Exploring Buddhism

[Antlerman]

Hi Antlerman,

 

Thanks for your response here.

 

I will touch on enlightenment, first since you asked. I've read into it, and while we can view it I suppose how we wish, it seems at its root to be somewhat theistic. Even though worshipping "God" is not a part of it, the idea at least behind enlightenment, to the best of my understanding, is to set a person apart from the "unenlightened," so to speak.

I appreciate your response. It's kind of as I was wondering, which expresses what was behind what caught me off guard in my recent encounter in a group for former fundamentalists I'm part of. It appears viewed within this modern organized Christian context of hierarchies and power over others, "more spiritual", competitions and whatnot. I personally don't read it that way at all, and the only 'competition' is with ones own self. It's not about trying to be better than others at all. And in fact, the very second someone makes it an ego thing, is the very second they exactly not moving beyond ego. The whole thing of self-comparison with others is driven by ego-compensation. The focus is completely in the wrong place.

 

In fact, the more aware of our own nature we are beyond ego-building exercises, the more free we are to simply be genuine. I had said to that woman who said she didn't like the word enlightenment, which I suspect was for much the same reasons, that perhaps a better term if that has somehow acquired a negative connotation would be to call it finding our "authentic self". To me that is exactly what it is. It's not about the ego at all, which is about trying to define ourselves through self-reflexive thought, like the old saying goes, "We are not who we think we are, and we're not who others think we are, but we are who we think others think we are".

 

That's what ego is. But there comes a point for an individual where we 'wake up', so to speak and see all that for what it is and get in touch with ourselves beyond simple self-reflexive thought. It's a state of awareness of our being 'beyond' and 'before' the ego. It is a condition of our being, not an idea of ourselves. It's something every single person already is, without exception, so their is no attainment, no achievement, no accomplishment, and no 'better than' hierarchies. It's just simply a matter of learning to live in that condition as one in which we are untangled from the mess of our self-reflexive ego-minds. It's like Maslow's "self-actualization". So I like 'authentic self' or 'actual self' better perhaps as way to understand "enlightenment' in that sense.

 

So honestly, I'm not sure how this can be understood as theistic? Theism places "God" wholly outside oneself, always perpetuating a dualistic separation of the self from the world. What I described above fully connects oneself with everything and everyone, in that it sees and knows oneself prior to and beyond comparisons with others, which would include comparisons with "God, as well in any theistic sense.

 

I don't like that, tbh. It reminds me of "holiness" in Christianity and if only we can strive for this or that virtue, our lives will have higher purpose or meaning. Buddhism practiced in the west tempers that down.

One thing to bear in mind though, is that in any system of religious thought, how individuals understand and interpret the teachings of those who are the 'masters', is really going to be happening within the framework of their current stages of growth. You have fundamentalists in Buddhism and Hinduism and all other religions, just as you do in Christianity. That doesn't mean "Buddhism" is all about what you see them interpreting it as. I know several Tibetan Buddhist nuns, monks, and practitioners, and though I respect the core of their practices, in no way do I see them as "having the answer", and in fact I very clearly have different points of view than they do about the importance of certain things. That's simply a matter of where each of us are at in our individual understandings. It's no 'better than' thing, but really more a matter of 'appropriate' to where we are at in our integration of these things.

 

Many need it to be an 'external' authority, because it hasn't become an internal reality for them. Boy, oh boy, is that true in Christianity! But even there, this same thing holds true. There are those in that system that "get it" too, and often end up being killed for it. When a hierarchical structure tries to maintain itself, not without good reason though in order to preserve itself as a system, it can tragically end up cutting out the deepest realizers of that lineage because at that point of realization, the whole need for structures and hierarchies falls apart. They become seen as a threat to the structure, for those who see the structure as the end in itself.

 

The irony is, that it was those who were "enlightened", that started the whole impetus in others to create a structure around them and their teachings, which then dumbs down and replaces the teacher with the system, can end up excluding those who become like the teacher themselves. They would end up rejecting their own founder! It's just kind of the nature of it in certain hierarchical structures. They resist modification. That's why in a real sense, a lineage is good to expose someone to the basics, but it should never be taken as "the way". That entirely resides within each individual.

