The Christian God Doesn't Care About Christians In The Den

[Roz]

Typical christian den argument:

 

Christian:  I think there might be a correlation between original sin and epigenetics!

Christian2:  The bible says you can have peace if you focus on non-sinful things and not sinful things!

Christian3:  You can't see if there's a god or not, therefore god is real!

 

Christians 1 and 2, what is sin?  Breaking our god's law, duh!

Ok then, prove your god is real, and then we'll give a damn about your god's law

Wahhhh!  We're being persecuted!  They're asking the impossible

 

Christian 3, you made a positive claim that your god exists, prove it

That's impossible!  Even a 3rd grader knows that!

 

Even though all three of these christians know that verse in their holy book that says "if you ask anything in my name, I will do it" (Jn 14:14, NASB), they cannot produce proof of their god.

 

Even though their god's on record saying that his followers can move mountains if they just have a small amount of faith in him, they can't present proof of their own god's mere existence. 

 

Even though they continue to worship said god, their god has clearly abandoned them when they were asked to provide proof that he exists. 

 

Is their god a:

1.  douchebag?

2.  non-existent?

3.  all of the above?

[Deidre]

  Oh, but if there is proof, why would anyone need faith? If ye have faith as small as a mustard seed...........

 

Don't you know this as a former Christian?  

[seven77]

There is no point in attempting to argue, discuss or debate with any of our current godly reps. Trolls are not worth anyone's time.

 

I am tired of these apologists. They can't be bothered to use spell check. They can't be bothered to read their Bibles. They don't consult concordances. They don't know anything about science and refuse to learn even the basics. They want to engage in discussion, but they have nothing to offer. They are ignorant and usually arrogant. They duck, dodge, lie, weasel, and darken the community with their theistic blight.

 

Very few are tolerable and sadly, the current batch is like a bad case of recurrent heartburn. Just go away already. If you can't or won't watch videos or read articles or read YOUR OWN GODDAMNED HOLY BOOK, what good are you? What can you possibly have to contribute to this board? Why should we take you seriously?

 

I enjoy the humor of the ex-c community. But these believing assclowns need to get a fuckin' life and leave these boards. No one is buying what they're selling.

 

However.....

 

If there are any intelligent Christian lurkers who can write coherent English reading this, please sign up and join us.

[Deidre]

 

Oh, but if there is proof, why would anyone need faith? If ye have faith as small as a mustard seed........... Don't you know this as a former Christian?

And remember how (desperately) we interpreted so many coincidences and random, unrelated occurrences as "evidence." And how tightly we clung to those interpretations. Your statement captures the issue so well, shows the issue to be so elementary, how did we not see it as such, for so many years?

Yes very true. Most of faith is elementary as I was taught to have "faith like an innocent child." In other words, do as you're told and don't ask questions. I've always thought it especially funny that there are "scholars" of the Bible. That there are seminaries and such to "school" people into becoming experts on the Bible and Christianity. Lol How does one become a scholar of nonsense?

 

Brb, getting my Ph.D in Mother Goose tales.

 

Just cracks me up. A "Bible scholar." It's the dumbest most fucked up story ever told and you are proud to be a scholar of this?

 

Anyway, as an aside, I have been a member of a Christian forum for about six months. The difference between the guy in the Den earlier and my experience is ...I don't have an agenda. I've met some beautiful people there who are Christian and they listen to me talk about atheism. I listen to them talk about their faith. It doesn't offend me that they pray for me or tell me that "God loves me."

 

If this makes them happy, so be it. It is the jerks that come to atheist sites and have an agenda, that bug me. Going with this notion that perhaps they will get a better seat in heaven if they recruit more "souls," into the kingdom.

 

But I enjoy the Christian site. I've met some awesome atheists there too. It is very interesting to watch us all get along, share what atheism "means" to us and then move on to other topics. My hat is off to some of you who entertained that guy with the atheist joke thread.

 

I chimed in but he can think as he wishes.

 

/end of rambling

 

PS: I've discovered purgatory. Typing long posts using your iPhone. Aye!

:-/

[Roz]

I gotta say though, Bart Erhman's NT scholarship has probably broken christianity's hold in many people.  That man's painstaking work is great.

[Deidre]

 

 

 

  Oh, but if there is proof, why would anyone need faith? If ye have faith as small as a mustard seed........... Don't you know this as a former Christian?  

