetics


Guest end3

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This is mental health: "A healthy brain is noted by these subjective qualities within society".

So, you've told us what we've told you; now provide me with a definition of "sin".  jesus god damn christ, End, how many times do I have to ask you?

 

Here's one right out of the book:

 

sin 1 (sn)

n.

1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

 

 

Let me save you the discussion. I will pick religious law in this case with an emphasis on some absolute morality we can't define.

 

Ultimately you can't scientifically exclude religious law from natural law without providing me the mechanisms. And to keep yammering on without heed to this disingenuous. But you know that.

 

 

Which book?  

 

Which book is the objective source of absolute morality?

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This is mental health: "A healthy brain is noted by these subjective qualities within society".

So, you've told us what we've told you; now provide me with a definition of "sin".  jesus god damn christ, End, how many times do I have to ask you?

 

Here's one right out of the book:

 

sin 1 (sn)

n.

1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

 

 

Let me save you the discussion. I will pick religious law in this case with an emphasis on some absolute morality we can't define.

 

Ultimately you can't scientifically exclude religious law from natural law without providing me the mechanisms. And to keep yammering on without heed to this disingenuous. But you know that.

 

 

Which book?  

 

Which book is the objective source of absolute morality?

 

 

Which version of which book is the objective source of absolute morality?

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This is mental health: "A healthy brain is noted by these subjective qualities within society".

So, you've told us what we've told you; now provide me with a definition of "sin".  jesus god damn christ, End, how many times do I have to ask you?

 

Here's one right out of the book:

 

sin 1 (sn)

n.

1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

 

 

Let me save you the discussion. I will pick religious law in this case with an emphasis on some absolute morality we can't define.

 

Ultimately you can't scientifically exclude religious law from natural law without providing me the mechanisms. And to keep yammering on without heed to this disingenuous. But you know that.

 

 

Which book?  

 

Which book is the objective source of absolute morality?

 

 

Which version of which book is the objective source of absolute morality?

 

 

Which interpretation of which version of which book is the objective source of absolute morality?

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No, guys, define mental health scientifically.

 

Mental health is a state of well-being in which the individual realizes his or her own abilities, can cope with the normal stresses of life, can work productively and fruitfully, and is able to make a contribution to his or her community.” - CDC, a scientific organization.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mentalhealth/basics.htm

 

behaviors....

 

 

Which psychological model of behavior is the correct and definitive one that all scientists everywhere should work with?

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No, guys, define mental health scientifically.

 

Any scientific definition of mental health will be based upon the notion that humans evolved over millions of years, from earlier life forms.

 

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_01

 

This sits in direct contradiction to the unscientific Genesis narrative of human origins in the Bible. 

Any definition of mental health taken from scripture will therefore NOT be scientific.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/21/schizophrenia-genome-immune/12947505/

 

Just skimmed this, but one would speculate that we could make a case for loving everyone as we may be finding out that we may be predestined in some manner and even to "sin". Thinking this fits the fallen world/ original sin/ epigenetic research.....basically the whole nine yards.

 

End, why is it important to you to link things to original sin? What has that done good for the world? In the world I live in it only created agony because somehow it implies that sin is something people bring upon themselves. So if you have mental illness and link this to original sin it must be something that came onto you because of the sinful nature of man...and therefore is something to be ashamed of. Jesus supposedly died for that sin...so why is it there? Especially if you are a devout Christian...why can you be schizophrenic? And why can't you pray it away...or spiritually outgrow? And why is so and so having it and not so and so?

 

The concept of sin and original sin actually keeps people who buy into this stuff from getting treatment.

 

And as others have stated here there is no link from the article to original sin.

 

Another thing that I find interesting here: The genetic code of humans is about 90% identical with the genetic code of monkeys...but of course to Christians that is no evidence that humans and monkeys have common ancestors. But then you see an article about mental illness possibly lying in the genes and you try to link it to original sin. Can you see what you are doing here?

 

When I studied graphic design we used to have the phase of making a concept. Unfortunately this most of the times is not how a creative process works. So people just started to create and finally, when they had something they liked they where like: Oh, I need a concept. So you just created one...and then you made everything fit that concept.

With original sin it works quite that way. It is a concept and you can make whatever you find fit that concept. But it has been created to exactly do that. It is a clever concept for those who chose to believe in it. But it is a concept and it is a bad one too. Because it does lots of harm to people by telling them they where bad and in need of a savior etc. It devalues human beings and makes them shameful creatures. We have enough shaming going on on this planet. Why not coming up with something that puts an end to that?

