A Confused Believing Agnostic

[Ziggy]

Hey Open_Minded / pritishd (now Skeptic?) are you still monitoring this thread?

Just in case you were interested we had that discussion group run by a leader in the Church regarding the inspiration of the Bible. I thought I would fill you in ..

 

I had studied for it - including those canon references - and found that the guy speaking had been very fair. He had done his homework alright and pretty much covered everything to the extent that many people there (Mostly life long Christians) were a bit taken aback! It is destablising hearing this sort of stuff that you have thus far never questioned and i felt a bit of empathy for them (I had the same feelings albeit quite a long time ago now.)

 

The leader is an active elder so we was not trying to disprove Christ of course. What they did was state that the there are 'archways' that are not in question - That God exists, that Christs lived and died and was Gods Son. We did n't expand on that although i wanted to ask what they thought about heaven and hell becasue I know some of them do not believe in them... but i left it. I didn't want to upset people more..

 

After that they discussed the history of the bible and the misconceptions that many Christians have of it. They pointed out the contradictions and how you could not take alot of the bible literally etc

 

In the end the consensus was that the principles behind the the words were what we should be looking for and that there is spiritual truth there which can be applied and is relevent to us today A fairly positive outlook i suppose but does it anser all the questions

 

Overall i think a very honest discussion and very different to many people exerience of Christianity especially in the US bible belt.

 

I'm going to E mail the leader about the heaven and hell thing and see what he says.

 

BTW - I'm changing my name Robert UK seems incredibly boring... I';ll be Ziggy of David Bowie fame

[SkepticOfBible]

The leader is an active elder so we was not trying to disprove Christ of course.

I understand.

What they did was state that the there are 'archways' that are not in question - That God exists, that Christs lived and died and was Gods Son.

What the real question is that why didn't god reveal about his son in the OT?What's with the hints?

 

I know some of them do not believe in them... but i left it. I didn't want to upset people more..

 

yeah, but i wouldn't spare those who believe in torturous hell.

 

Check out these articles

 

The injustice of Hell

 

Salvation Questions

 

 

After that they discussed the history of the bible and the misconceptions that many Christians have of it. They pointed out the contradictions and how you could not take alot of the bible literally etc

 

"but only take verses literally when you want them to be"

 

Well, hopefully you will observe that in your dealings with christians is that the bible becomes whatever the bible wants it to be.

 

In the end the consensus was that the principles behind the the words were what we should be looking for and that there is spiritual truth there which can be applied and is relevent to us today A fairly positive outlook i suppose but does it anser all the questions

 

Also one should not ignore the skeptical outlook.

[Open_Minded]

Hey Open_Minded / pritishd (now Skeptic?) are you still monitoring this thread? Just in case you were interested we had that discussion group run by a leader in the Church regarding the inspiration of the Bible. I thought I would fill you in ..

<Sniip>

 

After that they discussed the history of the bible and the misconceptions that many Christians have of it. They pointed out the contradictions and how you could not take alot of the bible literally etc

 

In the end the consensus was that the principles behind the the words were what we should be looking for and that there is spiritual truth there which can be applied and is relevent to us today A fairly positive outlook i suppose but does it anser all the questions

 

Overall i think a very honest discussion and very different to many people exerience of Christianity especially in the US bible belt.

 

I'm going to E mail the leader about the heaven and hell thing and see what he says.

 

Robert/Ziggy...

 

Congratulations... you all took a very big step....

 

It souinds as if these people did a fair and wonderful job. You are correct - it is not easy for people to hear about these things when they've gone their whole life believing something else.

 

I also understand the leaders position. In case you didn't know - I've been run out of a church (along with the pastor and several other families) because I had the audacity to teach 8th grade Sunday school students about other religions. The kids are exposed to other religions because they have friends at school who are something other than Christian. The pastor worked with me on developing the lessons, the parents had a fit and by the time it was all said and done the pastor lost his position and many families felt the need to leave.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that for long-term education I have found it is best to take baby steps with people. The church I'm at now completely supports what we're doing. But we didn't get there over night. We had to educate in baby steps. If the leadership of your congregation is willing to take the baby steps it is a good sign.

 

Long term.... you just have to keep plugging away at it. 10 years ago members of our congregationi had never heard of "universalism". After 9/11 the environment changed. People began to understand the dangers of literalism and discussions in our congregation started moving forward a bit faster. But, it has only been recently, that we've started to have discussions (in small groups) about what it means to be Christian and not accept literally the resurrection. That it is possible to look at Jesus as the Word made Flesh without accepting the resurrection as literal historical fact.

 

Well, hopefully you will observe that in your dealings with christians is that the bible becomes whatever the bible wants it to be.

 

There is a lot of truth in this statement. Robert/Ziggy... you may want to explore having a discussion topic around that very statement. How do we read the Bible in a well balanced way? What tools are available to us so that we can read it in context? I've learned over the years that a lot of education has to be done on how scholars come to the conclusions they come to. Once people see that there is methodology behind what they are learning then they are more likely to ask questions that lead to a more balanced understanding of Biblical text.

