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“Read It In Greek” Excuse


Castiel233
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When I was younger (and had a bit more fire on my belly) I used to debate with local Christians in a public forum. Some of it was OK; sometimes they got a bit unpleasant, but hey if I felt required to defend slavery, sexism and so forth, I might get a bit defensive as well

 

One thing has stayed with me. When faced with nasty texts, I was “advised” to read The Bible in its “original “Greek. Bearing in mind, not a single 1st edition Bible has survived, this read it in Greek, sounded like a feeble excuse to make it more palatable.

 

I remember one instance in particular. I mentioned the issue of slavery, and how The Bible explains how slaves are to be beaten.

 

Naturally I didn’t understand what the Bible was teaching, according to my opponent. If only I had read it in Greek, I would see that the earlier texts meant servant, and not slave.

 

OK then, well the Bible explains how “servants” are to be owed and beaten then.

 

Then of course the goal posts are moved. Am I reading the text in context, what is the deeper meaning of the words?

 

I think Christians do Yahweh a great injustice.  He is quite capable of having His words translated as He sees as appropriate. What with Him being the feckin creator of the universe and all.

 

The fact is they look for linguistic loopholes, because deep down they are ashamed of the texts when confronted with them, and desperately try and humanize them.

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He heee firedevil.gif

The Real Oldtimers™ of the site (I'm looking at you Fwee! wink.png ) may remember that Jewish pal we had in the forums for a while; he was quite cool until some meltdown finally happened, details of which I can't recall. I do remember though that in some "debate" about the OT in the forums, a morontheist claimed that this Jewish pal was using a "crappy translation".

 


Crappy translation.

Of the old testament.

Read by a Jew.

lmao_99.gif

 

 

After one of the other forum folks pointed the morontheist to "looked at the man's profile? See what faith he is? Guess what langugage he's reading the pentateuch in?" the discussion was, strangely, immediately over... lmao_99.gif

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When I was younger (and had a bit more fire on my belly) I used to debate with local Christians in a public forum. Some of it was OK; sometimes they got a bit unpleasant, but hey if I felt required to defend slavery, sexism and so forth, I might get a bit defensive as well

 

One thing has stayed with me. When faced with nasty texts, I was “advised” to read The Bible in its “original “Greek. Bearing in mind, not a single 1st edition Bible has survived, this read it in Greek, sounded like a feeble excuse to make it more palatable.

 

I remember one instance in particular. I mentioned the issue of slavery, and how The Bible explains how slaves are to be beaten.

 

Naturally I didn’t understand what the Bible was teaching, according to my opponent. If only I had read it in Greek, I would see that the earlier texts meant servant, and not slave.

 

OK then, well the Bible explains how “servants” are to be owed and beaten then.

 

Then of course the goal posts are moved. Am I reading the text in context, what is the deeper meaning of the words?

 

I think Christians do Yahweh a great injustice.  He is quite capable of having His words translated as He sees as appropriate. What with Him being the feckin creator of the universe and all.

 

The fact is they look for linguistic loopholes, because deep down they are ashamed of the texts when confronted with them, and desperately try and humanize them.

 

Curious? Did any person suggesting this actually read greek or did they just like saying it to other people.

 

It really doesn't matter one bit what it said in some other language. If you read the modern version, you know the version that christians actually use in their churches and lives does it matter that others read it in greek or russian or pig latin?

 

You follow or you lead yourself.

 

that the greek language exists doesn't help make christians and christiantiy right.

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When I was younger (and had a bit more fire on my belly) I used to debate with local Christians in a public forum. Some of it was OK; sometimes they got a bit unpleasant, but hey if I felt required to defend slavery, sexism and so forth, I might get a bit defensive as well

 

One thing has stayed with me. When faced with nasty texts, I was “advised” to read The Bible in its “original “Greek. Bearing in mind, not a single 1st edition Bible has survived, this read it in Greek, sounded like a feeble excuse to make it more palatable.

 

I remember one instance in particular. I mentioned the issue of slavery, and how The Bible explains how slaves are to be beaten.

 

Naturally I didn’t understand what the Bible was teaching, according to my opponent. If only I had read it in Greek, I would see that the earlier texts meant servant, and not slave.

 

OK then, well the Bible explains how “servants” are to be owed and beaten then.

