The Big Question

[directionless]

 

 

The Buddhist convert might say:

1. "I can't say its The Truth, but it's a spirituality and lifestyle that works for me. You might get something out of it, too."

2. "I think it's The Truth for the following reasons:  ...  "

 

Why, oh why, Ironhorse, won't you come clean?  Which is your take on your Christianity?  Please make clear.  If your take is like 2. above, let's have your reasons.  So far, I don't think you can articulate ANY, since you've been dodging this and other questions for some time now.

 

Are you actually just trolling?

 

A troll?

 

Ah...I remember when it was once referred to as flaming 

 

Definition from wikipedia:

In Internet slang, a troll  is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

 

 

-I have explained my "take" on Christianity.

 

-I am keeping it clear.

 

-I have stated my reasons.

 

-I have not been dodging questions.

 

-Though not in your statement above, I have been warned that lurkers are watching.

 

I agree guests are reading these threads. I'm not worried about that. I'm glad people

are reading the posts.

 

 

I'm not pleading for people to agree with my views. I'm here to express my views and to

agree with others when I can and post a opposing views when I disagree.

 

I'm not here to "flame" what a person believes on matters of faith or non-faith.

 

OK, I accept that you either have no reasons for your faith commitment or that you refuse to state them.  

 

I'm out, until I see something substantive.  Waste of my time.

 

Amen, I think it's discouraging that IH dodged your straight-forward question about his reasons for practicing Christianity by claiming that he is not a troll because "I have not been dodging questions".

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

 

IH, you are missing the point. The issue is not your judgement on whether a particular indoctrination is good or bad. The issue is whether or not the content of the indoctrination is actually, objectively true. Do you not agree that people have a strong tendency to believe the things they were taught in childhood, whether or not they are true? Do you not see the strong likelihood that you believe what you do because of your upbringing? No matter how much you say that your parents taught you to question, even if they really did, if they were Christians and raised you around a Christian environment, then you are either naive or dishonest to think that your upbringing had no influence on your current state of beliefs.

 

I was raised in a Christian environment, and believed it wholeheartedly for over 20 years. I had all the "life changing" experiences of salvation, filling of the holly spirit, etc. But, I came to a place where I decided to look at it all objectively, putting aside my own bias toward the belief that it's true. I came to the conclusion that it is all man-made, that there is no evidence that it's actually true. It's a comforting and emotionally helpful frame work for many people, true enough. But that does not make the supernatural claims for Christianity actually true.

“Do you not agree that people have a strong tendency to believe the things they were taught in childhood, whether or not they are true?”

 

Yes

 

 

“ Do you not see the strong likelihood that you believe what you do because of your upbringing?”

 

If you mean what I believe today, no.

 

I agree my parents influenced my beliefs in childhood, but I know the most important

thing they taught me was to question everything.

 

I do agree that for some people the answer would be yes. I guess I could go so far as to say many people.

Your answer to the second question is incorrect. I know this by virtue of the fact that you are human. Your current state of beliefs has been and is influenced by your upbringing. That is true for everybody, even us apostates. The degree to which we continue to let our childhood teachings influence us is the difference. I'm sure your specific doctrinal beliefs differ greatly from your parents. But your core beliefs that god exists and that Jesus is his way of salvation are directly informed by your upbringing. You did not discover these teachings. They were given to you. I'm not being presumptuous; you have admitted as much. Therefore, the fact that you believe your belief in them is not influenced by your upbringing shows your naiveté.

I know you have many of us to address so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you aren't ignoring the quoted post.

 

I thank you for answering my questions directly. I would like your response to my above comment and this question. Do you really think it is just coincidence that your conclusion that Christianity is true just happens to be the same conclusion your parents hold, and that your upbringing had no influence on it? You have all but directly stated as much. If you don't think your upbringing has any influence on your current state of beliefs, then you have cleverly lied to yourself to the point you believe it which shows that you are naive.

[ironhorse]

 

 

I venture to say that nobody ever becomes a Christian based on evidence and logic, as there is none. It is always emotionally driven. Fear, peer pressure, group psychology and social needs are the things that keep the religion alive. People come up with "logical" arguments and "proofs" after they have committed to the belief. Of course these arguments and proofs are faulty as they strain logic and twist facts in order to support a belief based necessarily on blind faith.

I would say some have become Christians by they "perceive" as evidence and logic.

 

"It is always emotionally driven. Fear, peer pressure, group psychology and social needs are the things that keep the religion alive."

