mymistake Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I think God took a big chance when he created humans with free will. So then you don't believe this god is omniscient. How about clearing this up, Iron Horse? I second. I would really like to see IH address this one. We have seen this a thousand times from other believers. He will just say his words do not mean what they mean. Then he will act like he didn't contradict himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I think God took a big chance when he created humans with free will. So then you don't believe this god is omniscient.How about clearing this up, Iron Horse?I second. I would really like to see IH address this one. We have seen this a thousand times from other believers. He will just say his words do not mean what they mean. Then he will act like he didn't contradict himself. That type of intellectual dishonesty is part of what led me away from Christianity. The whole belief system is nothing but appeals to emotion shrouded in logical contradictions. I remember, as a Christian, that I was really good at convincing myself the contradictions were not really there. I think IH has genuinely convinced himself that these problems we present aren't real. He ignores them because he can't answer them. He hasn't accepted yet that a good deal of them are unanswerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God. I would argue that this statement is not entirely accurate. I'm not sure how to comment. Can you explain why you think my statement is inaccurate? Thanks Others have already answered this question in my stead. However, to reiterate what they have said, beliefs are not a matter of choice. People believe what makes the most sense to them at any given point in time. Things tend to make more sense to a person if the cultural/social influences around them are conducive of those things making sense. Things are especially more readily acceptable as making sense if a person is indoctrinated from childhood to believe those things make sense. Even if a person goes through a period of questioning, the pressure of cultural/societal influences combined with childhood indoctrination is usually enough to push said person back to a position of belief, with the added (but false) satisfaction that said person chose to believe after critical examination. Sound familiar? Before I answer, could you make a list or explain what you mean by childhood indoctrination? Thanks Don't be lazy, Ironhorse. A simply google search of "childhood indoctrination" will yield the answers you need. I did not word my question well. I wanted to know if he was his view on parents teaching their children a particular religious belief and what he specifically disagreed with and viewed as damaging or incorrect. I understand the meaning of indoctrination as teaching or inculcating a doctrine, principle, or ideology, especially one with a specific point of view: IH, you are splitting hairs and dodging the issue. It doesn't matter which doctrines the Proffess thinks are damaging when people are indoctrinated into them. The point is that hearing something over and over from childhood, even if everyone else around you thinks it's true, does not make it true (doesn't even make it likely). You indicate that you understand this but yet you insist that there is some underlying issue that the Proffessor needs to address. There isn't. He has made his point. You are dodging the fact that you refuse to admit the strong likely hood, if not certainty, that the only reason you believe what you do is because you have been indoctrinated by a cultural majority. You have claimed many times that you arrived at your conclusions through skepticism. You have not. Perhaps you have on minor doctrinal points. Perhaps you have questioned your core beliefs before. I think you have or you would not be here. But you have been lead back to your indoctrination because it is what is comfortable. You have no convincing logical argument for your beliefs. All you do is assert them. You state in different ways that you believe what you do because you "like it." I care about what is true even if I don't like it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God.I would argue that this statement is not entirely accurate. I'm not sure how to comment. Can you explain why you think my statement is inaccurate? Thanks Others have already answered this question in my stead. However, to reiterate what they have said, beliefs are not a matter of choice. People believe what makes the most sense to them at any given point in time. Things tend to make more sense to a person if the cultural/social influences around them are conducive of those things making sense. Things are especially more readily acceptable as making sense if a person is indoctrinated from childhood to believe those things make sense. Even if a person goes through a period of questioning, the pressure of cultural/societal influences combined with childhood indoctrination is usually enough to push said person back to a position of belief, with the added (but false) satisfaction that said person chose to believe after critical examination. Sound familiar? Before I answer, could you make a list or explain what you mean by childhood indoctrination? Thanks Don't be lazy, Ironhorse. A simply google search of "childhood indoctrination" will yield the answers you need. I did not word my question well. I wanted to know if he was his view on parents teaching their children a particular religious belief and what he specifically disagreed with and viewed as damaging or incorrect. I understand the meaning of indoctrination as teaching or inculcating a doctrine, principle, or ideology, especially one with a specific point of view: IH, you are splitting hairs and dodging the issue. It doesn't matter which doctrines the Proffess thinks are damaging when people are indoctrinated into them. The point is that hearing something over and over from childhood, even if everyone else around you thinks it's true, does not make it true (doesn't even make it likely). You indicate that you understand this but yet you insist that there is some underlying issue that the Proffessor needs to address. There isn't. He has made his point. You are dodging the fact that you refuse to admit the strong likely hood, if not certainty, that the only reason you believe what you do is because you have been indoctrinated by a cultural majority. You have claimed many times that you arrived at your conclusions through skepticism. You have not. Perhaps you have on minor doctrinal points. Perhaps you have questioned your core beliefs before. I think you have or you would not be here. But you have been lead back to your indoctrination because it is what is comfortable. You have no convincing logical argument for your beliefs. All you do