 

Thanks for the post M. I don't know that it is that important for me to observe this....but I have never really tried to understand that particular motivation in me. It's just observation. The epigenetic thing came up a few years ago and I was not the one that made the connection to the Bible...it was part of the article. And I am understanding that nature and nurture, i.e. our environment and actions, can change our genetic makeup for a time. To add, per anyone's belief system, some actions promote life and some don't. I view those things that don't promote life as "sin". I thinking it is an ongoing effort to learn and practice those actions that leads us to "salvation". By that, I mean I do this by faith as I don't believe myself smart enough nor wise enough to piece together, or reconcile my life to my immediate relationships. So again, I do this by faith.

 

With that, it seems reasonable or plausible that if you join this with the Genesis story, that we then have generation upon generation of people practicing behaviors and making decisions that intentionally or unintentionally, do not support life.....per the fallen world scenario. So then, observation leads me to watch this sinusoidal wave of morality that attempts some absolute goal but always seems to keep waffling <insert make straight path Bible scripture here>. So we were discussing that the path might not waver if there had been a fall.

 

So going back, we are so removed from the original, that who really knows where we are relative to the original genetics. And with that, I think to myself, we are at a point where it really doesn't matter the "sin", as we are all so far removed that we are in the same predicament. Then this adjoins the Scripture that we have no war with flesh and blood, but the common enemy. I interpret this as having no quarrel with my fellow man, but quarrel with evil or the dichotomy of humanity. And it also makes me think that Jesus and grace came along at a particular time knowing that humanity was screwed.

 

Long story short, then you take all of these new scientific claims, the schizophrenia research, multiverse speculation, epigenetics, and it all appears to fall in line with the story from my perspective. You may say that I am intentionally forcing these into place, but no, not really. It's just observation.

 

An aside, I'm not an advocate for Christian interpretations leading to people not seeking help. This goes against my promote life theory of salvation. I do find it interesting that cures are being researched through genetics. Which leads to the idea of what exactly is the definition of disease. Is it a function of multiple generations of behaviors, a poor environment? Again, we are so far removed, disease could happen and we have no clue the cause. It all sounds reasonable to me with respect to the story. So don't shoot me, nor accuse me of my mind can't think any other way, because it can, and does. It's just what my brain does.

 

Started this thread for conversation sake and to harass you heathens.

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"The epigenetic thing came up a few years ago and I was not the one that made the connection to the Bible...it was part of the article."

---he's the one who brought it up in the OP

 

"To add, per anyone's belief system, some actions promote life and some don't. I view those things that don't promote life as "sin"."

---Num. 31 goes against End's words, he's contradicting himself, so he must find a way to make god's kill orders justified by saying the canaanites were genetically predisposed to be harmful beings.  All of them.  So they're worthy of death. 

--for proof of this, go here:  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62720-no-shit-sherlock/#.U9KJYWMgJyI

 

"With that, it seems reasonable or plausible that if you join this with the Genesis story, that we then have generation upon generation of people practicing behaviors and making decisions that intentionally or unintentionally, do not support life.....per the fallen world scenario."

---Absolutely no evidence to back up that his genesis story (and his bible) is true.

 

"An aside, I'm not an advocate for Christian interpretations leading to people not seeking help. This goes against my promote life theory of salvation. I do find it interesting that cures are being researched through genetics. Which leads to the idea of what exactly is the definition of disease."

---And he goes one step further by linking it to his religion.  Then goes around saying "you don't know the origin, so this explanation is plausible!"  As if no evidence for his own religious bullshit is needed for it to be accepted as a viable theory.

 

This is the brain on god glasses, the christian specs differ from the muslim specs, which differ from the mormon specs.  Yet all the god glasses equally blind their wearers from reality.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/21/schizophrenia-genome-immune/12947505/

 

Just skimmed this, but one would speculate that we could make a case for loving everyone as we may be finding out that we may be predestined in some manner and even to "sin". Thinking this fits the fallen world/ original sin/ epigenetic research.....basically the whole nine yards.

 

End, why is it important to you to link things to original sin? What has that done good for the world? In the world I live in it only created agony because somehow it implies that sin is something people bring upon themselves. So if you have mental illness and link this to original sin it must be something that came onto you because of the sinful nature of man...and therefore is something to be ashamed of. Jesus supposedly died for that sin...so why is it there? Especially if you are a devout Christian...why can you be schizophrenic? And why can't you pray it away...or spiritually outgrow? And why is so and so having it and not so and so?