 

I don't want any part of theism and "enlightenment," has that theistic feel to it.

What is this 'theistic feel' you mention? An external authority?

 

This is to the best of my understanding, but maybe I'm way off base. Lol

Not at all. It's how you see things, which is what I'm curious to understand for myself.

[Orbit]

I would add, or rather emphasize, that "enlightenment" is better portrayed as "awakening" to the true nature of life and one's embeddedness in it. In this sense, it is more like "realization" of one's place in the universe. Enlightenment isn't like righteousness, where people are in a contest over it. Enlightenment is the moment when you wake up and see yourself as part of the universe and not separate from it.

[florduh]

The great Buddha gave a 20$ to the hot dog vendor.  Some time passed and he spake, "Where's my change"? The hot dog vendor replied, "change....must come from within! "

Isn't that the same guy who told the hot dog vendor, "Make me one with everything."

[Deidre]

Appreciate your replies. I will elaborate more later as I'm at work.

 

But I'm not thinking of enlightenment in this way due to my former Christian life, I've read what you are all saying about it but it is also part of a certain discipline. "Sutra" for example, seems to resemble Christianity's version of the Gospels. Not in terms of context obviously but in "revealing truths."

 

Someone else telling me what truth is, in other words. That's why it feels theistic, to a degree.

[Deidre]

T

 

The great Buddha gave a 20$ to the hot dog vendor.  Some time passed and he spake, "Where's my change"? The hot dog vendor replied, "change....must come from within! "

Isn't that the same guy who told the hot dog vendor, "Make me one with everything."[/quote

 

Lol!

[Antlerman]

Appreciate your replies. I will elaborate more later as I'm at work.

 

But I'm not thinking of enlightenment in this way due to my former Christian life, I've read what you are all saying about it but it is also part of a certain discipline. "Sutra" for example, seems to resemble Christianity's version of the Gospels. Not in terms of context obviously but in "revealing truths."

 

Someone else telling me what truth is, in other words. That's why it feels theistic, to a degree.

Yes, I see. I look forward to the rest of your thoughts as time permits. I'll inject here quickly that I think it is in fact a matter of language and how a Christian background colors a familiar-sounding term like "revealed". I can say this that I do not believe Buddhists interpret "revealing truth", in the same way at all as traditional Christianity does in the sense of dictating scripture as "God's Word". That carries with it the very 'external authority' connotation, that Truth, exists outside oneself.

 

Rather a better understanding for what is meant by truth being 'revealed', is the word illumination. That's quite different than revelation in a theistic sense. It's more like walking about in the world all ones life, and suddenly the sun lights the entire world we've been living in the whole time. The "Truth" was right there the entire time, it just lacked sufficient illumination to see more effortlessly. Truth doesn't come from outside, dictated down from on-high, from a God in the sky, but is simply matter of matter of shifting perspective that suddenly makes everything come to light, come into focus. The world becomes "revealed" to us, in the sense of turning on a light switch. That's quite different than trying to grasp truth outside oneself 'believing' in the teaching of others. It's not others that reveal the truth, or that it is revealed 'to us' from outside. It's a matter of seeing what's been there the entire time.

[Deidre]

Just a side note, when I say theistic in its feel, I'm not meaning to infer that enlightenment is reached through following an external source. Or worshipping an external source. It's the only word that I can think of to describe what I'm trying to say. lol

 

I don't believe it is all about self awareness though, either. (because it's not) So......

 

Hmmm

[Antlerman]

I don't believe it is all about self awareness though, either. (because it's not) So......

 

Hmmm

Then what else is it about that you see?

[Deidre]

 

Appreciate your replies. I will elaborate more later as I'm at work. :blush:But I'm not thinking of enlightenment in this way due to my former Christian life, I've read what you are all saying about it but it is also part of a certain discipline. "Sutra" for example, seems to resemble Christianity's version of the Gospels. Not in terms of context obviously but in "revealing truths."Someone else telling me what truth is, in other words. That's why it feels theistic, to a degree.

