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Women In The Ministry And Teachings Of Jesus


ironhorse

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Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

 

1. Throughout his ministry Jesus talked to women and engaged them in conversation. This was

in stark contrast to first century Judaism thought and practice.  The religious leaders did not view women as equals to men. Women were considered subordinate and inferior to men in religion and society. 

 

The religious leaders were so afraid of even looking at women in the street in fear of conversation or having "lust" enter

their heads that they would often walk across the street to avoid contact with women or close their eyes when one 

passed by.

 

The common people called them the "the Bloody Nosed Pharisees" because they often bumped into a wall or post with

their eyes shut.

 

Sources please.

 

 

I assume you mean what you placed in bold.

 

I first of heard of this expression in a class during a lecture by a New Testament

professor. 

 

If you need more verification:

http://www.studylight.org/language-studies/difficult-sayings/index.cgi?a=489

 

"The Pharisees are a modern byword for nitpicking hypocritical killjoys. They have a semi-deserved reputation which they even accepted themselves with the rabbis making jokes about the seven types of Pharisee including the satirically described "bloody nosed Pharisee", who in his desire to avoid sinning and just looking at a woman improperly (Matthew 5:28) bashes his nose against a wall!"

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Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

 

1. Throughout his ministry Jesus talked to women and engaged them in conversation. This was

in stark contrast to first century Judaism thought and practice.  The religious leaders did not view women as equals to men. Women were considered subordinate and inferior to men in religion and society. 

 

The religious leaders were so afraid of even looking at women in the street in fear of conversation or having "lust" enter

their heads that they would often walk across the street to avoid contact with women or close their eyes when one 

passed by.

 

The common people called them the "the Bloody Nosed Pharisees" because they often bumped into a wall or post with

their eyes shut.

 

Sources please.

 

 

I assume you mean what you placed in bold.

 

I first of heard of this expression in a class during a lecture by a New Testament

professor. 

 

If you need more verification:

http://www.studylight.org/language-studies/difficult-sayings/index.cgi?a=489

 

"The Pharisees are a modern byword for nitpicking hypocritical killjoys. They have a semi-deserved reputation which they even accepted themselves with the rabbis making jokes about the seven types of Pharisee including the satirically described "bloody nosed Pharisee", who in his desire to avoid sinning and just looking at a woman improperly (Matthew 5:28) bashes his nose against a wall!"

 

 

Nowhere in your linked article does it state Pharisees bumped into walls or posts because they often walked around with their eyes shut. The entire premise of the article, starting with the title, is comparing the doctrine of Pharisees to leavening in bread. 

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So because Jesus was slightly less misogynistic than some Pharisees, that makes Christianity not sexist at all? Bullshit.

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Once this specific topic is discussed at length, we can do future post threads on women in

the Old Testament, the early church and in Paul's ministry and teachings.

 

I'm so excited I peed myself.

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  • Super Moderator

 

 

Once this specific topic is discussed at length, we can do future post threads on women in

the Old Testament, the early church and in Paul's ministry and teachings.

 

I'm so excited I peed myself.

 

Bless your heart.

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Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

1. Throughout his ministry Jesus talked to women and engaged them in conversation. This was
in stark contrast to first century Judaism thought and practice.  The religious leaders did not view women as equals to men. Women were considered subordinate and inferior to men in religion and society.

The religious leaders were so afraid of even looking at women in the street in fear of conversation or having "lust" enter
their heads that they would often walk across the street to avoid contact with women or close their eyes when one
passed by.

The common people called them the "the Bloody Nosed Pharisees" because they often bumped into a wall or post with
their eyes shut.

 

 

2. Jesus asserted that a woman could divorce her husband; the Rabbi's said only a man could initiate divorce. "Thus far it should be clear that divorce was always the right and responsibility of the husband to initiate. Jewish law was asymmetrical in this respect, as opposed to Roman law, which grants the wife the right to divorce her husband.") ~Jewish Women in Greco-Roman Palestine, Tal Ilan, Hendrickson:1995.