 

The concept of sin and original sin actually keeps people who buy into this stuff from getting treatment.

 

And as others have stated here there is no link from the article to original sin.

 

Another thing that I find interesting here: The genetic code of humans is about 90% identical with the genetic code of monkeys...but of course to Christians that is no evidence that humans and monkeys have common ancestors. But then you see an article about mental illness possibly lying in the genes and you try to link it to original sin. Can you see what you are doing here?

 

When I studied graphic design we used to have the phase of making a concept. Unfortunately this most of the times is not how a creative process works. So people just started to create and finally, when they had something they liked they where like: Oh, I need a concept. So you just created one...and then you made everything fit that concept.

With original sin it works quite that way. It is a concept and you can make whatever you find fit that concept. But it has been created to exactly do that. It is a clever concept for those who chose to believe in it. But it is a concept and it is a bad one too. Because it does lots of harm to people by telling them they where bad and in need of a savior etc. It devalues human beings and makes them shameful creatures. We have enough shaming going on on this planet. Why not coming up with something that puts an end to that?

 

Thanks for the post M. I don't know that it is that important for me to observe this....but I have never really tried to understand that particular motivation in me. It's just observation. The epigenetic thing came up a few years ago and I was not the one that made the connection to the Bible...it was part of the article. And I am understanding that nature and nurture, i.e. our environment and actions, can change our genetic makeup for a time. To add, per anyone's belief system, some actions promote life and some don't. I view those things that don't promote life as "sin". I thinking it is an ongoing effort to learn and practice those actions that leads us to "salvation". By that, I mean I do this by faith as I don't believe myself smart enough nor wise enough to piece together, or reconcile my life to my immediate relationships. So again, I do this by faith.

 

With that, it seems reasonable or plausible that if you join this with the Genesis story, that we then have generation upon generation of people practicing behaviors and making decisions that intentionally or unintentionally, do not support life.....per the fallen world scenario. So then, observation leads me to watch this sinusoidal wave of morality that attempts some absolute goal but always seems to keep waffling <insert make straight path Bible scripture here>. So we were discussing that the path might not waver if there had been a fall.

 

So going back, we are so removed from the original, that who really knows where we are relative to the original genetics. And with that, I think to myself, we are at a point where it really doesn't matter the "sin", as we are all so far removed that we are in the same predicament. Then this adjoins the Scripture that we have no war with flesh and blood, but the common enemy. I interpret this as having no quarrel with my fellow man, but quarrel with evil or the dichotomy of humanity. And it also makes me think that Jesus and grace came along at a particular time knowing that humanity was screwed.

 

Long story short, then you take all of these new scientific claims, the schizophrenia research, multiverse speculation, epigenetics, and it all appears to fall in line with the story from my perspective. You may say that I am intentionally forcing these into place, but no, not really. It's just observation.

 

An aside, I'm not an advocate for Christian interpretations leading to people not seeking help. This goes against my promote life theory of salvation. I do find it interesting that cures are being researched through genetics. Which leads to the idea of what exactly is the definition of disease. Is it a function of multiple generations of behaviors, a poor environment? Again, we are so far removed, disease could happen and we have no clue the cause. It all sounds reasonable to me with respect to the story. So don't shoot me, nor accuse me of my mind can't think any other way, because it can, and does. It's just what my brain does.

 

Started this thread for conversation sake and to harass you heathens.

 

It looks to me like you are making it appear that the hole was exactly the size of the amount of the water instead of the water just filling the hole analogy. You make observations about things based on a limited worldview and because of that limited worldview, your perceptions of things are skewed to the point where they appear to match what you think they should be. But the reality is that your worldview is limited by your limited understanding of the subject matter involved. To those people who understand the bigger picture, it is obvious that you are bending the reality of what you perceive to be sin to fit your own worldview.

 

No evidence exists to show that sin causes physical or mental illnesses or diseases. Sin is nothing in the physical world. It is purely a construct of the religious mind. It is not genetic. Things that you believe are sin are indeed behaviors and behaviors can be learned by humans all the time. So, simply because we mimic the behaviors of our ancestors, this does not imply that sin has been passed down from the succeeding generations. It just means that we have learned the behaviors of the generations before us.

