Why Did You Get Married?

[VacuumFlux]

 

I agree to an extent. If I lived with a woman, as roommates...what kind of agreement would we have? I think that two people can live together as a couple, and still maintain separateness in finances. I don't really care all that much about sharing bank accounts, and such. That aspect of marriage doesn't bother me. What becomes cumbersome is in the likely event (see what I did there? lol) that the relationship breaks up, then you have to hire lawyers, and spend time, energy, and money sorting all of your finances and assets out. It's not worth the headache. I suppose that is what pre-nups are about, but I still think things can get sticky in the end.

 

 

A close family friend when I was growing up was all into the Jewish roots of christianity, and one thing I learned is that they treat(ed?) marriage VERY differently. It's not about love; it's about covenant. As in a contract, a legal document. Which, for one, kinda changes the "church as the bride of christ" symbolism, but also seems to be a much more sane way to think about marriage. I got the impression that Jews don't go into a wedding making formulatic promises that they don't mean while thinking about love, but rather that they sit down with a lawyer-like rabbi and work out the legal details of what their partnership is going to mean. I think a lot of middle class white americans would find that unromantic, and perhaps even think that pre-nups are "bad luck" or something. But if you approach marriage as something similar to incorporating a business with careful delineations of obligations and management of shared resources, that's going to cover a lot of what pre-marital counseling is for. And if everything's laid out that clearly, divorces will be cleaner too, because you can point to exactly which clause of the contract has been broken, and have a list of how much wealth each person brought into the partnership. I find it rather horrifying to realize that some people get married and get a joint bank account without first sitting down and going over each others' accounts and budgets. I probably put more effort into the financial end of my and my friend's itty bitty LLC (nowhere near a living wage for either of us, just being able to legally make money off of hobbies) than some people do for a marriage they expect to keep for life.

[Leo]

Good points.

Deidre, roomates is one thing. Two people putting the name on the mortgage of a house would be something else. Just don't buy immovable property without some kind of contract, be it marriage, or the incorporation that some polyamorous folks, is all I'm suggesting. It doesn't have to do with you being owned: just those annoying legal problems of who does what, when having to manage a property when both parties are emotional and not feeling like dealing with it while breaking up.

Here I think the polyamorous, once their life system is less taboo, will prove very instructive to the rest of us. Outside of kids, it's the immovable property that you own with other people that becomes an issue.

Interesting about the Jewish idea of marriage. And of course pre-Romantic Renaissance, Christianity did marriage a lot more pragmatically. And then the soulmate idea that came along in the 1960s, a totally secular idea that there was one person for everyone, has been co-opted by the Christians as though it was theirs from the beginning. hence the totally barbarian practice supported these days by evangelicals for young people not to date until they have found the right one. They'll be wearing burqas and blowing up buildings next, I'll wager.

[Deidre]

 

I agree to an extent. If I lived with a woman, as roommates...what kind of agreement would we have? I think that two people can live together as a couple, and still maintain separateness in finances. I don't really care all that much about sharing bank accounts, and such. That aspect of marriage doesn't bother me. What becomes cumbersome is in the likely event (see what I did there? lol) that the relationship breaks up, then you have to hire lawyers, and spend time, energy, and money sorting all of your finances and assets out. It's not worth the headache. I suppose that is what pre-nups are about, but I still think things can get sticky in the end.

 

A close family friend when I was growing up was all into the Jewish roots of christianity, and one thing I learned is that they treat(ed?) marriage VERY differently. It's not about love; it's about covenant. As in a contract, a legal document. Which, for one, kinda changes the "church as the bride of christ" symbolism, but also seems to be a much more sane way to think about marriage. I got the impression that Jews don't go into a wedding making formulatic promises that they don't mean while thinking about love, but rather that they sit down with a lawyer-like rabbi and work out the legal details of what their partnership is going to mean. I think a lot of middle class white americans would find that unromantic, and perhaps even think that pre-nups are "bad luck" or something. But if you approach marriage as something similar to incorporating a business with careful delineations of obligations and management of shared resources, that's going to cover a lot of what pre-marital counseling is for. And if everything's laid out that clearly, divorces will be cleaner too, because you can point to exactly which clause of the contract has been broken, and have a list of how much wealth each person brought into the partnership. I find it rather horrifying to realize that some people get married and get a joint bank account without first sitting down and going over each others' accounts and budgets. I probably put more effort into the financial end of my and my friend's itty bitty LLC (nowhere near a living wage for either of us, just being able to legally make money off of hobbies) than some people do for a marriage they expect to keep for life.