 

Concerning the reasons for divorce:

 

from:BeliefNet

 

"A few decades before Jesus was born, the two most famous rabbis, Hillel and Shammai, debated the interpretation of Deuteronomy 24. Hillel noted the text said a man could divorce his wife for "a cause of sexual immorality." Since rabbis believed that every word in Scripture was there for a reason, Hillel decided that this word "cause" must refer to another ground for divorce besides sexual immorality: any cause.

 

Hillel believed a man could leave his wife for any reason: wearing her hair unbound, burning the toast, or renting two consecutive chick flicks from Blockbuster. Shammai, on the other hand, thought that Deut. 24 only referred to sexual immorality, and that this "any cause" divorce was wrong.

 

Hillel's "any cause" divorce was popular among Jewish men. It was much easier to get, though more expensive. It is almost certainly what Joseph was thinking of when he considered divorcing Mary "quietly" in Matthew 1:19—"quietly" being a technical term. He would graciously refuse to charge her with her infidelity, and get an "any cause" divorce even though he’d still have to pay the bridal inheritance.

 

When Jesus mentions divorce in the Gospels, he is articulating his position on the Shammai/Hillel debate. He is not talking about the legitimacy of divorce in general. No rabbi would have asked, "Is it ever lawful for someone to divorce?"—it would have been like asking, "Is it ever lawful to do what Moses said in the law?" (Imagine someone in our day asking, "Do you think it's okay for a sixteen-year-old to drink?" We would know they meant "drink alcohol," but someone from another culture might need this spelled out. Likewise, we need Jesus divorce context spelled out for us, but his original hearers understood the Hillel-Shammai "any cause" debate.)

 

Jesus sided with Shammai on the interpretation of Deuteronomy 24:1. But Jesus and Paul (and Shammai for that matter) would have shared the rabbinic understanding that divorce is regrettable but permissible when the vow of fidelity, provision, or love has been broken and there is no repentance. This would include abuse and abandonment."

 

Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Love-Family/Relationships/2007/06/Let-There-Be-Divorce.aspx?p=2#uJcsxtBR2XfWzFwI.99

 

That is my view of what Jesus taught concerning divorce. I believe that this also includes immorality, abuse, neglect, refusing support, withholding physical intimacy, and abandonment.

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2. Jesus asserted that a woman could divorce her husband; the Rabbi's said only a man could initiate divorce. "Thus far it should be clear that divorce was always the right and responsibility of the husband to initiate. Jewish law was asymmetrical in this respect, as opposed to Roman law, which grants the wife the right to divorce her husband.") ~Jewish Women in Greco-Roman Palestine, Tal Ilan, Hendrickson:1995.

 

 

Where does Jesus assert that a woman could divorce her husband?

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And Jesus called another woman a dog. Can't be bothered to dig up the verse, but it's in there.

 

I seem to recall one of the Christians here trying to claim that the translation for "dog" was misleading, and that it was actually a term of endearment. That's a stupid position to take. Don't bother trying it.

Yes, I think that was Thumbelina. She hasn't been on here in a while.

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The Egyptians had MUCH better views towards women than the Hebrews did (or even the Greeks). Sorry, it's true. They even had fair laws for them in divorce and property ownership.

 

The Bible's treatment of women is misogynistic and abhorrent. They even killed off their mother goddess.

 

I'm inclined to believe Jesus had a wife anyway… as Rabbi's are supposed to be married.

 

Oh!  The Bible is very clear on remarriage after divorce. It is a HUGE no-no.   Funny, I don't see that in the christian community (except with SDA's and JW's.. and Catholicism - but they found creative ways around that  lol).

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2. Jesus asserted that a woman could divorce her husband; the Rabbi's said only a man could initiate divorce. "Thus far it should be clear that divorce was always the right and responsibility of the husband to initiate. Jewish law was asymmetrical in this respect, as opposed to Roman law, which grants the wife the right to divorce her husband.") ~Jewish Women in Greco-Roman Palestine, Tal Ilan, Hendrickson:1995.