 

Then of course the goal posts are moved. Am I reading the text in context, what is the deeper meaning of the words?

 

I think Christians do Yahweh a great injustice.  He is quite capable of having His words translated as He sees as appropriate. What with Him being the feckin creator of the universe and all.

 

The fact is they look for linguistic loopholes, because deep down they are ashamed of the texts when confronted with them, and desperately try and humanize them.

 

Curious? Did any person suggesting this actually read greek or did they just like saying it to other people.

 

It really doesn't matter one bit what it said in some other language. If you read the modern version, you know the version that christians actually use in their churches and lives does it matter that others read it in greek or russian or pig latin?

 

You follow or you lead yourself.

 

that the greek language exists doesn't help make christians and christiantiy right.

 

I think it is highly unlikely he could read Greek.......guess he just threw it out there to try and put me (and others) off

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He heee firedevil.gif

 

The Real Oldtimers™ of the site (I'm looking at you Fwee! wink.png ) may remember that Jewish pal we had in the forums for a while; he was quite cool until some meltdown finally happened, details of which I can't recall. I do remember though that in some "debate" about the OT in the forums, a morontheist claimed that this Jewish pal was using a "crappy translation".

 

 

Crappy translation.

 

Of the old testament.

 

Read by a Jew.

 

lmao_99.gif

 

 

After one of the other forum folks pointed the morontheist to "looked at the man's profile? See what faith he is? Guess what langugage he's reading the pentateuch in?" the discussion was, strangely, immediately over... lmao_99.gif

Here comes Fwee's steel-trap memory!!!!

 

Drum roll please!

 

........

 

Username -- 'SPACEFALCON'

 

 

methinks...

 

And I'm willing to bet his name can only be found on the old OLD site.

 

I remember him cuz he and Reach were two of the first members to welcome me here.

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I have a Ph.D. in ancient Greek and publish stuff about texts written in it. Scholars never stop arguing over how to interpret texts written in Greek (or Latin or any language - that's the thing about texts). The people who say "But in the original Greek it means X and nothing else" sometimes get it right, more often just make moves like those described so well in the OP.

 

I've noticed that a lot of the time, they don't actually know Greek themselves but crib from a commentary or website. Not naming names, but at least one Christian member of this forum did that a lot when she was on here.

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Here comes Fwee's steel-trap memory!!!!

 

Drum roll please!

 

........

 

Username -- 'SPACEFALCON'

Damn Fwee, now that you mention the handle... I think I can remember too. smile.png

 

*bows in respect of the master of memory*

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     The bible doesn't really come alive until you read it in the original Klingon.

 

          mwc

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Here comes Fwee's steel-trap memory!!!!Drum roll please!........Username -- 'SPACEFALCON'

Damn Fwee, now that you mention the handle... I think I can remember too. :)*bows in respect of the master of memory*
You were right there with me bro! You remembered quite a bit about his final days here at Ex-C.

 

That's the way I remember them playing out also.

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Sorry to have to correct my online brothers and sisters in the free-thought community, but you are simply wrong in mentioning  the Klingon Texts.

 

The very earliest texts were written in standard Starfleet, the later Klingon translations were considered heretical. I know Picardism firmly rejected anything after The Book of All Good Things

 

When we look at the underlying message, particularly in the book of Data, and to a lesser degree the book of Deanna Troi, we learn that the message to humanity was one to explore with boldness and with an enterprising spirit. In these books, no one was sent to the Brig and holo-deck was intended for all.

 

Later books talk of a breach in the warp drive, primarily the latter parts of the sayings of Roddenberry, but some scholars feel that he never actually put forth such an idea himself, later scribes added his name to such teachings to give them more authority.

 

Also I did read once that the final words in the unedited text of the final book simply said "he's dead, Jim"

 

Just saying……… 

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When I was younger (and had a bit more fire on my belly) I used to debate with local Christians in a public forum. Some of it was OK; sometimes they got a bit unpleasant, but hey if I felt required to defend slavery, sexism and so forth, I might get a bit defensive as well

 

One thing has stayed with me. When faced with nasty texts, I was “advised” to read The Bible in its “original “Greek. Bearing in mind, not a single 1st edition Bible has survived, this read it in Greek, sounded like a feeble excuse to make it more palatable.

