The Documentary Hypothesis Delusion

[Blood]

"It would appear to be self-evident and entirely natural for biblical scholars who treat the subject of the origins of history writing in ancient Israel to give some attention to the corresponding rise of history writing in Greece and to the work of Herodotus in particular. But this has not been the case, and the neglect of Greek historiography for any comparative study has been almost total ... it has been customary for a long time now to understand the rise of history writing in Israel as an inner Israelite development quite independent of Near Eastern influence and as something that anticipated the emergence of Greek historians by five hundred years ... it seems ironic that the exponents of the prevailing view have drawn upon Greek analogies of the sixth and fifth centuries without, however, making such a comparison explicit." 

 

-- John Van Seters, In Search of History: Historiography in the Ancient World and the Origins of Biblical History (1983), pg. 8. 

[Ravenstar]

 

 

The archaeology places the Hebrews as slightly before the Greek archaic age, before the classical. Their relationship to the Canaanites is unmistakable…they are an offshoot of them - like the gypsy's (Roma) are offshoots of the Romanians. The linguistics are unmistakable, the art and architecture and pottery is nearly identical.. the syncretism of their theology, and it's evolution is obviously rooted in Canaanite pantheism, influenced by Mesopotamian, Egyptian (monotheism - a la Ahkenaten) and Persian thought… only later by Hellenistic thought.

 

Half right - the Hebrews do derive from the Canaanites, but the Roma are not offshoots of the Romanians. The language and genetics of the Roma demonstrate an origin in northern India. Whether Hellenistic thought influenced the Hebrew writers that wrote the Bible or not is entirely a question of how late the Bible was written. Certainly, many of the stories that had been incorporated had hovered around in narratives all around the middle east for a while, often originating in the cultures you mention. The fact that a book has an early source doesn't mean all its sources are equally early, though.

 

Correct… I retract, had forgotten about the Northern indian roots of the Romas.

[Ravenstar]

I suggest that most cultures are egocentric… the Torah does not contain any references to Greece.. or if it does they are minimal. Writing histories (as it were) is much, much older than the Greek tradition. Having studied ancient history, art and religion… I'm just not seeing it. I am familiar with Greek theological concepts.. to a point, and the Torah isn't even close - except for maybe the Prometheus story, and maybe Icarus. Greek theological constructs are far more… human and agriculturally based. The Hebrew concept of theology is distant, remote… it's 'deities' and demigods, angels, relationship to the divine, whatever are… more ethereal/cerebral/legalistic compared to the earthier Greek and Roman equivalents. 

 

I do see how Greek language, after say maybe 500 - 400 BCE could have influenced the rewritings, since it became the sort of 'lingua franca' of the middle east during the classical period (Even the Egyptian literate spoke Greek as well as Egyptian). Language does impact thought and culture.. that's a given, but I still see many more connections with the earlier empires/clutures in the Torah stories and 'histories'...

 

Should we put this on Alexander then?

[Blood]

The Greeks are mentioned in the Torah, as well as the rest of the Bible. Who do you think the "sons of Japheth" were?

 

"May YHWH make room for Japeth, and let him live in the tents of Shem" (Genesis 9:27)

 

"The sons of Japheth were Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras. ³ The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz and ^[a]Riphath and Togarmah. ⁴ The sons of Javan wereElishah and Tarshish, Kittim and ^[b]Dodanim. ⁵ From these the coastlands of the nations ^[c]were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations." (Genesis 10:1-5)

 

All quotes below from Westermann's Genesis 1-11 commentary, pp. 504-509. 

 

"The name Japheth agrees phonetically with the Greek Ἰάφεθ, one of the Titans. He is the son of Ouranos and Gaia ... the sons of Japheth are mostly in the area of Asia Minor and Armenia, so one presumes a connection between them ..."

 

Gomer: "The name is attested in cuneiform as Gimirrai ... their original dwelling place was on the North coast of the Black Sea between the Don and the Danube ... Homer knows them there ... after being defeated by the Assyrians, they conquer Gugu of Luddi and settle in Cappadocia ... Herodotus gives an account of this."

 

Javan: "The explanation of the name as the Ionians is also certain. It refers to the Ionian Greeks on the coast of Asia Minor where they had been advancing since the 8th Century ... after Alexander the Great, the name was extended to all Greeks, Joel 4:8, Zech 9:13, Dan 8:21, 10:20, 11:2, as the Gk and Vg versions show ..."

 

"Tubal and Meshech are mentioned together in all OT passages where they occur, as well as in the cuneiform texts and Herodotus (III, 94) ... according to Herodotus, they belonged to the 19th satrapy of Darius. Both are mentioned together with Javan in Is 66:19 ..."

 

The Sons of Javan (Ion):

 

Elishah: "There is virtual unanimity in equating (Elishah) with Alashiah of Akkadian and Hittite inscriptions and with Cyprus, the land of copper (the name copper comes from Cyprus)..."

 

Tarshish: "One can assume with E. Speiser: 'The biblical name may refer to more than one place.' WF Albright assumes a place on Sardinia with the same name; but that is uncertain."

 

Kittim and Rhodanim: "They are the two large islands of Cyprus and Rhodes, which lie off the south coast of Asia Minor ... there were Greek settlements on both islands so that the designation 'sons of Javan' makes sense. Kittim is a Hebrew form of the Greek Κίτιον, a city on Cyprus."

 

"Ships shall come from Kittim, and shall afflict Ashur and Eber, and he shall perish forever." (Numbers 24:24). 

 

What do you know, not only are the Greeks mentioned in the Torah, there are close correspondences to logoi in Herodotus. 

[Blood]

Writing histories (as it were) is much, much older than the Greek tradition. 

 

 

I'm just going to ignore you said that. If you continue to talk to me like I'm an idiot, you're going on my ignore list. 

[miekko]

irrelevant point, removed. 

[Blood]

 

The Greeks are mentioned in the Torah, as well as the rest of the Bible. Who do you think the "sons of Japheth" were?

 

That is a pretty bold statement. Some credulous people think Germany is mentioned in Gen 10:3 too.

 

It is entirely possible the equation of Greeks = Japhet is a later development, just as Edom = Rome, Ashkenaz = Germany, Sepharad = Spain or whatever vowels go in TZ-R-F-T (France); all of these are ethnicities whose names have been reassigned to other ethnicities and regions - some already in antiquity. 

 

 

The funny part about that is I deliberately quoted a conservative, Claus Westermann, in support of that interpretation, specifically to avoid having someone  comment, "That's a pretty bold statement." I could have quoted Thomas L. Thompson, who of course completely supports that identification. But that would have been too easy. 

[miekko]

The Greeks are mentioned in the Torah, as well as the rest of the Bible. Who do you think the "sons of Japheth" were?