 

Our congregation has three services (traditional, contemporary and meditative/interfaith). At contemporary and meditative/interfaith there is no "sermon" as most people know it. Instead there is a discussion time around the sacred texts that have already been read. It is not uncommon at all to hear members ask our pastor about the original Greek or Hebrew language. Other contextual questions come up as well. We can have these discussions because we've done the work of teaching people the importance of context. We can also have these discussions because we've also done the work of addressing Skeptic's statement... not just once, but within the our regular discussions. That concern has to be a part of one's mindset if one is going to take a balanced approach to reading the Bible.

 

Also one should not ignore the skeptical outlook.

 

How very true... the only way to really learn is to be skeptical and to trust that the answers will increase your understanding.

 

BTW - I'm changing my name Robert UK seems incredibly boring... I';ll be Ziggy of David Bowie fame

 

I don't know who that is... but then I've never been a David Bowie fan Still, Ziggy is a nice name

[Ziggy]

yeah, but i wouldn't spare those who believe in torturous hell.

 

"but only take verses literally when you want them to be"

 

Well, hopefully you will observe that in your dealings with christians is that the bible becomes whatever the bible wants it to be.

 

Also one should not ignore the skeptical outlook.

 

Skeptic, I believe that on the whole these people are honest. I cannot speak for all of them but i do think that 50 % would not adhere to the torturous hell thing. It is clear that many people on this forum are hurt by evangelical / fundamentalist protestant Christianity but although these guys are under that banner the manner of their faith is hugely different to that of bible belt Christians (or at least the ones we see on TV in the UK)

 

As open minded says these are small steps but the first are very important and people need time to adjust. They cannot do any more at the moment even although i agree with you - they are not answering the questions first off. Only a fundy christian can do that !

As you know yourself who does have all the answers?

 

I was grateful for your links on the canon. I came prepared and could judge the guys honesty by comparing it to my own new found knowledge Thanks

 

 

But, it has only been recently, that we've started to have discussions (in small groups) about what it means to be Christian and not accept literally the resurrection. That it is possible to look at Jesus as the Word made Flesh without accepting the resurrection as literal historical fact.

 

OM - viewing the resurrection as not historical fact would give them a seizure

However the next but one topic is going to raise that question in a slightly indirect manner. Its called "Is there really no hope for those who die without Christ?" and will have to deal with the hell thing and then that would have to lead to the resurrection etc. Core issues for evangelical Christians.

 

Your story about your old church is interesting. I have heard that a couple in our church (not present at the metting on Sunday) wanted to take their child out of a science class because it taught evolution. i was staggered... i thought that only happen in america!

 

So maybe there will be a backlash IF this becomes more than just an accasional meeting We'll see

 

The other strange thig about that meeting was mu Mum and Dad were there My Mum especially was always 'no discussion' about faith but now she has really opened out and we can talk about faith now becasue she can accept skeptisism without it affecting her too deeply.

Also there were people there that became Christians through me about 20 years ago.. Now I am the back bencher taking an agnostic view and they are up there running the Church. They may feel a bit threatened by this as many converts are stonger in the literal readings of the bible becasue that is what they believed when they came to Christianity

However the fact they were at that meeting shows an open minded ness of sorts that bodes well for the future - whatever that will entail.

 

Thank you for your posts. They are encouraging and always positive and its been great to have a your views based on your experience with similar mind sets and thoughts. Its almost as it was meant to be.. although whether anything is planned is another thread

 

 

After declaring I would now be Ziggy I can't find a way to change my name Oh well ..

[Open_Minded]

yeah, but i wouldn't spare those who believe in torturous hell.

 

"but only take verses literally when you want them to be"

 

Well, hopefully you will observe that in your dealings with christians is that the bible becomes whatever the bible wants it to be.

 

Also one should not ignore the skeptical outlook.

 

Skeptic, I believe that on the whole these people are honest. I cannot speak for all of them but i do think that 50 % would not adhere to the torturous hell thing. It is clear that many people on this forum are hurt by evangelical / fundamentalist protestant Christianity but although these guys are under that banner the manner of their faith is hugely different to that of bible belt Christians (or at least the ones we see on TV in the UK)

 

As open minded says these are small steps but the first are very important and people need time to adjust. They cannot do any more at the moment even although i agree with you - they are not answering the questions first off. Only a fundy christian can do that !

As you know yourself who does have all the answers?

 

I was grateful for your links on the canon. I came prepared and could judge the guys honesty by comparing it to my own new found knowledge Thanks

 

 

But, it has only been recently, that we've started to have discussions (in small groups) about what it means to be Christian and not accept literally the resurrection. That it is possible to look at Jesus as the Word made Flesh without accepting the resurrection as literal historical fact.

 

OM - viewing the resurrection as not historical fact would give them a seizure

However the next but one topic is going to raise that question in a slightly indirect manner. Its called "Is there really no hope for those who die without Christ?" and will have to deal with the hell thing and then that would have to lead to the resurrection etc. Core issues for evangelical Christians.