 

I agree this is true for some people. I don't know how many. I don't believe it is true for all.

 

My motivation was a search for truth. It was driven by my mind. Fear was not a factor to me nor peer pressure, group psychology

or social needs. I did my rethinking of Christianity alone.

 

And again, I will say, yes, I cannot present concrete scientific evidence that Christianity is true.

It's my belief.

Do you really think that it's just coincidence that your conclusion that Christianity is true happens to be the same conclusion your parents hold, and that your conclusion was totally un-influenced by your upbringing? You have all but directly stated as much. You know better than that IH. If you really don't think so, then you have lied to yourself to the point you actually believe it. If you really don't think so, then you are naive.

 

I will be so bold as to make an assumption that I'm pretty sure is true to some degree. You are here conversing with us non-believers because you have significant doubts about Christianity, and you are trying to convince yourself that you have just as good or better of an argument for Christianity as we have against it. You'll deny this, but if you are honest with yourself, I think you'll find that you have buried these doubts very deep and you just refuse to acknowledge them.

 

 

 

My answer here, I hope, will clear these accusations that I am a troll or a Christian

on the brink of non-faith. 

 

You may or may not agree with my belief but I am not dishonest to myself.

 

Here's my reply:

 

I don't have much about me on my profile.

 

Here's what I do have posted about me:

 

Operated a Christian coffee house for 15 years that allowed Christian and secular bands/artist to perform. We were not popular with most of the area churches, but the place was packed on Saturday nights. Also operated a street mission out of the same building during this time. 

 

Here's some more info:

 

I think it was a unique Christian coffee house for several reasons:

 

-I never brought up Christianity unless I was asked.

 

-Smoking cigarettes was allowed. This was the 90s remember. 

 

-I never said a word if people spoke profanity.

 

-Sometimes people would come in smelling of beer or pot. I never said anything to him.

 

-Journals were on tables for young adults to write or express their thoughts.

 

-We kept a marker in the canteen. People were allowed to write on the walls or do art.

 

-We had a table piled with religious books from various religions. People were welcome

to read them. They could take them home.

 

-Christianity and religion did come up in conversations partly because people could not

believe it was a Christian coffee house.

 

-I spent time discussing this with many people through the years.People of non-belief

or other religions. Wica was popular with some young adults I met.

 

-We held Bible studies or discussions on Sunday evenings.

 

Also, This is not my first forum.  I am active on several online forums. None of them are

Christian forums.

 

I don't know if you remember when Creed was the most popular band in the world, but their official site had

some extremely active forums. My experience with communicating in forums began there in their

Faith/Religion Forum. That forum was eventually shut down. There are a few fan forums still active.

I post on one of them every week.

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

 

 

I venture to say that nobody ever becomes a Christian based on evidence and logic, as there is none. It is always emotionally driven. Fear, peer pressure, group psychology and social needs are the things that keep the religion alive. People come up with "logical" arguments and "proofs" after they have committed to the belief. Of course these arguments and proofs are faulty as they strain logic and twist facts in order to support a belief based necessarily on blind faith.

I would say some have become Christians by they "perceive" as evidence and logic.

 

"It is always emotionally driven. Fear, peer pressure, group psychology and social needs are the things that keep the religion alive."

 

I agree this is true for some people. I don't know how many. I don't believe it is true for all.

 

My motivation was a search for truth. It was driven by my mind. Fear was not a factor to me nor peer pressure, group psychology

or social needs. I did my rethinking of Christianity alone.

 

And again, I will say, yes, I cannot present concrete scientific evidence that Christianity is true.

It's my belief.

Do you really think that it's just coincidence that your conclusion that Christianity is true happens to be the same conclusion your parents hold, and that your conclusion was totally un-influenced by your upbringing? You have all but directly stated as much. You know better than that IH. If you really don't think so, then you have lied to yourself to the point you actually believe it. If you really don't think so, then you are naive.

 

I will be so bold as to make an assumption that I'm pretty sure is true to some degree. You are here conversing with us non-believers because you have significant doubts about Christianity, and you are trying to convince yourself that you have just as good or better of an argument for Christianity as we have against it. You'll deny this, but if you are honest with yourself, I think you'll find that you have buried these doubts very deep and you just refuse to acknowledge them.

My answer here, I hope, will clear these accusations that I am a troll or a Christian

on the brink of non-faith.

 

You may or may not agree with my belief but I am not dishonest to myself.

 

Here's my reply:

 

I don't have much about me on my profile.

