Jesus' Prophecy Of End Times Can't Apply To Today

[♦ ficino ♦]

I've posted a couple of threads about things in the gospels that are just implausible.

 

Here's another.  Fundamentalists take Jesus' prophecies about the End Times to refer to a period yet to come.  I won't go into Hal Lindsay's The Late Great Planet Earth and all the end-times prophecy interpretations that I've heard for the last 40 years. 

 

Let's just look at Mark 13.  

 

1. verse 9:  Jesus says, "You will be beaten in synagogues."

 

What is the situation presumed by this sentence?  It presumes an early Church that is a spinoff from a Judaism that is becoming hostile.  To apply this to a time near our own, you either have to suppose that Christian missionaries are going to be beaten by Jews all over the place - unlikely - or redefine "synagogues" so it doesn't mean "synagogues."

   I could go on with "You will be arraigned before governors and kings." Obvious scene envisoned is Palestine under Roman domination with client kings.  today ... well, doesn't really cut it.  

 

2. verse 14: Jesus says, "those in Judea must flee to the mountains."  This really doesn't apply to Christians witnessing in the world today.  Why should Jesus be talking about the end times, when the gospel shall have gone out to all the earth, and then limit his focus to Judea?

 

 

So, "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."  Fail.

 

 Oh, wait, I forgot - in fundy speak, words don't mean what they mean.  "This generation" doesn't mean "this generation."

 

Sarcasm aside, the references to a context of people persecuted by Jews in Judea clearly puts the imagined scenario in Roman Palestine.  Not in any milieu of today or of any plausible future.

[ironhorse]

ficino,

 

I totally disagree with the Dispensational interpretation of the end times.

My father was did believe in the Dispensational view. I had doubts when I heard

it preached or read books like Lindsey's on the secret rapture and how one man will 

control the entire world. Would the Chinese ever submit to a word leader. I think not.

 

I studied it, read the scriptures over, found a few good books with opposing views.

I had some good debates with my father on this. He told me I was taking the wrong view.

We finally had to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I now view the Partial Preterism as correct. It holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and of "judgment-coming" were fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" with Rome.Many Christians did flee the city.

 

Since then we have been living in the last days.

 

What is significant today is that Israel is once again a nation

and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians.

[Orbit]

"and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians."

 

Current news events do not bear this out. Atheists are in more danger of persecution than Christians.

[ironhorse]

"and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians."

 

Current news events do not bear this out. Atheists are in more danger of persecution than Christians.

 

 

I think you should check and see if that is a correct statement.

[Orbit]

A recent poll puts atheists and gays on the same footing when asking people if they would consider voting for them. (42% vs in the 90s for all other social categories, including race.

 

Ask any ex-C on this board why they are not "out" as an atheist. It's because we might lose jobs, livelihoods, it's a very casual persecution, but it's real.

[ironhorse]

A recent poll puts atheists and gays on the same footing when asking people if they would consider voting for them. (42% vs in the 90s for all other social categories, including race.

 

Ask any ex-C on this board why they are not "out" as an atheist. It's because we might lose jobs, livelihoods, it's a very casual persecution, but it's real.

 

 

I agree that atheists and homosexuals are sometimes discriminated against

but I was referring to religious persecution.

 

Have you heard what has been occurring more and more frequently to Christians in North Korea, parts of Africa,

the Middle East?

 

Israel is under rocket attack now.

[Orbit]

 

"and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians."

 

Current news events do not bear this out. Atheists are in more danger of persecution than Christians.

Christians in Iraq and in many Middle Eastern countries today. Palestinian Christians are victims of the violence between Palestinians and Jews. Christians and Jews were frequently persecuted in communist countries until recent decades, and some still are. Wherever Islam is dominant, anyone of another faith is in potential danger of being persecuted. (Not only Christians, but people of other religion as well.) We have a skewed view of the world from America.

 

Maybe I don't understand the context of the point about Christians and Jews not facing increased persecution.

 

Which news sources?