 

Excellent advice to anyone considering a live in relationship or marriage. It does probably seem like a business arrangement of sorts. I'd like to think that most people start out in love, or some variation thereof, and the details of life bury them. They forget why they got married, or what brought them together in the first place. Some people lose their identities, and over the years realize that marriage wasn't what they thought it'd be.

 

The jewish covenant idea, I don't know. Have we romanticized the idea of marriage too much in the west, do you all think?

 

There is something good and right and pure about wanting to be there for another person, when you get nothing in return. I think of couples who one person has a terrible accident and is paralyzed, or one of the partners becomes ill with cancer. To honor the commitment you made to this person you love, is a beautiful thing. If I'm honest, I fear all of that. I fear getting too close and losing it all. Fear losing myself, or someone hurting me, and losing time invested.

 

I don't think marriage is necessary per se, but tonight, I went out to dinner with some friends, one who is going through a divorce. She told me that she would have still married her husband all over again, despite the hardships she's going through now. The look on my face, lol. She said...''Dee, love is not perfect. It sometimes hurts us. But, that's ok because love is what life is about.''

 

Hmmm.

[VacuumFlux]

The jewish covenant idea, I don't know. Have we romanticized the idea of marriage too much in the west, do you all think?

 

Oh definitely. I think it was a good thing to push back against forced arranged marriages, to make sure that both of the people who'd actually be the ones living together wanted to be together. I think it's great that marriage is more about love than honor, so no woman (or girl) gets forced to marry her rapist in order to not shame her family. I think it's great that women are not sold off like cattle for political gain. Treating marriage as a business arrangement in which the woman (or man, I'm sure that happened with a some political alliance marriages arranged by two sets of parents with no input from the kids) is one of the goods to be exchanged is bad. But I still think that men and women today should have a businesslike approach to forming a legal partnership; the difference is that the couple themselves are equal partners, instead of parents doing the bargaining for/about them.

 

Being in love, being infatuated, is fun. But it's not a very clear headed, rational way to think about another person. I think people should have fun when they're infatuated, but wait a while to see how they feel about the other person when that wears off. If you can go through some rough patches and fights, but maintain a positive relationship with the other person, and both sides feel that their disagreements were handled maturely and with respect, then it's a good time to think about making a long term decision to entwine your life with theirs.

[TrueFreedom]

I agree that it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  I've always considered the willingness to be vulnerable an important part of growing up and one of the highest virtues.  It's cliche, but you can't know pleasure if you don't know suffering.

[Deidre]

VF and True, thanks for your thoughts. VF, you have raised some really insightful points here about the view of marriage in general. Definitely a different perspective. Marriage may not end up so confining if the couple enters into it with a plan in mind instead of just an idealized notion that it will end up or should end up like a fairy tale.

 

Interesting view points. :-)

[Deidre]

Well, as in love as I thought I was with my bf, we decided to part ways, and remain friends. Not an easy decision, but it shows me that if one person wants marriage, even just in theory, and other partner doesn't...it most likely won't work out. Just different schools of thought.

 

Moving on........

[Orbit]

BO, be careful. People might just think you have a softer side. That was really nice what you posted there. I guess you're right. But, at the end of the day, maybe it boils down to being the marrying kind, or not being the marrying kind.

Here's something...

 

So, I'm talking with a friend of mine about marriage and such and her dad's friend who's in his mid 50's...recently got married, for the very first time. She said he didn't have a wedding or anything, just a small ceremony. But, he 'finally' met someone worth marrying, was how she put it.

 

''Worth marrying.'' lol

 

Like sitting on a bench at school dance waiting for that perfect guy to pick you. Ohhhh...I'm worthy!

 

 

 

We can change over time. I used to be "the marrying kind" and now that I'm older I don't care about marriage. I had a boss once who, at age 50, had a ceremony in front of all her friends and married herself. She said no one would take better care of her than her. Ring and all...

[Deidre]

sorry if I missed it, but did you ever find out why this is so important to him? being an atheist and all?