Yes, I see. I look forward to the rest of your thoughts as time permits. I'll inject here quickly that I think it is in fact a matter of language and how a Christian background colors a familiar-sounding term like "revealed". I can say this that I do not believe Buddhists interpret "revealing truth", in the same way at all as traditional Christianity does in the sense of dictating scripture as "God's Word". That carries with it the very 'external authority' connotation, that Truth, exists outside oneself.Rather a better understanding for what is meant by truth being 'revealed', is the word illumination. That's quite different than revelation in a theistic sense. It's more like walking about in the world all ones life, and suddenly the sun lights the entire world we've been living in the whole time. The "Truth" was right there the entire time, it just lacked sufficient illumination to see more effortlessly. Truth doesn't come from outside, dictated down from on-high, from a God in the sky, but is simply matter of matter of shifting perspective that suddenly makes everything come to light, come into focus. The world becomes "revealed" to us, in the sense of turning on a light switch. That's quite different than trying to grasp truth outside oneself 'believing' in the teaching of others. It's not others that reveal the truth, or that it is revealed 'to us' from outside. It's a matter of seeing what's been there the entire time.

I'm enjoying discussing this with you! I will be back later to reply to this and discuss more.

[Deidre]

 

I don't believe it is all about self awareness though, either. (because it's not) So......Hmmm

Then what else is it about that you see?

In brief, someone "else's" idea of self awareness, and "recommended" path as to how to attain it.

[Orbit]

 

 

I don't believe it is all about self awareness though, either. (because it's not) So......Hmmm

Then what else is it about that you see?

In brief, someone "else's" idea of self awareness, and "recommended" path as to how to attain it.

 

Buddhism is just a finger pointing at the moon. You're not supposed to focus on the finger (Buddhism), you're supposed to see the moon (enlightenment). They recommend a path, but the path isn't the focus, it's just a tool.

[Antlerman]

In brief, someone "else's" idea of self awareness, and "recommended" path as to how to attain it.

If all it is is a someone's idea of self-awareness, and not any sort of actual awakening, then it's as I said, a "belief system". The way it works is like this. Someone awakens. They describe it to others. They teach those interested what they did that helped bring this about for them. Then someone follows that teacher and they benefit from the wisdom of his learned experience, in their own path. But there is no one-size fits all path. What technique, or better stated when it comes to Buddhism, what technology is used, may or may not work all the time, for everyone. We're way too individual for that, let alone when you cross cultures, and all of that.

 

If someone seizes on that set of technologies as "THE" way, they miss the point entirely. The end goal is the tradition itself, but the destination. Enlightenment is a lived reality. How someone realizes that in themselves will likely follow similar patterns, but it needs to be individual in the end. Your group doesn't cross that threshold, you do. And it will only happen when you step beyond a path, beyond a way, beyond a technology, into awakening itself. As the Buddha said, "To insist upon a spiritual practice that has served you in the past, is to carry the raft upon your back when you've already crossed the river." I draw your attention to my signature line, "Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at the peak we all gaze at the single bright moon. ~Ikkyu - Zen-monk poet, 1394-1481

 

It's not Enlightenment itself that is the question, it's what path, what technology works for you. The whole issue I see is that Enlightenment is seen, visualized as some "thing" you attain, something you do not yet have, or something outside or beyond you. The secret is simple. Everyone is already fully enlightened at all times. It's our condition of being. It's just really as simple as saying we just haven't been 'enlightened' to that fact yet.

 

Buddhists describe it as the "gateless gate". It really is just that. It's walking through a door that was never there in the first place, opening a window and turning to see their never was a window. How can the path then be the Truth itself? I'll add one thing here too, that Enlightenment is not an end point. Rather, it is a beginning point. There is no end of Enlightenment. You enter into your own Enlightenment, and then live your life.

[Antlerman]

LOL

 

I was wondering why I couldn't like antlerman's post.  I just found out he's a MOD.  Congrats! 

Yes, no one is allowed to like us.