 

I was referring to the US, where I live.

[ironhorse]

 

 

"and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians."

 

Current news events do not bear this out. Atheists are in more danger of persecution than Christians.

Christians in Iraq and in many Middle Eastern countries today. Palestinian Christians are victims of the violence between Palestinians and Jews. Christians and Jews were frequently persecuted in communist countries until recent decades, and some still are. Wherever Islam is dominant, anyone of another faith is in potential danger of being persecuted. (Not only Christians, but people of other religion as well.) We have a skewed view of the world from America.

 

Maybe I don't understand the context of the point about Christians and Jews not facing increased persecution.

 

Which news sources?

 

I was referring to the US, where I live.

 

 

Understood.

[Orbit]

 

A recent poll puts atheists and gays on the same footing when asking people if they would consider voting for them. (42% vs in the 90s for all other social categories, including race.

 

Ask any ex-C on this board why they are not "out" as an atheist. It's because we might lose jobs, livelihoods, it's a very casual persecution, but it's real.

By "persecution," I thought you meant people being tortured, sold into slavery, forced into war, and murdered. Those things are happening in many places in the world.

 

Gee, if you hadn't told me that, I never would have known. What do you think happens to an atheist in a Muslim country?

[sdelsolray]

…

 

I now view the Partial Preterism as correct. It holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and of "judgment-coming" were fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" with Rome.Many Christians did flee the city.

 

Since then we have been living in the last days.

 

What is significant today is that Israel is once again a nation

and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians.

So, which "prophesies" have not yet occurred in your version of Partial Preterism?

[pratt]

 

A recent poll puts atheists and gays on the same footing when asking people if they would consider voting for them. (42% vs in the 90s for all other social categories, including race.

 

Ask any ex-C on this board why they are not "out" as an atheist. It's because we might lose jobs, livelihoods, it's a very casual persecution, but it's real.

 

 

 

I agree that atheists and homosexuals are sometimes discriminated against

but I was referring to religious persecution.

 

Have you heard what has been occurring more and more frequently to Christians in North Korea, parts of Africa,

the Middle East?

 

Israel is under rocket attack now.

did u know they persecute against other religions too? not just christianity. Could it be the christians in these countries are more dickheads compared to others?

 

isreal is under rocket now because they keep sending fucking rockets to palestine or claiming that the land of milk and honey is theirs because yhwh says so?

[ironhorse]

 

…

 

I now view the Partial Preterism as correct. It holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and of "judgment-coming" were fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" with Rome.Many Christians did flee the city.

 

Since then we have been living in the last days.

 

What is significant today is that Israel is once again a nation

and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians.

So, which "prophesies" have not yet occurred in your version of Partial Preterism?

 

 

 

Now that Israel has returned and the increase in persecution and

a "falling away" from the truth. Plus, the Gospel is being heard, not only by missionaries, but throughout the world through mass media and the internet.

 

None

[mymistake]

 

 

…

 

I now view the Partial Preterism as correct. It holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and of "judgment-coming" were fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" with Rome.Many Christians did flee the city.

 

Since then we have been living in the last days.

 

What is significant today is that Israel is once again a nation

and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians.

So, which "prophesies" have not yet occurred in your version of Partial Preterism?

 

 

 

Now that Israel has returned and the increase in persecution and

a "falling away" from the truth. Plus, the Gospel is being heard, not only by missionaries, but throughout the world through mass media and the internet.

 

None

 

 

 

So 20 years from now when Jesus has still not returned what will be your explanation then?  And 40 years from now when Jesus still have not returned how will you explain that?

[BrotherJosh]

 

 

 

…

 

I now view the Partial Preterism as correct. It holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and of "judgment-coming" were fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" with Rome.Many Christians did flee the city.

 

Since then we have been living in the last days.

 

What is significant today is that Israel is once again a nation

and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians.

So, which "prophesies" have not yet occurred in your version of Partial Preterism?