  

 

When we first started dating, we were on the same page. As time went on and we fell in love, he started bringing it up. I think religion has nothing to with it for some. It is often a societal norm that ppl feel is the "logical" next step. He wasn't proposing lol or anything but he wanted to make it known how he felt about me and marriage. I admire that he was brave to share it and stand by his values. Unfortunately, I'm not the marrying kind. I don't need a guy to be around me 24/7.

 

I cared for him so much though, it sucks.

 

BO, be careful. People might just think you have a softer side. That was really nice what you posted there. I guess you're right. But, at the end of the day, maybe it boils down to being the marrying kind, or not being the marrying kind.

Here's something...

So, I'm talking with a friend of mine about marriage and such and her dad's friend who's in his mid 50's...recently got married, for the very first time. She said he didn't have a wedding or anything, just a small ceremony. But, he 'finally' met someone worth marrying, was how she put it.

''Worth marrying.'' lol

 

Like sitting on a bench at school dance waiting for that perfect guy to pick you. Ohhhh...I'm worthy!

 

 

We can change over time. I used to be "the marrying kind" and now that I'm older I don't care about marriage. I had a boss once who, at age 50, had a ceremony in front of all her friends and married herself. She said no one would take better care of her than her. Ring and all...

I plan to remain the "unmarrying kind."

I don't know about marrying myself, that's funny!

[dutchie]

It has been very interesting to follow this topic. When I grew up as a christian, I always expected to meet the guy somewhere in my twenty's, get into a relationship, and if it were meant to be, get married after 1-2 years. 

 

Now since im a deconvert, I realize I actually have to rethink all of this. I do have to make a decision now as a ex-christian (atheist), since i don't have to (!) marry a guy, if I want to have a long term relationship with him.

 

Some thoughts. I discovered that there are no financial benefits in the Netherlands, to getting married. There is the stuff where others already talked about,the legal stuff surrounding the hospital, children... I should look in to such thing, because i don't know  how the system here is constructed in that area. 

 

For myself. I really dont know! At 23, and single, I still have lots of time, and so free as a bird. Its actually quite terrifying.  I grew up in a stable family where my parents have been happily married. I can see the upside that a marriage brings. It brings a sense of security, a sense of long term planning. The prospect of a stable home. But on the other hand, a lot of things just stay the same. There is no excitement. They take each other for granted. 

 

Also, on the other side, I see: Being tight down. The whole idea of spending a life together with one person i cannot really grasp. But maybe I do when i meet that person, and we just know. Who knows? 

 

I have to figure out a lot of things.

Does it for me matter what other people think, and how much? (christian family opinion regarding marriage) 

Does it matter to me of money is shared, if goods are shared?

Or maybe those things don't matter in the end? 

 

Deidre, I want to ask you this: 

 

Do you think that breaking op with a partner (living together with) vs a husband, will be significantly different? What is that difference? 

 

The best thing is, that now as a ex-C I do have a choice. I can talk about it my future bf. We can weigh the ups, downs. There is no rush. 

[Deidre]

It has been very interesting to follow this topic. When I grew up as a christian, I always expected to meet the guy somewhere in my twenty's, get into a relationship, and if it were meant to be, get married after 1-2 years. 

 

Now since im a deconvert, I realize I actually have to rethink all of this. I do have to make a decision now as a ex-christian (atheist), since i don't have to (!) marry a guy, if I want to have a long term relationship with him.

 

Some thoughts. I discovered that there are no financial benefits in the Netherlands, to getting married. There is the stuff where others already talked about,the legal stuff surrounding the hospital, children... I should look in to such thing, because i don't know  how the system here is constructed in that area. 

 

For myself. I really dont know! At 23, and single, I still have lots of time, and so free as a bird. Its actually quite terrifying.  I grew up in a stable family where my parents have been happily married. I can see the upside that a marriage brings. It brings a sense of security, a sense of long term planning. The prospect of a stable home. But on the other hand, a lot of things just stay the same. There is no excitement. They take each other for granted. 

 

Also, on the other side, I see: Being tight down. The whole idea of spending a life together with one person i cannot really grasp. But maybe I do when i meet that person, and we just know. Who knows? 

 

I have to figure out a lot of things.

Does it for me matter what other people think, and how much? (christian family opinion regarding marriage) 

Does it matter to me of money is shared, if goods are shared?