 

If you look at the generations that came as a result of WWII. Millions of men and women came back from overseas with a different perspective on life. Many had lots of money to spend and, with the advent of newer technology and that different understanding of life, many of those men and women began to live their lives very differently than their parents. The new era of freedom and live for the moment excitement that came about by those who were in the war began to change the way our culture behaved. Those Men and women began to have children and they began espousing those new ideas about life to their children and lo and behold, the hippie generation arrived where everything was peace and love and freedom. Then those hippies had children and then their children took it even farther. and so on and so forth, so that now we have a generation of children who want to be independent and who rely on technology and use it to become isolated in many instances. Our society is a product of the decisions and lifestyles of the generations before us. It isn't about sin. Its about learning the behaviors of the generations before us.

 

You have to get outside your box of religious thinking and look at the world through normal everyday glasses. Its amazing some of the thing you will see when you do. Then you will begin to understand what things us ex-Christians see. We used to wear those God-glasses. We took them off, and now we see the world in a different light. We see reality. We see the flaws. We see the genuine good in people. This is what we hope for you, end. That's why we challenge you. That's why we call you out on your bull.

 

I hope this time you have spent with Ex-c at least challenges your thinking and causes you to become a better person because of it. Regardless of what you choose to believe in the end.

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End, why is it important to you to link things to original sin? What has that done good for the world? In the world I live in it only created agony because somehow it implies that sin is something people bring upon themselves. So if you have mental illness and link this to original sin it must be something that came onto you because of the sinful nature of man...and therefore is something to be ashamed of. Jesus supposedly died for that sin...so why is it there? Especially if you are a devout Christian...why can you be schizophrenic? And why can't you pray it away...or spiritually outgrow? And why is so and so having it and not so and so?

 

The concept of sin and original sin actually keeps people who buy into this stuff from getting treatment.

 

And as others have stated here there is no link from the article to original sin.

 

Another thing that I find interesting here: The genetic code of humans is about 90% identical with the genetic code of monkeys...but of course to Christians that is no evidence that humans and monkeys have common ancestors. But then you see an article about mental illness possibly lying in the genes and you try to link it to original sin. Can you see what you are doing here?

 

When I studied graphic design we used to have the phase of making a concept. Unfortunately this most of the times is not how a creative process works. So people just started to create and finally, when they had something they liked they where like: Oh, I need a concept. So you just created one...and then you made everything fit that concept.

With original sin it works quite that way. It is a concept and you can make whatever you find fit that concept. But it has been created to exactly do that. It is a clever concept for those who chose to believe in it. But it is a concept and it is a bad one too. Because it does lots of harm to people by telling them they where bad and in need of a savior etc. It devalues human beings and makes them shameful creatures. We have enough shaming going on on this planet. Why not coming up with something that puts an end to that?

 

Thanks for the post M. I don't know that it is that important for me to observe this....but I have never really tried to understand that particular motivation in me. It's just observation. The epigenetic thing came up a few years ago and I was not the one that made the connection to the Bible...it was part of the article. And I am understanding that nature and nurture, i.e. our environment and actions, can change our genetic makeup for a time. To add, per anyone's belief system, some actions promote life and some don't. I view those things that don't promote life as "sin". I thinking it is an ongoing effort to learn and practice those actions that leads us to "salvation". By that, I mean I do this by faith as I don't believe myself smart enough nor wise enough to piece together, or reconcile my life to my immediate relationships. So again, I do this by faith.

 

With that, it seems reasonable or plausible that if you join this with the Genesis story, that we then have generation upon generation of people practicing behaviors and making decisions that intentionally or unintentionally, do not support life.....per the fallen world scenario. So then, observation leads me to watch this sinusoidal wave of morality that attempts some absolute goal but always seems to keep waffling <insert make straight path Bible scripture here>. So we were discussing that the path might not waver if there had been a fall.

 

So going back, we are so removed from the original, that who really knows where we are relative to the original genetics. And with that, I think to myself, we are at a point where it really doesn't matter the "sin", as we are all so far removed that we are in the same predicament. Then this adjoins the Scripture that we have no war with flesh and blood, but the common enemy. I interpret this as having no quarrel with my fellow man, but quarrel with evil or the dichotomy of humanity. And it also makes me think that Jesus and grace came along at a particular time knowing that humanity was screwed.

 

Long story short, then you take all of these new scientific claims, the schizophrenia research, multiverse speculation, epigenetics, and it all appears to fall in line with the story from my perspective. You may say that I am intentionally forcing these into place, but no, not really. It's just observation.