 

 

 

Now that Israel has returned and the increase in persecution and

a "falling away" from the truth. Plus, the Gospel is being heard, not only by missionaries, but throughout the world through mass media and the internet.

 

None

 

 

 

So 20 years from now when Jesus has still not returned what will be your explanation then?  And 40 years from now when Jesus still have not returned how will you explain that?

 

I was going to respond to IH and then remembered! He has plenty of questions to answer in another thread...conveniently with his name in the title. His inability to even respond to a thread with his username in the title is revealing of his character. It's not pretty. 

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/64259-ironhorse-not-answered-your-questions-put-them-here-for-all-to-see/

[mymistake]

 

I was going to respond to IH and then remembered! He has plenty of questions to answer in another thread...conveniently with his name in the title. His inability to even respond to a thread with his username in the title is revealing of his character. It's not pretty. 

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/64259-ironhorse-not-answered-your-questions-put-them-here-for-all-to-see/

 

 

 

But you have got to believe that IH is not being dishonest with himself!  Because you've got to believe it!!   

[rach]

Fascinating points ficino.  Never thought of any of that.  We were told at church that it was a future prophecy and could not fail so we all expected it.  They said the Jews would convert en masse to Christianity and then they'd be worshipping from synagogues but they'd be worshipping Jesus Christ.  This is after "their eyes would be opened to the truth" and then they will not be able to resist worshipping Jesus even under the threat of torture.  Because, see, all Jews are blind right now  . 

[♦ ficino ♦]

Dispensationalist fundamentalists, as I know dimly remember, may say that there will be some Jews who convert to Jesus as Messiah in the last days.  So these believing Jews could indeed be persecuted by other Jews and therefore, be beaten in synagogues in the future, as Jesus is portrayed as saying.

 

The above sort of explanation relies on importing a huge, ad hoc assumption that is not in the text.  It's always possible to spin Bible verses by importing as many ad hoc assumptions as needed.  

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

I now view the Partial Preterism as correct. It holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and of "judgment-coming" were fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" with Rome.Many Christians did flee the city.

 

Since then we have been living in the last days.

 

What is significant today is that Israel is once again a nation

and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians.

The interpretation of "the last days" as the age of the Church indeed is very old.  Unlike the dispensationalist interpretation, it has other problems, the most glaring being:  what's "last" about almost 2000 years and counting, compared to at most three years of Jesus' ministry and another few decades until the Roman sack of Jerusalem?  Second glaring thing is that the signs that Jesus gives of his imminent return are things that have been happening since the first century.  Earthquakes, wars, etc are not new.  So nothing in this prophecy is a predictor.

 

You do not say of what the nationhood of Israel and your claimed "increasing persecution" of Jews and Christians is significant.  Your last paragraph slips into vestigial dispensationalist thinking.

 

But I can see why.  The parts of Mark that your partial preterism says were fulfilled by the Romans go up to 13:14, no?  I.e. "when you see the abominable and destructive presence standing where it should not be" refers to the Romans in the Holy of Holies.  Right after that, those in Judea are told to flee to the mountains.

 

Then, do we get indication that Jesus' time frame switches from 1st cent CE to a distant future "End Times"?

 

No.  Immediately after injunctions about fleeing quickly, Jesus is portrayed as saying, "Those times will be more distressful than any between God's work of creation and now, and for all time to come" (13:20).  Immediately he goes into talk about false messiahs and false prophets who perform signs and wonders and mislead many (v. 21-22), and "during that period" the sun will be darkened, moon not shed its light, etc.

 

To what does Jesus refer by the phrases "those times" and "during that period"?  There is no marker in the text of a switch to a distant future, as I said.  In Greek, "that/those" usually refers to something farther away.  In a passage of text, it thus generally refers to something previously mentioned, which is more remote from the immediate sentence than "this/these."  What's been previously mentioned are the Judean persecutions and trials that you, Ironhorse, accept as fulfilled in the 1st cent.

 

The WHOLE PASSAGE forms a seamless temporal narrative.