 

Your story about your old church is interesting. I have heard that a couple in our church (not present at the metting on Sunday) wanted to take their child out of a science class because it taught evolution. i was staggered... i thought that only happen in america!

 

So maybe there will be a backlash IF this becomes more than just an accasional meeting We'll see

 

The other strange thig about that meeting was mu Mum and Dad were there My Mum especially was always 'no discussion' about faith but now she has really opened out and we can talk about faith now becasue she can accept skeptisism without it affecting her too deeply.

Also there were people there that became Christians through me about 20 years ago.. Now I am the back bencher taking an agnostic view and they are up there running the Church. They may feel a bit threatened by this as many converts are stonger in the literal readings of the bible becasue that is what they believed when they came to Christianity

However the fact they were at that meeting shows an open minded ness of sorts that bodes well for the future - whatever that will entail.

 

Thank you for your posts. They are encouraging and always positive and its been great to have a your views based on your experience with similar mind sets and thoughts. Its almost as it was meant to be.. although whether anything is planned is another thread

 

 

After declaring I would now be Ziggy I can't find a way to change my name Oh well ..

 

Keep us posted... I really am interested to hear how upcoming meetings go.

 

It will require a lot of patience.... but education happening within the church is essential if humanity is ever to move beyond literalism.

[Guest sawitch]

 

Hi Robert,

 

Like you I am new to this site and also from the UK. I could have written this myself, so yes there are people who feel like you.

 

I knew I wasn't unique, but have found it hard to find a way of expressing similar doubts. I'm not sure where these doubts are going to take me but it's very interesting reading others' comments and experiences.

 

Sorry, haven't got the hang of quotes yet!!

 

Robert I was referring to your first post.

[Pariah]

sawitch: To make a quote paste the text, select it, and then press the quote button.

It looks like this:

 

Hope that helps.

[Ziggy]

 

Hi Robert,

 

Like you I am new to this site and also from the UK. I could have written this myself, so yes there are people who feel like you.

 

I knew I wasn't unique, but have found it hard to find a way of expressing similar doubts. I'm not sure where these doubts are going to take me but it's very interesting reading others' comments and experiences.

 

Sorry, haven't got the hang of quotes yet!!

 

Robert I was referring to your first post.

 

Hi Sawitch, It took me a few goes before I got the hang of the quotes ! Trial and error

 

I find it interesting and sad that the best and most helpful responses i have had to these sorts of questions have been from people who have had to come out of their established Christian circles

 

You ask these things to some Christians and you get nowhere at all (in fact it makes your doubts worse sometimes) I think they are just to afraid (?) to consider anything but the literal bible

 

not everyone outside Christian circles are 'enemies' Many are are good people still searching honestly for some spiritual truth but just not blindly

 

Its not an easy path because there are no absolutes but if you find like minded people that path is all the easier

 

 

Above is an example of how NOT To use quotes

 

Intentional of course ..

[Guest runaway]

Hi Robert. Thanks for starting this interesting thread.

 

Im another one - also from the UK. Confused and full of doubts and questions after 10 years of being a solid evangelical. Now nothing seems to make sense but evangelical circles are not the place to ask any questions that challenge those preciously held 'fundamental' beleifs.

 

Glad to see a few others like me on this thread. I was trying to find other people who feel the same way when i came across this site (i love it here) and its good to know (at last) im not the only one.

 

Can i ask you, you still go to church - what kind of church is it? What denomination? Is it evangelical etc. It sounds like you have people there you can talk your doubts over with. I would not dream of being so honest about my true feelings with my christian friends.

[Alice]

Sawitch, Robert, Runaway - just wanted to introduce myself as another brit with lots of cross overs in my 'story' ...

 

I finally left church when my doubts became too much for others to bear ... I found that short periods of questioning were acceptable ... but there was a expectation that one would step back in line pretty sharpish and that questioning was expected to lead to greater certainty that would then be used to bolster anyone else with doubts ...

 

I was very cautious about this site when I first stumbled across it - in fact I used to known as 'Hesistent' - some days now I don't know what I'd have done without it ... and I have been able to find my own niche and express my own brand of questions in my own way. Which has been brilliant

[Ziggy]

Im another one - also from the UK. Confused and full of doubts and questions after 10 years of being a solid evangelical. Now nothing seems to make sense but evangelical circles are not the place to ask any questions that challenge those preciously held 'fundamental' beleifs.

 

Glad to see a few others like me on this thread. I was trying to find other people who feel the same way when i came across this site (i love it here) and its good to know (at last) im not the only one.

 

Can i ask you, you still go to church - what kind of church is it? What denomination? Is it evangelical etc. It sounds like you have people there you can talk your doubts over with. I would not dream of being so honest about my true feelings with my christian friends.

