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Goodbye Jesus

Help Me Debunk Supernatural


directionless

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I would be very careful about the concept of randomness. The "universe" appears to follow very specific rules. For example, you can look at the random particle motion known as Brownian motion. However, from this motion comes what we typically call non-random processes such as particles diffusing from areas of high to low concentration. With that said, I've seen nothing to compel me into believing a supernatural power set the whole thing off.

 

Regarding "quantum" and the "mind." We are still struggling to apply quantum mechanics to the chemical bonds that make up the molecules of cells and so on in the brain. We are a long way from understanding consciousness and what role quantum effects may play in cognition and consciousness.

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directionless; you suggest in your OP about a supernatural power controlling randomness. I'm assuming hypothetically speaking. The truth though is if there was a supernatural power controlling life as we know it, or the universe as we think we know it so far, there would be no randomness. At all.The fact that there is randomness means nothing is controlling it.That's my thought to it, anyway.

Thanks. That is sort of what I believe at times - that fate is guiding everything. It is probably partly due to being raised as a Christian. It's hard for me to accept things as "random" - especially if it feels like a synchronicity. Sometimes I think this reality is just a dream and the synchronicities are trying to help us remember ourselves before we fell asleep.

I understand and we've all been there. An easy way to view this is that all three Abrahamic faiths teach that there is Intelligent Design behind our universe and the origin of man. The Bible teaches this. If that were true, nothing would be random. Random is defined as having no designed pattern to it. Intelligent Design is the polar opposite of the concept of randomness.

 

But, one's faith can sometimes seem more real than science at times.

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Just watched the video...Even if that were not an April fools day prank...it would've proven more science than supernatural.

 

Hardy har.

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The idea that I should disbelieve this due to lack of evidence doesn't work for me.

 

You shouldn't DISBELIEVE anything due to lack of evidence, it just makes no sense to BELIEVE something without any evidence.  The alternative is to believe every bit of bullshit out there.  Where do you draw the line?  Those things that sound good or jive with you?  Those things that appear to be loosely based on evidence, but nothing that can be verified?  That's probably not the most effective way at getting at truth wouldn't you agree? 

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especially if it feels like a synchronicity

That's how our brains work. We seek patterns and context for everything. We will find it whether it's there or not.

 

That is true. I read a book "Hallucinations" by Oliver Sacks. The author argued that hallucinations arise when sensory inputs become absent or simply random. So elderly people begin hallucinating as their eyesight goes. The brain tries to find patterns where there is nothing.

 

 

You do it all the time too.  When you see shapes in clouds, it's your mind filling in the blanks in order to make sense of what is essentially just random. 

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directionless, it seems like your belief of the supernatural is largely tied to the Christian God. If a god should exist, how do we know he didn't just "allow" for randomness? That's the problem with religion, it is very cookie cutter in its opinions mainly because it can't control it's followers if they employed critical thinking.

 

That alone should cause you to view the idea of a supernatural power with a grain of salt. The versions that are out there are clearly inventions of man.

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I would be very careful about the concept of randomness. The "universe" appears to follow very specific rules. For example, you can look at the random particle motion known as Brownian motion. However, from this motion comes what we typically call non-random processes such as particles diffusing from areas of high to low concentration. With that said, I've seen nothing to compel me into believing a supernatural power set the whole thing off.

 

Regarding "quantum" and the "mind." We are still struggling to apply quantum mechanics to the chemical bonds that make up the molecules of cells and so on in the brain. We are a long way from understanding consciousness and what role quantum effects may play in cognition and consciousness.

Damn, Rogue!  Every time I read one of your posts I am reminded of just how ignorant I am.  The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.  I need that reminder sometimes.  Thanks, man.

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directionless, it seems like your belief of the supernatural is largely tied to the Christian God. If a god should exist, how do we know he didn't just "allow" for randomness? That's the problem with religion, it is very cookie cutter in its opinions mainly because it can't control it's followers if they employed critical thinking.

 

That alone should cause you to view the idea of a supernatural power with a grain of salt. The versions that are out there are clearly inventions of man.

You are right that Christian theology is a big factor. However, when I was more "spiritual" I sometimes worried that Christianity was somehow a trick to keep me from finding "the real" spiritual truth like Hinduism.

 

The critical thinking is important. My normal way of thinking is to day dream random possibilities and play-out scenarios in my mind until I find something that seems to work. I think this is why I had difficulty in the more advanced science and math classes. I am not a disciplined deductive reasoner.