 

 

Where does Jesus assert that a woman could divorce her husband?

 

 

 

"And he saith unto them: Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." ~ Mark 10: 11-12 

 

The other situations I posted show that divorce and remarriage are permitted without the remarriage being considered adultery. 

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ummm…. no

 

It's clear that remarriage unless you are widowed is forbidden.

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2. Jesus asserted that a woman could divorce her husband; the Rabbi's said only a man could initiate divorce. "Thus far it should be clear that divorce was always the right and responsibility of the husband to initiate. Jewish law was asymmetrical in this respect, as opposed to Roman law, which grants the wife the right to divorce her husband.") ~Jewish Women in Greco-Roman Palestine, Tal Ilan, Hendrickson:1995.

 

Where does Jesus assert that a woman could divorce her husband?

 

"And he saith unto them: Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." ~ Mark 10: 11-12

 

The other situations I posted show that divorce and remarriage are permitted without the remarriage being considered adultery.

and if the woman get caught for adultery, get stoned to death, same as man?

 

and if man commits adultery, it is against the wife,,,,

 

if woman commits adultery, it is ADULTERY,,,, wow

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Here's a relevant, multiple-choice question for you, Ironhorse.

 

"Why do you agree with what Jesus has to say about the topic of this thread? "

 

A.

Because he said it and by definition it must therefore be true, good and right - and you agree with what's true, good and right.

B.

Because he's your God and you should agree with Him (by faith), even if you don't understand why.

C.

Because you've questioned everything he said (as your parents taught you to do) and you now have a coherent, rational and reasoned understanding of his words - one that doesn't require you to take anything he said on faith.

D.

Another reason. (Please specify.)

.

.

.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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The other situations I posted show that divorce and remarriage are permitted without the remarriage being considered adultery. 

 

I never found the teachings of Jesus to be clear on divorce.

There are three stances on divorce according to Jesus, and they do not clarify the issue to any great degree.

  • Position 1-

    No divorce is allowed at any time. (Mark 10:9, Matt 19:6)

  • Position 2-

    Divorce seems to be allowed but remarriage is adultery.

    Marrying a divorced woman is also adultery. (Luke 16:18, Mark 10;11-12)

  • Position 3-

    Divorce seems to be allowed but only on grounds of fornication.

    Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9

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I think it's pretty amusing that this thread has "women in ministry" as part if the title, since most Christian denominations won't accept women as clergy. That alone tells us about how ineffective Jesus was with his supposed teachings.

 

What do you think, IH? Are women able to be ordained for ministry, according to Jesus? Or do the majority of christians have it right in disqualifying half the human race from church leadership based solely on gender?

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They always want to have their cake and it too. If Jesus wanted women to be ministers, then all of the churches have been teaching a false anti-christ religion for 2,000 years, and therefore have zero credibility. 

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I've heard whole sermons on that topic and they all made sense while in the club still where I was used to that sexist mentality that Christianity provides...even though the Church I went to has been more advanced when it came to women in ministry. They had women leading ministries and preaching...but no woman in the leading team. And most of them where married...to a husband who too was involved in ministry...Why? Ah...yeah, women in ministry are dangerous...or something like that.

 

Being out of it all I can see more clear how misogynistic it all is. How I had not been able to explore my personality due to the standards they had about women.

Just now I am getting more confident and comfortable with not being married and having children, knowing I am a complete human being that can be on her own and not in NEED of a man (and that does not mean I don't want one, just not desperate to find one, not being held back to find a life by not having one). That it is OK to think of a man as an equal even as a partner...That I am no less than a married woman...that I am just as valuable as a man and have the right to pursue my dreams and my own happiness.

 

If Jesus was so extraordinary and all in this, why would he not tell those people who seek him and who supposedly hear from him...why did he not tell me? Why did I have to become atheist in order to find freedom and a new understanding of being a woman?

