Castiel233 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Most of us I am sure have heard the tired argument that atheists are immoral, wicked, etc. We are told of Hitler’s atheism (which isn’t true). We are reminded of the horrors caused by Stalin (true enough but he was a maniac because he was a maniac, not because he was an atheist. Firstly what is morality in their eyes. Moral values are given by God, through His writers and written down in His Holy Book. This morality can be called Objective Morality, as it independent of human belief and comes from God. As this God commands us to do quite terrible and violent things and we refuse to do them, we are therefore (correctly) objectively immoral in a Yahweh centred world. Christians also of course ignore these moral values in The Bible they also find repulsive. We can say these Christians are much more objectively immoral, as they ignore the morals given to them (objectively) and they actually ignore them either on purpose or through ignorance. So now we can look at subjective moral values (shared as a society and also held as individuals). Overwhelming atheists do not fly planes into buildings, they do not murder journalists, and they have not historically burnt others at the stake. So on a subjective level; I say that as non believers we are very moral. Then of course there is the old argument of where do we get our morals from, if they haven’t been handed down from Heaven. Culture is a big start, shared values, evolution and our own innate sense of right and wrong. Gotcha screams the believer. It’s innate and therefore Deity inspired. What about a crocodile then. They care for their young, they defend their nesting eggs, and they carry their new born carefully in their mouths. They also eat people and pretty much anything else that can get their teeth into. Given this is an apex hunter, built for killing, why do they care for their offspring. Has Jesus inspired their hearts, or is it a natural result of evolution. Then of course unable to defend the dreadful morality in both OT and NT, believers often ask, what is the point to life, if we do not live forever. Well what is the point of a dog’s life, cats, or a horse? How about an ant, or a wasp, or a tiger shark. Are their lives meaningless because they do not live after death? Apes are close to us, they do not live forever, what was the point in God making them, or indeed any other animal. Why not just make man and woman and leave the rest alone. Why are we given so little evidence yet demanded to have so great faith. How much easy it would have been to give us so much evidence and we would have needed just a little faith. I am going out for lunch now, typos(if any) to be corrected later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I was once told I can not have morals because I am an Atheist. As if the word moral is owned by christianity. I pointed out I do not kill, rape, steal, I treat others as equals, etc etc, but I still was never "given" the right to say I am a morally upright citizen by this christian. Hell, my diet is even Kosher (accident of being vegetarian). They agreed I am a "good" person, but I could not get them to remove religious influence from the word "morality"... I think many christians think that word, no matter its meaning, belongs to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 It simply illustrates the way Christianity controls Christian thinking. There was a time when I believed the same. Becoming an atheist was the only way I could realize that my ideas about atheism were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 My response to the assertion that Atheist aren't moral is that, in fact, I am more moral than the christian god. I don't believe it is okay to commit genocide, enslave people, or make young virgin prisoners of war your wife against their will. And, instead of killing homosexuals I think they should be treated with respect and have equal rights with everyone else. If you want to talk about the new testament, I don't think it is okay to oppress women or neglect my family while I put some imaginary god first or send someone to be tortured indefinitely just because they didn't believe in me. Regarding the christian statement that morals only come from god, Wikipedia has a good article on the evolution of morals here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Christians are usually surprised at my anser: The problem with "no morals" arguments is Christians. Not for the reasons they think it is, they get defensive thinking I'm going to point out the small percent of cheating pastors, etc. Nope, quite the opposite. Take your average Christian, take their god away, and you will not see them start to rape, kill, pillage, destroy things, or any other immoral acts. They are their own worst argument for the situation. The apologetic circularity I used to go to to defend how good with God is better than good without God, truly makes my head spin. The truth is Christians and others don't do moral acts to avoid Hell. They as much as say so themselves: for them they say it's a response to Christ. But exactly how immoral were most of them beforehand? Most their testimonies are ones of leaving a Christian home, flouting the rules a bit, and reengaging after they grew up. Excuse me, found the Lord. Or, that they had a religious experience that made them feel so much better. They are their own worst argument. They don't need atheists to prove it. Because they are not, and were not, immoral. The only way they could bring themselves to that conclusion is to do what the feminist SJW's do on Tumblr, and reinvent meanings for words. So adultery doesn't mean adultery anymore, they change it to mean any sexual thought. Never mind what that actually says about victims of betrayal. Murder isn't murder anymore, all you have to do is think angry throughts about someone and you're a murderer. Never mind what that says about the victims of murder. Their god simply cannot tell the difference