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Goodbye Jesus

Hard For Me To Be Ex-Christian


directionless

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Directionless: I think part of the problem is that you have set this limitation on yourself of either "atheism or the Christian God" when there are so many other options out there.  Have you read other texts, like the Upanishads, for example? 

 

While I can understand why you would never feel comfortable in a group of Hindus, Buddhists, etc., I have found some very interesting ideas in there.  Respectfully, why limit yourself? It is extremely difficult to re-image the Christian God if you were brought up in that religion, but is there a chance that if you got away from it completely and studied other God concepts then you would have an easier time doing it? Just tossing some questions your way, only because I am not satisfied with atheism either.

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I'm with Deva on this one.

 

I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you "understand" - in so far as it makes sense to you, or you are at least familiar with it - the Christian concept of deity, but have some difficulty with the idea of deity as might be understood in other belief structures.  If you are uncomfortable with atheism, but cannot accept Christianity, at least take the time to think through some alternatives - some of which you might find closer to an atheistic approach than you imagine.  You don't necessarily need to light upon a personal deity or even to link "spirituality" with "deity" in the end - but you do need to find your way to a structure that makes sense to you and which gives you some psychological stability in your navigation of this life.

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Here are some random things I've noticed:

 

(1) Whenever I make a decision I always think: what am I supposed to do? - and implicitly I ask that question to God. I don't mean to exaggerate, but I sometimes worry about silly choices like chocolate or vanilla.

 

(2) I think about God and unconsciously pray quite a lot - especially when I go for walks.

 

(3) Believing in God feels very natural to me. Not believing in God is like trying to learn to walk a new way and feeling clumsy. Sometimes I would prefer to walk the way I have always walked, because I'm too old to learn a new way.

 

(4) When I enjoy nature, believing in God seems to enhance the experience.

 

I should emphasize that I have never been a bible-believing, "authentic" Christian. I was very religious and superstitious briefly a few years ago, but most of my life I have simply had a vague faith that God and Jesus love us all and keeping an eye on us. (I subconsciously believed this even when I considered myself to be an atheist.)

 

I have wondered if this is similar to neo-Pagans. It seems like neo-Pagans allow their minds to imagine their gods and magic exist even though they know intellectually that it isn't possible, because it enhances their life? So why not apply this approach to Christianity?

 

Of course, I know Christianity doesn't work intellectually.

If it does not offend thee then dont pluck it out.

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If you are in a majority Xtian country, chances are your therapist will be Xtian anyway.

I'm in the bible belt. I was surprised there were no Christian psychologists listed near me. But I bet you are right that many of them are Christians of some type.

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I certainly understand the comfort that comes from believing there is an all loving god up there watching over us and taking care of us.  From the moment we are born, we are utterly dependent on our parents for sustinence and protection.  It makes sense that we still desire this, even in adult hood, an external source of sustinence and protection that gives peace of mind.  However, the tendancy to want such a thing does not make it a true thing.  A major break through for me is when I realized that all the comforting feelings that I used to get from praying to god really came from within myself.  I realized then that if I acheived that level of peace before, and god never existed, then there is no reason I can't still acheive that same level of peace.  My peace is not dependent on god if he does not exist.  It came from within me, my own self assurance.  Exactly how you acheive peace depends on what works for you.  I'm as happy now as I ever was as a Christian, and more so in some ways.  I think Deidre is right.  Fear is a big part of it.  Now that I'm past the fear, I can sit in nature and wonder at whether or not there is an ultimate purpose or god behind it all.  If there is, and said god really loves us like the bible says, then we have nothing to fear.  If said god does not exist, then we still have nothing to fear.  It's a win-win.

Thanks. For me I don't think fear plays such a big role (although there is a lot of fear in my subconscious). The subconscious fear is not fear of hell, but it is more a fear of making the wrong choices - like there is one right path and millions of wrong paths with terrible consequences and my subconscious is afraid to choose anything at all.

 

So to keep the subconscious from panicking, I tend to stay on familiar paths. Christianity doesn't bother it, and atheism doesn't bother it, but other things bother it.