 

An aside, I'm not an advocate for Christian interpretations leading to people not seeking help. This goes against my promote life theory of salvation. I do find it interesting that cures are being researched through genetics. Which leads to the idea of what exactly is the definition of disease. Is it a function of multiple generations of behaviors, a poor environment? Again, we are so far removed, disease could happen and we have no clue the cause. It all sounds reasonable to me with respect to the story. So don't shoot me, nor accuse me of my mind can't think any other way, because it can, and does. It's just what my brain does.

 

Started this thread for conversation sake and to harass you heathens.

 

 

I don't accuse you of promoting not to get help with mental problems. It is just in the nature of the matter that people with the original sin concept are having a hard time to make up their minds to get the help they need because somehow this sin thing implies that there is a way to solve the issue by oneself.

 

You say you observe...so have you been there when your so called original sin happened? Because if not I don't see any observation happening. I would not call it observation but musing. And it goes into the same musing that conspiracy theorists are doing. Trying to connect the dots but never getting too serious about it...like never really want to know and do the effort of real investigation. There is no observation by faith. Either you observe or you take it by faith.

 

You do an awful lot of thinking but miss to do the thinking of original sin being plausible. I mean just think about it. A garden, God, Adam and Eve, a talking snake, a tree of life that of course stays untouched, a tree with the fruit of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden...all set up to fail so original sin could enter the world and mess everything God so carefully created up. If you don't have been indoctrinated as a child it is hard to accept such tales as reality. It fails all logic.

 

You talk about new scientific claims. Now these are not just claims. There is a whole lot of experiments and tests and other stuff going on until there is such a claim made. So I would suggest you to read some real science books and think about it. For example it is not just a claim that 90% the human genetic code is identical with that of apes. They actually compare real DNA (and multiple times with different apes and humans) before they even consider to make such a statement. And no, you are not too dumb to actually study some real science. Everyone can do this, no one has to rely on faith only.

 

I don't see the connection between original sin and bad genes being handed down from generation to generation except for if you want it to be there. As I said with the creating a concept for an already created project so you can appear smart and thoughtful to your client or teacher...

If you have studied some basic cell biology and genetics you understand that it is not that uncommon for genes to mutate. You as well understand how you give your genes to the next generation. No original sin needed for that. Also there is not only bad mutations happening. There are improvements as well. Human IQ is going up generation by generation. If that is genetic I don't know and don't want to claim it. Just saying...humanity is not as bad as Christians like to portray it.

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"And no, you are not too dumb to actually study some real science. Everyone can do this, no one has to rely on faith only."  -Moanareina

 

That's the crux of the issue though.  Even though he might say otherwise, I don't  think End3's dumb.  RNP said he believed the Noah's ark story literally happened when he was both a fundamentalist and professor.  Hell, Neil Degrasse Tyson mentioned that even the scientists in the national acad. of sciences included christians. 

 

Religion clouds logic, knowledge, and reasoning in people.  It's the god glasses mental block.  This is why he keeps trying to link science and scripture. 

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/21/schizophrenia-genome-immune/12947505/

 

Just skimmed this, but one would speculate that we could make a case for loving everyone as we may be finding out that we may be predestined in some manner and even to "sin". Thinking this fits the fallen world/ original sin/ epigenetic research.....basically the whole nine yards.

 

Another double minded man. You know what James said about that, End3. They are unstable.

 

You should choose. If you want to spend the rest of your life wondering and unstable, that's OK of course, but you'll feel better when you choose.

 

You're a smart guy, End, and when you quit grasping at straws, you will sink into the truth (but you knew that).

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"And no, you are not too dumb to actually study some real science. Everyone can do this, no one has to rely on faith only."  -Moanareina

 

That's the crux of the issue though.  Even though he might say otherwise, I don't  think End3's dumb.  RNP said he believed the Noah's ark story literally happened when he was both a fundamentalist and professor.  Hell, Neil Degrasse Tyson mentioned that even the scientists in the national acad. of sciences included christians. 

 

Religion clouds logic, knowledge, and reasoning in people.  It's the god glasses mental block.  This is why he keeps trying to link science and scripture. 

 

Yes, I wrote this in correspondence to the following excuse and I am aware that I might have gotten end wrong in this one but it sounds like an excuse to me to stick with his believes instead of doing some real research: "By that, I mean I do this by faith as I don't believe myself smart enough nor wise enough to piece together, or reconcile my life to my immediate relationships. So again, I do this by faith."