Or maybe those things don't matter in the end? 

 

Deidre, I want to ask you this: 

 

Do you think that breaking op with a partner (living together with) vs a husband, will be significantly different? What is that difference? 

 

The best thing is, that now as a ex-C I do have a choice. I can talk about it my future bf. We can weigh the ups, downs. There is no rush.

Hi dutchie! Thanks for sharing all this. I agree with you on most parts.

 

If I'm honest, I'm afraid of commitment in general. It stems from a) not seeing a positive role model of marriage growing up in my home as a kid and B ) my family of origin loved me with conditions. Those two components have caused me to be afraid of commitment, and to view marriage through a lens of negativity. I have seen marriages that seem to work very well, and I can't imagine the two people in such marriages, breaking up. It's like they were destined to be together, or something. I think my view of marriage separate and away from my upbringing, is that I don't believe it's a worthwhile venture anymore. The idea of living together with a guy to answer your question, I have done that before, with one guy, for about three years. It was good at first, but eventually it became a gradual taking one another for granted. He assumed too much, that he had the right to tell me who I could hang out with, and what to wear. Not saying all people would be this way in a live in situation, but that is my reference point for now. He opened my mail, and he said I could feel free to open his. I don't want to lose my identity and space, simply because I agree to live with a guy. I know friends of mine who live with guys or who are married, and they seem to have expectations that didn't exist when they were dating.

 

When you're dating, both people are attentive, and there usually is no taking one another for granted. Once you begin living together, or you get married, it seems that the dynamic changes. I like my alone time. I love spending time with someone I care for, talking for hours, having great chemistry, and spending the night at one another's place. But, every day, day in day out? Ugh. It seems to be more headache than it's worth.

 

I have a neighbor who if his wife catches him chatting with any female neighbors, there is hell to pay. I heard this through the vine in the neighborhood, from someone who is close to both the wife and him. She said that they weren't this way when they were dating. His wife became this controlling person almost as soon as they married.

 

Now, one could say, that's her problem to fix, and marriage wasn't the culprit, but marriage for many ...even living together...causes people to think they own the other person, or have rights to their whereabouts, and such.

 

Maybe I will change my mind, but for now...it's what it is. Thanks for your thoughts to it, it's been interesting to see everyone's views, here.

[Deidre]

I broke up with my bf over this past weekend. And over the past few days, I've been reflecting on what went wrong. But, nothing went wrong. We had a really great thing. But, because he brought up marriage, I didn't think we should pursue the relationship any further. Pride can be a bad thing. I think my holding fast to all of my 'relationship rules,' is a pride thing. And I let go of a really good man.

[TrueFreedom]

Awww.  I'm sorry, Dee.  I thought that he broke up with you.  I'm sorry that you are dealing with regrets.  Have you thought about giving it another go with him?

[Deidre]

Awww.  I'm sorry, Dee.  I thought that he broke up with you.  I'm sorry that you are dealing with regrets.  Have you thought about giving it another go with him?

It was mutual. He doesn't want to be with someone who doesn't want marriage. If that's what he wants. We were taking time apart to think things over. And then we both just said it isn't going to work if we can't compromise. What's the compromise? I get married? lol

 

Anyway, I have thought about it, yes, True. But...that would require me to put my pride down. Pride can be a bad thing. :/

 

Thanks for your thoughts about it. **hug

[TrueFreedom]

((Dee)), Is your pride really more valuable to you than the one you love?  Can you not honestly not tell him that you might consider marriage one day, though you can't imagine it at the moment?

[Deidre]

((Dee)), Is your pride really more valuable to you than the one you love?  Can you not honestly not tell him that you might consider marriage one day, though you can't imagine it at the moment?

I could. The challenge is, when we fought that one night and he upped and left, it frightened me to be that vulnerable to someone else. But, I guess that's the way relationships go, don't they? At some point, you have to set aside your pride, and let yourself just experience the moments as they come, and be vulnerable. That's hard for me, True. But, I could do what you suggest. *could* lol

[TrueFreedom]

Well I don't want to "should" you to death, but I think that you would more likely regret not following your heart than following it in vulnerability.

[Deidre]

Well I don't want to "should" you to death, but I think that you would more likely regret not following your heart than following it in vulnerability.

who do you think you are? A wizard?