[Deidre]

 

LOL I was wondering why I couldn't like antlerman's post.  I just found out he's a MOD.  Congrats! 

Yes, no one is allowed to like us.

But we do.

 

Thank you for explaining the above! Very fascinating.

I have a question as a result: do you think Buddhism hints at or suggests that life is a problem to overcome or solve?

[Deidre]

 

In brief, someone "else's" idea of self awareness, and "recommended" path as to how to attain it.

If all it is is a someone's idea of self-awareness, and not any sort of actual awakening, then it's as I said, a "belief system". The way it works is like this. Someone awakens. They describe it to others. They teach those interested what they did that helped bring this about for them. Then someone follows that teacher and they benefit from the wisdom of his learned experience, in their own path. But there is no one-size fits all path. What technique, or better stated when it comes to Buddhism, what technology is used, may or may not work all the time, for everyone. We're way too individual for that, let alone when you cross cultures, and all of that.If someone seizes on that set of technologies as "THE" way, they miss the point entirely. The end goal is the tradition itself, but the destination. Enlightenment is a lived reality. How someone realizes that in themselves will likely follow similar patterns, but it needs to be individual in the end. Your group doesn't cross that threshold, you do. And it will only happen when you step beyond a path, beyond a way, beyond a technology, into awakening itself. As the Buddha said, "To insist upon a spiritual practice that has served you in the past, is to carry the raft upon your back when you've already crossed the river." I draw your attention to my signature line, "Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at the peak we all gaze at the single bright moon. ~Ikkyu - Zen-monk poet, 1394-1481It's not Enlightenment itself that is the question, it's what path, what technology works for you. The whole issue I see is that Enlightenment is seen, visualized as some "thing" you attain, something you do not yet have, or something outside or beyond you. The secret is simple. Everyone is already fully enlightened at all times. It's our condition of being. It's just really as simple as saying we just haven't been 'enlightened' to that fact yet. ;)Buddhists describe it as the "gateless gate". It really is just that. It's walking through a door that was never there in the first place, opening a window and turning to see their never was a window. How can the path then be the Truth itself? I'll add one thing here too, that Enlightenment is not an end point. Rather, it is a beginning point. There is no end of Enlightenment. You enter into your own Enlightenment, and then live your life.

This has been incredibly helpful, thank you!

 

I believe you lol but, are we to look at certain disciplines as guides? Suggestions to become more enlightened? (meaning those disciplines will remove barriers to your best self)

 

What comes to mind, is to not drink alcohol. It's not suggesting to drink in moderation but to abstain. Why?

 

I hope you don't mind me picking your brain on this?

[Antlerman]

Thank you for explaining the above! Very fascinating.

I have a question as a result: do you think Buddhism hints at or suggests that life is a problem to overcome or solve?

It think it teaches that suffering is created by attachment. Life isn't the problem, but our approach to it is, and what is responsible for suffering. I very much agree with that! There's a difference between pain, which is a natural part of life, and suffering which is us inflicting pain on ourselves. I've come to understand that by trying to capture life, to seize it, to posses it, is driven by our insecurities. We think that these things give us happiness, and if they go away we lose our happiness. We attribute to them our own happiness. And thus, we fear their loss. We cling to them, and never truly release ourselves from that fear and realize our happiness exists in our simple being, and brought to us from outside ourselves. The only problem to solve is us doing that!

 

The end result when we shift gears, turn the page on that habit, is living life free. It results in a deeper knowledge and appreciation of life, loving it as it is in the moment. And letting it be as it is, allowing it to come and go, like waves over you, and you giving of that love and beauty that is uniquely yours back into it. It's freedom from that suffering inflicted by ourselves out of fear to release ourselves into the impermanence of life. How can we see what simply is when we're busy focusing on the keeping it safe and secure in a box of our own ideas?

[Deidre]

The Dalai Lama and the "prayers" or mantras that many look to, that definitely seems theistic. It may be for our benefit, but it seems again that I am to view enlightenment as all you are saying, but also, it has a religious component to it.

 

Certain prayers or mantras are thought to bring about certain traits, perfection, and "blessings."