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When I studied graphic design we used to have the phase of making a concept. Unfortunately this most of the times is not how a creative process works. So people just started to create and finally, when they had something they liked they where like: Oh, I need a concept. So you just created one...and then you made everything fit that concept.

With original sin it works quite that way. It is a concept and you can make whatever you find fit that concept. But it has been created to exactly do that. It is a clever concept for those who chose to believe in it. But it is a concept and it is a bad one too. Because it does lots of harm to people by telling them they where bad and in need of a savior etc. It devalues human beings and makes them shameful creatures. We have enough shaming going on on this planet. Why not coming up with something that puts an end to that?

This analogy was very helpful for me. This thread has been hard for me to follow.

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Thanks for the post M. I don't know that it is that important for me to observe this....but I have never really tried to understand that particular motivation in me. It's just observation. The epigenetic thing came up a few years ago and I was not the one that made the connection to the Bible...it was part of the article. And I am understanding that nature and nurture, i.e. our environment and actions, can change our genetic makeup for a time. To add, per anyone's belief system, some actions promote life and some don't. I view those things that don't promote life as "sin". I thinking it is an ongoing effort to learn and practice those actions that leads us to "salvation". By that, I mean I do this by faith as I don't believe myself smart enough nor wise enough to piece together, or reconcile my life to my immediate relationships. So again, I do this by faith.

 

With that, it seems reasonable or plausible that if you join this with the Genesis story, that we then have generation upon generation of people practicing behaviors and making decisions that intentionally or unintentionally, do not support life.....per the fallen world scenario. So then, observation leads me to watch this sinusoidal wave of morality that attempts some absolute goal but always seems to keep waffling <insert make straight path Bible scripture here>. So we were discussing that the path might not waver if there had been a fall.

 

So going back, we are so removed from the original, that who really knows where we are relative to the original genetics. And with that, I think to myself, we are at a point where it really doesn't matter the "sin", as we are all so far removed that we are in the same predicament. Then this adjoins the Scripture that we have no war with flesh and blood, but the common enemy. I interpret this as having no quarrel with my fellow man, but quarrel with evil or the dichotomy of humanity. And it also makes me think that Jesus and grace came along at a particular time knowing that humanity was screwed.

 

Long story short, then you take all of these new scientific claims, the schizophrenia research, multiverse speculation, epigenetics, and it all appears to fall in line with the story from my perspective. You may say that I am intentionally forcing these into place, but no, not really. It's just observation.

...

That longer description helps me understand the OP better.

 

Here are some questions:

 

- Most sins seem unlikely to affect epigenetics. Here is a link to the ten commandments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments). Shouldn't the ten commandments say something like "though shalt drink plenty of water, though shalt eat vegetables, ..."?

 

- How are you defining sin? I know the Eastern Orthodox define sin to be sickness instead of crime. Maybe something like that is what you mean?

 

- Where do multiverses fit into your theory?

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Equating mental illness and sin is disgusting.

 

The whole point of mental illness… to a certain degree, is that the afflicted do not have freedom of choice, they are not entirely in control mentally of their faculties. To make this a moral issue is incomprehensible, and abhorrent.

 

Fuck off.

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When I studied graphic design we used to have the phase of making a concept. Unfortunately this most of the times is not how a creative process works. So people just started to create and finally, when they had something they liked they where like: Oh, I need a concept. So you just created one...and then you made everything fit that concept.

With original sin it works quite that way. It is a concept and you can make whatever you find fit that concept. But it has been created to exactly do that. It is a clever concept for those who chose to believe in it. But it is a concept and it is a bad one too. Because it does lots of harm to people by telling them they where bad and in need of a savior etc. It devalues human beings and makes them shameful creatures. We have enough shaming going on on this planet. Why not coming up with something that puts an end to that?

This analogy was very helpful for me. This thread has been hard for me to follow.

 

That's because end3 knows nothing about mental illness and usually makes little sense to any of us.  He's best ignored.