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Here's a relevant, multiple-choice question for you, Ironhorse.

 

"Why do you agree with what Jesus has to say about the topic of this thread? "

 

A.

Because he said it and by definition it must therefore be true, good and right - and you agree with what's true, good and right.

B.

Because he's your God and you should agree with Him (by faith), even if you don't understand why.

C.

Because you've questioned everything he said (as your parents taught you to do) and you now have a coherent, rational and reasoned understanding of his words - one that doesn't require you to take anything he said on faith.

D.

Another reason. (Please specify.)

.

.

.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Ironhorse,

 

You've given your promise to answer the questions put to you, so if you keep dodging them we'll be forced to conclude that your promises to us mean nothing.

 

Your faithful and truthful defense of Christianity doesn't only hang on who you quote, which vids you post or how many times you write, "I believe".  It also hangs on how you conduct yourself... that's the spiritual fruit we see from you.  Or in the case of dodging questions, that's the spiritual fruit of faithfulness we don't see from you.

 

Your silence is deafening, your promises are broken and your witness to Christ...?

 

BAA

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Here's a relevant, multiple-choice question for you, Ironhorse.

 

"Why do you agree with what Jesus has to say about the topic of this thread? "

 

A.

Because he said it and by definition it must therefore be true, good and right - and you agree with what's true, good and right.

B.

Because he's your God and you should agree with Him (by faith), even if you don't understand why.

C.

Because you've questioned everything he said (as your parents taught you to do) and you now have a coherent, rational and reasoned understanding of his words - one that doesn't require you to take anything he said on faith.

D.

Another reason. (Please specify.)

.

.

.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Ironhorse,

 

You've given your promise to answer the questions put to you, so if you keep dodging them we'll be forced to conclude that your promises to us mean nothing.

 

Your faithful and truthful defense of Christianity doesn't only hang on who you quote, which vids you post or how many times you write, "I believe".  It also hangs on how you conduct yourself... that's the spiritual fruit we see from you.  Or in the case of dodging questions, that's the spiritual fruit of faithfulness we don't see from you.

 

Your silence is deafening, your promises are broken and your witness to Christ...?

 

BAA

 

 

For D: I checked all of the above.

 

A. Yes I do. The truth will set you free.

 

B. I believe he is"my god" but he is the only God. I have stated before there are many things I

do not know or understand about God. The mysteries of God makes the journey a grand adventure to me.

 

C. Again, I have stated before, I did go through a period in my late teens and twenties when I did

 a lot of questioning and study of Christianity and other religions. I was searching for the truth. I decided that only the Christian

message and faith made sense of life and this world. 

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I like cheese. Can we talk about cheese? It actually exists.

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I think it's pretty amusing that this thread has "women in ministry" as part if the title, since most Christian denominations won't accept women as clergy. That alone tells us about how ineffective Jesus was with his supposed teachings.

 

What do you think, IH? Are women able to be ordained for ministry, according to Jesus? Or do the majority of christians have it right in disqualifying half the human race from church leadership based solely on gender?

I attend a local Baptist church. I agree with the position of the Priesthood of

the believer and the other historic Baptists positions on

the major doctrines of the faith. These major doctrines deal with God, Jesus and Salvation

as revealed in the scriptures.

 

Minor Doctrines are teachings that Christians often view with different interpretations and importance.

For example: My brother-in-law is a Methodist pastor. They sprinkle instead of immerse for baptism.

We disagree, but it is not an issue of contention with us.

 

The other category is Personal / Cultural beliefs: An American Baptist in Georgia may view drinking

a beer as a sin. A German Baptist may not hold the same view. Again, no problem with me. Style of

music also falls into this category. 

 

Should women be pastors, I think, is a Minor Doctrine. Like the mode of baptism, there are different views.

I have christian family members and friends on opposite sides of this issue but it's not something we

bang heads together about. It's a non-issue.