 

This is Buddhism, yes? Westerners may cherry pick some of it but there are definitely religious undertones to it. How to reconcile that with how you are describing enlightenment. That is where some confusion comes in for me.

[Antlerman]

This has been incredibly helpful, thank you!

 

I believe you lol but, are we to look at certain disciplines as guides? Suggestions to become more enlightened? (meaning those disciplines will remove barriers to your best self)

There is definitely things to be learned by others experiences. I can certainly share my own and what works for me. But the actual work is your own. Once it becomes personalized, once it becomes and internal realization and not just a teaching you try to follow, then it becomes your own teaching to yourself. Really, that's all this is!

 

It's like psychotherapy. All it tries to do is to point you to look within to find the answers that you've had the entire time. Your subconscious mind knows what to do! It's just a matter of opening to it with your waking mind and allowing its insights to inform how you think and perceive the world and yourself. It's truly, coming to know who you really are, and have been all along. These 'peak experiences' people have, these temporary flashed of Satori, or Kensho, or "God", or that "Ah hah!", moment where the curtain is pulled back and you stand in rapt awe of existence, is really just your normal waking consciousness getting out of the way and letting what is deep within you come to the foreground.

 

All that practices like these, these technologies of meditation and yoga, and the like, are putting the mind in a position where these 'opening' occur deliberately, rather than randomly like what happens to almost everyone at one time or another in their lives. There is a saying that, "Enlightenment happens by accident, but meditation makes you accident-prone". I very much agree with that. Again though, the purpose of any practice is to get you do to the work yourself, from your own self. Having other's insights about what works and doesn't is helpful, but not to be relied upon to move you forward into your own path. You begin a student of your own mind, and then you become your own teacher.

 

What comes to mind, is to not drink alcohol. It's not suggesting to drink in moderation but to abstain. Why?

Because some people have found it distracting to the work of the inner development. I can say I do drink alcohol, but to attempt meditation when you have that in your systems is really, really counterproductive. I simply cannot do it. It's freaky and uncomfortable. You turn your mind inward and you hit the effects of the alcohol on the mind and are completely unable to counter it. It's fine if you just want to relax and intoxicate the mind, but certainly not while you're doing work! It's not different than having a couple martinis over lunch and going back to work and trying to focus on doing your job. Good luck with that!

 

It's not that these things are "evil", but they can be counterproductive to ones discipline, which really is this: an exercise regimen. If you're training the body, your don't eat Big Macs, and then head to the gym. Meditation is exercices. Exactly that. But I believe in balance as well. It really depends on what someone is trying to accomplish for themselves. It's no moral violation, or anything like that. But that too though, if you act poorly to others, that too is counterproductive to developing love and compassion within yourself. It does work together, but again, it's not some magic code outside yourself that if you follow you'll be magically rewarded, nor punished if you violate. That's not what it is at all.

 

I hope you don't mind me picking your brain on this?

Pick away. Take what you like.

[Antlerman]

The Dalai Lama and the "prayers" or mantras that many look to, that definitely seems theistic. It may be for our benefit, but it seems again that I am to view enlightenment as all you are saying, but also, it has a religious component to it.

Religion is really just a structure of beliefs and practices to support work (at it's ideal best, anyway). Mantras are one of these technologies. They help focus the mind and move it away from normal discursive thought processes. You 'melt' as it were into the chant, and move into that subconscious mind I mentioned. Some people will view them as "magic words", but that is that externalized view of them as having power in and of themselves. There is no power in the words, but in ourselves. Using these as a tool, gets us in touch with that which is there the whole time. In other words, the "magic" is in us, as people often and rightly say. We are that magic, so to speak.

 

Additionally, mantras have certain focuses they contain, such as compassion. By chanting Om Mani Padme Hum, (the jewel in the lotus - literal translation), it moves the mind to focus on that attribute, and thus awaken it within ourselves. It's the same thing with deity figures. Let me quote someone's perfect explanation of this practice that focuses on a deity form:

"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."