 

"May YHWH make room for Japeth, and let him live in the tents of Shem" (Genesis 9:27)

 

"The sons of Japheth were Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras. ³ The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz and ^[a]Riphath and Togarmah. ⁴ The sons of Javan wereElishah and Tarshish, Kittim and ^[b]Dodanim. ⁵ From these the coastlands of the nations ^[c]were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations." (Genesis 10:1-5)

 

All quotes below from Westermann's Genesis 1-11 commentary, pp. 504-509. 

 

"The name Japheth agrees phonetically with the Greek Ἰάφεθ, one of the Titans. He is the son of Ouranos and Gaia ... the sons of Japheth are mostly in the area of Asia Minor and Armenia, so one presumes a connection between them ..."

 

Gomer: "The name is attested in cuneiform as Gimirrai ... their original dwelling place was on the North coast of the Black Sea between the Don and the Danube ... Homer knows them there ... after being defeated by the Assyrians, they conquer Gugu of Luddi and settle in Cappadocia ... Herodotus gives an account of this."

 

Javan: "The explanation of the name as the Ionians is also certain. It refers to the Ionian Greeks on the coast of Asia Minor where they had been advancing since the 8th Century ... after Alexander the Great, the name was extended to all Greeks, Joel 4:8, Zech 9:13, Dan 8:21, 10:20, 11:2, as the Gk and Vg versions show ..."

 

"Tubal and Meshech are mentioned together in all OT passages where they occur, as well as in the cuneiform texts and Herodotus (III, 94) ... according to Herodotus, they belonged to the 19th satrapy of Darius. Both are mentioned together with Javan in Is 66:19 ..."

 

The Sons of Javan (Ion):

 

Elishah: "There is virtual unanimity in equating (Elishah) with Alashiah of Akkadian and Hittite inscriptions and with Cyprus, the land of copper (the name copper comes from Cyprus)..."

 

Tarshish: "One can assume with E. Speiser: 'The biblical name may refer to more than one place.' WF Albright assumes a place on Sardinia with the same name; but that is uncertain."

 

Kittim and Rhodanim: "They are the two large islands of Cyprus and Rhodes, which lie off the south coast of Asia Minor ... there were Greek settlements on both islands so that the designation 'sons of Javan' makes sense. Kittim is a Hebrew form of the Greek Κίτιον, a city on Cyprus."

 

"Ships shall come from Kittim, and shall afflict Ashur and Eber, and he shall perish forever." (Numbers 24:24). 

 

What do you know, not only are the Greeks mentioned in the Torah, there are close correspondences to logoi in Herodotus. 

 

Funny how you omit mentioning how many of the tribes you list aren't greek. The cimmirai weren't greek, the tubal and meschech tribes belonging to the 19th satrapy of Darius aren't greek (there's some evidence they were understood to be armenians and georgians and the like), several scholars - and ancient evidence - suggest Tarshish was understood as Carthage, although as stated it probably refers to different places in different texts.

 

(BTW, lots of conservative sources did jump to conclusions as well, so .... )

[mymistake]

J, P, E, D as apologetics?  Wow.  The casual look destroys the idea that the Bible is inspired.  It makes so much more sense as the work of multiple religions; each one rebooting and reworking the material from previous religions.

[Ravenstar]

 

Writing histories (as it were) is much, much older than the Greek tradition. 

 

 

I'm just going to ignore you said that. If you continue to talk to me like I'm an idiot, you're going on my ignore list. 

 

Quit being an ass.. no one is insulting you. I am DISAGREEING with you. There is a difference.

[Ravenstar]

If we are looking at linguistics, then we are speaking of Kartvelian languages.

 

The Kartvelian languages (Georgian: ქართველური ენები) (also known as Iberian^[2] and South Caucasian^[3]) are a language family indigenous to the Caucasus and spoken primarily in Georgia, with large groups of native speakers in Russia, Iran, the United States, the European Union, Israel,^[4] and northeastern parts of Turkey.^[5] There are approximately 5.2 million speakers of Kartvelian languages worldwide. It is not known to be related to any other language family, making it one of the world's primarylanguage families.^[6] The first literary source in a Kartvelian language is the Georgian languageinscription of Abba Antoni, written in ancient Georgian script at the Georgian monastery nearBethlehem,^[7] which dates back to c. 430 AD.^[8]

 

The Georgian script is the writing system used to write all Kartvelian languages.

 

Georgian is the official language of Georgia (spoken by 90% of the population) and the main language for literary and business use for all Kartvelian speakers in Georgia. It is written with an original and distinctive alphabet, and the oldest surviving literary text dates from the 5th century AD — the only Caucasian language that possesses an ancient literary tradition. The old Georgian script seems to have derived from Aramaic, with Greek influences.^[9]

 

Mingrelian has been written with the Georgian alphabet since 1864, especially in the period from 1930 to 1938, when the Mingrelians enjoyed some cultural autonomy, and after 1989.

 

The Laz language was written chiefly between 1927 and 1937, and now again in Turkey, with the Latin alphabet. Laz, however, is disappearing as its speakers are integrating into mainstream Turkish society.

 

The Kartvelian language family consists of four closely related languages:^{[3][10][11][12][13][14]}

• Svan (ლუშნუ ნინ, lušnu nin), with approximately 35,000–40,000 native speakers mainly in the northwestern mountainous region of Svaneti, Georgia, and in the Kodori Gorge of Abkhazia, Georgia.
• Karto-Zan
  • Georgian (ქართული ენა, kartuli ena) with approximately 4.5 million native speakers, mainly in Georgia. There are Georgian-speaking communities in Russia, Turkey, Iran, Israel, and EU countries, but the current number and distribution of them are unknown.
  • Zan
    • Mingrelian (მარგალური ნინა, margaluri nina), with some 500,000 native speakers in 1989, mainly in the western regions of Georgia of Samegrelo and Abkhazia (at present in Gali district only). The number of Mingrelian speakers in Abkhazia underwent a dramatic decrease in the 1990s as a result of heavy ethnic cleansing of the Georgian population, the overwhelming majority of which wereMingrelians. The Mingrelians displaced from Abkhazia are scattered elsewhere in the Georgian government territory, with dense clusters in Tbilisi and Zugdidi.
    • Laz (ლაზური ნენა, lazuri nena), with 220,000 native speakers in 1980, mostly in the Black Sealittoral area of northeast Turkey, and with some 30,000 in Adjara, Georgia.

 

This is connected with Japhetic Theory… In linguistics, the Japhetic theory of Soviet linguist Nikolay Yakovlevich Marr (1864–1934) postulated that the Kartvelian languages of the Caucasus area are related to the Semitic languages of the Middle East. The theory gained favor among Soviet linguists for ideological reasons, as it was thought to represent "proletarian science" as opposed to "bourgeois science".