 

You are a kind man to say this, thank you. Really. ((hugs)) I will give it some serious thought.

[TrueFreedom]

 

Well I don't want to "should" you to death, but I think that you would more likely regret not following your heart than following it in vulnerability.

who do you think you are? A wizard?

 

You are a kind man to say this, thank you. Really. ((hugs)) I will give it some serious thought.

 

How did you know?  Why, yes, I AM a wizard!  

 

We all deserve to be happy.  

[Deidre]

 

 

Well I don't want to "should" you to death, but I think that you would more likely regret not following your heart than following it in vulnerability.

who do you think you are? A wizard?

 

You are a kind man to say this, thank you. Really. ((hugs)) I will give it some serious thought.

 

How did you know?  Why, yes, I AM a wizard!  

 

We all deserve to be happy.  

 

 

thank you

[violetbutterfly]

Well, let me put it this way...I've mentioned before the "love of my life"...the guy who made me believe soul mates are a real thing, the one with whom I could never quite get the timing right.

We still haven't figured it out, and it's been 18 years. Life got messy for both of us. He's still going through a divorce (I know, just what you want to hear) and guilt and messiness over "leaving" his son. So while that's all happening, we're separated, once again.

I wasn't sure how long it was going to take for him to come back to me. At one point, I decided that I'd always love him and would be there whenever he came back, but in the meantime I was going to go out, date, and see what happened instead of being alone, celibate and waiting on him for who knows how long.

And what happened was that I hated dating. All it did was reinforce that I'd rather be with him, even if it was messy, even if I had to wait, even if I had to make sacrifices. I could start over with someone new, but that wasn't what I wanted.

You may find that you'd rather be with him, than with someone else who shares your feelings on marriage. He may find he'd rather be with you and remain unmarried, than with someone else who wants to get married. Because that one shared value might mean nothing if it's shared with the wrong person. Or, in time, you may both find that you made the right decision. I think if you give it a little time, the answer will be clearer to you both.

On the one hand, there's sort of an irony about that the fact that he feels you are so important to him he would like to make a commitment to be your partner for life and that's what is breaking you up. But I also think if he is the right person, you'll feel it in your gut. FWIW, I am pretty positive if I had married "the love of my life" instead of my exH, we would have had a MUCH greater chance of having a successful marriage. Because with him, I would have stuck it out when things got rough. With exH, we never had anything in the first place to save. It just never should have been. WHO you marry matters.

Don't let fear cause regrets....but also don't ignore your gut. Always go with your gut. *hugs*
 

[gall]

Well, let me put it this way...I've mentioned before the "love of my life"...the guy who made me believe soul mates are a real thing, the one with whom I could never quite get the timing right.

We still haven't figured it out, and it's been 18 years. Life got messy for both of us. He's still going through a divorce (I know, just what you want to hear) and guilt and messiness over "leaving" his son. So while that's all happening, we're separated, once again.

 

I wasn't sure how long it was going to take for him to come back to me. At one point, I decided that I'd always love him and would be there whenever he came back, but in the meantime I was going to go out, date, and see what happened instead of being alone, celibate and waiting on him for who knows how long.

 

And what happened was that I hated dating. All it did was reinforce that I'd rather be with him, even if it was messy, even if I had to wait, even if I had to make sacrifices. I could start over with someone new, but that wasn't what I wanted.

 

You may find that you'd rather be with him, than with someone else who shares your feelings on marriage. He may find he'd rather be with you and remain unmarried, than with someone else who wants to get married. Because that one shared value might mean nothing if it's shared with the wrong person. Or, in time, you may both find that you made the right decision. I think if you give it a little time, the answer will be clearer to you both.

 

On the one hand, there's sort of an irony about that the fact that he feels you are so important to him he would like to make a commitment to be your partner for life and that's what is breaking you up. But I also think if he is the right person, you'll feel it in your gut. FWIW, I am pretty positive if I had married "the love of my life" instead of my exH, we would have had a MUCH greater chance of having a successful marriage. Because with him, I would have stuck it out when things got rough. With exH, we never had anything in the first place to save. It just never should have been. WHO you marry matters.

 

Don't let fear cause regrets....but also don't ignore your gut. Always go with your gut. *hugs*

 

 

Always consider you gut. Always going with your gut especially in times that you know its emotion leading you and not logic when a logical answer is needed is failure.