is assert them. You state in different ways that you believe what you do because you "like it." I care about what is true even if I don't like it. I think IH threw in this latest dodging-the-issue post in an attempt to draw attention away from a more recently raised issue. That is, I think what he's dodging at the moment is squaring his idea that God "took a chance"/gambled in giving humans free will with the Bible clearly indicating that God is omniscient. QUESTION FOR IRON HORSE -- right here, right now: Did God take a chance OR is God omniscient? You can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 QUESTION FOR IRON HORSE -- right here, right now: Did God take a chance OR is God omniscient? You can't have it both ways. Interesting how reminiscent this line of thought is to the paradox "can god create a rock he cannot lift?" Rather surprised you would go there, Iron Horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Did God take a chance OR is God omniscient? Christian answer: Yes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God.I would argue that this statement is not entirely accurate. I'm not sure how to comment. Can you explain why you think my statement is inaccurate? Thanks Others have already answered this question in my stead. However, to reiterate what they have said, beliefs are not a matter of choice. People believe what makes the most sense to them at any given point in time. Things tend to make more sense to a person if the cultural/social influences around them are conducive of those things making sense. Things are especially more readily acceptable as making sense if a person is indoctrinated from childhood to believe those things make sense. Even if a person goes through a period of questioning, the pressure of cultural/societal influences combined with childhood indoctrination is usually enough to push said person back to a position of belief, with the added (but false) satisfaction that said person chose to believe after critical examination. Sound familiar? Before I answer, could you make a list or explain what you mean by childhood indoctrination? Thanks Don't be lazy, Ironhorse. A simply google search of "childhood indoctrination" will yield the answers you need. I did not word my question well. I wanted to know if he was his view on parents teaching their children a particular religious belief and what he specifically disagreed with and viewed as damaging or incorrect. I understand the meaning of indoctrination as teaching or inculcating a doctrine, principle, or ideology, especially one with a specific point of view: IH, you are splitting hairs and dodging the issue. It doesn't matter which doctrines the Proffess thinks are damaging when people are indoctrinated into them. The point is that hearing something over and over from childhood, even if everyone else around you thinks it's true, does not make it true (doesn't even make it likely). You indicate that you understand this but yet you insist that there is some underlying issue that the Proffessor needs to address. There isn't. He has made his point. You are dodging the fact that you refuse to admit the strong likely hood, if not certainty, that the only reason you believe what you do is because you have been indoctrinated by a cultural majority. You have claimed many times that you arrived at your conclusions through skepticism. You have not. Perhaps you have on minor doctrinal points. Perhaps you have questioned your core beliefs before. I think you have or you would not be here. But you have been lead back to your indoctrination because it is what is comfortable. You have no convincing logical argument for your beliefs. All you do is assert them. You state in different ways that you believe what you do because you "like it." I care about what is true even if I don't like it. No, I am not dodging the issue. Indoctrination is teaching a particular viewpoint. There are different things taught depending on the goals of the authority in charge. For example I would consider the following bad indoctrination: -Being taught never to read any books that teach opposite of what you must believe. -Being taught never to question anything written by our group. -Being taught never to oppose or question the authority. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 19, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 19, 2014 jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true ask questions jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true jesus is true Does this help you see my point, Ironhorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 It's ironic that IH quotes Orwell in his signature when it's clear he hasn't got a clue what Orwell was saying about indoctrination. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I agree with you on Congress. I would add they allow hunger, injustice and poverty because of their idiotic federal programs and intervention. Ironhorse You mean the donations US gives to curtail poverty in third world countries? Or the programs in this country to assist the impoverished? Or both? Exactly which ones are idiotic? bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 "-Being taught never to read any books that teach opposite of what you must believe. -Being taught never to question anything written by our group. -Being taught never to oppose or question the authority." Ironhorse on indoctrination. And yet you believe the bible is the Word of God? So, it's ok to question the authenticity of the bible? To question its accuracy? To question its consistency? Is it ok to come up with non-christian conclusions on these issues? You rarely answer my questions for some reason. How about giving this try? bill 0 " In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a rev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 ... No, I am not dodging the issue. ... Sure you are. It's one of your better developed skills. Dodging, passive-aggresiveness, pretending not to understand, "look over there". You're a master at obfuscation. Apparently, you have found it to be a successful defense mechanism. Tell us that part again about how you, when you were only 12 years old, surrounded by your Baptist minister father, your mother and other addicts of a particular Christian cult, accepted indoctrinated theism, specifically that you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. Do tell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 IH, you are missing the point. The issue is not your judgement on whether a particular indoctrination is good or bad. The issue is whether or not the content of the indoctrination is actually, objectively true. Do you not agree that people have a strong tendency to believe the things they were taught in childhood, whether or not they are true? Do you not see the strong likelihood