 

Marr adopted the term "Japhetic" from Japheth, the name of one of the sons of Noah, in order to characterise his theory that the Kartvelian languages of theCaucasus area were related to the Semitic languages of the Middle East (named after Shem, Japheth's brother). Marr postulated a common origin of Caucasian, Semitic-Hamitic, and Basque languages. This initial theory pre-dated the October revolution. In 1917, Marr enthusiastically endorsed the revolution, and offered his services to the new Soviet regime. He was soon accepted as the country's leading linguist.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhetic_theory_(linguistics)

 

1.  J. V. Stalin, Marxism and Problems of Linguistics, first published in the June 20, July 4, and August 2, 1950 issues of Pravda; reprinted by Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow. online version (marxists.org)
2. Jump up^ Smith, Graham (1998), Nation-building in the Post-Soviet Borderlands: The Politics of National Identities, p. 178. Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-59968-7.
3. Jump up^ Dahrendorf, Ellen (2005), The Unknown Stalin, p. 205. I.B.Tauris, ISBN 1-85043-980-X.

 

 

Japheth is Semitic.. a Hebrew name:  

 

The name Japheth in the Bible

 

Japheth is a son of Noah. His older brother is Shem, his younger brother is Ham (Genesis 10:21 & 9:24). The descendants of Japheth occupy Europe and Asia Minor. His son is Javan, which is the common Biblical name for Greece.

 

Etymology of the name Japheth

 

The name Japheth is identical to the word used in Noah's blessing (Genesis 9:27), where it is commonly translated as to enlarge: "May God enlarge Japheth..." Both this verb and the name Japheth come from the root group פתה (patah):

 

פתה

The root-verb פתה (pata) means to be spacious, wide or open, but, as BDB Theological Dictionary chivalrously submits, the relationship between this root and its derivatives - which all have to do with being simple and easily persuaded - are not very well understood.

 

BDB suggests it may be because simple-minded people are open for all kinds of enticements, but it may also simply be that our root-verb expresses not only a wide and spacious land, but also a big empty head.

 

The only instances of the root-verb occur in Genesis 9:27 (May God "make wide" for Japheth), Proverbs 20:19 ("one open"; i.e. a slanderer or blabbermouth?) and the similar Proverbs 24:28 (do not "make wide" with your lips).

This verb's only derived noun, the masculine פתי (peti) means simplicity, and it occurs only once, in Proverbs 1:22. From this noun, however, comes the denominative verb פתה (pata, which is identical to the root-verb. Some lexicons, HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament for instance, make no distinction between the two.

 

But whether this verb is separate or the same as the root-verb, it means to be simple or foolish (Job 5:2, Hosea 7:11). People that display the behavior described by this verb are easily persuaded (Exodus 22:16, Hosea 2:16) or deceived (2 Samuel 3:25, Proverbs 24:28).

 

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Japheth.html#.U-BNAxbd7wI

 

Javan (Hebrew יָוָן, Standard Hebrew Yavan, Tiberian Hebrew Yāwān) was the fourth son of Noah's son Japheth according to the "Table of Nations" (Genesis chapter 10) in the Hebrew Bible. Flavius Josephus states the traditional belief that this individual was the ancestor of the Greek people.

Also serving as the Hebrew name for Greece or Greeks in general, יָוָן Yavan or Yāwān has long been considered cognate with the name of the eastern Greeks, the Ionians (Greek Ἴωνες Iōnes, Homeric Greek Ἰάονες Iáones; earlier *Ιαϝονες Iawones).^[1] The Greek race has been known by cognate names throughout the Eastern Mediterranean, Near East and beyond—even in Sanskrit (yavana). In Greek mythology, the eponymous forefather of the Ionians is similarly called Ion, a son of Apollo. The opinion that Javan is synonymous with Greek Ion and thus fathered the Ionians is common to numerous writers of the early modern period including Sir Walter Raleigh, Samuel Bochart, John Mill and Jonathan Edwards, and is still frequently encountered today.

 

Javan is also found in apocalyptic literature in the Book of Daniel, 8:21-22 and 11:2, in reference to the King of Greece (יון)—most commonly interpreted as a reference to Alexander the Great.^{[2] 
(emphasis mine)}

 

While Javan is generally associated with the ancient Greeks and Greece (cf. Gen. 10:2, Dan. 8:21, Zech. 9:13, etc.), his sons (as listed in Genesis 10) are usually associated with locations in the Northeastern Mediterranean Sea and Anatolia: Elishah (modern Cyprus), Tarshish (Tartessos, south of Spain, or modern southern Turkey for others),Kittim (modern Cyprus), and Dodanim (alt. 1 Chron. 1:7 'Rodanim,' the island of Rhodes, west of modern Turkey between Cyprus and the mainland of Greece).^[3]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Another thought… the major civilizations of the area, Mesopotamia/Persia in the north and Egypt in the south were constantly fighting over the area in the middle (Israel, Syria, Canaan, Jordan, etc..) in ploys for territory..back and forth, back and forth… for most of that 3500 years. Long before the Greeks or Romans even existed. The Merneptah Stele places the Hebrews(Israel) in Palestine in 1200 BCE… 500 years before the Archaic Greeks.

 

 

I have some questions, which arose from your comment in the Sunday Dispatch thread that there has been conflict in Palestine for 5,000 years.  At what time did polytheism change into monotheism/Yahwehism, and what was driving the conflict before then?  Was it non-religious factors such as access to resources?  If so, why was Palestine the location of conflict?

[Ravenstar]

hmm.. good questions.

 

Israel/Syria/Lebanon.. et al.. sat right in between Egypt and Mesopotamia. There's good farmland/grazing land, access to the sea and copper in abundance. I would think it probably began between the iron age and the bronze age. There are ancient copper mines in the area and the need for it for bronze would have been …ummm... tempting. Two to five large empires and this little bit of land in between with only small tribal kingdoms. Both sides invaded back and forth for control. Example: Jerusalem.. quite early belonged to Egypt and paid tribute to the Pharaoh.

 

Ultimately, resources. Same old story… 

 

Of course then there are the mysterious Hittites.. they played a large role, but we don't know much about them.

 

Yahwehism… is quite late to the story, as Asherah poles were still in the temple for a long time (polytheism - thousands of Asherah figurines are found all over the area - they seem to have been VERY common). Once Israel was conquered/scattered and Judah was the main Hebrew state I believe that is when the Yahwists became predominate.. though surely they'd been around a lot longer than that.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Thanks, Ravenstar.  I went from having a xian view of Israel having a god-given right to the land there, to thinking the current conflict is all about the struggle between Jews and Muslims, to (currently) thinking the conflict has been going on for 5,000 years, in line with your comments above. 

[DoubtingNate]

 

 

Another thought… the major civilizations of the area, Mesopotamia/Persia in the north and Egypt in the south were constantly fighting over the area in the middle (Israel, Syria, Canaan, Jordan, etc..) in ploys for territory..back and forth, back and forth… for most of that 3500 years. Long before the Greeks or Romans even existed. The Merneptah Stele places the Hebrews(Israel) in Palestine in 1200 BCE… 500 years before the Archaic Greeks.

 

 

I have some questions, which arose from your comment in the Sunday Dispatch thread that there has been conflict in Palestine for 5,000 years.  At what time did polytheism change into monotheism/Yahwehism, and what was driving the conflict before then?  Was it non-religious factors such as access to resources?  If so, why was Palestine the location of conflict?