 

Here's what I do have posted about me:

 

Operated a Christian coffee house for 15 years that allowed Christian and secular bands/artist to perform. We were not popular with most of the area churches, but the place was packed on Saturday nights. Also operated a street mission out of the same building during this time.

 

Here's some more info:

 

I think it was a unique Christian coffee house for several reasons:

 

-I never brought up Christianity unless I was asked.

 

-Smoking cigarettes was allowed. This was the 90s remember.

 

-I never said a word if people spoke profanity.

 

-Sometimes people would come in smelling of beer or pot. I never said anything to him.

 

-Journals were on tables for young adults to write or express their thoughts.

 

-We kept a marker in the canteen. People were allowed to write on the walls or do art.

 

-We had a table piled with religious books from various religions. People were welcome

to read them. They could take them home.

 

-Christianity and religion did come up in conversations partly because people could not

believe it was a Christian coffee house.

 

-I spent time discussing this with many people through the years.People of non-belief

or other religions. Wica was popular with some young adults I met.

 

-We held Bible studies or discussions on Sunday evenings.

 

Also, This is not my first forum. I am active on several online forums. None of them are

Christian forums.

 

I don't know if you remember when Creed was the most popular band in the world, but their official site had

some extremely active forums. My experience with communicating in forums began there in their

Faith/Religion Forum. That forum was eventually shut down. There are a few fan forums still active.

I post on one of them every week.

Useless and irrelevant information!! It doesn't clear up a damn thing. This information does absolutely nothing to prove anything you have claimed about yourself. Way to completely refuse to answer my question IH! This post proves that you either do dodge our questions or you just don't read them. Go back and reread my post above and answer the question. If you don't want to be accused of dodging, then answer questions when you respond to posts.

[directionless]

Ironhorse, I was arguing earlier that other members were treating you unfairly, but now I have changed my mind. You've obviously been ignoring the questions that aren't in line with your talking points - a bit like a politician. Sounds like you've been evangelizing for a long time and that's all you are trying to do here. People here are nothing but potential points on your evangelizing scorecard. That kind of attitude is really rude IMO.

 

Not that you care, but I'm going to ignore your posts from now on.

 

Sorry if that sounds mean. Maybe you are a very fine person, but I'm not interested in listening to a preacher.

[SquareOne]

You can't "choose" what to believe.  That is utterly absurd.

 

I can try as hard as I want, but I can't choose to believe I am an apricot.

 

Beliefs are involuntary.

 

We can choose what material we expose ourselves to, which will influence our beliefs, but the notion of choosing to believe something is true is just patently absurd.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I grant that Ironhorse has made some attempts to defend the Bible, as, for example, on my now-locked Garden of Gethsemane thread back in April:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/61569-gethsemane-gospel-disparities/page-5#.U_eDevldXUU

 

When those attempts and the associated retreat to websites like CARM were torn apart, IH ended up asking typical go-nowhere questions.  

 

The best I can do to understand IH's REASONS is to suppose that he takes the gospel accounts as reliable because, as he thinks, they trace back to eyewitness reports.  He shows no ability to think critically about that position or to defend it against challenges.

 

After that thread, and many others, IH continues to repeat the same assertions, when he offers anything positive at all.  But they've already been either refuted or held up to question.  His repetitions, then, don't count as further defenses.  

 

Aide:  "General Ironhorse, our forces are being defeated!"

IH: "Send in the ten reserve divisions from the other side of the Jordan!"

Aide:  "Um, but, General, those divisions aren't operational.  They've all been killed or run away."

IH: "Send in the ten reserve divisions from the other side of the Jordan!"

 

So at this point, IH is offering no operative reasons for the faith commitment that he "preaches" on here.  I would welcome and participate in something thought-through and serious, but we're not getting that.  

[christophercomplex]

Is there any way my account can be restored, or at least let me post in the lions den.

[mymistake]

 

You may or may not agree with my belief but I am not dishonest to myself.

 

 

 

You wouldn't know honesty if it bit you in the ass.

 

 

Ever since you got here you have been contradicting yourself, back peddling, changing your story, dodging questions, changing the subject, all while asserting that fantastic magic is real because you believe it.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Is there any way my account can be restored, or at least let me post in the lions den.

 

Not likely. Why not just shake the dust off of your feet and go your own way?

[mymistake]

Is there any way my account can be restored, or at least let me post in the lions den.

 

 

Why are you asking mortals?  Shouldn't you be asking Jesus?  He already knows what you want and he has already decided how He will answer before you even ask but Jesus enjoys begging all the same.