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The idea that I should disbelieve this due to lack of evidence doesn't work for me.

 

You shouldn't DISBELIEVE anything due to lack of evidence, it just makes no sense to BELIEVE something without any evidence.  The alternative is to believe every bit of bullshit out there.  Where do you draw the line?  Those things that sound good or jive with you?  Those things that appear to be loosely based on evidence, but nothing that can be verified?  That's probably not the most effective way at getting at truth wouldn't you agree?

 

For me it's not a discrete choice between believe or disbelieve; it's informal probabilities that fluctuate depending on my mood and events. Some explanations eventually completely drop-off my list of possibilities, but I still have too many competing explanations and it makes life complicated.

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The idea that I should disbelieve this due to lack of evidence doesn't work for me.

 

You shouldn't DISBELIEVE anything due to lack of evidence, it just makes no sense to BELIEVE something without any evidence.  The alternative is to believe every bit of bullshit out there.  Where do you draw the line?  Those things that sound good or jive with you?  Those things that appear to be loosely based on evidence, but nothing that can be verified?  That's probably not the most effective way at getting at truth wouldn't you agree?

 

For me it's not a discrete choice between believe or disbelieve; it's informal probabilities that fluctuate depending on my mood and events. Some explanations eventually completely drop-off my list of possibilities, but I still have too many competing explanations and it makes life complicated.

 

 

You sound like a creative type that wants to be a logical type.  That can't be easy. :)

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I would be very careful about the concept of randomness. The "universe" appears to follow very specific rules. For example, you can look at the random particle motion known as Brownian motion. However, from this motion comes what we typically call non-random processes such as particles diffusing from areas of high to low concentration. With that said, I've seen nothing to compel me into believing a supernatural power set the whole thing off.

Regarding "quantum" and the "mind." We are still struggling to apply quantum mechanics to the chemical bonds that make up the molecules of cells and so on in the brain. We are a long way from understanding consciousness and what role quantum effects may play in cognition and consciousness.

 

Damn, Rogue!  Every time I read one of your posts I am reminded of just how ignorant I am.  The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.  I need that reminder sometimes.  Thanks, man.

Crazy isn't it? I was just reading a study the other day about education/experience and confidence in one's knowledge. It seems that when people have a superficial understanding/knowledge level they will rate themselves as being highly confident in their understanding. Then, in people who are well educated and experienced, these folks tend to be much less confident. The whole you don't know what you don't know.

 

The past few years have really put me in my place and I try to be very careful about admitting my ignorance when I'm aware. Partly out of intellectual honesty and party out of the fear of having somebody think I'm smarter than I really am. Particularly on a site like this where highly sceptical people are in their element.

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I would be very careful about the concept of randomness. The "universe" appears to follow very specific rules. For example, you can look at the random particle motion known as Brownian motion. However, from this motion comes what we typically call non-random processes such as particles diffusing from areas of high to low concentration. With that said, I've seen nothing to compel me into believing a supernatural power set the whole thing off.

 

Regarding "quantum" and the "mind." We are still struggling to apply quantum mechanics to the chemical bonds that make up the molecules of cells and so on in the brain. We are a long way from understanding consciousness and what role quantum effects may play in cognition and consciousness.

The Brownian motion is interesting, but I think it is the opposite of what I am talking about. The system of gas particles is not very sensitive to individual random behavior of gas particles.

 

I'm talking about the butterfly effect. You tweak one particle in a mentally unstable person's brain and you might produce radically different behavior at the macro level. So Zeus can tweak a few particles (being careful not to violate any conservation laws) and presto we have an oracle.

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One practical option regarding the weekend might be to cancel with some excuse, so he doesn't think you're being rude to him.  It sounds like having him around might trigger unpleasant feelings in you.  You are allowed to change your mind about him being there.  Your wellbeing is important.

I was able to avoid his visit last year with an excuse, but this time he caught me off-guard and I said yes. He has already bought his airplane tickets and motel, and he has bought other tickets that depend on these tickets. So I feel like I need to do this if I possibly can.

 

I was hoping these suspicions were gone, but I noticed them becoming very strong a couple of days ago. I kept trying to imagine all the ways he might drug me and ways I might prevent that. All the time I became more and more angry that I must pretend everything is normal when I have these suspicions.