 

 

My understanding, in a nutshell, is that monotheism comes from Zoroastrianism, a Persian faith.. so the Jews most likely 'discovered' this idea when they were being occupied by the Persians. An oversimplification perhaps, but that's kind of the gist of it... right?

[miekko]

 

 

 

Another thought… the major civilizations of the area, Mesopotamia/Persia in the north and Egypt in the south were constantly fighting over the area in the middle (Israel, Syria, Canaan, Jordan, etc..) in ploys for territory..back and forth, back and forth… for most of that 3500 years. Long before the Greeks or Romans even existed. The Merneptah Stele places the Hebrews(Israel) in Palestine in 1200 BCE… 500 years before the Archaic Greeks.

 

 

I have some questions, which arose from your comment in the Sunday Dispatch thread that there has been conflict in Palestine for 5,000 years.  At what time did polytheism change into monotheism/Yahwehism, and what was driving the conflict before then?  Was it non-religious factors such as access to resources?  If so, why was Palestine the location of conflict?

 

 

My understanding, in a nutshell, is that monotheism comes from Zoroastrianism, a Persian faith.. so the Jews most likely 'discovered' this idea when they were being occupied by the Persians. An oversimplification perhaps, but that's kind of the gist of it... right?

 

A friend of mine who's been studying Zoroastrianism in depth is very suspicious about this claim; he says Zoroastrian monotheism only really crystallized after the Muslim invasion of Persia. Zoroastrian holy books also are not particularly clearly monotheist - if you think the inclusion of angels is a concession to polytheism, then Zoroastrism makes monotheism look like nothing but concessions to polytheism.

[miekko]

Ravenstar: you do realize that the use of the term "Japhetic" for Kartvelian in Soviet linguistics does not demonstrate any fact about what or whom Japheth signified in the Bible? (Also, even in linguistics, the term Japhetic is not used any more, just like Hamitic has fallen by the wayside. Japhetic fell by the wayside because there already existed less loaded terms that had been in use for a longer time, and Hamitic because the division of 'Semitohamitic' into hamitic and semitic branches isn't really possible.) 

[Blood]

If we are looking at linguistics, then we are speaking of Kartvelian languages.

 

The Kartvelian languages (Georgian: ქართველური ენები) (also known as Iberian^[2] and South Caucasian^[3]) are a language family indigenous to the Caucasus and spoken primarily in Georgia, with large groups of native speakers in Russia, Iran, the United States, the European Union, Israel,^[4] and northeastern parts of Turkey.^[5] There are approximately 5.2 million speakers of Kartvelian languages worldwide. It is not known to be related to any other language family, making it one of the world's primarylanguage families.^[6] The first literary source in a Kartvelian language is the Georgian languageinscription of Abba Antoni, written in ancient Georgian script at the Georgian monastery nearBethlehem,^[7] which dates back to c. 430 AD.^[8]

 

The Georgian script is the writing system used to write all Kartvelian languages.

 

Georgian is the official language of Georgia (spoken by 90% of the population) and the main language for literary and business use for all Kartvelian speakers in Georgia. It is written with an original and distinctive alphabet, and the oldest surviving literary text dates from the 5th century AD — the only Caucasian language that possesses an ancient literary tradition. The old Georgian script seems to have derived from Aramaic, with Greek influences.^[9]

 

Mingrelian has been written with the Georgian alphabet since 1864, especially in the period from 1930 to 1938, when the Mingrelians enjoyed some cultural autonomy, and after 1989.

 

The Laz language was written chiefly between 1927 and 1937, and now again in Turkey, with the Latin alphabet. Laz, however, is disappearing as its speakers are integrating into mainstream Turkish society.

 

The Kartvelian language family consists of four closely related languages:^{[3][10][11][12][13][14]}

• Svan (ლუშნუ ნინ, lušnu nin), with approximately 35,000–40,000 native speakers mainly in the northwestern mountainous region of Svaneti, Georgia, and in the Kodori Gorge of Abkhazia, Georgia.
• Karto-Zan
  • Georgian (ქართული ენა, kartuli ena) with approximately 4.5 million native speakers, mainly in Georgia. There are Georgian-speaking communities in Russia, Turkey, Iran, Israel, and EU countries, but the current number and distribution of them are unknown.
  • Zan
    • Mingrelian (მარგალური ნინა, margaluri nina), with some 500,000 native speakers in 1989, mainly in the western regions of Georgia of Samegrelo and Abkhazia (at present in Gali district only). The number of Mingrelian speakers in Abkhazia underwent a dramatic decrease in the 1990s as a result of heavy ethnic cleansing of the Georgian population, the overwhelming majority of which wereMingrelians. The Mingrelians displaced from Abkhazia are scattered elsewhere in the Georgian government territory, with dense clusters in Tbilisi and Zugdidi.
    • Laz (ლაზური ნენა, lazuri nena), with 220,000 native speakers in 1980, mostly in the Black Sealittoral area of northeast Turkey, and with some 30,000 in Adjara, Georgia.

 

This is connected with Japhetic Theory… In linguistics, the Japhetic theory of Soviet linguist Nikolay Yakovlevich Marr (1864–1934) postulated that the Kartvelian languages of the Caucasus area are related to the Semitic languages of the Middle East. The theory gained favor among Soviet linguists for ideological reasons, as it was thought to represent "proletarian science" as opposed to "bourgeois science".

 

Marr adopted the term "Japhetic" from Japheth, the name of one of the sons of Noah, in order to characterise his theory that the Kartvelian languages of theCaucasus area were related to the Semitic languages of the Middle East (named after Shem, Japheth's brother). Marr postulated a common origin of Caucasian, Semitic-Hamitic, and Basque languages. This initial theory pre-dated the October revolution. In 1917, Marr enthusiastically endorsed the revolution, and offered his services to the new Soviet regime. He was soon accepted as the country's leading linguist.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhetic_theory_(linguistics)

 

1.  J. V. Stalin, Marxism and Problems of Linguistics, first published in the June 20, July 4, and August 2, 1950 issues of Pravda; reprinted by Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow. online version (marxists.org)
2. Jump up^ Smith, Graham (1998), Nation-building in the Post-Soviet Borderlands: The Politics of National Identities, p. 178. Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-59968-7.
3. Jump up^ Dahrendorf, Ellen (2005), The Unknown Stalin, p. 205. I.B.Tauris, ISBN 1-85043-980-X.

 

 

Japheth is Semitic.. a Hebrew name:  

 

The name Japheth in the Bible

 

Japheth is a son of Noah. His older brother is Shem, his younger brother is Ham (Genesis 10:21 & 9:24). The descendants of Japheth occupy Europe and Asia Minor. His son is Javan, which is the common Biblical name for Greece.