 

Hi Runaway, welcome to the site I thought this site was going to be a place to talk and debate all the negatives regarding Christianity. Of course I was able to do that but its also been a great source of knowledge and debate with like minded people who are still holding on to some sort of faith or are 'seeking' in a positive sense. Its not the all or nothing that my brand of evangelicalism ever taught

 

I go to a Church that is evengelical. It used to be a Brethren but the part I am in split from the main brethren Church about 15 years ago due to differences of how the Church should be run (the existing elders at the time insisted on women wearing hats, women never speaking, keeping the old Hymns or praise hymn books etc)

 

There are people there who preach heaven and hell etc and are very stong evangelical but I have found that not everyone is like this. And I have found an elder is very liberal in his thinking and basically thinks there is not just way spritual way . In fact he would fit in well on this site.. but he still holds on to Christianity (I am meeting him for a coffee soon and maybe I can find out why exactly!)

 

I also joined the Christian Forum at the same timeas joining this one. BUt you have to fend off the bible thumpers to get to the people who will talk rationally about the problems within the Christian Religion. It becomes tiring ..

 

I finally left church when my doubts became too much for others to bear ... I found that short periods of questioning were acceptable ... but there was a expectation that one would step back in line pretty sharpish and that questioning was expected to lead to greater certainty that would then be used to bolster anyone else with doubts ...

 

Alice you may be some steps ahead or me. I don't know if i will end up leaving or if i can find a way of being honest with my own beliefs and feel there are others who accept and hold similar views - and therefore keep going.

For many its all or nothing but do you think it has to be that way ? Do you still have a faith of sorts and if so how would you describe it ?

 

Anyway this elder i spoke about is running a series of meetings on issues that trouble many honest Christians. Is there hope for people who are not christians, can we take the bible seriously when we consider its actual history... The kind of questions you want to ask but usually cannot So the Church gives me the ability to think things through within the church... so i'm sticking around for now

 

And the thing is I know I am not the only one but many keep it quiet and stay because they are part of the Church family. If the Church has a future this may be the only way to go .. ?

[Guest sawitch]

Hi Alice and runaway,

 

Like you I tried to discuss my doubts with my church friends, but with no luck. The stock answer seems to be 'Leave it with the Lord' I get frustrated that folk I have known for 20 years won't entertain a frank discussion.

 

Because of that I needed to find a place where it was possible and so I found this site which has been a revelation. Great site webmaster

!!

I also joined the christian forum but am finding it hard to get past the 'happy clappy' attitudes. Have you got any threads or forums you'd recommend?

[NorthenSun]

 

Anyway this elder i spoke about is running a series of meetings on issues that trouble many honest Christians. Is there hope for people who are not christians, can we take the bible seriously when we consider its actual history... The kind of questions you want to ask but usually cannot So the Church gives me the ability to think things through within the church... so i'm sticking around for now

 

This seems like a pretty risky activity for a church to engage in: to ask their members to think deeply about their religious beliefs. Its one thing to sit around and discuss whether the church luncheons should be held on the first or last Sunday of the month, while quite another to debate something like whether prayers are answered or not. The main advantage of the church is that it is a community of people who provide companionship, social activities, and some spiritual support for their members. The rituals of the service and the calendar of events (Advent, Christmas, Easter, Pentecost , Summer Bible School) reinforce the traditions of the church. Much of these activities are simple routine which does not require insightful contemplation of the meaning of religion. And that’s a good thing for the church, because there are not any answers to the doubts in thinking people that will inevitably arise as they ponder the meaning of their religion. Unless you are willing to accept “The ways of the Lord are mysterious.” or “All I know is God is Love.”

 

Of course, for the world, doubts in any religion’s members are a good thing. It gives them pause to reflect on the path of destruction that their ministers or mullahs seem hell bent on leading us and them toward.

[Alice]

 

Alice you may be some steps ahead or me. I don't know if i will end up leaving or if i can find a way of being honest with my own beliefs and feel there are others who accept and hold similar views - and therefore keep going.

For many its all or nothing but do you think it has to be that way ? Do you still have a faith of sorts and if so how would you describe it ?

 

 

In order to be ahead - the journey would have to be a linear one ... I'm not sure that it is anymore I love Open_Minded's use of puzzle pieces analogies. We all are likely to have pieces of the puzzle - and can make very beneficial exchanges of the parts we've collected on our individual journeys.

 

I have moved away from the 'label' christian (because for me I no longer believe that Jesus died for me to pay the price for my sin), but I still find value in some of Jesus teachings (not based on any belief in him having been a particular 'somebody' - but simply because I see some value in the teachings) - I see value in a number of other world religions and philosophies as well.

 

I guess I am a deist of sorts.

 

I find value in the process of rejecting some scriptural teachings - just as much as I do when I find the ones I wish to ascribe to. (This is my understanding of the idea that god is present when the scriptures are debated - I find this process a 'spiritual' one, in which I become aware of concepts and ideas and forces that transcend ordinary experience)

 

As I hope you can see - I am not an all or nothing person - my experience is however that most fundamentalists/literalists are. Whilst I believe that I have kept hold of great swathes of my 'faith' (maybe belief system would be a more apt term than faith here) most of my remaining bible believing friends are struggling with this and see my change in direction as a 'throwing everything out'.