that you believe what you do because of your upbringing? No matter how much you say that your parents taught you to question, even if they really did, if they were Christians and raised you around a Christian environment, then you are either naive or dishonest to think that your upbringing had no influence on your current state of beliefs. I was raised in a Christian environment, and believed it wholeheartedly for over 20 years. I had all the "life changing" experiences of salvation, filling of the holly spirit, etc. But, I came to a place where I decided to look at it all objectively, putting aside my own bias toward the belief that it's true. I came to the conclusion that it is all man-made, that there is no evidence that it's actually true. It's a comforting and emotionally helpful frame work for many people, true enough. But that does not make the supernatural claims for Christianity actually true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 IH, you are missing the point. The issue is not your judgement on whether a particular indoctrination is good or bad. The issue is whether or not the content of the indoctrination is actually, objectively true. Do you not agree that people have a strong tendency to believe the things they were taught in childhood, whether or not they are true? Do you not see the strong likelihood that you believe what you do because of your upbringing? No matter how much you say that your parents taught you to question, even if they really did, if they were Christians and raised you around a Christian environment, then you are either naive or dishonest to think that your upbringing had no influence on your current state of beliefs. I was raised in a Christian environment, and believed it wholeheartedly for over 20 years. I had all the "life changing" experiences of salvation, filling of the holly spirit, etc. But, I came to a place where I decided to look at it all objectively, putting aside my own bias toward the belief that it's true. I came to the conclusion that it is all man-made, that there is no evidence that it's actually true. It's a comforting and emotionally helpful frame work for many people, true enough. But that does not make the supernatural claims for Christianity actually true. “Do you not agree that people have a strong tendency to believe the things they were taught in childhood, whether or not they are true?” Yes “ Do you not see the strong likelihood that you believe what you do because of your upbringing?” If you mean what I believe today, no. I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. I do agree that for some people the answer would be yes. I guess I could go so far as to say many people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. It is such a shame that you do not listen to your parent's teaching. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. It is such a shame that you do not listen to your parent's teaching. I did listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. It is such a shame that you do not listen to your parent's teaching. I did listen. And yet here you are enslaved to a cult that you do not question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. It is such a shame that you do not listen to your parent's teaching. I did listen. And yet here you are enslaved to a cult that you do not question. It could be that he feels he has asked enough questions and found that the easy answers from Christian apologetics were satisfying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. It is such a shame that you do not listen to your parent's teaching. I did listen. And yet here you are enslaved to a cult that you do not question. That is your opinion. It is not what I think of myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. It is such a shame that you do not listen to your parent's teaching. I did listen. And yet here you are enslaved to a cult that you do not question. That is your opinion. It is not what I think of myself. Your evasiveness strongly suggests that my opinion is fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important thing they taught me was to question everything. It is such a shame that you do not listen to your parent's teaching. I did listen. And yet here you are enslaved to a cult that you do not question. That is your opinion. It is not what I think of myself. Your evasiveness strongly suggests that my opinion is fact. Do you not agree that when we get to this point, the two sides of the coin will never ring together in agreement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Do you not agree that when we get to this point, the two sides of the coin will never ring together in agreement? I don't ask you to give up your faith. All I ask is that you be honest and admit when you don't have evidence, don't want evidence or choose to ignore evidence. You wish to pretend that you questioned your faith but when asked about it you point to your leap of faith. A leap of faith is not skepticism. It is not questioning your beliefs. Stand tall and admit that facts are not for you. You want nothing to do with them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Do you not agree that when we get to this point, the two sides of the coin will never ring together in agreement? I don't ask you to give up your faith. All I ask is that you be honest and admit when you don't have evidence, don't want evidence or choose to ignore evidence. You wish to pretend that you questioned your faith but when asked about it you point to your leap of faith. A leap of faith is not skepticism. It is not questioning your beliefs. Stand tall and admit that facts are not for you. You want nothing to do with them. I admit, I don't any physical evidence I can place before you on a table. I will even agree that there are passages in the Bible that are troubling and I don't understand. I just believe that the Rebel from Nazareth was telling the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I just believe that the Rebel from Nazareth was telling the truth. The closest thing we have to a historical Jesus was a man who wan't a rebel, wasn't from Nazareth and lived about 200 years before Paul. He was Jewish. Not a Jewish Christian, not a "completed" Jew, not a Jew who converted to Christianity. He was a traditional Jewish Rabi who would have opposed Christianity as a false teaching and idolatry. A myth can't tell the truth because it wasn't real. The stories we have about Jesus of Nazareth are fabrications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 Do you not agree that when we get to this point, the two sides of the coin will never ring together in agreement? Yet you insist on staying on this website, Ironhorse. For what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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