 

I remember one instance in particular. I mentioned the issue of slavery, and how The Bible explains how slaves are to be beaten.

 

Naturally I didn’t understand what the Bible was teaching, according to my opponent. If only I had read it in Greek, I would see that the earlier texts meant servant, and not slave.

 

OK then, well the Bible explains how “servants” are to be owed and beaten then.

 

Then of course the goal posts are moved. Am I reading the text in context, what is the deeper meaning of the words?

 

I think Christians do Yahweh a great injustice.  He is quite capable of having His words translated as He sees as appropriate. What with Him being the feckin creator of the universe and all.

 

The fact is they look for linguistic loopholes, because deep down they are ashamed of the texts when confronted with them, and desperately try and humanize them.

 

Curious? Did any person suggesting this actually read greek or did they just like saying it to other people.

 

It really doesn't matter one bit what it said in some other language. If you read the modern version, you know the version that christians actually use in their churches and lives does it matter that others read it in greek or russian or pig latin?

 

You follow or you lead yourself.

 

that the greek language exists doesn't help make christians and christiantiy right.

 

I agree here with gall, the modern English translations will convey the sense of the Greek adequately. And those guys telling you to read the original wouldn't draw any more accurate meaning from the Greek, even if they could read it themselves. They almost make this a gnostic experience, suggesting you can get the truest understanding only by reading the original Greek. There is also a view that New Testament documents may have existed in Aramaic prior to existing in Greek, or at least concurrently with the Greek. Aramaic was the common spoken language among Jewish people. (Hebrew had become an ecclesiastical and scholarly language.) Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek. (He may have known Greek.) Castiel233, next time someone tells you to read the Greek, you can ask them if they've read the original Aramaic.

 

 

This notion of an Aramaic/Hebrew vorlage existing behind the Greek is a very old apologetic. Christians can't really explain why -- if Jesus and his disciples were Aramaic speakers -- their words were not preserved in that language, or why and how "oral history" was supposedly translated to Greek. And so they root around the NT searching for Aramaic/Hebrew loanwords and say, "Aha! We found the ur-text!"  

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There are two things about "reading the Greek" that make that completely unhelpful. First, as mentioned already, even the experts will disagree on how any given passage should be translated. Second, the experts disagree because any language based on 2000 year old texts will have to take into account not only the literal translation of the words, but what the actual intent was behind those words — one must understand the entire goddamned ancient culture and all of its nuances in order to properly interpret all of the idiomatic expressions and "dog whistles" in the text.

 

Telling you to "read it in Greek" is just a silencing tactic. They know that you won't go and learn Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew, as well as get an in-depth education in how these languages related to their cultures.

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Sorry to have to correct my online brothers and sisters in the free-thought community, but you are simply wrong in mentioning  the Klingon Texts.

 

The very earliest texts were written in standard Starfleet, the later Klingon translations were considered heretical. I know Picardism firmly rejected anything after The Book of All Good Things

 

When we look at the underlying message, particularly in the book of Data, and to a lesser degree the book of Deanna Troi, we learn that the message to humanity was one to explore with boldness and with an enterprising spirit. In these books, no one was sent to the Brig and holo-deck was intended for all.

 

Later books talk of a breach in the warp drive, primarily the latter parts of the sayings of Roddenberry, but some scholars feel that he never actually put forth such an idea himself, later scribes added his name to such teachings to give them more authority.

 

Also I did read once that the final words in the unedited text of the final book simply said "he's dead, Jim"

 

Just saying………

 

Wow!

 

BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! That was sweet!

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Yeah, if something that's morally reprehensible in English can be justified using Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic, then what does that say about 'moral absolutes'?

 

The argument is nothing more than a dodge. When there's something they can't defend in the Bible, they just move the goalpoasts.

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When I was younger (and had a bit more fire on my belly) I used to debate with local Christians in a public forum. Some of it was OK; sometimes they got a bit unpleasant, but hey if I felt required to defend slavery, sexism and so forth, I might get a bit defensive as well

 

One thing has stayed with me. When faced with nasty texts, I was “advised” to read The Bible in its “original “Greek. Bearing in mind, not a single 1st edition Bible has survived, this read it in Greek, sounded like a feeble excuse to make it more palatable.