 

Hi Alice and runaway,

 

Like you I tried to discuss my doubts with my church friends, but with no luck. The stock answer seems to be 'Leave it with the Lord' I get frustrated that folk I have known for 20 years won't entertain a frank discussion.

 

Because of that I needed to find a place where it was possible and so I found this site which has been a revelation. Great site webmaster

!!

I also joined the christian forum but am finding it hard to get past the 'happy clappy' attitudes. Have you got any threads or forums you'd recommend?

 

Sawitch, I'm glad you are feeling the benefits of membership of this site. My favourite threads here, in terms of the most useful discussion for me - have been the 'leaving Jesus is not leaving God' thread, later parts of the Unholiness of the Bible thread and the two recent threads with questions for universalist/liberal christans.... having said this I can think of dozens of others.

 

I have found that I have to limit myself to three or four threads only at any one time - or the rest of my life begins to suffer.

 

I know what you mean about the frustration that comes from some peoples reluctance to enter into frank discussion ... I hope people will take this in the right 'spirit' when I say that this is one of the reasons this site has been such a 'godsend' for me!

[Ouroboros]

I have found that I have to limit myself to three or four threads only at any one time - or the rest of my life begins to suffer.

You too? I stick to a few threads, and skip many. Not because they're not interesting, it's just to demanding to be involved in discussions in all of them. And sometimes, I stumble into one at a later time, that I didn't follow when it was "hot".

[Guest runaway]

Hi Alice and runaway,

 

Like you I tried to discuss my doubts with my church friends, but with no luck. The stock answer seems to be 'Leave it with the Lord' I get frustrated that folk I have known for 20 years won't entertain a frank discussion.

 

Because of that I needed to find a place where it was possible and so I found this site which has been a revelation. Great site webmaster

!!

I also joined the christian forum but am finding it hard to get past the 'happy clappy' attitudes. Have you got any threads or forums you'd recommend?

 

Hi Sawitch,

 

i dont have any forums im really familiar with to recommend but i found one that looks like it might be worth checking out. i'll give it a proper look over when i have the time.

 

http://www.theooze.com/forums/topics.cfm?forumid=10

 

i found it through a link off of here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_church

 

hope that helps

[Ziggy]

This seems like a pretty risky activity for a church to engage in: to ask their members to think deeply about their religious beliefs. Its one thing to sit around and discuss whether the church luncheons should be held on the first or last Sunday of the month, while quite another to debate something like whether prayers are answered or not. The main advantage of the church is that it is a community of people who provide companionship, social activities, and some spiritual support for their members. The rituals of the service and the calendar of events (Advent, Christmas, Easter, Pentecost , Summer Bible School) reinforce the traditions of the church. Much of these activities are simple routine which does not require insightful contemplation of the meaning of religion. And that’s a good thing for the church, because there are not any answers to the doubts in thinking people that will inevitably arise as they ponder the meaning of their religion. Unless you are willing to accept “The ways of the Lord are mysterious.” or “All I know is God is Love.”

 

NorthernSun I suppose it is risky.. To be honest I don't know where it will lead but I am hoping it will not destroy the Church or cause people in it to lose faith .. just open their eyes to a less exclusive view of their faith. I find it hard to see a future in a totally exclusive view but then people said that 50 years ago anyway i am there more to listen and as it provides me with a way of dealing with some difficult issues without having to leave the church then for me at least its a good thing... And I would imagine there are others like me

 

I - like Alice - still have a 'belief system' and see myself as on some sort of path to find out exactly what it means Its good to outside the all or nothing fundy box!

 

In order to be ahead - the journey would have to be a linear one ... I'm not sure that it is anymore I love Open_Minded's use of puzzle pieces analogies. We all are likely to have pieces of the puzzle - and can make very beneficial exchanges of the parts we've collected on our individual journeys.

 

Alice I agree I don't think any two peoples paths are linear. Any belief is made up of our individual experiences, personality and back ground and so will be unique to us. And that is a good thing Free from the fundy box of all or nothing faith!

OM has been very helpful in this respect. Partly in sharing what he believes and also how to find your own path of 'faith' 'belief system' 'enlightenment' or whatever you find most appropriate to call it

 

I think that there is one big step that will be familiar with almost all people on this board and that is the leaving of the Church ..or staying. For me I am able to stay but it may be that the leaving part is a step in the future - who knows? But it is a question that almost all here will have to consider I think

 

BTW I find following 4 threads too much! 2 is about my limit but thats because I only do this usually in work time and not in the evenings. Some people must spend ALOT of time here

[NorthenSun]

Robert

 

I have been to Europe, but sadly not yet to the UK or Ireland. One pleasure of the broadband internet that I found is the live feed from BBC Radio One. In about an hour my favorite show, the Essential Selection with Pete Tong, comes on. Its different from most of the stations in the US with its dance and remix format, but I really like it. Three hours of party dance music, it starts the weekend off right for me. Kind of like a connection with a whole different world for a short time.