 

 

~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85

You can see in this that such practices are not 'theistic' in the traditional sense, but it's goal is to realize that in oneself, to become God, as it were. There is no longer a God at this point. It's awakening in to ourselves that which God represents in our mythologies. It's archetypal forms of ones own true Self. We just call it God when it's "out of reach" to us.

 

So you see, these are tools, technologies, not things you "believe in" as the end goal. You come to your own awakening, through things like these - some work for some, others for others.

 

Certain prayers or mantras are thought to bring about certain traits, perfection, and "blessings."

 

This is Buddhism, yes? Westerners may cherry pick some of it but there are definitely religious undertones to it. How to reconcile that with how you are describing enlightenment. That is where some confusion comes in for me.

This is how they understand them, the way I just described. But for some people, they view them as magical things outside themselves, yet. They haven't really move to that understanding yet, and so you get those who will insist you must pronounce the words exactly right for them to work! That's just a more immature understanding of them for where they're at.

[Deidre]

Still at work lol so it is hard for me to quote on my phone but I will later. But I just want to say, your thorough explanation has been so valuable to me. In truth, I enjoyed the prayer aspect of Christianity. But when I abandoned it, I developed a sort of aversion to anything that resembled it. The mantras remind me of "prescribed" prayers I once prayed (think "The Lord's Prayer")

 

Perhaps humanity craves some type of structure, but in this case, the structure can help me illuminate my own path "towards" enlightenment, but enlightenment being ongoing and never final. The structure and disciplines aren't designed to confine me (like Christianity) but rather free me?

 

I like this, ok. I get it.

 

((Thank you!)) :)

 

So, you pray the main mantra as part of your own private meditation?

Do you go to any meditation "centers?"

[Antlerman]

In truth, I enjoyed the prayer aspect of Christianity. But when I abandoned it, I developed a sort of aversion to anything that resembled it. The mantras remind me of "prescribed" prayers I once prayed (think "The Lord's Prayer")

It happens, of course. It's part of the process of putting some distance between ourselves and the past in order to sort things out. Eventually we come to a place where we are able to reclaim the good parts of it, the baby from the bathwater, and utilize it at a higher level of understanding than we had before. For me, I came to a place where I refused to let the Christian system falsely claim ownership over all things spiritual. As a result, in a very real way it's realizing in a healthy way what good parts the broken system did have and that I enjoyed and benefitted from. It's all about reclaiming power that we let others take away from us. I've taken back that power I gave to them.

 

Perhaps humanity craves some type of structure, but in this case, the structure can help me illuminate my own path "towards" enlightenment, but enlightenment being ongoing and never final.

Everyone needs some support structure, even it it isn't some sort of organized body complete with administration. It can be a community of the like-minded, be that one or two friends in the same path you are. But the real work is individual. The support comes in when you bring what you open to in yourself and discuss it with others for their insight and feedback for you. It doesn't matter really what this surrounds, it's just a part of a humanity needing others in our process of growth and maintaining.

 

The structure and disciplines aren't designed to confine me (like Christianity) but rather free me?

Well, yes. But others can help direct and focus you and help ground you, if through nothing other than you simply talking about it to others. I have one individual in my life who definitely helps me focus where I'm at in my work when I ask. But for the most part, they act as a touchstone for me. It's enormously helpful. And then there is group work beyond that, where individuals create a "we space", that is the product of not anyone of the individuals, but a collective "we". That too deeply informs us as individuals because it is something we "co-create" with others that is part of ourselves, and informs us. It's hard to explain that, and that is one of my lesser attended areas as the majority of my work is solo practice.

 

So, you pray the main mantra as part of your own private meditation?

Yes, I find it useful at times to help ground and center the mind. It helps to open me up beyond the busy chattering discursive mind. Most times, I just use music in meditation to enter into it. It's all about tools to relax ourselves and open ourselves. Whatever works for you. Experiment. But mantras are proven to be effective, and can be explained scientifically as well, if that's important to understand.

 

Do you go to any meditation "centers?"