 

Etymology of the name Japheth

 

The name Japheth is identical to the word used in Noah's blessing (Genesis 9:27), where it is commonly translated as to enlarge: "May God enlarge Japheth..." Both this verb and the name Japheth come from the root group פתה (patah):

 

פתה

The root-verb פתה (pata) means to be spacious, wide or open, but, as BDB Theological Dictionary chivalrously submits, the relationship between this root and its derivatives - which all have to do with being simple and easily persuaded - are not very well understood.

 

BDB suggests it may be because simple-minded people are open for all kinds of enticements, but it may also simply be that our root-verb expresses not only a wide and spacious land, but also a big empty head.

 

The only instances of the root-verb occur in Genesis 9:27 (May God "make wide" for Japheth), Proverbs 20:19 ("one open"; i.e. a slanderer or blabbermouth?) and the similar Proverbs 24:28 (do not "make wide" with your lips).

This verb's only derived noun, the masculine פתי (peti) means simplicity, and it occurs only once, in Proverbs 1:22. From this noun, however, comes the denominative verb פתה (pata, which is identical to the root-verb. Some lexicons, HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament for instance, make no distinction between the two.

 

But whether this verb is separate or the same as the root-verb, it means to be simple or foolish (Job 5:2, Hosea 7:11). People that display the behavior described by this verb are easily persuaded (Exodus 22:16, Hosea 2:16) or deceived (2 Samuel 3:25, Proverbs 24:28).

 

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Japheth.html#.U-BNAxbd7wI

 

Javan (Hebrew יָוָן, Standard Hebrew Yavan, Tiberian Hebrew Yāwān) was the fourth son of Noah's son Japheth according to the "Table of Nations" (Genesis chapter 10) in the Hebrew Bible. Flavius Josephus states the traditional belief that this individual was the ancestor of the Greek people.

Also serving as the Hebrew name for Greece or Greeks in general, יָוָן Yavan or Yāwān has long been considered cognate with the name of the eastern Greeks, the Ionians (Greek Ἴωνες Iōnes, Homeric Greek Ἰάονες Iáones; earlier *Ιαϝονες Iawones).^[1] The Greek race has been known by cognate names throughout the Eastern Mediterranean, Near East and beyond—even in Sanskrit (yavana). In Greek mythology, the eponymous forefather of the Ionians is similarly called Ion, a son of Apollo. The opinion that Javan is synonymous with Greek Ion and thus fathered the Ionians is common to numerous writers of the early modern period including Sir Walter Raleigh, Samuel Bochart, John Mill and Jonathan Edwards, and is still frequently encountered today.

 

Javan is also found in apocalyptic literature in the Book of Daniel, 8:21-22 and 11:2, in reference to the King of Greece (יון)—most commonly interpreted as a reference to Alexander the Great.^[2] 

^{(emphasis mine)}

 

While Javan is generally associated with the ancient Greeks and Greece (cf. Gen. 10:2, Dan. 8:21, Zech. 9:13, etc.), his sons (as listed in Genesis 10) are usually associated with locations in the Northeastern Mediterranean Sea and Anatolia: Elishah (modern Cyprus), Tarshish (Tartessos, south of Spain, or modern southern Turkey for others),Kittim (modern Cyprus), and Dodanim (alt. 1 Chron. 1:7 'Rodanim,' the island of Rhodes, west of modern Turkey between Cyprus and the mainland of Greece).^[3]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan

 

Oh great, a wall of text from Wikipedia. Thanks. Could you perhaps quote a recent Genesis Commentary?

[Blood]

I've already quoted the major commentary on Genesis in modern times, Westermann's, in support of the Japheth = Iapetos theory. 

 

Then I remembered that I also have E.A. Speiser's Genesis Commentary from 1985. Surely he would agree that "Japheth is Semitic.. a Hebrew name" that has nothing to do with Iapetos?

 

"Japheth. The same name is apparently reflected in Iapetos, who was one of the Titans. It is significant, therefore, that the descendants of Japheth include the Ionians (Javan, i.e. Yawan). In general, the Japhethite line may be said to comprise various ethnic groups that were settled at the time in Anatolia, the Aegean region, and beyond." (pp. 65-66)

[Blood]

 

The Greeks are mentioned in the Torah, as well as the rest of the Bible. Who do you think the "sons of Japheth" were?

 

"May YHWH make room for Japeth, and let him live in the tents of Shem" (Genesis 9:27)

 

"The sons of Japheth were Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech and Tiras. ³ The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz and ^[a]Riphath and Togarmah. ⁴ The sons of Javan wereElishah and Tarshish, Kittim and ^[b]Dodanim. ⁵ From these the coastlands of the nations ^[c]were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations." (Genesis 10:1-5)

 

All quotes below from Westermann's Genesis 1-11 commentary, pp. 504-509. 

 

"The name Japheth agrees phonetically with the Greek Ἰάφεθ, one of the Titans. He is the son of Ouranos and Gaia ... the sons of Japheth are mostly in the area of Asia Minor and Armenia, so one presumes a connection between them ..."

 

Gomer: "The name is attested in cuneiform as Gimirrai ... their original dwelling place was on the North coast of the Black Sea between the Don and the Danube ... Homer knows them there ... after being defeated by the Assyrians, they conquer Gugu of Luddi and settle in Cappadocia ... Herodotus gives an account of this."

 

Javan: "The explanation of the name as the Ionians is also certain. It refers to the Ionian Greeks on the coast of Asia Minor where they had been advancing since the 8th Century ... after Alexander the Great, the name was extended to all Greeks, Joel 4:8, Zech 9:13, Dan 8:21, 10:20, 11:2, as the Gk and Vg versions show ..."

 

"Tubal and Meshech are mentioned together in all OT passages where they occur, as well as in the cuneiform texts and Herodotus (III, 94) ... according to Herodotus, they belonged to the 19th satrapy of Darius. Both are mentioned together with Javan in Is 66:19 ..."

 

The Sons of Javan (Ion):

 

Elishah: "There is virtual unanimity in equating (Elishah) with Alashiah of Akkadian and Hittite inscriptions and with Cyprus, the land of copper (the name copper comes from Cyprus)..."

 

Tarshish: "One can assume with E. Speiser: 'The biblical name may refer to more than one place.' WF Albright assumes a place on Sardinia with the same name; but that is uncertain."

 

Kittim and Rhodanim: "They are the two large islands of Cyprus and Rhodes, which lie off the south coast of Asia Minor ... there were Greek settlements on both islands so that the designation 'sons of Javan' makes sense. Kittim is a Hebrew form of the Greek Κίτιον, a city on Cyprus."

 

"Ships shall come from Kittim, and shall afflict Ashur and Eber, and he shall perish forever." (Numbers 24:24). 

 

What do you know, not only are the Greeks mentioned in the Torah, there are close correspondences to logoi in Herodotus. 

 

Funny how you omit mentioning how many of the tribes you list aren't greek. The cimmirai weren't greek, the tubal and meschech tribes belonging to the 19th satrapy of Darius aren't greek (there's some evidence they were understood to be armenians and georgians and the like), several scholars - and ancient evidence - suggest Tarshish was understood as Carthage, although as stated it probably refers to different places in different texts.