[RipVanWinkle]

Ironhorse: How old were you when you started the Christian coffee house?   bill

[sdelsolray]

I grant that Ironhorse has made some attempts to defend the Bible, as, for example, on my now-locked Garden of Gethsemane thread back in April:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/61569-gethsemane-gospel-disparities/page-5#.U_eDevldXUU

 

When those attempts and the associated retreat to websites like CARM were torn apart, IH ended up asking typical go-nowhere questions.  

 

The best I can do to understand IH's REASONS is to suppose that he takes the gospel accounts as reliable because they trace back to eyewitness reports.  He shows no ability to think critically about that position or to defend it against challenges.

 

After that thread, and many others, IH continues to repeat the same assertions, when he offers anything positive at all.  But they've already been either refuted or held up to question.  His repetitions, then, don't count as further defenses.  

 

Aide:  "General Ironhorse, our forces are being defeated!"

IH: "Send in the ten reserve divisions from the other side of the Jordan!"

Aide:  "Um, but, General, those divisions aren't operational.  They've all been killed or run away."

IH: "Send in the ten reserve divisions from the other side of the Jordan!"

 

So at this point, IH is offering no operative reasons for the faith commitment that he "preaches" on here.  I would welcome and participate in something thought-through and serious, but we're not getting that.  

Perhaps this behavior is what Ironhorse means when he says he is here, in part, to participate in "discussions".

[moanareina]

 

 

I don't know if you remember when Creed was the most popular band in the world, but their official site had

some extremely active forums. My experience with communicating in forums began there in their

Faith/Religion Forum. That forum was eventually shut down. There are a few fan forums still active.

I post on one of them every week.

 

 

Yeah, sorry, don't remember that. I thought it was Guns'n Roses and AC/DC, Metallica, Iron Maiden...and Nirvana...in my part of the world. And if you speak of Christian bands it has been Petra, Stryper, White Cross, Bloodgood, The Bride...then Torniquet, Deliverance...

Creed? Ehm, yeah, heard of them, a guy from my youth group had a t-shirt...but most popular? Nope, sorry to disappoint you.

 

Another great example of how Ironhorse sees the world through his Christian indoctrination having the God goggles on.

 

I guess you honor them with your lovely Sunday Dispatch...YEY. I am sure they appreciate it as we do here. not.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

** Reads latest posts from IH.  Shakes head. **

[Ravenstar]

Creed?   rotflol

[Neverlandrut]

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

[ironhorse]

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

 

 

I guess you did misunderstand.

 

Creed was one of the biggest rock bands in the world for a few short years in the late 90s.

They never claimed to be a Christian band, but like U2, the band did have Christian members and many of their songs

were drenched in spiritual images and themes.

 

Wind-Up Records Official website for the band had forums that were really active.

 

Like this site they had several sub forums...one was titled Faith/Religion.

 

They suddenly took the forums down without giving members much notice.

Some members started alternative fan sites. A few of them are still active.

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

I guess you did misunderstand.

 

Creed was one of the biggest rock bands in the world for a few short years in the late 90s.

They never claimed to be a Christian band, but like U2, the band did have Christian members and many of their songs

were drenched in spiritual images and themes.

 

Wind-Up Records Official website for the band had forums that were really active.

 

Like this site they had several sub forums...one was titled Faith/Religion.

 

They suddenly took the forums down without giving members much notice.

Some members started alternative fan sites. A few of them are still active.

I am well aware of who Creed was. I was a big fan back in the day! Funny how you quickly jumped to respond that post but you still have not answered my question from the previous one. All the while you still maintain that you aren't dodging. Lie!!!

 

I will remind you that you responded to my post with irrelevant information without even addressing the question.

[ironhorse]

 

 

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

 

I guess you did misunderstand.

 

Creed was one of the biggest rock bands in the world for a few short years in the late 90s.

They never claimed to be a Christian band, but like U2, the band did have Christian members and many of their songs

were drenched in spiritual images and themes.

 

Wind-Up Records Official website for the band had forums that were really active.

 

Like this site they had several sub forums...one was titled Faith/Religion.

 

They suddenly took the forums down without giving members much notice.

Some members started alternative fan sites. A few of them are still active.

I am well aware of who Creed was. I was a big fan back in the day! Funny how you quickly jumped to respond that post but you still have not answered my question from the previous one. All the while you still maintain that you aren't dodging. Lie!!!

 

 

 

What is the question?

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

 

 

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

I guess you did misunderstand.