 

I suppose I should see a therapist, but it's an embarrassing problem to discuss.

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I think I have been getting side-tracked from my goal which is to find a way to prove that supernatural is not possible.

 

Part of my concerns are magic, and I have considered joining a forum for neo-pagans who often believe in magic. If I discovered that their experience of magic is different from my experience, then it might help me accept that I was having hallucinations. But even then, I could suspect that they were simply ignorant or concealing their secrets with misinformation.

 

I'm running out of ideas.

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I would be very careful about the concept of randomness. The "universe" appears to follow very specific rules. For example, you can look at the random particle motion known as Brownian motion. However, from this motion comes what we typically call non-random processes such as particles diffusing from areas of high to low concentration. With that said, I've seen nothing to compel me into believing a supernatural power set the whole thing off.

 

Regarding "quantum" and the "mind." We are still struggling to apply quantum mechanics to the chemical bonds that make up the molecules of cells and so on in the brain. We are a long way from understanding consciousness and what role quantum effects may play in cognition and consciousness.

The Brownian motion is interesting, but I think it is the opposite of what I am talking about. The system of gas particles is not very sensitive to individual random behavior of gas particles.

 

I'm talking about the butterfly effect. You tweak one particle in a mentally unstable person's brain and you might produce radically different behavior at the macro level. So Zeus can tweak a few particles (being careful not to violate any conservation laws) and presto we have an oracle.

That involves significant presupposition. Again, we don't fully understand cognition and consciousness. However, I can say something about how neurons work and how significantly my understanding of neuron function has changed.

 

Your particle here and there hypothesis may have weight if we go back to the 90's when I was learning about the all or nothing nature of how neurone fire. It may be convenient to make a model where just a single ion could cause a neuron to fire. What I now know is that neurons are a tangled, interconnected mess. A single neuron is being constantly bombarded with inhibitory and excitatory signals. The concept of temporal summation is used to describe this process. It's basically the sum of the excitatory and inhibitory signals over time that count. However, neurons also have ion channels that can respond to changes in ion concentrations around the neuron. These so called voltage gated ion channels can play an important role and they may not be acted on by neurotransmitters from other neurons. Also, conductive tissue like neurons can have naturally "leaky" ion channels that can cause cells to automatically fire. Then you have to consider how well a signal is conducted. Suffice it to say, it's more complicated than bumping a particle here or there.

 

Finally, when you "bump" a particle, you interact with it. If god were to interact with ions in nerve cells, we should be able to detect these interactions and they would produce phenomena that stand out against the background "noise." You wouldn't believe what we are capable of detecting. I can grow a nerve cell, have it contain vesicles of neurotransmitter, insert a tiny probe into the cell and measure how many molecules of transmitter is released. For example, an enzyme MAO helps to metabolise the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT). A single molecule of serotonin "liberates" either two or four electrons. I believe two but I'd have to look it up. We can actually measure the current producer by these two electrons. However, we've yet to observe gods hand in interacting with these electrons.

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Finally, when you "bump" a particle, you interact with it. If god were to interact with ions in nerve cells, we should be able to detect these interactions and they would produce phenomena that stand out against the background "noise." You wouldn't believe what we are capable of detecting. I can grow a nerve cell, have it contain vesicles of neurotransmitter, insert a tiny probe into the cell and measure how many molecules of transmitter is released. For example, an enzyme MAO helps to metabolise the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT). A single molecule of serotonin "liberates" either two or four electrons. I believe two but I'd have to look it up. We can actually measure the current producer by these two electrons. However, we've yet to observe gods hand in interacting with these electrons.

That is good information about neurons.

 

My theory is that God simply causes a probability wave to collapse into a particular observation, so this tweaking would appear to be random to science.

 

What would be the constraints if God chose to control the collapse of these probability waves? I assume that if scientists could guess God's goals and observe random events working towards those goals then they might become suspicious that God is involved?

 

I haven't found a good way of thinking about this problem yet. It confuses me. Maybe if I understood QM, I would see how this would work or not work.

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No personal attack meant here:

 

How well do you understand quantum mechanics? Are you versed in wave mechanics and differential equations? Do you know where these "probability waves" come from? Can you even setup a simple harmonic oscillator with an infinite square well and solve the Schrodinger equation under these highly idealised boundary conditions?