 

While I am waiting for that show I’m listening to U2. Their lyrics are always so ambiguous to me. Is Bono talking about the relationship between humans in general, or that special one between a man and a woman, or about people and some mysterious Other? Or all three at once, or none? You wrote:

 

I - like Alice - still have a 'belief system' and see myself as on some sort of path to find out exactly what it means

 

I agree, aren’t we all on this search. The search for that special touch. As U2 writes:

 

Touch me

Take me to that other place

Reach me

I know I'm not a hopeless case

 

Is it that touch of a lover, the connection with a friend, or is there something else? I wish I knew the answer, but I know part of it is in the same song:

 

It's a beautiful day

Don't let it get away

Sorry for being too sentimental, it’s the music. Hope you have a great weekend.

[Guest runaway]

There are people there who preach heaven and hell etc and are very stong evangelical but I have found that not everyone is like this. And I have found an elder is very liberal in his thinking and basically thinks there is not just way spritual way . In fact he would fit in well on this site.. but he still holds on to Christianity (I am meeting him for a coffee soon and maybe I can find out why exactly!)

 

Hi Robert,

 

It sounds like you go to an interesting church with a mix of opinions and an openness to discussions and questions. I hope it works out. I personally found I had to leave the evangelical church altogether. I now go to a non evangelical anglican church where it is easier to take a back seat and you dont get told dogmatically what to think. It suits me for now. I don't beleive that leaving church is the end of the world.

 

I finally left church when my doubts became too much for others to bear ... I found that short periods of questioning were acceptable ... but there was a expectation that one would step back in line pretty sharpish and that questioning was expected to lead to greater certainty that would then be used to bolster anyone else with doubts ...

 

It's a real shame that the church cant handle honest questions. I beleive there are many people in this situation. Its horrible and patronising when you bring up an earnest opinion and you're just given some pat answer and expected to accept it and thats that. I don't blame you for leaving. Its so wrong for church folk to be unaccepting in that way. Faith is a journey but in some churches you become a Christian and thats that, everythng is certain from that point on. I think the church stifles its members when it refuses to let them think freely, and if it didnt try and have such tight control over everyones point of view church would be a much healthier and more attractive place. No wonder most people dont want to touch it with a barge pole.

 

Hi Alice,

 

oops, 2nd para in my last post was meant to be addressed to you.

I can't edit these darn posts once you click that Add reply button.

 

[Open_Minded]

NorthernSun I suppose it is risky.. To be honest I don't know where it will lead but I am hoping it will not destroy the Church or cause people in it to lose faith .. just open their eyes to a less exclusive view of their faith. I find it hard to see a future in a totally exclusive view but then people said that 50 years ago anyway i am there more to listen and as it provides me with a way of dealing with some difficult issues without having to leave the church then for me at least its a good thing... And I would imagine there are others like me

 

Robert... your presence in that church is making a difference. I've been a "rabble rouser" in my congregation for 10 years. (I say that with a light-heart, because that is what people tease me about. ) Anyway - it's not always easy. But ... I have had a few elderly members come to me privately and thank me. They tell me when they were my age they were involved in getting Lutherans and Catholics to talk with each other, or Lutherans and other protestant churches. They remember when a Lutheran marrying a Catholic was huge. And now, it's pretty well accepted. Anyway - they've told me that the current search for understanding between Christians and non-christians is the next logical step.

 

There is no doubt the process is agonizingly slow ... but the work has to be done.

 

In the end, you'll know where you belong. Whether it's putting pressure on the church to change from the inside (or out) it doesn't matter. There is plenty of work to go around.

[Alice]

 

It's a real shame that the church cant handle honest questions. I beleive there are many people in this situation. Its horrible and patronising when you bring up an earnest opinion and you're just given some pat answer and expected to accept it and thats that. I don't blame you for leaving. Its so wrong for church folk to be unaccepting in that way. Faith is a journey but in some churches you become a Christian and thats that, everythng is certain from that point on. I think the church stifles its members when it refuses to let them think freely, and if it didnt try and have such tight control over everyones point of view church would be a much healthier and more attractive place. No wonder most people dont want to touch it with a barge pole.

 

Hi Alice,

 

oops, 2nd para in my last post was meant to be addressed to you.

I can't edit these darn posts once you click that Add reply button.

 

 

There should be an edit button at the bottom of your post that stays there for a while (not sure how long - I'd be lost without that edit button ...somehow typos's show up all the more easily once I've posted!)

 

I think there are probably churches out there where I could still 'fit in' without compromising my integrity - but at the moment I enjoy my sunday morning sleep in too much! The last church I was in was going down the line of tighter and tighter control - they had just introduced a 'statement of beliefs' that members were being expected to sign up to.

 

I do miss being part of a 'community' - that went with church membership.

[Ziggy]

I think there are probably churches out there where I could still 'fit in' without compromising my integrity - but at the moment I enjoy my sunday morning sleep in too much! The last church I was in was going down the line of tighter and tighter control - they had just introduced a 'statement of beliefs' that members were being expected to sign up to.

 

I do miss being part of a 'community' - that went with church membership.