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Directionless: I think part of the problem is that you have set this limitation on yourself of either "atheism or the Christian God" when there are so many other options out there.  Have you read other texts, like the Upanishads, for example? 

 

While I can understand why you would never feel comfortable in a group of Hindus, Buddhists, etc., I have found some very interesting ideas in there.  Respectfully, why limit yourself? It is extremely difficult to re-image the Christian God if you were brought up in that religion, but is there a chance that if you got away from it completely and studied other God concepts then you would have an easier time doing it? Just tossing some questions your way, only because I am not satisfied with atheism either.

Thanks. I like some of the ideas in Hinduism and Buddhism, and I like the art, calligraphy, and music in Islam. I am very inspired by some of the Christian monastics ideas. Sections of "The Ladder of Divine Ascent" make me want to run-off and join a monastery. That was actually what I dreamed about during my brief efforts at Christianity, but it was not realistic.

 

One of the hallucinations leading up to the psychotic episode I experienced involved a Hindu book, so Hinduism bothers me now. Buddhism also bothers me to a lesser degree. When I try to read about those religions, I begin to feel uncomfortable due to my Christian background.

 

Atheism isn't very inspiring and Christianity is hard to reconcile with reality. I enjoy sitting long enough in nature that I begin to notice all the fascinating details without actually focusing on anything in particular. I've been told that is similar to meditation.

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I'm with Deva on this one.

 

I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you "understand" - in so far as it makes sense to you, or you are at least familiar with it - the Christian concept of deity, but have some difficulty with the idea of deity as might be understood in other belief structures.  If you are uncomfortable with atheism, but cannot accept Christianity, at least take the time to think through some alternatives - some of which you might find closer to an atheistic approach than you imagine.  You don't necessarily need to light upon a personal deity or even to link "spirituality" with "deity" in the end - but you do need to find your way to a structure that makes sense to you and which gives you some psychological stability in your navigation of this life.

 

If it does not offend thee then dont pluck it out.

Ellinas and midniterider, I don't understand neo-paganism, but it seems like they don't actually believe in Zeus (for example). It seems like they have a feeling of attachment to the sky and abstract that feeling as worship of the sky god Zeus. They don't worry that the facts of the Zeus myths are false.

 

So I've been wondering if a similar approach would work with Christianity. I sit on the beach and think there ought to be a creator that cares about all this, and I abstract this feeling as God or Jesus. I don't worry that the myths are false.

 

I suspect this is how liberal Christian theologians can call themselves Christians without actually believing anything different from an atheist.

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I'm with Deva on this one.

 

I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you "understand" - in so far as it makes sense to you, or you are at least familiar with it - the Christian concept of deity, but have some difficulty with the idea of deity as might be understood in other belief structures.  If you are uncomfortable with atheism, but cannot accept Christianity, at least take the time to think through some alternatives - some of which you might find closer to an atheistic approach than you imagine.  You don't necessarily need to light upon a personal deity or even to link "spirituality" with "deity" in the end - but you do need to find your way to a structure that makes sense to you and which gives you some psychological stability in your navigation of this life.

 

If it does not offend thee then dont pluck it out.

Ellinas and midniterider, I don't understand neo-paganism, but it seems like they don't actually believe in Zeus (for example). It seems like they have a feeling of attachment to the sky and abstract that feeling as worship of the sky god Zeus. They don't worry that the facts of the Zeus myths are false.

 

So I've been wondering if a similar approach would work with Christianity. I sit on the beach and think there ought to be a creator that cares about all this, and I abstract this feeling as God or Jesus. I don't worry that the myths are false.

 

I suspect this is how liberal Christian theologians can call themselves Christians without actually believing anything different from an atheist.

 

 

I've read pagan forums and newbie pagans are advised to do a lot of reading and then sort of roll their own belief system (at least for solitary practitioners). No, it doesnt matter that the myths are false. It's more about the warm fuzzies you get. And it may not matter if you commune with a god or goddess at all. I've heard the term atheist pagan or vice versa.

 

Whatever works for you, go for it. If it starts causing you mental issues, change it or throw it away.