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Thanks for the post M. I don't know that it is that important for me to observe this....but I have never really tried to understand that particular motivation in me. It's just observation. The epigenetic thing came up a few years ago and I was not the one that made the connection to the Bible...it was part of the article. And I am understanding that nature and nurture, i.e. our environment and actions, can change our genetic makeup for a time. To add, per anyone's belief system, some actions promote life and some don't. I view those things that don't promote life as "sin". I thinking it is an ongoing effort to learn and practice those actions that leads us to "salvation". By that, I mean I do this by faith as I don't believe myself smart enough nor wise enough to piece together, or reconcile my life to my immediate relationships. So again, I do this by faith.

 

With that, it seems reasonable or plausible that if you join this with the Genesis story, that we then have generation upon generation of people practicing behaviors and making decisions that intentionally or unintentionally, do not support life.....per the fallen world scenario. So then, observation leads me to watch this sinusoidal wave of morality that attempts some absolute goal but always seems to keep waffling <insert make straight path Bible scripture here>. So we were discussing that the path might not waver if there had been a fall.

 

So going back, we are so removed from the original, that who really knows where we are relative to the original genetics. And with that, I think to myself, we are at a point where it really doesn't matter the "sin", as we are all so far removed that we are in the same predicament. Then this adjoins the Scripture that we have no war with flesh and blood, but the common enemy. I interpret this as having no quarrel with my fellow man, but quarrel with evil or the dichotomy of humanity. And it also makes me think that Jesus and grace came along at a particular time knowing that humanity was screwed.

 

Long story short, then you take all of these new scientific claims, the schizophrenia research, multiverse speculation, epigenetics, and it all appears to fall in line with the story from my perspective. You may say that I am intentionally forcing these into place, but no, not really. It's just observation.

...

That longer description helps me understand the OP better.

 

Here are some questions:

 

- Most sins seem unlikely to affect epigenetics. Here is a link to the ten commandments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments). Shouldn't the ten commandments say something like "though shalt drink plenty of water, though shalt eat vegetables, ..."?

 

- How are you defining sin? I know the Eastern Orthodox define sin to be sickness instead of crime. Maybe something like that is what you mean?

 

- Where do multiverses fit into your theory?

 

I would advise against trying to get any sense out of end3 on these matters.  He is not qualified to talk about mental illness.  Or religion.  Or science.

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I would advise against trying to get any sense out of end3 on these matters.  He is not qualified to talk about mental illness.  Or religion.  Or science.

o.k., that is probably good advice. Whenever I read his threads, I feel stupid and frustrated that I can't understand either side of the conversation. smile.png (Although I'm sure some of the difficulty is simply that some ideas are hard for me to grasp.)

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DL, here's what happened out of these 6 pages.

 

1.  End3 makes a connection between schizophrenia and his bible's "original sin"

--"Just skimmed this, but one would speculate that we could make a case for loving everyone as we may be finding out that we may be predestined in some manner and even to "sin". Thinking this fits the fallen world/ original sin/ epigenetic research.....basically the whole nine yards."

 

2.  We call him out telling him to prove it, prove there is a connection

 

3.  End3 basically goes around and calls people idiots, saying "We don't know how it happened!  Were we there?  So my thoughts have validity!  It might've happened!" 

 

4.  And we arrive 6 pages later with no End3 in sight proving his original positive claim.

 

He can't get it through his head that he's the one who made the claim and so must demonstrate it.

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Equating mental illness and sin is disgusting.

 

The whole point of mental illness… to a certain degree, is that the afflicted do not have freedom of choice, they are not entirely in control mentally of their faculties. To make this a moral issue is incomprehensible, and abhorrent.

 

Fuck off.

Don't know why you can't comprehend that it may not be a function of the person directly but past generations and past circumstances. Don't think you are understanding. Matter of fact I expressly said "we are so far removed" from cause that it makes sense to love everyone.

 

And did you ever hear of have a conversation just for the exercise in asking the questions? If you want to get all emotional about it.....

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I would advise against trying to get any sense out of end3 on these matters.  He is not qualified to talk about mental illness.  Or religion.  Or science.

Check you facts ma'am. I manage an analytical laboratory for a $100,000,000 corporation and own an analytical lab myself, have been so far in depression that I am educated enough to understand the meds associated with mental illness are a farce and am as qualified and anyone for religious interpretation.

 

What we might try is better communication, after all, these are relationship issues...

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Prove your "schizo = orig sin" idea End3. 

 

Ravenstar can slap your christian religion from here back to your sky daddy with her historical research.

 

RNP and BAA can refute the same religion's scientific contradictions.

 

Puffing your chest doesn't prove your original post's claims.