 

You need to do both. Be emotional and live with that. Don't forget to temper that with logic. Just don't get bogged down in logic to the point of fear and failure or rather crippling yourself not to act.

 

Experience is more imporant than failure and success. You would never have come to any realization about yourself if you had not made the decisions you had. I bet you know yourself better now than you would have if you had been that other person.

 

Looking back is great if you are learning and gain value from it other than nostalgic longning. All that does is nothing really.

 

Of course the Who matters. I would challenge anyone to prove that something else matters more in modern marriage. I have watched many people try things for reasons other than who... it was 100% failure thus far in my observations of my friends and relatives.

 

Don't regret making mistakes. If anything regret not doing anything worth making mistakes over.

[violetbutterfly]

 

Of course the Who matters. I would challenge anyone to prove that something else matters more in modern marriage. I have watched many people try things for reasons other than who... it was 100% failure thus far in my observations of my friends and relatives.

 

 

 

I went through a phase after my divorce where I was searching Christianity for answers, looking for God's approval of my divorce. Of course I didn't find it. And it was the catalyst for my deconversion.

 

You wouldn't believe how much belief there is, currently, about how it does not matter who you marry. That if you are having marital problems you just aren't praying hard enough. That you aren't allowed to just "give up" and "move on" because IT'S AGAINST GOD'S WILL.

 

I know we here are all past that now, but some still believe it. It's just another way for Christianty to tell you that your happiness means nothing and we're all worthless sinners.

 

But back on topic, that's what I was trying to say. I think Dee will know in her heart if he is the right person. Sometimes it takes a separation to realize your true feelings.

[Leo]

Deidre, I know you didn't allude to this but when you mentioned his walking out having scared you, it reminded me of earlier in my own marriage. I had always taken going for a walk as a way to cool your jets. So when we had a fight which I can't even remember now, I walked out. I said I was leaving for a little while to just go for a walk. She was afraid that meant I was leaving her. To me, all it meant was, I was going out in the fresh air to walk fast and cool my head. I'm not saying your boyfriend is the same. I'm not even saying you would throw objects. My wife has never done such either. But a man's available responses are usually, not always but usually, more limited than a woman's. A woman raising her voice is one thing. A man raising his voice to shrill fever pitch is very often interpreted by many to be uncontrolled anger. Of course women can leave and go for walks too, but leaving to simmer down, go for a walk, cool one's jets, is quite literally one of a very few options your normal man has. I'm not talking the guys that hit. just us average kind. Even now, where "it's all right for a man to cry," this doesn't typically mean that a man can burst into tears when he is just upset or has had a hard day, or feels overwhelmed emotionally. I'm not saying this doesn't happen, I am admittedly speaking in generalities here. Yes, there are always notable exceptions. But while it's now en vogue for the male to be sensitive and feel things about her emotions, it's still not widely accepted or understood that a man will have a similar, if different, set of emotional ups and downs. The walking out is one way for a man to let it off. Walk out the door, turn the corner, pick up speed and go. I'm not talking a shrill "I'm leaving!" as he slams the door and rattles the windows. I'm talking simply walking out.

Obviously this is an emotional issue. I have no idea why he wants to get married. More and more men don't anymore, for financial and other reasons. But he needed that walk, in order to cool his jets and realize you're not rejecting him, you just don't want to get married. I've seen this when the shoe is on the other foot. The woman feels like the man who wants to remain unmarried in the relationship typically feels like he is rejecting her. We male creatures are subject to all the same emotions women are, and I'm guessing that is what happened. He couldn't just do as I've seen women do, burst into tears and say "what's wrong with me? Why don't you want to marry me?" Not because he's some kind of machismo, but we just haven't been conditioned that way yet. The acceptable times for a male to cry are when others are injured, or some men during certain dramatic presentations in a movie or show, or after the death of someone. I'm not saying it should be this way. I can't even tell you WHY it seems to be this way. This is just me observing things outside the bounds of Christianity and Feminism alike. Also, some men, and some women, don't have that immediate emotional release valve. my own daughter told me once, "I can't just cry it out, dad, like you see other women do. You don't understand!" I told her I did understand. I feel things very deeply also. Reflect on them, write about them, find playing music to be cathartic, but for some reason, perhaps biological and perhaps not, I can't do that either. It's not a machismo thing of our fathers' era.