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I'm with Deva on this one.

 

I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you "understand" - in so far as it makes sense to you, or you are at least familiar with it - the Christian concept of deity, but have some difficulty with the idea of deity as might be understood in other belief structures.  If you are uncomfortable with atheism, but cannot accept Christianity, at least take the time to think through some alternatives - some of which you might find closer to an atheistic approach than you imagine.  You don't necessarily need to light upon a personal deity or even to link "spirituality" with "deity" in the end - but you do need to find your way to a structure that makes sense to you and which gives you some psychological stability in your navigation of this life.

 

If it does not offend thee then dont pluck it out.

Ellinas and midniterider, I don't understand neo-paganism, but it seems like they don't actually believe in Zeus (for example). It seems like they have a feeling of attachment to the sky and abstract that feeling as worship of the sky god Zeus. They don't worry that the facts of the Zeus myths are false.

 

So I've been wondering if a similar approach would work with Christianity. I sit on the beach and think there ought to be a creator that cares about all this, and I abstract this feeling as God or Jesus. I don't worry that the myths are false.

 

I suspect this is how liberal Christian theologians can call themselves Christians without actually believing anything different from an atheist.

 

 

I've read pagan forums and newbie pagans are advised to do a lot of reading and then sort of roll their own belief system (at least for solitary practitioners). No, it doesnt matter that the myths are false. It's more about the warm fuzzies you get. And it may not matter if you commune with a god or goddess at all. I've heard the term atheist pagan or vice versa.

 

Whatever works for you, go for it. If it starts causing you mental issues, change it or throw it away.

 

 

Taking "Zeus" as the example - as that name has been mentioned - I've come across reconstructionists who would claim to quite literally "believe in Zeus"; there are others who mix and match their deities within a construct that can vary from a belief in an objectively real personality to a theory about some sort of archetype or thoughtform.  Some are "fuzzies".  Some have a concept of deity that is unashamedly harsh.

 

As I've said before on this site, there is great variety.

 

Directionless - you seem to have difficulty with the idea of neopaganism as a sort of "doctrine-free zone".  To be honest, I would tend to the view that "neopaganism" is a pretty wide umbrella term, and it's best not to see it as a single "religion".

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I would tend to the view that "neopaganism" is a pretty wide umbrella term, and it's best not to see it as a single "religion".

 

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I'd agree with that.

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I've read pagan forums and newbie pagans are advised to do a lot of reading and then sort of roll their own belief system (at least for solitary practitioners). No, it doesnt matter that the myths are false. It's more about the warm fuzzies you get. And it may not matter if you commune with a god or goddess at all. I've heard the term atheist pagan or vice versa.

 

Whatever works for you, go for it. If it starts causing you mental issues, change it or throw it away.

 

Taking "Zeus" as the example - as that name has been mentioned - I've come across reconstructionists who would claim to quite literally "believe in Zeus"; there are others who mix and match their deities within a construct that can vary from a belief in an objectively real personality to a theory about some sort of archetype or thoughtform.  Some are "fuzzies".  Some have a concept of deity that is unashamedly harsh.

 

As I've said before on this site, there is great variety.

 

Directionless - you seem to have difficulty with the idea of neopaganism as a sort of "doctrine-free zone".  To be honest, I would tend to the view that "neopaganism" is a pretty wide umbrella term, and it's best not to see it as a single "religion".

 

 

 

I would tend to the view that "neopaganism" is a pretty wide umbrella term, and it's best not to see it as a single "religion".

 

 

---

 

I'd agree with that.

O.k. I still don't get it. I mean I sort of get it, but I don't understand the appeal of it. I understand animism - that makes perfect sense to me. I don't understand why people feel that inventing myths and symbols and rituals to relate to nature is useful. To me it is like you're sitting and observing a patch of flowers. You notice dragon flies and details about the petals and the wind and birds chirping. You might even feel love for that patch of flowers like it is a conscious being. Then you spoil it all by thinking about Zeus and whatever the lines on a pentagram symbolizes and so forth. That makes no sense to me.