 

Ok this thread seems to have attracted a handful of people who have similar views - Serious doubts about literalists / fundamentalists but still holding on a inner belief / spirituality of some sorts.

Also Alices last line above about the community of a Church is a very big part of this. I have alot of friends in the church and great respect for many people there. It would be hard to just drop it altogether but at the same time I don't want to be dishonest within myself and make it look like i believe something I don't just for the sake of fitting it.

And i believe there are many many people like me

 

So I have a question..

Can the Church

officially

encompass people like us (I hope I am speaking for others here as well) so that we feel a valued part of it? ie Not just letting you sit at the back without pressurising you ..

Is this possible? OM seems to have made part of his church work along these lines and the factor that joins people together is their sense of spirituality not their belief in ONE WAY only.

 

Can this sort of thing happen or are people who cannot accept the who shebang hook line and sinker always outsiders ?

 

If a church tried this would it loose its focus.. ie what does it preach? What is its main message that it is trying to get across (does it need such a focus)?

Would it fall apart because the point of it is all to vague

 

OM's church seems to have a mian body which is more traditional Christian (the Nicene Creed acceptance etc) but have other meetings which recognise and accept other faiths and beliefs and whose common goal is their search for positive spiritual meaning.

 

Is this the way to go and can it changed from INSIDE the church. SHOULD it be changed or just left ?

 

I know this is a big question but i think this is where i will end up.. either pushing for a change like this or leaving if things are to rigid.

 

 

 

 

FOOTNOTE - Northernsun I'm not sure where the U2 stuff came from but i liked it! I am into music and loved the Joshua Tree but have been off U2 for a long time now.. They just don't do it for me anymore.

And for lyrics and their meaning i have heard artists say that its best for people to make what they want of them but this is rubbish - I want to know why the writer wrote what they wrote !

[Alice]

 

So I have a question..

Can the Church

officially

encompass people like us (I hope I am speaking for others here as well) so that we feel a valued part of it? ... Can this sort of thing happen or are people who cannot accept the who shebang hook line and sinker always outsiders ?

 

If a church tried this would it loose its focus.. ie what does it preach? What is its main message that it is trying to get across (does it need such a focus)?

Would it fall apart because the point of it is all to vague

 

 

In the UK - isn't this what the Church of England has sought to do (bring together people with varying interpretations and understanding of the christian faith)

 

and isn't this the criticism that has been levelled against them (that they have lost their focus and don't really know what they are preaching)?

 

Have you looked into joining a universalist church?

[Open_Minded]

So I have a question..

Can the Church officially encompass people like us (I hope I am speaking for others here as well) so that we feel a valued part of it? ie Not just letting you sit at the back without pressurising you ..

 

Is this possible? OM seems to have made part of his church work along these lines and the factor that joins people together is their sense of spirituality not their belief in ONE WAY only.

 

Can this sort of thing happen or are people who cannot accept the who shebang hook line and sinker always outsiders ?

 

If a church tried this would it loose its focus.. ie what does it preach? What is its main message that it is trying to get across (does it need such a focus)?

Would it fall apart because the point of it is all to vague

 

OM's church seems to have a mian body which is more traditional Christian (the Nicene Creed acceptance etc) but have other meetings which recognise and accept other faiths and beliefs and whose common goal is their search for positive spiritual meaning.

 

Is this the way to go and can it changed from INSIDE the church. SHOULD it be changed or just left ?

 

Robert .... good questions.

 

Obviously - from my individual perspective - I am going to say, "Yes". Yes in a big way. But ... this does not mean I think it is going to happen fast, or easily.

 

Quick review of my own situation:

1. Involved in a mainstream Lutheran church
   
2. Came to this particular congregation 10 years ago - after being run out of another Lutheran church. (Reason: Teaching 12-13 year-old Sunday School children about other faiths. The children asked me to teach them about faiths of their friends in the public school system and I had the support of the pastor - and many families. The pastor is no longer at that congregation - when he was forced out I was as well and 6-7 families followed me to the congregation I'm at now.)
   
3. Our current congregation knew we were "rabble rousers" when they accepted us - with open arms I might add.
   
4. Six years ago we started a meditation group.
   
5. Five years ago we began to invite guests in from other religions for ocassional dialog.
   
6. Our meditative/interfaith service will be two years old in May. The rest of the congregation moved other services to accomodate us. The traditional and contemporary services moved to earlier time slots so that we could get a third service in before noon. This means that our elderly population (they generally attend traditional service) was moved to the earliest time slot. We got very little complaint. When we started this service - a representative from our local synod offices came out and talked with the church council about interfaith dialog, etc... Our council voted unanomously to institute the third service.
   
7. We are currently studying such things as... * Aramaic Words of Jesus by Neil Douglas-Klotz (from the Sufi tradition) and * Beyond Belief - the Secret Gospel of Thomas by Elaine Pagels (Her work is controversial within the more conservative branches of Christianity).
   
8. Our group is quite small. There are about 20-25 people who have interest but only about 5-8 people who show up regularly
   

The above is a short summary - do not think all this has happened smoothly. We have struggled to get where we are at now.