Anyway, had the shoe been on the other foot, some women would have burst into tears. I'm not saying you would or wouldn't, but some would, and we all (at least most of us) understand when it happens. And he may not have even been aware at the time that he felt like he was being rejected. If in fact he did feel like that, which is certainly more than possible. Note I said *felt like*. That is the person who is experiencing the feeling. That doesn't mean you are making that happen. Ironically, I have had these types of conversations but with the shoe on the other foot, where it was the woman wanting to marry.

So you have a male, conditioned to "not be like those other" males who are so uncontrolled and aggressive, and as the woman you may not see that much emotional reaction from the male in question. He may or may not have a relatively even-keel personality. I know I do, and this in and of itself can cause challenges when things do become emotional for the male. After all, (and I'm just assuming here, putting myself in his situation), you aren't seeing him react outwardly very often, certainly not disruptively in an emotional situation. If your dynamic is not used to that, then when he does have a big emotional response (not out of control, just on par with what many women might express), it feels to you like a much bigger deal than if a woman were to react this way. So if he feels rejected, even though you didn't reject him at all, and he uses one of very few acceptable outlets for a male by going for a walk, that's going to feel really really big to you. I see both sides on this one, because for most of my life I am pretty even-keeled. I've got my emotions, but I am not always outward with them. But if and when I do so, I can quite easily make her upset, only because she's like anyone else: the rare and unusual negative response tends to upset us. If the shoe were on the other foot, and women didn't typically emote, and we didn't have societal / etiquette measures in place to support it, we males would feel just the same in the rare event that this happened.

I'm not saying this applies in your situation. Nor am I excusing outward aggressive male behavior. But hopefully this does a bit of explaining of how this works for many of us males. I know I've spoken in general terms, and realize there are exceptions. But since I have parted ways with both dominant dogmatic persuasions, Christianity and populist feminism, I have had the opportunity of observing things from a more detached perspective. I'm not claiming I know how it should be, just looking at things as they typically are.

It certainly seems that if I'm right about this, and he's feeling rejected, once he's had time to cool off and figure out that you're just rejecting the idea but not rejecting the relationship, he's probably likely to settle down and be okay. Put it this way: He's not going to find himself surrounded by all his male friends telling him what a selfish pig you are for not marrying him, and telling him that you are probably cheating on him, that's why you won't marry. This is what I mean by cultural support. he'll get past the feeling of rejection, I'll bet, and think about what you said, as you said it. There's no cultural support outside of the Church that automatically places you in the wrong in this situation. It might take time, I don't know. I don't know how introspective he is, or how long it will take for him to figure out what it is that's actually bothering him. That's the trouble with emotions: they don't tell us what the trouble is, they just tell us that there's trouble and here is how it feels.

Anyway, just my random thoughts on this situation, and hope I don't come off as aggrandizing. I've just been closet-observing this stuff for the past ten years or so, as I've mentally come away from popular feminist dogma about relationships, and more recently gotten rid of the other dogma, Christianity.  Doesn't necessarily make me right: just makes me a bit observant.

[Deidre]

Well, let me put it this way...I've mentioned before the "love of my life"...the guy who made me believe soul mates are a real thing, the one with whom I could never quite get the timing right.

We still haven't figured it out, and it's been 18 years. Life got messy for both of us. He's still going through a divorce (I know, just what you want to hear) and guilt and messiness over "leaving" his son. So while that's all happening, we're separated, once again.

I'm sorry. You take 'patience is a virtue' to new heights. I'm really intrigued by how you both have stayed together this long.

 

I wasn't sure how long it was going to take for him to come back to me. At one point, I decided that I'd always love him and would be there whenever he came back, but in the meantime I was going to go out, date, and see what happened instead of being alone, celibate and waiting on him for who knows how long.

 

And what happened was that I hated dating. All it did was reinforce that I'd rather be with him, even if it was messy, even if I had to wait, even if I had to make sacrifices. I could start over with someone new, but that wasn't what I wanted.

This. ''Even if it was messy.'' I think that is incrediby profound to me, right now. I understand.