 

If not, you don't even understand this stuff as well as the best minds of the 1920's. If this is the case, you need to strongly consider conceding ignorance and refrain from jumping to completely unfounded god hypotheses. I have to admit ignorance of something on almost a daily basis.

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One practical option regarding the weekend might be to cancel with some excuse, so he doesn't think you're being rude to him.  It sounds like having him around might trigger unpleasant feelings in you.  You are allowed to change your mind about him being there.  Your wellbeing is important.

I was able to avoid his visit last year with an excuse, but this time he caught me off-guard and I said yes. He has already bought his airplane tickets and motel, and he has bought other tickets that depend on these tickets. So I feel like I need to do this if I possibly can.

 

I was hoping these suspicions were gone, but I noticed them becoming very strong a couple of days ago. I kept trying to imagine all the ways he might drug me and ways I might prevent that. All the time I became more and more angry that I must pretend everything is normal when I have these suspicions.

 

I suppose I should see a therapist, but it's an embarrassing problem to discuss.

 

 

I guess when a problem becomes troublesome enough to outweigh any embarrassment we feel, we become prepared to ask for help.  I'm sure the therapist has heard of similar feelings from many patients before and they would not think any less of you.  A therapist can help you use practical strategies to get through the weekend.  You might learn valuable insights from the experience that help you in the future.

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Finally, when you "bump" a particle, you interact with it. If god were to interact with ions in nerve cells, we should be able to detect these interactions and they would produce phenomena that stand out against the background "noise." You wouldn't believe what we are capable of detecting. I can grow a nerve cell, have it contain vesicles of neurotransmitter, insert a tiny probe into the cell and measure how many molecules of transmitter is released. For example, an enzyme MAO helps to metabolise the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT). A single molecule of serotonin "liberates" either two or four electrons. I believe two but I'd have to look it up. We can actually measure the current producer by these two electrons. However, we've yet to observe gods hand in interacting with these electrons.

That is good information about neurons.

 

My theory is that God simply causes a probability wave to collapse into a particular observation, so this tweaking would appear to be random to science.

 

What would be the constraints if God chose to control the collapse of these probability waves? I assume that if scientists could guess God's goals and observe random events working towards those goals then they might become suspicious that God is involved?

 

I haven't found a good way of thinking about this problem yet. It confuses me. Maybe if I understood QM, I would see how this would work or not work.

 

directionless--your thread here reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

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No personal attack meant here:

 

How well do you understand quantum mechanics? Are you versed in wave mechanics and differential equations? Do you know where these "probability waves" come from? Can you even setup a simple harmonic oscillator with an infinite square well and solve the Schrodinger equation under these highly idealised boundary conditions?

 

If not, you don't even understand this stuff as well as the best minds of the 1920's. If this is the case, you need to strongly consider conceding ignorance and refrain from jumping to completely unfounded god hypotheses. I have to admit ignorance of something on almost a daily basis.

I was a physics major for my first two years at college, so I was exposed to QM and differential equations. I felt uncomfortable with both those topics, but I got A's in my classes somehow. Then I became depressed and had to focus on simply graduating with an easier major. So that was a disappointment for me, because I liked physics.

 

That was late 80's so even the introductory knowledge that I had is mostly gone now.

 

I have no problem conceding ignorance, but the idea is too important to me to simply drop for that reason. I'm trying to understand things I experienced that bother me. Psychosis or psychosis plus supernatural - that is the question for me. smile.png

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One practical option regarding the weekend might be to cancel with some excuse, so he doesn't think you're being rude to him.  It sounds like having him around might trigger unpleasant feelings in you.  You are allowed to change your mind about him being there.  Your wellbeing is important.

I was able to avoid his visit last year with an excuse, but this time he caught me off-guard and I said yes. He has already bought his airplane tickets and motel, and he has bought other tickets that depend on these tickets. So I feel like I need to do this if I possibly can.

 

I was hoping these suspicions were gone, but I noticed them becoming very strong a couple of days ago. I kept trying to imagine all the ways he might drug me and ways I might prevent that. All the time I became more and more angry that I must pretend everything is normal when I have these suspicions.

 

I suppose I should see a therapist, but it's an embarrassing problem to discuss.

 

 

I guess when a problem becomes troublesome enough to outweigh any embarrassment we feel, we become prepared to ask for help.  I'm sure the therapist has heard of similar feelings from many patients before and they would not think any less of you.  A therapist can help you use practical strategies to get through the weekend.  You might learn valuable insights from the experience that help you in the future.