And remember how (desperately) we interpreted so many coincidences and random, unrelated occurrences as "evidence." And how tightly we clung to those interpretations. Your statement captures the issue so well, shows the issue to be so elementary, how did we not see it as such, for so many years?

Yes very true. Most of faith is elementary as I was taught to have "faith like an innocent child." In other words, do as you're told and don't ask questions. I've always thought it especially funny that there are "scholars" of the Bible. That there are seminaries and such to "school" people into becoming experts on the Bible and Christianity. Lol How does one become a scholar of nonsense?Brb, getting my Ph.D in Mother Goose tales.Just cracks me up. A "Bible scholar." It's the dumbest most fucked up story ever told and you are proud to be a scholar of this?Anyway, as an aside, I have been a member of a Christian forum for about six months. The difference between the guy in the Den earlier and my experience is ...I don't have an agenda. I've met some beautiful people there who are Christian and they listen to me talk about atheism. I listen to them talk about their faith. It doesn't offend me that they pray for me or tell me that "God loves me."If this makes them happy, so be it. It is the jerks that come to atheist sites and have an agenda, that bug me.This notion that perhaps they will get a better seat in heaven if they recruit more "souls," into the kingdom.But I enjoy the Christian site. I've net some awesome atheists there too. It is very interesting to watch us all get along, share what atheism "means" to us and then move on to other topics. My hat is off to some if you who obtained that guy with the atheist joke thread.I chimed in but he can think as he wishes./end of rambling

Dee, have any of the Christians on the Christian site said they've been to this or any other ex-Christian or atheist site, and if so, what sort of reception they felt they got?"Brb, getting my Ph.D in Mother Goose tales." - love this line

A few of them said that they have been to atheist sites and were treated horribly. My guess is that they were most likely preaching on the atheist sites and not having an even exchange. They are great people but we all know how "witnessing" becomes a near obsession when you're a Christian.

 

Thus atheist sites will often warn then ban if someone's sole intent for joining the site is to preach. Like the dude here in the Den. He is preaching but disguising it as dialogue which is why I didn't bother anymore. At least be up front.

 

That said, I have received private messages there from a few who wish to "help me." It is hard to explain, but I've gotten to know them so I know they mean well. I have said "I don't need help." They were quick to apologize to which I said it wasn't necessary. I share this because not all Christians have agendas on atheist sites nor do all atheists have agendas. Some do. There is an atheist douchebag over there and all the Christians love him.

 

Ugh lol A story for another time.

 

Lol mother goose. time to go "study!"

[TheRedneckProfessor]

god hates trolls.

[directionless]

I've often wondered if increasing the number of Christian members would be good, but I question that for a couple of reasons:

 

- The Christians would stop talking about Christianity over time as their arguments fell on deaf ears, so they would become ordinary members.

 

- Many Ex-Christians seem to enjoy spirited debates with Christians, but maybe these Christians could confuse or harrass members who are deconverting? Or maybe participating in the debates would help them?

 

I agree that the Christian members are scarce and not very active.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I've often wondered if increasing the number of Christian members would be good, but I question that for a couple of reasons:

 

- The Christians would stop talking about Christianity over time as their arguments fell on deaf ears, so they would become ordinary members.

 

- Many Ex-Christians seem to enjoy spirited debates with Christians, but maybe these Christians could confuse or harrass members who are deconverting? Or maybe participating in the debates would help them?

 

I agree that the Christian members are scarce and not very active.

Personally, I love it when a christian comes here and offers us a genuine challenge, but it happens very rarely.  Most who come here only stick around for a few days, maybe a month in some cases and then we never hear from them again.  There are a few "drive-by" christians; thumperina and ordinaryclay, for example.  They blow in, blow up, and blow out again every so often.  Pathetic, really, that an all-powerful, all-knowing god can't come up with better apologists.

 

I've also heard of a case or two wherein a christian did harass a newcomer and got confined to The Lion's Den.

 

In all, I really wish more high quality christians would show up.

[Guest end3]

I've wondered before what would happen if I came back as another person or even changed my status. Actually I know what would happen and it would disappoint me.

[Roz]

I've wondered before what would happen if I came back as another person or even changed my status. Actually I know what would happen and it would disappoint me.

 

It's not about your status, or another Ex'C account.  It's that you keep making absurd leaps in your attempts to bridge natural phenomena with your particular holy book.