between thought crime and the real thing. "Of course he can!" they may say, and posit it's a heart issue. All right, but he can't tell in any meaningful way. Torture forever and ever for even the slightest infraction, made up by the deity himself. This is not a meaningful way to tell the difference between right and wrong. Ironically this is part of my problems with the zero-tolerance laws / philosophies of the moral do-gooders: it removes the emergent property of judgment, meaning use of our internal difference engine to understand contexts, to weigh and measure things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Hmmm from observations and it's well documented that in fact those of the abrahamic religions are the most immoral, unethical, snakish, vile and abhorrent pond scum that has ever infected this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Hmmm from observations and it's well documented that in fact those of the abrahamic religions are the most immoral, unethical, snakish, vile and abhorrent pond scum that has ever infected this world. The man holding the knife is not an atheist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 When I was a Xtian I asked an atheist "Where do you get your morals?" I was thinking about the 10 commandments, and didn't think much farther. I understand why they ask, because I asked. I'm still not entirely sure I could articulate a non-Bible based way of morality. I think that tells of the absolute power of the brainwashing. I was brainwashed to the point that I couldn't even conceive of non-Biblical morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Christianity has a lot of immoral baggage that they need to unload before ever criticizing others. Log in your own eye and all that. In Christianities case it's a fucking forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 George Bush is not an atheist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I was once told I can not have morals because I am an Atheist. As if the word moral is owned by christianity. I pointed out I do not kill, rape, steal, I treat others as equals, etc etc, but I still was never "given" the right to say I am a morally upright citizen by this christian. Hell, my diet is even Kosher (accident of being vegetarian). They agreed I am a "good" person, but I could not get them to remove religious influence from the word "morality"... I think many christians think that word, no matter its meaning, belongs to them. Thankfully you are probably not moral. Ancient christians used their morality to kill 10's of thousands of people over the centuries. they enslaved women and children, made martyrs out of many. they stole they plundered they raped. yet christians have the balls to say they are moral following the long moral tradition of their faith. wake up christians you follow a murder and a liar, but the real issue is that they follow all this in an entity that is fake to begin with. they can keep their morality and I will continue to use ethics to address the world and those in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I find myself becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the concept of morality. From a religious, absolutist standpoint, it seems to me to amount to no more than what the self styled "moral" person believes to be right. From a non-religious, relativist standpoint, it seems to me to amount to no more than what the self styled "moral" person believes to be right. In other words, whether our values are shaped by religion, by culture, by our own prejudices or our own thought processes, in the main we tend to be pretty convinced that our own moral values are right simply because they are the values that we hold. It all becomes rather circular. So I've tried to think along the lines of taking the road that causes the least harm and acknowledging responsibility where harm is done. Of course, I might be accused of adopting that as my morality - and that it is, from my standpoint, that which I, as the equivalent of the self styled "moral" person, believe to be right. Like a circle and a spiral and wheel within a wheel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I stopped caring about the argument between subjective morality and "objective" morality when I realized a critical flaw: It's not subjective vs. objective, it's subjective and admits to it vs. subjective and in denial about it. Almost all Christians hold a moral standard that is subjective to their own understanding. Ask them if they believe it would be OK if God came down and tortured a random loved one to death and they will almost always respond "God would never do something like that!" and in doing so admitting that morality is a concept that is higher than God. Believing that they get their morality from a so-called "objective source" doesn't make their morality objective for the same reason that believing you can fly unassisted will not cause you to magically sprout wings out of your ass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 If I were George W. Bush, I don't think I would ever be able to sleep a night after the disaster of the Iraq war. But I'll bet he sleeps like a baby. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 If I were George W. Bush, I don't think I would ever be able to sleep a night after the disaster of the Iraq war. But I'll bet he sleeps like a baby. bill Of course he sleeps well, the Lord has his back and he is going to Heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 I stopped caring about the argument between subjective morality and "objective" morality when I realized a critical flaw: It's not subjective vs. objective, it's subjective and admits to it vs. subjective and in denial about it. Great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 George Bush is not an atheist God that makes me sick! im so sorry! You are not responsible for the actions of a nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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