 

I remember one instance in particular. I mentioned the issue of slavery, and how The Bible explains how slaves are to be beaten.

 

Naturally I didn’t understand what the Bible was teaching, according to my opponent. If only I had read it in Greek, I would see that the earlier texts meant servant, and not slave.

 

OK then, well the Bible explains how “servants” are to be owed and beaten then.

 

Then of course the goal posts are moved. Am I reading the text in context, what is the deeper meaning of the words?

 

I think Christians do Yahweh a great injustice.  He is quite capable of having His words translated as He sees as appropriate. What with Him being the feckin creator of the universe and all.

 

The fact is they look for linguistic loopholes, because deep down they are ashamed of the texts when confronted with them, and desperately try and humanize them.

 

Curious? Did any person suggesting this actually read greek or did they just like saying it to other people.

 

It really doesn't matter one bit what it said in some other language. If you read the modern version, you know the version that christians actually use in their churches and lives does it matter that others read it in greek or russian or pig latin?

 

You follow or you lead yourself.

 

that the greek language exists doesn't help make christians and christiantiy right.

 

 

If an English language bible mentions God doing something great then Praise Jesus!

If the same bible mentions God doing something evil, well then of course it's a mistranslation.

 

So many faulty mistranslated bibles out there kinda makes me sad. If someone seems to know that the English version is broken then why hasn't someone translated it correctly. I think the bible's been around long enough for a good translation to come out? :-)

 

The Best Selling Book of All Time...chronically mistranslated. tsk tsk. We've had a shitty English version since 1604 and nobody has fixed it. That's just deplorable. :-)

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You should read the Golden Plates in Reformed Egyptian then you will know the truth of the Book of Mormon.

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The irony here is that there are Jews who read the Jewish Scriptures (Christian Old Testament) in the original Hebrew, and they strongly disagree with Christian interpretations!

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It annoys me mightily when I hear preachers and so called teachers trying to make points based on "the original Greek" - usually prefaced by "I'm no scholar but..." - when it is patently obvious that they have utterly misunderstood some textbook or half-arsed commentary and are making up ideas to fit the point they've just invented.  Even my moderate competence in modern Greek is generally sufficient to allow me to see through their bulls**t, whilst everyone else - who don't know their A's from their Ω's - sit there lapping up every word as if the mere use of the word "Greek" infuses every point made with something equivalent to papal infallibility.

 

I'll stop now as I can feel my blood pressure rising...!

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It annoys me mightily when I hear preachers and so called teachers trying to make points based on "the original Greek" - usually prefaced by "I'm no scholar but..." - when it is patently obvious that they have utterly misunderstood some textbook or half-arsed commentary and are making up ideas to fit the point they've just invented.  Even my moderate competence in modern Greek is generally sufficient to allow me to see through their bulls**t, whilst everyone else - who don't know their A's from their Ω's - sit there lapping up every word as if the mere use of the word "Greek" infuses every point made with something equivalent to papal infallibility.

 

I'll stop now as I can feel my blood pressure rising...!

On occasion, though, the argument-from-greek is not a fallacy, and this is something we do need to keep in mind as well.

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It annoys me mightily when I hear preachers and so called teachers trying to make points based on "the original Greek" - usually prefaced by "I'm no scholar but..." - when it is patently obvious that they have utterly misunderstood some textbook or half-arsed commentary and are making up ideas to fit the point they've just invented.  Even my moderate competence in modern Greek is generally sufficient to allow me to see through their bulls**t, whilst everyone else - who don't know their A's from their Ω's - sit there lapping up every word as if the mere use of the word "Greek" infuses every point made with something equivalent to papal infallibility.

 

I'll stop now as I can feel my blood pressure rising...!

 

Invariably, the only reason why they are even making the pretense of going to "the original Greek" is to make some apologetic excuse for something that doesn't translate into English the way they wish it did ... "slaves, obey your masters" being one. 

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If the current translations of the bible don't convey the original writing's context...

 

And the original hebrew/greek/klingon texts are nowhere to be found...

 

That means that god is inept at preserving his text for mankind. 

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if you had understood the original greek, they will require to read in context, thereafter you must understood the historical significance, thereafter you must understand tne cultural background, thereafter you must understand the historical geographical background,,,, and after you get a PhD scholar, you need a little faith in the size of a mustard seed

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