No. I tend to fly solo. But I'll say that part of my practice is to use Tibetan singing bowls, as I am a musician and music really helps me to open up. I've grown a collection of these, all antique hand-beaten from Tibet and Nepal, as well as various gongs and whatnot. I don't use them all everyday in my practice, but I'm now starting to go to various Yoga centers and whatnot and play them for others to meditate and practice yoga with.

 

It creates a really indescribable environment for people that takes them places. That's a form of group meditation for me, as I'm somewhat 'channeling' what's going on in the group energy through what I'm creating through this instruments. It's quite meditative for me within it. It's like a feedback loop. Quite deep, even for those without any meditation experience at all. A good friend of mine who doesn't practice meditation told me it took him all over the place in incredibly profound ways. That he was blown away by it. I have such a 'performance' I'm doing tomorrow in fact.

 

Here's a photo of part of my musical setup I had setup at a friend's bookstore a number of months ago I did for a few guests.

 

[Orbit]

Diedre, Alan Watts is a very good explainer of Buddhism--you can search for him on youtube and I think you might find it interesting. He was also an ex-Christian (former Episcopalian minister). Here's a start: 

[Deidre]

Diedre, Alan Watts is a very good explainer of Buddhism--you can search for him on youtube and I think you might find it interesting. He was also an ex-Christian (former Episcopalian minister). Here's a start: 

 this is awesome, thank you! i will listen to it tomorrow when i have my breakfast. i'm interested to learn too about his journey away from christianity, if he discusses that at all. that's nice of you, orbit to post this.

 

 

T

 

 

 

 

The great Buddha gave a 20$ to the hot dog vendor.  Some time passed and he spake, "Where's my change"? The hot dog vendor replied, "change....must come from within! "

Isn't that the same guy who told the hot dog vendor, "Make me one with everything."

 

Lol!

 

Why can't a Buddhist vacuum under the sofa?

 

Because he has no attachments.

 

 

silly human is sooo silly

 

 

Human, here is a basic link that I think you'll enjoy reading. Talks about shamanism, and the history of it, and how some archaeologists feel it could date back to the Paleolithic period. I found some other articles about it, as well, if you're interested.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism

Deidre, thanks for the link. I enjoyed reading and being reminded. Most of my understanding of Shamanism comes from Native American culture and tradition. While I was aware that Shamanism has been practiced in other cultures, the details were vague (or I'd forgotten a lot of what I had learned years ago). The article filled in a lot of missing/forgotten info.

 

Suring the past couple years, I've talked with people who practice and teach various aspects of Shamanism.

 

Have you read or pondered Shamanism any further?

 

Human

 

 

i have some, yes. i will post tomorrow a link to a lecture of a professor i listened to last year, who talks about the mysteries of consciousness. he's a scientist, and he came up with a new theory, and it's frowned upon in the mainstream arena, but some are thinking he may be onto something. scientists can be so snobby, sometimes. haha but to their credit, they don't like his theory because there's no science to back it up. consciousness is still such a question mark, you know?

 

"If you meet the Buddha, kill him."

 

—Linji

 

 

Thinking about the Buddha as an entity or deity is delusion, not awakening. One must destroy the preconception of the Buddha as separate and external before one can become internally as their own Buddha. Zen master Shunryu Suzuki wrote in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind during an introduction to Zazen,

 

 

Kill the Buddha if the Buddha exists somewhere else. Kill the Buddha, because you should resume your own Buddha nature.

 

One is only able to see a Buddha as he exists in separation from Buddha, the mind of the practitioner is thus still holding onto apparent duality.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kōan

 

Linji Yixuan

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linji_Yixuan

kill the buddha? what?

 

why is buddha's path to enlightenment such a central part of buddhism?

[Deidre]

 

In truth, I enjoyed the prayer aspect of Christianity. But when I abandoned it, I developed a sort of aversion to anything that resembled it. The mantras remind me of "prescribed" prayers I once prayed (think "The Lord's Prayer")

 

It happens, of course. It's part of the process of putting some distance between ourselves and the past in order to sort things out. Eventually we come to a place where we are able to reclaim the good parts of it, the baby from the bathwater, and utilize it at a higher level of understanding than we had before. For me, I came to a place where I refused to let the Christian system falsely claim ownership over all things spiritual. As a result, in a very real way it's realizing in a healthy way what good parts the broken system did have and that I enjoyed and benefitted from. It's all about reclaiming power that we let others take away from us. I've taken back that power I gave to them.