 

It is only by defining things through very narrow, Christian glasses that one could say that the trials of the Jews under the Romans in 68-72 CE were more distressful than any in all of history before or since.  Did the Jews suffer more then than they did under Nazism?  Resoundingly, NO.  The Romans were fine with Jews in many other parts of the empire who remained loyal, and they worked with the Pharisees/rabbis who did not join the revolt.

 

I'm guessing that you'll just say that you disagree.  To admit that Jesus' prophecy is a failure would shake your entire faith.  Perhaps you'd want to consider, though, a form of Christianity in which Jesus is a great teacher but has human limitations.  You may want to expand on your earlier admissions that the Bible isn't inerrant.  It might help lead ultimately to a richer spirituality and life, IH.

[florduh]

...and the increasing persecution of Jews and Christians.

 

That is hilarious.

[moanareina]

Ironhorse

 

This might be interesting to you...because it is not Christians per se but whoever disagrees with islam who is persecuted in the islamic dominated area of this planet. Pretty much like Christians did in Europe in the past...

 

http://www.rferl.org/content/afghanistan-sikh-minority/26539541.html

 

From the article:

 

 

"But on top of everything else, we face many other problems just for being 'different' because of our religious beliefs"

 

The persecution does not just happen to Christians. It happens to everyone who is not in line with their believe system. Now if I was atheist and a muslim would threaten to kill me but leave the option to convert to islam and save my life, sure I would convert to islam...not in my heart but just as a pretense. Now as a Christian doing so would be betrayal of your faith and God and so you rather get your head chopped off than convert...And I guess the same applies to any religion that claims to have the whole truth and the only truth.

 

 

 

Sikhs and Muslims for centuries lived peacefully side by side in Afghanistan. 

Some blame the increasing intolerance toward Sikhs and Hindus on "extremist elements" who have moved from the provinces to Kabul and other cities in recent years.  

Ahmad Saeedi, a former professor of political science at Kabul University, says the original city dwellers have always been tolerant as they grew up in an ethnically diverse place. 

In the 1970s there were estimated to have been more than 150,000 Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan. Many were engaged in successful businesses, owned shops, and their children studied in universities.  

However, more than three decades of military conflict have prompted many to leave.

Thousands of Sikhs and Hindus migrated to India in the 1980s after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. 

A second wave of migration followed in the 1990s, prompted by infighting between various jihadi groups after the collapse of the communist regime.

There are now only around 4,000 Sikhs and Hindus living in the country of more than 30 million. 

The majority of Sikhs who have remained in Afghanistan are impoverished people, who struggle to make ends meet. 

Singh lives with his wife and their daughter in a two-room apartment in an old, two-story building, not far from one of Jalalabad's two Sikh temples. 

The city is home to a nearly 700-strong Sikh community.  

"Out of Jalalabad's nearly 160 Sikh families, only five live in a relative comfort," Singh says.

Singh has heard about the group of Afghan Sikh asylum seekers who were discovered inside a metal shipping container in Britain on August 16.

The migrants' dangerous journey, which left one of them dead inside the metal box, doesn't surprise Singh. 

Nor does he believe the death of the man will stop other potential asylum seekers from taking the same risks.

"In our community, only those who have no money have remained in Jalalabad," Singh says. "Anyone who can afford to leave wouldn't stay here."

 

I think this kind of intolerance happens due to many psychopathic people damaged by previous wars.

 

Another interesting article about a region that has been in war and has lots of people damaged from war. 

 

http://www.rferl.org/content/mercenaries-extremists-become-major-balkans-export/26532364.html

 

When I think about war and see the headlines and discussions about the death toll it takes I am actually more concerned about the people still living. Because they are the ones who are traumatized and have to continue a life under unbearable circumstances. That is the perfect breeding ground for religious extremism.

[Thackerie]

 ... Israel is under rocket attack now.

 

 

Oh boo-hoo-hoo. The number of Isreali casualties from rocket fire is no where near the vast number of Palestinian civilians murdered by Israel.