 

I actually agree with some of the points you make in Off Topic, I lean right on some political issues and left on others.  But when you make claims like how all the canaanite boys were genetically predisposed to be evil, therefore your god was morally right to order all their executions, that's just absurd.

 

If you saw a muslim writing about how all the people in the twin towers were genetically predisposed to be evil due to their sins against allah, therefore Bin Laden's men were morally justified in killing them, you would be outraged.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I've wondered before what would happen if I came back as another person or even changed my status. Actually I know what would happen and it would disappoint me.

You'd still by my friend, because unlike some people's god, I really can accept you as you are.

[ironhorse]

One reason I believe in god is the design of the universe and life.

It is either the result of chance or a Creator. 

 

from: http://www.strangenotions.com/god-exists/

 

1.The universe displays a staggering amount of intelligibility, both within the things we observe and in the way these things relate to others outside themselves. That is to say: the way they exist and coexist display an intricately beautiful order and regularity that can fill even the most casual observer with wonder. It is the norm in nature for many different beings to work together to produce the same valuable end—for example, the organs in the body work for our life and health. (See also argument 8.)

2.Either this intelligible order is the product of chance or of intelligent design.

3.Not chance.

4.Therefore the universe is the product of intelligent design.

5.Design comes only from a mind, a designer.

6.Therefore the universe is the product of an intelligent Designer.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ironhorse, your progression is deeply flawed.  Step 2 is problematic as it is simply a false dichotomy.  Step 3 is nothing more than an assertion for which you provide no support.  These two false premises lead you to an illogical conclusion.

[ironhorse]

Ironhorse, your progression is deeply flawed.  Step 2 is problematic as it is simply a false dichotomy.  Step 3 is nothing more than an assertion for which you provide no support.  These two false premises lead you to an illogical conclusion.

 

Step 2: What are the other possibilities? 

 

Aliens created life on planet earth?

[bornagainathiest]

 

Ironhorse, your progression is deeply flawed.  Step 2 is problematic as it is simply a false dichotomy.  Step 3 is nothing more than an assertion for which you provide no support.  These two false premises lead you to an illogical conclusion.

 

Step 2: What are the other possibilities? 

 

Aliens created life on planet earth?

 

 

No.

Life evolves naturally, without the need for any intervention from any kind of agency.

[Roz]

BAA can correct me on this, but isn't empty space in fact NOT empty?

 

Within what we term as the 'vacuum of space' there are particles coming in and out of existence.  We currently don't know what that is.

 

Yet the christians (End3 cough cough) will link that to their specific christian god, forgoing any other explanation as to how that happens.  Polydeism?  dismissed.  Polytheism?  that too.  Any other monotheistic religions?  out the window.  That's currently an unknown so let's not posit that any supernatural deities made those particles appear and disappear?  out.

 

End3, IH, and all the other apologists who come here make the same gigantic leap of faith, they just use different examples but the underlying tie-ins are similar.  Genetics?  Must be tied to prayer/sin/god.  How the universe began?  Must be our god.  etc. etc.

[Orbit]

BAA can correct me on this, but isn't empty space in fact NOT empty?

 

Within what we term as the 'vacuum of space' there are particles coming in and out of existence.  We currently don't know what that is.

 

Yet the christians (End3 cough cough) will link that to their specific christian god, forgoing any other explanation as to how that happens.  Polydeism?  dismissed.  Polytheism?  that too.  Any other monotheistic religions?  out the window.  That's currently an unknown so let's not posit that any supernatural deities made those particles appear and disappear?  out.

 

End3, IH, and all the other apologists who come here make the same gigantic leap of faith, they just use different examples but the underlying tie-ins are similar.  Genetics?  Must be tied to prayer/sin/god.  How the universe began?  Must be our god.  etc. etc.

The Higgs field is in empty space, so it can't be entirely empty.

[Roz]

 

BAA can correct me on this, but isn't empty space in fact NOT empty?

 

Within what we term as the 'vacuum of space' there are particles coming in and out of existence.  We currently don't know what that is.

 

Yet the christians (End3 cough cough) will link that to their specific christian god, forgoing any other explanation as to how that happens.  Polydeism?  dismissed.  Polytheism?  that too.  Any other monotheistic religions?  out the window.  That's currently an unknown so let's not posit that any supernatural deities made those particles appear and disappear?  out.

 

End3, IH, and all the other apologists who come here make the same gigantic leap of faith, they just use different examples but the underlying tie-ins are similar.  Genetics?  Must be tied to prayer/sin/god.  How the universe began?  Must be our god.  etc. etc.