 

That sounds like good advice, but I was seeing a therapist a few years ago and had bad luck. I mentioned some of these suspicions to her and her attitude changed dramatically (we were originally talking about another problem). But maybe I will have better luck with a different therapist. smile.png

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No personal attack meant here:

 

How well do you understand quantum mechanics? Are you versed in wave mechanics and differential equations? Do you know where these "probability waves" come from? Can you even setup a simple harmonic oscillator with an infinite square well and solve the Schrodinger equation under these highly idealised boundary conditions?

 

If not, you don't even understand this stuff as well as the best minds of the 1920's. If this is the case, you need to strongly consider conceding ignorance and refrain from jumping to completely unfounded god hypotheses. I have to admit ignorance of something on almost a daily basis.

I was a physics major for my first two years at college, so I was exposed to QM and differential equations. I felt uncomfortable with both those topics, but I got A's in my classes somehow. Then I became depressed and had to focus on simply graduating with an easier major. So that was a disappointment for me, because I liked physics.

 

That was late 80's so even the introductory knowledge that I had is mostly gone now.

 

I have no problem conceding ignorance, but the idea is too important to me to simply drop for that reason. I'm trying to understand things I experienced that bother me. Psychosis or psychosis plus supernatural - that is the question for me. smile.png

 

 

For me, the difference between psychosis and the supernatural is that one is a clinical condition and the other is an unproven claim.  One of the defining characteristics of psychosis is belief in the supernatural, in a way that causes distress.  Doctors can treat psychosis and to a large extent reduce the belief in the supernatural and the associated distress.

 

 

 

 

One practical option regarding the weekend might be to cancel with some excuse, so he doesn't think you're being rude to him.  It sounds like having him around might trigger unpleasant feelings in you.  You are allowed to change your mind about him being there.  Your wellbeing is important.

I was able to avoid his visit last year with an excuse, but this time he caught me off-guard and I said yes. He has already bought his airplane tickets and motel, and he has bought other tickets that depend on these tickets. So I feel like I need to do this if I possibly can.

 

I was hoping these suspicions were gone, but I noticed them becoming very strong a couple of days ago. I kept trying to imagine all the ways he might drug me and ways I might prevent that. All the time I became more and more angry that I must pretend everything is normal when I have these suspicions.

 

I suppose I should see a therapist, but it's an embarrassing problem to discuss.

 

 

I guess when a problem becomes troublesome enough to outweigh any embarrassment we feel, we become prepared to ask for help.  I'm sure the therapist has heard of similar feelings from many patients before and they would not think any less of you.  A therapist can help you use practical strategies to get through the weekend.  You might learn valuable insights from the experience that help you in the future.

 

That sounds like good advice, but I was seeing a therapist a few years ago and had bad luck. I mentioned some of these suspicions to her and her attitude changed dramatically (we were originally talking about another problem). But maybe I will have better luck with a different therapist. smile.png

 

 

I think it's worth a try.  Some therapists are not competent.  A second opinion is always worth considering.

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directionless--your thread here reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

I never thought of that before, but that's almost exactly what I'm doing. The only difference is that "God of the gaps" is based on gaps that might someday be filled by science. My understanding is that the randomness in QM is a gap that is a fundamental feature of reality, so it works better than other gaps.

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You need to explain the QM randomness. Why do you need to invoke the supernatural?

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For me, the difference between psychosis and the supernatural is that one is a clinical condition and the other is an unproven claim.  One of the defining characteristics of psychosis is belief in the supernatural, in a way that causes distress.  Doctors can treat psychosis and to a large extent reduce the belief in the supernatural and the associated distress.

I can relate to believing in the supernatural in a way that causes distress. After one particularly bizarre experience I remember spending every evening for weeks staring at the wall trying to decide if God was actually Satan and Satan was actually God, because I was so confused. It seemed like these experiences contained important guidance that I had to respond to in order to become enlightened, but I knew I would fail the opportunity and be punished for not listening to the truth that was hidden inside the misinformation. I suspected that Christianity was a trick, but I was afraid to leave it. It was stressful.

 

I think it's worth a try.  Some therapists are not competent.  A second opinion is always worth considering.

I think I will give that a try. Maybe I will look for a secular therapist. Spirituality seems to be very fashionable in psychology right now, and I would rather have an overtly atheist therapist that will shake some sense into me. smile.png

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