 

Rather, it only makes us more pitiful of you, that an otherwise sane man can be so diluted by his religion that he makes claims linking all sorts of things back to it. 

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Check you facts ma'am. I manage an analytical laboratory for a $100,000,000 corporation and own an analytical lab myself, have been so far in depression that I am educated enough to understand the meds associated with mental illness are a farce and am as qualified and anyone for religious interpretation.

 

What we might try is better communication, after all, these are relationship issues...

 

 

Sorry end but there....red bold...just there you confirm your lack of understanding. I do have friends who are on pschoactive meds and they work just fine. I just talked to one of them this past winter because I consider to go on meds and it was an honest talk about how those meds work, side effects and all. When she started taking them she was an emotional wrack and was about to go crazy maybe losing her job due to it and not having many friends. Now she has many friends, a long term relationship for the first time in her entire life, did another degree that allowed her to get a better job and is having fun at work etc. There are plenty of people you would never even think they take meds and who live awesome lives because of it...who would end up on the streets or so otherwise. Just because something has not worked for you does not mean it is useless and a farce. So stop pretending to know things just because it is your personal experience. Do some actual research please.

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I would advise against trying to get any sense out of end3 on these matters.  He is not qualified to talk about mental illness.  Or religion.  Or science.

Check you facts ma'am. I manage an analytical laboratory for a $100,000,000 corporation and own an analytical lab myself, have been so far in depression that I am educated enough to understand the meds associated with mental illness are a farce and am as qualified and anyone for religious interpretation.

 

What we might try is better communication, after all, these are relationship issues...

 

I know you were replying to FreeThinkerNZ, but I'm also sorry if my post came across as insulting.

 

I think you might be confusing people by leaving out steps in your reasoning and assuming that people can fill in the blanks because they are familiar with your past discussions or that something seems obvious to you that isn't obvious to others.

 

I always find your threads interesting, but I can't quite figure out what you are proposing in them. (I admit I am sometimes dense. smile.png )

 

Also, I agree that psych meds might be over-prescribed right now, because it is easier for everybody. Mental health is harder to measure than physical health. Even physical health is very complex. (Not that I'm opposed to psych meds when they help people.)

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Yes I am guilty of mental jumps, leaving out the other participant to make the jumps for themselves. Apologies.

 

Working backward, it appears these conditions have genetic components that are identifiable. And it seems like we have identified these conditions as disease or abnormal to the point where we wish to help "find a cure" for those afflicted.

 

And we know that environmental conditions or how we treat people have a genetic effect.

 

And we know now that some of these effects are not reset at birth, but carried on.

 

So when we ask ourselves (Ravenstar), what is the cause of these conditions, we can say "it just happens" at no fault of the one that inherited the condition....which is true, and we can identify the history of that person's environment or treatment or even their past relatives environment and treatment to gather information regarding the origin and cause of these conditions. If people do not wish to define it by some action(s) through our choices and behaviors, that is being dishonest.....as it is based on decisions. Additionally, we do not know nor likely ever know how to live or where to live on this planet that provides the perfect combination to promote eternal life. So again, you take the mythic storyline of the Bible where it talks about a fallen world, and love your neighbor because none of us are outside of this condition and many more instances where the Bible just has a remarkably good guess at the human condition and do with it what you may. No one has all the answers.

 

The point is, yes, the inheritance may be absolutely no fault of their own, but it may have a lot to do with the past history of the group.

 

It's just interesting to me that the genetic change will revert apparently after a few generations as the Scripture seems to acknowledge as well.

 

I am sometimes taken back by how much many people here want to assign me as a terrible person for participating mentally in these topics. END3, fuck off for asking the questions....you are a bad bad person. You obviously are evil and an idiot to boot. Die, die, die.

 

Just because I discuss them, many don't know what I really believe. But truthfully, this one seems rather straightforward unless someone can give me reason to not assign behaviors with genetic change.

 

Defining it as "sin" is subjective I am thinking.

I can't see this any other way really. It's factual at this point.

 

We are constantly searching for ways to treat our children for the best possible outcome for them and their children. I don't think this is coincidence at all.

 

To the mental health drugs....went through many antidepressants, sedatives, per the MDs telling me I just had to find the "right one" for me. I don't deny they help some people, but one of them nearly made me kill myself. I think they have the capability to altering one's perception such that you think what you are thinking is viable, but it's actually not. In that, I am less than impressed with the guessing and efficacy of some of these drugs......not to mention the side effects.

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