The Higgs field is in empty space, so it can't be entirely empty.

 

 

Right, so with that, we really don't have any example of "nothing" where it is completely empty at this point.

The position of "something can't come from nothing" (the christian position) cannot be verified because we don't have any example of "nothing."

 

If anything's wrong with my statements, feel free to point and I'll retract.  

[directionless]

One reason I believe in god is the design of the universe and life.

It is either the result of chance or a Creator. 

 

from: http://www.strangenotions.com/god-exists/

 

1.The universe displays a staggering amount of intelligibility, both within the things we observe and in the way these things relate to others outside themselves. That is to say: the way they exist and coexist display an intricately beautiful order and regularity that can fill even the most casual observer with wonder. It is the norm in nature for many different beings to work together to produce the same valuable end—for example, the organs in the body work for our life and health. (See also argument 8.)

2.Either this intelligible order is the product of chance or of intelligent design.

3.Not chance.

4.Therefore the universe is the product of intelligent design.

5.Design comes only from a mind, a designer.

6.Therefore the universe is the product of an intelligent Designer.

What are some other reasons you believe in Christianity? (if you feel like explaining) This only explains why you aren't an atheist, but why do you think Christianity specifically is true?

[waitingongod]

I'd also like to know this.  Let's assume for a second that a god or gods exist, but is totally unable to communicate that clearly, yet they could create the universe.  What makes you think your particular book is the best description of that god?  Ideally, compare and contrast with all other possible descriptions just so we know some significant research has been done.

 

Granted, based on the logic of god existing, it could in fact have been aliens that created earth.

 

If the first "thing" doesn't require a creator, then that first "thing" can be anything you want, no justification required.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Ironhorse, your progression is deeply flawed.  Step 2 is problematic as it is simply a false dichotomy.  Step 3 is nothing more than an assertion for which you provide no support.  These two false premises lead you to an illogical conclusion.

 

Step 2: What are the other possibilities? 

 

Aliens created life on planet earth?

 

What if there is no life on earth?  What if there is no earth?  What if "you" are actually a collection of random ganglions in a specimen jar and what you perceive is the result of nothing more than stimulation with electrodes?  This is simply one possibility off the top of my head.

[ironhorse]

 

 

Ironhorse, your progression is deeply flawed.  Step 2 is problematic as it is simply a false dichotomy.  Step 3 is nothing more than an assertion for which you provide no support.  These two false premises lead you to an illogical conclusion.

 

Step 2: What are the other possibilities? 

 

Aliens created life on planet earth?

 

What if there is no life on earth?  What if there is no earth?  What if "you" are actually a collection of random ganglions in a specimen jar and what you perceive is the result of nothing more than stimulation with electrodes?  This is simply one possibility off the top of my head.

 

 

 

There's not many are they?

[Roz]

 

 

 

Ironhorse, your progression is deeply flawed.  Step 2 is problematic as it is simply a false dichotomy.  Step 3 is nothing more than an assertion for which you provide no support.  These two false premises lead you to an illogical conclusion.

 

Step 2: What are the other possibilities? 

 

Aliens created life on planet earth?

 

What if there is no life on earth?  What if there is no earth?  What if "you" are actually a collection of random ganglions in a specimen jar and what you perceive is the result of nothing more than stimulation with electrodes?  This is simply one possibility off the top of my head.

 

 

 

There's not many are they?

 

 

0 beings created the universe

1 being created the universe

2 beings created the universe

3 beings created the universe

...

1000 beings created the universe

1001 beings created the universe

...

1,000,000,000,000 beings created the universe

...

so on and so forth.

 

Not that many, really?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

Ironhorse, your progression is deeply flawed.  Step 2 is problematic as it is simply a false dichotomy.  Step 3 is nothing more than an assertion for which you provide no support.  These two false premises lead you to an illogical conclusion.

 

Step 2: What are the other possibilities? 

 

Aliens created life on planet earth?

 

What if there is no life on earth?  What if there is no earth?  What if "you" are actually a collection of random ganglions in a specimen jar and what you perceive is the result of nothing more than stimulation with electrodes?  This is simply one possibility off the top of my head.

 

 

 

There's not many are they?

 

There don't have to be many.  It only takes one other possibility to demonstrate a false dichotomy.  I provided you with another possibility, and Roz has demonstrated that there are literally infinite possibilities.