 

Creed was one of the biggest rock bands in the world for a few short years in the late 90s.

They never claimed to be a Christian band, but like U2, the band did have Christian members and many of their songs

were drenched in spiritual images and themes.

 

Wind-Up Records Official website for the band had forums that were really active.

 

Like this site they had several sub forums...one was titled Faith/Religion.

 

They suddenly took the forums down without giving members much notice.

Some members started alternative fan sites. A few of them are still active.

I am well aware of who Creed was. I was a big fan back in the day! Funny how you quickly jumped to respond that post but you still have not answered my question from the previous one. All the while you still maintain that you aren't dodging. Lie!!!

What is the question?

God damn it IH!! You responded to it with useless background info about yourself without even addressing the question! Go back and read my last few posts in this thread. It should not take you two minutes to see the question. I made my points and question perfectly clear.

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

 

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

I guess you did misunderstand.

 

Creed was one of the biggest rock bands in the world for a few short years in the late 90s.

They never claimed to be a Christian band, but like U2, the band did have Christian members and many of their songs

were drenched in spiritual images and themes.

 

Wind-Up Records Official website for the band had forums that were really active.

 

Like this site they had several sub forums...one was titled Faith/Religion.

 

They suddenly took the forums down without giving members much notice.

Some members started alternative fan sites. A few of them are still active.

I am well aware of who Creed was. I was a big fan back in the day! Funny how you quickly jumped to respond that post but you still have not answered my question from the previous one. All the while you still maintain that you aren't dodging. Lie!!!

What is the question?

God damn it IH!! You responded to it with useless background info about yourself without even addressing the question! Go back and read my last few posts in this thread. It should not take you two minutes to see the question. I made my points and question perfectly clear.

 

 

 

It's late here. I'm off for some sleep.

 

I will check and see in the morning. I will try to answer your question.

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

I guess you did misunderstand.

 

Creed was one of the biggest rock bands in the world for a few short years in the late 90s.

They never claimed to be a Christian band, but like U2, the band did have Christian members and many of their songs

were drenched in spiritual images and themes.

 

Wind-Up Records Official website for the band had forums that were really active.

 

Like this site they had several sub forums...one was titled Faith/Religion.

 

They suddenly took the forums down without giving members much notice.

Some members started alternative fan sites. A few of them are still active.

I am well aware of who Creed was. I was a big fan back in the day! Funny how you quickly jumped to respond that post but you still have not answered my question from the previous one. All the while you still maintain that you aren't dodging. Lie!!!

What is the question?

God damn it IH!! You responded to it with useless background info about yourself without even addressing the question! Go back and read my last few posts in this thread. It should not take you two minutes to see the question. I made my points and question perfectly clear.

 

It's late here. I'm off for some sleep.

 

I will check and see in the morning. I will try to answer your question.

Classic dodge!! If that is true, then there was no need to say so. You could have simply not responded until tomorrow. Everyone can read this stuff and see you're dodging little pony. The way to avoid being accused of it is to answer questions when you respond to posts with questions in them.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

I may have misunderstood, but is little pony labeling Creed as a Christian band? I seem to remember Mark Tremonti saying, "We aren't a fucking Christian band!"

I guess you did misunderstand.

 

Creed was one of the biggest rock bands in the world for a few short years in the late 90s.

They never claimed to be a Christian band, but like U2, the band did have Christian members and many of their songs

were drenched in spiritual images and themes.

 

Wind-Up Records Official website for the band had forums that were really active.

 

Like this site they had several sub forums...one was titled Faith/Religion.

 

They suddenly took the forums down without giving members much notice.

Some members started alternative fan sites. A few of them are still active.

I am well aware of who Creed was. I was a big fan back in the day! Funny how you quickly jumped to respond that post but you still have not answered my question from the previous one. All the while you still maintain that you aren't dodging. Lie!!!

What is the question?

God damn it IH!! You responded to it with useless background info about yourself without even addressing the question! Go back and read my last few posts in this thread. It should not take you two minutes to see the question. I made my points and question perfectly clear.

 

 

 

It's late here. I'm off for some sleep.

 

I will check and see in the morning. I will try to answer your question.

 

 

This should be interesting!

[moanareina]

 

It's late here. I'm off for some sleep.

 

I will check and see in the morning. I will try to answer your question.

 

 

Haha...as you always do...not.

 

I guess the Holy Spirit appears to you in your dreams and tells you to do the forum stuff for you and the next day you wake up convinced that the answers have been given and you go and be like: What? Where have I not answered your question?