 

I have come damn near close to walking away innumerable times. From start to finish I've watched two pastors pushed out of their posts because they've pushed the edges. What boils me is that most people in our congregation(s) were supportive of the pastors. But, it only takes a few

 

I've learned to stay the course - is the best route. Watching two excellent pastors forced from their positions over these issues has been the biggest trial. Outside of that we have had to have very difficult discussions within our congregation - discussions your congregation is just now beginning to have.

 

But, you know what Robert, one of the people most supportive of our group is a gentleman who I had to have some very difficult discussions with. When I came here he read the Bible literally, he was constantly talking about being "saved". He is a very open-minded person and very gracious. But, he had been taught to look at things this way and never really questioned them. Well ... then we met... and I don't keep my mouth shut. Long and short of it, after many, many discussions about things like "being saved", the crucifixion, reading the Bible in context and of our understandings of God, of Christianity, of people who are not Christian, etc... He has grown. And now ... all these years later he is one of my strongest supporters and I consider him a close friend.

 

What lessons have I learned the hard way.

1. If you're a lay person - take the lead - don't ask your minister to do it. For some reason congregations zero in on a minister when they are not happy. The highest price we've paid for the gains we have is the loss of two excellent ministers.
   
2. It is necessary - however - to have the support of your pastor. With the pastor's support - in time you can educate people and earn the support of decision making bodies. Our council was so supportive of what we are doing because they trusted our pastor, and he has has been supportive from the get-go. He came here about 6 years ago. The pastor before him was also supportive - but more active in his support. As in the situation before ... it only took a few minority members ... but he was forced out because he was more active in his support. The pastor we have now ... seems to be able to walk that fine line better. We couldn't have done this without him and yet he operates very much low-key.
   
3. Take your time and be patient. This is a big one for me. Sometimes I just want to let go and walk away, but deep down I keep going because I know this is my piece of the puzzle. The church will change because of pressure. The pressure must come from both within and without. I have come to believe that my piece of the puzzle is to apply pressure from within. I know - and deeply respect - many people who have decided their piece of the puzzle is to apply pressure from without. We each have to make our individual choices. But ... if you stay it will require great patience. I can stay because there are others, like myself, who want to see change. That is the ONLY reason I have been able to stay.
   

You asked, "If a church tried this would it loose its focus.. ie what does it preach?". No... this does not have to happen. The name of our ministry is the Whole Healing Ministry. Our focus is.... A Healing Journey: Exploring Spiritual Interconnectedness

 

Wouldn't you say the world in general needs to focus a bit on spiritual interconnectedness?

 

If someone wants the traditional Lutheran message they can:

 

1. Go to one of our other services.

2. Go to one of 3 other Lutheran churches in our community

 

In my mind - it's about time faith organizations from all religions started working on spiritual interconnectedness. How many wars have been fought because humanity has not wanted to explore and understand people who are different from themselves.

 

The thing is Robert... mainstream seminaries have been tackling these issues for years. Pastors come out of seminary having had some education in other world religions. They've been taught to read the Bible in context, etc... Then they get into the average congregation and are expected to "stuff it". The pastors I work with are excited by this type of thing. They see it as the future of the church and are very encouraging. The two pastors who were forced out made their own decisions and knew the risks they were taking. We are still friends and they don't blame me. In their mind for the church to move forward they had to play their "piece of the puzzle".

 

I wish I had easy answers for you. I have been able to stay because I've found a small group of people who I am comfortable with. I also, strongly, believe that change will only come if there is pressure from within as well as from without. So... this is where I'm at. I hope I'll still be here in 10 years and that our small group will have grown and will be making a difference beyond our congregation.

[Ziggy]

In the UK - isn't this what the Church of England has sought to do (bring together people with varying interpretations and understanding of the christian faith)

 

and isn't this the criticism that has been levelled against them (that they have lost their focus and don't really know what they are preaching)?

 

Have you looked into joining a universalist church?

 

Alice you may be right - there could be a church more suitable but there is the issue of community and i would rather stay and debate (and possibly then have to leave) rather than just leave without explanation.

 

I think there will be critisicm without a doubt But not from all quarters and my point is if we only listen to the literalists / traditionalists then there are many poeple like me (and runaway, sawditch.. yourself) who the church lose Is that right ?

 

 

OM Thanks for the history in one go. I had most of the details form our various other correspondance but Its good to see it all.

Do you have any links that further explain spiritual interconnectedness?

 

Also I think if I can try and fit myself into a Christian Church then i would say its because I believe that Christ demonstrated/taught a way to God. Not necessarily the only way but a way that connects within yourself to what we can commonly call out spiritual side. Muslims or any other religion could also find this way but through some of the teachings they have or even just being honest within themselves and open or aware of their own spirituality. So there is one God but many ways and the way is available to all through themselves. Christ can help because he showed a way .. so i could be a follower of his. But this does not mean to say some other person cannot also find a way but through a different means.

Does that make sense? Is this something along the lines of your groups appraoch?

 

By the way I did read most of your Silly Putty thread! Took a few days...