 

You may find that you'd rather be with him, than with someone else who shares your feelings on marriage. He may find he'd rather be with you and remain unmarried, than with someone else who wants to get married. Because that one shared value might mean nothing if it's shared with the wrong person. Or, in time, you may both find that you made the right decision. I think if you give it a little time, the answer will be clearer to you both.

This makes sense, okay. You're right. I need time to reflect, and so does he.

 

On the one hand, there's sort of an irony about that the fact that he feels you are so important to him he would like to make a commitment to be your partner for life and that's what is breaking you up. But I also think if he is the right person, you'll feel it in your gut. FWIW, I am pretty positive if I had married "the love of my life" instead of my exH, we would have had a MUCH greater chance of having a successful marriage. Because with him, I would have stuck it out when things got rough. With exH, we never had anything in the first place to save. It just never should have been. WHO you marry matters.

Let me say, he never proposed or made the marriage aspect of things, personal per se. In the beginning, he and I were on the same page. He thought about marriage the same as me. We got more serious. Then, he said that his mind became open to the idea, where it had been closed before. When he saw that my mind wasn't opening up to the idea as his was, that's when things got more heated.I said some things too that were, cold. Idk. :/

 

The thing is. He's an outstanding human being. I have major trust issues with men, won't get into why. But, I do. And he just evaporated them all, you know? I wish that you could somehow resolve your situation...you sound like a very loving person, and you deserve happiness too. They say love is a verb, not just a feeling. You definitely have proven that point. **hugs Thank you for sharing all you have, it has helped me a lot.

 

 

 

 

Well, let me put it this way...I've mentioned before the "love of my life"...the guy who made me believe soul mates are a real thing, the one with whom I could never quite get the timing right.

We still haven't figured it out, and it's been 18 years. Life got messy for both of us. He's still going through a divorce (I know, just what you want to hear) and guilt and messiness over "leaving" his son. So while that's all happening, we're separated, once again.

 

I wasn't sure how long it was going to take for him to come back to me. At one point, I decided that I'd always love him and would be there whenever he came back, but in the meantime I was going to go out, date, and see what happened instead of being alone, celibate and waiting on him for who knows how long.

 

And what happened was that I hated dating. All it did was reinforce that I'd rather be with him, even if it was messy, even if I had to wait, even if I had to make sacrifices. I could start over with someone new, but that wasn't what I wanted.

 

You may find that you'd rather be with him, than with someone else who shares your feelings on marriage. He may find he'd rather be with you and remain unmarried, than with someone else who wants to get married. Because that one shared value might mean nothing if it's shared with the wrong person. Or, in time, you may both find that you made the right decision. I think if you give it a little time, the answer will be clearer to you both.

 

On the one hand, there's sort of an irony about that the fact that he feels you are so important to him he would like to make a commitment to be your partner for life and that's what is breaking you up. But I also think if he is the right person, you'll feel it in your gut. FWIW, I am pretty positive if I had married "the love of my life" instead of my exH, we would have had a MUCH greater chance of having a successful marriage. Because with him, I would have stuck it out when things got rough. With exH, we never had anything in the first place to save. It just never should have been. WHO you marry matters.

 

Don't let fear cause regrets....but also don't ignore your gut. Always go with your gut. *hugs*

 

Always consider you gut. Always going with your gut especially in times that you know its emotion leading you and not logic when a logical answer is needed is failure.

 

You need to do both. Be emotional and live with that. Don't forget to temper that with logic. Just don't get bogged down in logic to the point of fear and failure or rather crippling yourself not to act.

 

Experience is more imporant than failure and success. You would never have come to any realization about yourself if you had not made the decisions you had. I bet you know yourself better now than you would have if you had been that other person.

 

Looking back is great if you are learning and gain value from it other than nostalgic longning. All that does is nothing really.

 

Of course the Who matters. I would challenge anyone to prove that something else matters more in modern marriage. I have watched many people try things for reasons other than who... it was 100% failure thus far in my observations of my friends and relatives.

 

Don't regret making mistakes. If anything regret not doing anything worth making mistakes over.

 

gall, this is great--thank you. I feel you should all bill me or something for your time and advice.

 

''Don't regret making mistakes.'' I don't know how to do that though. I mean, take religion. I have a lot of regrets from staying lost in Christianity, letting fear keep me in it for far too long. Idk. Maybe it's something for me to work on. Do you not regret anything, gall?