 

(BTW, lots of conservative sources did jump to conclusions as well, so .... )

 

 

Accusation of dishonesty duly noted. Westermann's discussion of Genesis 10:1-5 takes up over five pages. I'm not copying and pasting from Wikipedia for the information I'm posting in this thread, I'm typing it out from books that I own. Obviously, if a discussion of a passage is five pages long, I'm going to concentrate on the parts most relevant to the topic at hand. I shouldn't have to spell that out. No misrepresentation was intended. 

[miekko]

 

If we are looking at linguistics, then we are speaking of Kartvelian languages.

 

The Kartvelian languages (Georgian: ქართველური ენები) (also known as Iberian^[2] and South Caucasian^[3]) are a language family indigenous to the Caucasus and spoken primarily in Georgia, with large groups of native speakers in Russia, Iran, the United States, the European Union, Israel,^[4] and northeastern parts of Turkey.^[5] There are approximately 5.2 million speakers of Kartvelian languages worldwide. It is not known to be related to any other language family, making it one of the world's primarylanguage families.^[6] The first literary source in a Kartvelian language is the Georgian languageinscription of Abba Antoni, written in ancient Georgian script at the Georgian monastery nearBethlehem,^[7] which dates back to c. 430 AD.^[8]

 

The Georgian script is the writing system used to write all Kartvelian languages.

 

Georgian is the official language of Georgia (spoken by 90% of the population) and the main language for literary and business use for all Kartvelian speakers in Georgia. It is written with an original and distinctive alphabet, and the oldest surviving literary text dates from the 5th century AD — the only Caucasian language that possesses an ancient literary tradition. The old Georgian script seems to have derived from Aramaic, with Greek influences.^[9]

 

Mingrelian has been written with the Georgian alphabet since 1864, especially in the period from 1930 to 1938, when the Mingrelians enjoyed some cultural autonomy, and after 1989.

 

The Laz language was written chiefly between 1927 and 1937, and now again in Turkey, with the Latin alphabet. Laz, however, is disappearing as its speakers are integrating into mainstream Turkish society.

 

The Kartvelian language family consists of four closely related languages:^{[3][10][11][12][13][14]}

• Svan (ლუშნუ ნინ, lušnu nin), with approximately 35,000–40,000 native speakers mainly in the northwestern mountainous region of Svaneti, Georgia, and in the Kodori Gorge of Abkhazia, Georgia.
• Karto-Zan
  • Georgian (ქართული ენა, kartuli ena) with approximately 4.5 million native speakers, mainly in Georgia. There are Georgian-speaking communities in Russia, Turkey, Iran, Israel, and EU countries, but the current number and distribution of them are unknown.
  • Zan
    • Mingrelian (მარგალური ნინა, margaluri nina), with some 500,000 native speakers in 1989, mainly in the western regions of Georgia of Samegrelo and Abkhazia (at present in Gali district only). The number of Mingrelian speakers in Abkhazia underwent a dramatic decrease in the 1990s as a result of heavy ethnic cleansing of the Georgian population, the overwhelming majority of which wereMingrelians. The Mingrelians displaced from Abkhazia are scattered elsewhere in the Georgian government territory, with dense clusters in Tbilisi and Zugdidi.
    • Laz (ლაზური ნენა, lazuri nena), with 220,000 native speakers in 1980, mostly in the Black Sealittoral area of northeast Turkey, and with some 30,000 in Adjara, Georgia.

 

This is connected with Japhetic Theory… In linguistics, the Japhetic theory of Soviet linguist Nikolay Yakovlevich Marr (1864–1934) postulated that the Kartvelian languages of the Caucasus area are related to the Semitic languages of the Middle East. The theory gained favor among Soviet linguists for ideological reasons, as it was thought to represent "proletarian science" as opposed to "bourgeois science".

 

Marr adopted the term "Japhetic" from Japheth, the name of one of the sons of Noah, in order to characterise his theory that the Kartvelian languages of theCaucasus area were related to the Semitic languages of the Middle East (named after Shem, Japheth's brother). Marr postulated a common origin of Caucasian, Semitic-Hamitic, and Basque languages. This initial theory pre-dated the October revolution. In 1917, Marr enthusiastically endorsed the revolution, and offered his services to the new Soviet regime. He was soon accepted as the country's leading linguist.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhetic_theory_(linguistics)

 

1.  J. V. Stalin, Marxism and Problems of Linguistics, first published in the June 20, July 4, and August 2, 1950 issues of Pravda; reprinted by Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow. online version (marxists.org)
2. Jump up^ Smith, Graham (1998), Nation-building in the Post-Soviet Borderlands: The Politics of National Identities, p. 178. Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-59968-7.
3. Jump up^ Dahrendorf, Ellen (2005), The Unknown Stalin, p. 205. I.B.Tauris, ISBN 1-85043-980-X.

 

 

Japheth is Semitic.. a Hebrew name:  

 

The name Japheth in the Bible

 

Japheth is a son of Noah. His older brother is Shem, his younger brother is Ham (Genesis 10:21 & 9:24). The descendants of Japheth occupy Europe and Asia Minor. His son is Javan, which is the common Biblical name for Greece.

 

Etymology of the name Japheth

 

The name Japheth is identical to the word used in Noah's blessing (Genesis 9:27), where it is commonly translated as to enlarge: "May God enlarge Japheth..." Both this verb and the name Japheth come from the root group פתה (patah):

 

פתה

The root-verb פתה (pata) means to be spacious, wide or open, but, as BDB Theological Dictionary chivalrously submits, the relationship between this root and its derivatives - which all have to do with being simple and easily persuaded - are not very well understood.

 

BDB suggests it may be because simple-minded people are open for all kinds of enticements, but it may also simply be that our root-verb expresses not only a wide and spacious land, but also a big empty head.

 

The only instances of the root-verb occur in Genesis 9:27 (May God "make wide" for Japheth), Proverbs 20:19 ("one open"; i.e. a slanderer or blabbermouth?) and the similar Proverbs 24:28 (do not "make wide" with your lips).

This verb's only derived noun, the masculine פתי (peti) means simplicity, and it occurs only once, in Proverbs 1:22. From this noun, however, comes the denominative verb פתה (pata, which is identical to the root-verb. Some lexicons, HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament for instance, make no distinction between the two.

 

But whether this verb is separate or the same as the root-verb, it means to be simple or foolish (Job 5:2, Hosea 7:11). People that display the behavior described by this verb are easily persuaded (Exodus 22:16, Hosea 2:16) or deceived (2 Samuel 3:25, Proverbs 24:28).

 

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Japheth.html#.U-BNAxbd7wI

 

Javan (Hebrew יָוָן, Standard Hebrew Yavan, Tiberian Hebrew Yāwān) was the fourth son of Noah's son Japheth according to the "Table of Nations" (Genesis chapter 10) in the Hebrew Bible. Flavius Josephus states the traditional belief that this individual was the ancestor of the Greek people.