 

Of course like you both have mentioned it is hard to generalize about neopaganism, and I know it makes sense to many people. For some reason I just don't get it. smile.png

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There's no particular reason why it should make sense to you.  If you don't get it, don't do it.  Plenty of other approaches.  The point was simply that there are many ideas of "deity" - some of which are pretty impersonal - and "spirituality" within many belief structures.  You don't need to work on the basis of a direct choice between Christianity and atheism - and there is plenty of information out there to keep you happily researching for a very long time.

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O.k. I still don't get it. I mean I sort of get it, but I don't understand the appeal of it. I understand animism - that makes perfect sense to me. I don't understand why people feel that inventing myths and symbols and rituals to relate to nature is useful. To me it is like you're sitting and observing a patch of flowers. You notice dragon flies and details about the petals and the wind and birds chirping. You might even feel love for that patch of flowers like it is a conscious being. Then you spoil it all by thinking about Zeus and whatever the lines on a pentagram symbolizes and so forth. That makes no sense to me.

 

Of course like you both have mentioned it is hard to generalize about neopaganism, and I know it makes sense to many people. For some reason I just don't get it. smile.png

 

 

If you like animism, enjoy that. If rituals, myths, gods and symbols seem ridiculous then dont use them.

 

There's probably as many off-shoots of neopaganism as there are neo-paganists. Pagans like to use the word 'electic' a lot as in 'I do my own thing.' :-)

 

Check out http://animisminternational.org/ if ya like.

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There's no particular reason why it should make sense to you.  If you don't get it, don't do it.  Plenty of other approaches.  The point was simply that there are many ideas of "deity" - some of which are pretty impersonal - and "spirituality" within many belief structures.  You don't need to work on the basis of a direct choice between Christianity and atheism - and there is plenty of information out there to keep you happily researching for a very long time.

 

 

If you like animism, enjoy that. If rituals, myths, gods and symbols seem ridiculous then dont use them.

 

There's probably as many off-shoots of neopaganism as there are neo-paganists. Pagans like to use the word 'electic' a lot as in 'I do my own thing.' :-)

 

Check out http://animisminternational.org/ if ya like.

Thanks, that animism website seems to be a close match for my opinions about the world. smile.png

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Atheism usually leaves me feeling depressed.

Atheism can't be as depressing as believing in a god who acts like a prick.

 

You either find evidence to believe an untestable supernatural claim or you don't. It really is that simple and can be no other way. The problem is social habit and indoctrination/brainwashing while in the cult. Sometimes that's just hard to shake and some need professional counseling to get past the old emotional patterns.

 

This reminds me of somebody who described God as a "deadbeat dad".

 

As I was watching the birds one came close enough that I could see that it was skinny and its feathers were all rumpled.

 

Sometimes I think humans need to become like God and make this planet a Garden of Eden.

 

 

Considering that it never happened in the first place can we just be like humans and take care of the planet we have now? god doesn't need to be part of it, never did never was.

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Atheism usually leaves me feeling depressed.

Atheism can't be as depressing as believing in a god who acts like a prick.

 

You either find evidence to believe an untestable supernatural claim or you don't. It really is that simple and can be no other way. The problem is social habit and indoctrination/brainwashing while in the cult. Sometimes that's just hard to shake and some need professional counseling to get past the old emotional patterns.

 

This reminds me of somebody who described God as a "deadbeat dad".

 

As I was watching the birds one came close enough that I could see that it was skinny and its feathers were all rumpled.

 

Sometimes I think humans need to become like God and make this planet a Garden of Eden.

 

 

Considering that it never happened in the first place can we just be like humans and take care of the planet we have now? god doesn't need to be part of it, never did never was.

 

I agree with what you're saying. I think you misunderstood what I meant by becoming like God and making the planet a Garden of Eden. The natural wild state is beautiful in some ways, but often individual animals and plants live miserable lives. So rather than simply reducing the impact of humans on the environment, why not try to manage the environment to reduce the suffering of the plants and animals? A simple example is the trap-neuter-release approach to managing feral cats. TNR is much better than allowing nature to take its course with feral cats IMO.