 

Yes, you are very intuitive to say this, and at the right time, it seems. I guess I still have some ''hang ups'' with some parts of Christianity, a residue that I can't shower off. lol I view all other spiritual philosophies through that lens. ''I refused to let the Christian system falsely claim ownership over all things spiritual.'' Yep, well said. Can an atheist still be...spirital? Idk. You're not a theist or a deist, are you an atheist, may I ask?

 

 

 

 

Perhaps humanity craves some type of structure, but in this case, the structure can help me illuminate my own path "towards" enlightenment, but enlightenment being ongoing and never final.

Everyone needs some support structure, even it it isn't some sort of organized body complete with administration. It can be a community of the like-minded, be that one or two friends in the same path you are. But the real work is individual. The support comes in when you bring what you open to in yourself and discuss it with others for their insight and feedback for you. It doesn't matter really what this surrounds, it's just a part of a humanity needing others in our process of growth and maintaining.

 

 

 

 

The structure and disciplines aren't designed to confine me (like Christianity) but rather free me?

 

Well, yes. But others can help direct and focus you and help ground you, if through nothing other than you simply talking about it to others. I have one individual in my life who definitely helps me focus where I'm at in my work when I ask. But for the most part, they act as a touchstone for me. It's enormously helpful. And then there is group work beyond that, where individuals create a "we space", that is the product of not anyone of the individuals, but a collective "we". That too deeply informs us as individuals because it is something we "co-create" with others that is part of ourselves, and informs us. It's hard to explain that, and that is one of my lesser attended areas as the majority of my work is solo practice.

I see. There is a simplicity about Buddhism, and yet a complexity that I like, I guess. Your explanation of it has provided some light on areas I honestly was curious about, but not finding answers. You are practical about Buddhism, and it's far more than academic for you.

 

 

 

 

So, you pray the main mantra as part of your own private meditation?

Yes, I find it useful at times to help ground and center the mind. It helps to open me up beyond the busy chattering discursive mind. Most times, I just use music in meditation to enter into it. It's all about tools to relax ourselves and open ourselves. Whatever works for you. Experiment. But mantras are proven to be effective, and can be explained scientifically as well, if that's important to understand.

 

You know? I'm going to experiment this weekend with the main mantra. Just to see how I experience it. I take yoga classes, and there are some meditative qualities to this class I'm involved in, but nothing like this. Different than Christian prayer, I think this type of meditation is going to empty me out, as opposed to Christian prayer...being burdening? I don't know how to explain that.

 

 

 

 

Do you go to any meditation "centers?"

No. I tend to fly solo. But I'll say that part of my practice is to use Tibetan singing bowls, as I am a musician and music really helps me to open up. I've grown a collection of these, all antique hand-beaten from Tibet and Nepal, as well as various gongs and whatnot. I don't use them all everyday in my practice, but I'm now starting to go to various Yoga centers and whatnot and play them for others to meditate and practice yoga with.

 

 

 

It creates a really indescribable environment for people that takes them places. That's a form of group meditation for me, as I'm somewhat 'channeling' what's going on in the group energy through what I'm creating through this instruments. It's quite meditative for me within it. It's like a feedback loop. Quite deep, even for those without any meditation experience at all. A good friend of mine who doesn't practice meditation told me it took him all over the place in incredibly profound ways. That he was blown away by it. I have such a 'performance' I'm doing tomorrow in fact.

 

Here's a photo of part of my musical setup I had setup at a friend's bookstore a number of months ago I did for a few guests.

 

Setup.jpg

That's so cool! What a neat experience of channeling through music. Thank you so very much for sharing a lot of your own experiences with me, here. It's been fun learning from you.

 

 

 

 

 

[Deidre]

I don't know why I'm so inept when it comes to multi quoting. lol Hope you can find my answers up there ^^ Antlerman.