Also serving as the Hebrew name for Greece or Greeks in general, יָוָן Yavan or Yāwān has long been considered cognate with the name of the eastern Greeks, the Ionians (Greek Ἴωνες Iōnes, Homeric Greek Ἰάονες Iáones; earlier *Ιαϝονες Iawones).^[1] The Greek race has been known by cognate names throughout the Eastern Mediterranean, Near East and beyond—even in Sanskrit (yavana). In Greek mythology, the eponymous forefather of the Ionians is similarly called Ion, a son of Apollo. The opinion that Javan is synonymous with Greek Ion and thus fathered the Ionians is common to numerous writers of the early modern period including Sir Walter Raleigh, Samuel Bochart, John Mill and Jonathan Edwards, and is still frequently encountered today.

 

Javan is also found in apocalyptic literature in the Book of Daniel, 8:21-22 and 11:2, in reference to the King of Greece (יון)—most commonly interpreted as a reference to Alexander the Great.^[2] 

^{(emphasis mine)}

 

While Javan is generally associated with the ancient Greeks and Greece (cf. Gen. 10:2, Dan. 8:21, Zech. 9:13, etc.), his sons (as listed in Genesis 10) are usually associated with locations in the Northeastern Mediterranean Sea and Anatolia: Elishah (modern Cyprus), Tarshish (Tartessos, south of Spain, or modern southern Turkey for others),Kittim (modern Cyprus), and Dodanim (alt. 1 Chron. 1:7 'Rodanim,' the island of Rhodes, west of modern Turkey between Cyprus and the mainland of Greece).^[3]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan

 

Oh great, a wall of text from Wikipedia. Thanks. Could you perhaps quote a recent Genesis Commentary?

 

What kinda makes Ravenstar's wall of text even worse is that it's mainly irrelevant to the discussion.

[Blood]

Were J, E, and P the source for the laws in Exodus and Deuteronomy, or Plato's Nomoi (Laws)? Sometimes, the same "laws" appear in the same order in both texts. 

 

 

 

Exodus 21:4

-       children of female slaves belong to the master of the female slave

Nomoi 930d-e

-       children of female slaves belong to the master of the female slave

 

 

Exodus 21:15-17

-       whoever strikes or curses their father or mother shall be executed

 

Nomoi 872d-e-873b

-       whoever strikes their father or mother shall be executed

-       elders shall stone the accused to death, banish corpse at the borders unburied (cf. Leviticus 24:13-16: Blasphemer shall be stoned to death outside the camp)

 

 

Exodus 21:18-21

-       someone who injures, but doesn’t kill, another in a fight shall be free of liability, except to pay for loss of time

-       a slaveowner who strikes a slave who dies shall be punished; but if slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment

Nomoi 876e-877b

-       someone who injures, but doesn’t kill, another in a fight shall be free of liability, he shall make compensation for injury

-       a child who intentionally wounds his parents, or a slave who intentionally wounds his master, shall be put to death

 

 

Exodus 21:28

-       if an ox gores a person to death, it shall be stoned to death

Nomoi 873e

-       if a beast of burden or animal gores a person to death, it shall be stoned to death

 

 

Exodus 22:2-22:4

-       if a thief is caught breaking into a house and is beaten to death, no blood-guilt is incurred on the home owner

-       if an animal is stolen, when the animal is found alive in the thief’s possession, the thief shall pay double its worth

Nomoi 874c

-       if a thief is caught breaking into a house and is killed, the home owner is guiltless

Nomoi 875a

-       theives must pay double the worth of the stolen goods

(same laws in the same order)

 

 

Exodus 22:5-6

-       when someone lets their livestock graze on another’s field, restitution shall be made

-       when fire breaks out and burns the grain, restitution shall be made

Nomoi 843d-e

-       when someone lets their livestock graze on another’s field, restitution shall be made

-       when fire breaks out and burns wood, restitution shall be made

(same laws in the same order)

 

 

Deuteronomy

 

 

Deu 12:2-14

-       destroy all traces of other religious cults

-       no worship of the god in private dwellings

-       worship of the god centralized in one place

-       individuals sacrifice at centralized temple

Nomoi 909d-910a

-       there should be one law

-       no worship of the god in private dwellings

-       worship of the god centralized in one place

-       individuals hand over sacrifices to priest at centralized temple

(same laws in same order)

 

Deu 17:2-7

-       worshippers of other gods should be stoned to death

Nomoi 910b-c

-       worshippers of other gods should be executed

 

Deu 18:10-14

-       people forbidden to heed diviners and soothsayers

Nomoi 933c-e

-       diviners and soothsayers must be executed

 

Deu 16:18-20

-       judges cannot accept bribes

Nomoi 955c-d

-       obey the law that says, “do no service for a bribe”

 

Deu 19:4-6

-       people who commit involuntary homicide may flee to another city

Nomoi 865a-c

-       - people who commit involuntary homicide may be purified according to the law

 

Deu 19:16-19

-       false witnesses shall be punished with the same punishment that was intended for the defendant

Nomoi 937b-c

-       repeated false witnesses shall be executed

 

Deu 21:1-9

-       discovery of corpse, whose murderer is unknown; elders shall break neck of heifer and wash their hands over heifer thereby purging the guilt of innocent blood (city is purified)

Nomoi 874b

-       discovery of corpse, whose murderer is unknown; elders proclaim by herald in the agora that he who has slain the person shall not set foot in the country; if he appears, he will be executed (city is purified)

[Guest ninurta]

My hypothesis is that Abraham (or more likely a group of people - either a large family or a village) left Ur (Mesopotamia) for some reason or another (looking for land, exile, who knows?) ending up in the Levant bringing their legends and myths with them…probably around 2700 - 2500 BCE… these tales changed over time and were assigned to a new God, El of the Canaanites… splitting again from the Canaanites into the Hebrew tribes to become the ones that made it into the Torah.

Just one really big problem, there is a huge amount of evidence against that idea. Like the utter absence of west semitic languages in that area until a thousand years later. Hebrew would then have to be east semitic, like Akkadian which it is not. Also, Akkadian was still gaining dominance, so why so few sumerian influences on Hebrew? Akkadian and Sumerian both influenced eachother so greatly and deeply, that we literally see loanwords in Akkadian from Sumerian, that Sumerian once borrowed from Akkadian (and vice versa).

 

My theory is that it's a story based off the identification with the Apiru groups that had legends going around. They were known for confronting the great powers at that time that controlled palestine. Also, we know that the legend can't predate the babylonian captivity, because of alot of the ethnonyms like Hittites and Chaldeans, as well as some of the animals, like the domesticated camel.

 

No.. the actual stories are told elsewhere.. such as the Sargon birth story..from the Sumerian Kings list (incomplete) 2000 years before the classical Greek era..(5th to third centuries bce) and the creation story in the Enuma Elish….(dated about 1100bce - late version) the Epic of Gilgamesh is dated about 2100bce for the earliest versions.