 

My view is this: In the New Testament women have the same privileges and opportunities as men.

 

“In Christ now there is neither bond nor free, Scythian nor Barbarian, male nor female; all are one in Christ Jesus.”

~Galatians 3:28

 

In the Book of Acts Philip had three daughters who were preachers.

 

Paul in his letter to the Romans alludes to two people, Andronicus and Junia. Junia is a woman. And then, he refers to them as “fellow apostles,” which in the life of the early church was the highest position attainable in leadership and in preaching.

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Should women be pastors, I think, is a Minor Doctrine. Like the mode of baptism, there are different views.

I have christian family members and friends on opposite sides of this issue but it's not something we

bang heads together about. It's a non-issue.

 

So, the rampant sexism of your family and friends is minor and a non-issue for you.  Good to know where you stand.

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Again, I have stated before, I did go through a period in my late teens and twenties when I did

 a lot of questioning and study of Christianity and other religions. I was searching for the truth.

 

 

Lying to yourself is cowardly.

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Should women be pastors, I think, is a Minor Doctrine. Like the mode of baptism, there are different views.

I have christian family members and friends on opposite sides of this issue but it's not something we

bang heads together about. It's a non-issue.

So, the rampant sexism of your family and friends is minor and a non-issue for you. Good to know where you stand.

Exactly!

 

It's a minor doctrine? That's convenient. Means you can dismiss me and other women who had ambitions to be in ministry without too much thought. Just need to quote 1st Corinthians 14:34 where it tells women to keep quiet in church, give a little shrug, and write off half the population.

 

How can you possibly say that women are valued and have the same opportunities as men when you don't think it's even worth serious discussion amongst other believers? You didn't even clearly state your own position. You danced around it with comparisons to other church teachings.

 

I interpret it to mean you think women can be clergy, but it's a very luke warm endorsement of my gender.

 

If you think women should have equal opportunity and privelage according to Jesus and the NT, why be so whishy washy? Would you please stand up for me and my sisters who are still trapped in the church? This is a soul killing doctrine, and it makes me burn with rage to see it dismissed lightly or skirted to avoid offense.

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Here's a relevant, multiple-choice question for you, Ironhorse.

 

"Why do you agree with what Jesus has to say about the topic of this thread? "

 

A.

Because he said it and by definition it must therefore be true, good and right - and you agree with what's true, good and right.

B.

Because he's your God and you should agree with Him (by faith), even if you don't understand why.

C.

Because you've questioned everything he said (as your parents taught you to do) and you now have a coherent, rational and reasoned understanding of his words - one that doesn't require you to take anything he said on faith.

D.

Another reason. (Please specify.)

.

.

.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Ironhorse,

 

You've given your promise to answer the questions put to you, so if you keep dodging them we'll be forced to conclude that your promises to us mean nothing.

 

Your faithful and truthful defense of Christianity doesn't only hang on who you quote, which vids you post or how many times you write, "I believe".  It also hangs on how you conduct yourself... that's the spiritual fruit we see from you.  Or in the case of dodging questions, that's the spiritual fruit of faithfulness we don't see from you.

 

Your silence is deafening, your promises are broken and your witness to Christ...?

 

BAA

 

 

For D: I checked all of the above.

 

A. Yes I do. The truth will set you free.

 

B. I believe he is"my god" but he is the only God. I have stated before there are many things I

do not know or understand about God. The mysteries of God makes the journey a grand adventure to me.

 

C. Again, I have stated before, I did go through a period in my late teens and twenties when I did

 a lot of questioning and study of Christianity and other religions. I was searching for the truth. I decided that only the Christian

message and faith made sense of life and this world.

 

I've said this before, at least twice. Didn't get an answer.

 

Why are your mental/emotional states of any relevance to anyone else, Ironhorse? You have your questions, your things you can't answer, your beliefs. I have mine.

 

Why should we care about any of your posts except to the extent that we might be interested in your autobiography?

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