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Directionless:

For as confident as I sometimes come across as an atheist I kind of get some of what you're saying. I never prayed like many Christians do. But there have been a couple occasions I was tempted to pray, which was always a frustrating experience for me as a Christian. So I sat and thought about the problem instead, and got my answer. Also, believe it or not, I also fantasize about what it would be like to have a supreme being out there. I don't actually believe it: all possibility of belief without evidence is now gone from me. But, if I do ponder that stuff, and shut off my interminable rational mind that says the problem of evil still exists, I imagine the supreme being as more of a goddess than a god. I'm unfamiliar with traditional goddess worship, so I'm relatively limited to my own imagination only. But I already know before it starts that it is merely my own imagination. I don't believe any of it.

In your case, it sounds like you do believe it to some extent. But you may want to separate out what you understand as your imagination and what you actually believe. If you know it's your imagination, that's not wrong. It's like imagining what it would be like to drop everything and go walk across the country in six months, or something. Most of us entertain thoughts like that, but wouldn't actually drop our responsibilities and go do that. Not in middle age anyway. I think it's healthy to entertain the imagination, despite what Christians claim. I get restless and think about that taking off, every year or two, for a few weeks. If I go ahead and indulge it in my mind, it runs its course and is done, because I already know it's just my imagination. I'm not going to actually do it.

How this relates to belief? If you actually believe in some kind of god, to me that makes sense. You come from a brand of Christianity that doesn't run apologetics against every single other god concept the way the evangelicals do. I've read online that some feminist Methodists have goddesses, or are goddesses, or something like that, they believe all that stuff. You'd never catch an evangelical believing that. It sounds like your god idea is more real to you than my fictional RPG goddess idea is to me. I'll admit, mine's more of an intellectual curiosity as to how we'd see things differently, if at all, were there a supreme goddess instead of a supreme god in the dominant religions. You believe yours is out there, I merely wonder what people would do if my fictional idea was out there, or what evidence it would have left if it was.

I guess I'm just saying, atheism isn't a goal. I don't think anyone finds comfort in atheism, it's just a realization. Humanism as a moral philosophy I have found some comfort in, not the way people usually find comfort in religious systems, more of camaraderie I guess. I agree, you should check out humanism, perhaps spiritual humanism. And you might find stuff under Ex-Christian Spirituality. I haven't been, personally, because I respect the people are taking it seriously where I don't believe anything  is out there 'looking after us'.

When you saw that scrawny bird, that was pretty instructive. Charles Darwin had many such experiences on his expedition. He was not fully deconverted until years after his return from the Galapagos Islands. I'm not here to convince you of my way, or try and make you subject your ideas to rational inquiry. Just suggesting, though, if you know you're imagining it, what's the harm? If you believe it, that's one thing, and you can figure that out. But if you're conducting some sort of informal thought experiment and imagining things, just tell yourself ahead of time you're just imagining it, and then roll with it. Especially if you have trouble distinguishing the real from the imagined at times. It sounds like from some of your other posts this may be difficult for you.

But again, atheism is not a goal, and I don't think everyone is really cut out for rational inquiry. And atheism is just an intellectual position, or part of an intellectual position. It is not a moral philosophy like humanism. It's only an identity because there are religious people. Without the prevalence of religion, atheism would not really be a "thing," as it were.

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^Leo, your experiment imagining a supreme goddess is interesting. I've been thinking about a similar approach with God. What would we expect to see if God exists? What is the maximally god-like God that can exist and still be consistent with accepted reality? I was thinking about starting a thread to discuss these questions.

 

You are right that my imaginings of God are motivated by a small degree of belief, and that is different from your imaginings of a supreme female goddess as an intellectual game.

 

On the scrawny bird, imagine if we humans decided to enhance the quality of life for animals and plants instead of merely leaving them to fight for survival. Imagine if we could sterilize the birds by feeding them special birdseed. This might reduce the bird population so that individual birds would live in a paradise with plenty of food, free veterinary care, etc.

 

I agree that I sometimes have problems knowing what is real, and that makes it harder to be rational. In a way I am being rational, but my data is different from everybody else.

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