 

They FAR predate the Greeks. These are actual texts… not hints of sources.

The association of the epic of gilgamesh with the flood story is sparse in sumerian texts. Gilgamesh goes to Bahrain to talk to the flood's survivor Ziusudra/Utnapishtim, and you get the picture. Though you already cover that its the 7th century myth genesis bears resemblance to.

 

Since Abraham was from Sumeria, doesn't it make more sense that the Sumerians are the source for the OT?

 

Not at all, since the hebrews never had contacts with the Sumerians directly. Their only contact was through the babylonians and assyrians as an intermediary. Honestly, the OT is a genuinely native text. Just like Hittite mythology is hittite mythology, and ugaritic mythology is ugaritic mythology; despite like the OT, being heavily influenced by neighboring cultures of its time.

 

For the most part, hebrew mythology is like akkadian mythology in the same way that vedic mythology resembles greek mythology, they evolved from a common semitic ancestor on top of whatever contacts. In fact, alot of the similar stories are best understood in their native contexts, rather than as a borrowing from the other. There has been in the past, attempts to plaster either mesopotamian mythology onto the bible, or the bible onto mesopotamian mythology, but assyriologists no longer take seriously "scholars" that still do this. Sure, there are borrowings and influences, but its seldom that simple.

It is a fact that several of the most important stories in the Torah.. are copies, borrowings from much much earlier. The story of the creation, the Flood, Moses…. the Law code was first established by Hammurabi.. and that comes down from the Sumerians - who were the first to write, have cities and what we would call 'civilization', have codified laws, etc.. (Sargon of Akkad conquered the Sumer civilization - Sargon is the root of the Moses story ["Moses" is an Egyptian word.. meaning 'son of'], The flood story comes from HERE:)

 

The Mesopotamian flood stories concern the epics of Ziusudra, Gilgamesh, and Atrahasis. In the Sumerian King List, it relies on the flood motif to divide its history into preflood and postflood periods. The preflood kings had enormous lifespans, whereas postflood lifespans were much reduced. The Sumerian flood myth found in the Deluge tablet was the epic of Ziusudra, who heard the Divine Counsel to destroy humanity, in which he constructed a vessel that delivered him from great waters.^[2] In the Atrahasis version, the flood is a river flood.^[3]

Assyriologist George Smith translated the Babylonian account of the Great Flood in the 19th century. Further discoveries produced several versions of the Mesopotamian flood myth, with the account closest to that in Genesis 6–9 found in a 700 BCE Babylonian copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh. In this work, the hero, Gilgamesh, meets the immortal man Utnapishtim, and the latter describes how the god Ea instructed him to build a huge vessel in anticipation of a deity-created flood that would destroy the world. The vessel would save Utnapishtim, his family, his friends, and the animals.

 

The Epic of Gilgamesh is considered the oldest story in the world.

 

EA is a SUMERIAN GOD. (EA = EN.KI)  Ea was his Akkadian and Babylonian name.. originally the patron god of Eridu, a Sumerian city.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

 

The Persians, the Akkadians, the Chaldeans, the Hittites, the Egyptians, etc… they were all there BEFORE the Greeks… by a fair bit. So were the Canaanites and Phoenicians, and from the texts from the Ugartic it is OBVIOUS that the Hebrews stem from there… there is much similarity between the Ugartic texts (and religious thought) and the early writings/archeaology too) of the Hebrews.. including the language.. it's nearly identical.  Before the Greeks were Greeks, so to say, but a collection of several peoples.. the Mycenaeans had a civilization there first…(which is somewhat concurrent with Babylonia). This preceded the dark age then the Syrians (Damascus is one of the oldest cities in the world) Ionians, and others began the settlements in the early archaic period, they were from outside of Greece, bringing that influence… especially from Phoenicia and other sea-faring peoples like the Minoans.

 

The archaeology places the Hebrews as slightly before the Greek archaic age, before the classical. Their relationship to the Canaanites is unmistakable…they are an offshoot of them - like the gypsy's (Roma) are offshoots of the Romanians. The linguistics are unmistakable, the art and architecture and pottery is nearly identical.. the syncretism of their theology, and it's evolution is obviously rooted in Canaanite pantheism, influenced by Mesopotamian, Egyptian (monotheism - a la Ahkenaten) and Persian thought… only later by Hellenistic thought.

 

Yahwehism, by the time of the captivity, is a war god cult…mainly by the Judeans - as the rest of Israel had been conquered and scattered... and they were shedding their polytheism (aka Asherah et al [elohim]) (see: Kuntillet 'Arjud, Israel - 800BCE) and strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism (dualism - not originally a Hebrew concept). The demigod concept (Jesus) now THAT is a pagan and Hellenistic concept. Much later though.

 

During rewritings later did some Greek influence happen, probably….(midrash seems rather Greek to me).  But it's NOT the source. The major rewriting of the Torah happened during the captivity in Babylon. We have over 3500 years of history/theology in the mideast.. where the Greeks only cover about 700 to 800 of those years before the common era.

 

Another thought… the major civilizations of the area, Mesopotamia/Persia in the north and Egypt in the south were constantly fighting over the area in the middle (Israel, Syria, Canaan, Jordan, etc..) in ploys for territory..back and forth, back and forth… for most of that 3500 years. Long before the Greeks or Romans even existed. The Merneptah Stele places the Hebrews(Israel) in Palestine in 1200 BCE… 500 years before the Archaic Greeks.

 

So… we see very ancient stories that have come from these other civilizations pop up in the Torah, in their various forms… and we are supposed to believe it was from the Greek? no. Do I believe the Torah is an historical document? no.. do I believe it is a collection of legend, oral tradition, myth and rewriting of theological thought from the Judeans written down during their captivity (588 BCE) and strongly influenced by the cultures around them and evolved over time? I also believe it was partly a political move by the Yahwists. Yes - for the most part I think this is the case.

The mycenaean greeks began to write in 1500 BCE. We don't really see hebrew until well after that. I know what you mean though. The influences mesopotamia had on greek mythology, largely came filtered through by the Hittites. We know this because of the parallels getting even more striking between the Hittite renditions of mesopotamian stories and what appears in, say, the Theogony.

[Ravenstar]

The Hittites were everywhere.. I had a discussion here a while back about the Hittite influence in ancient Egypt (something about scarabs). Hebrew is essentially (at the beginning) the same root as Phoenician (Canaanite) They are almost identical in very early script.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7700037.stm

 

 

 

 

 

*The entire thing with 'Japheth' is that the entire thing has been hijacked for several reasons. I think it's been abused over time. Sort of like how people find connections with the ancient middle east/northern India and the Celts, but no real evidence of their true origins.

[Joshpantera]

I posted this elsewhere, but Gmirkin's book about Berossus and the Babylonian King's list can provide an alternative to the DH: