Cerise Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Well nobody likes to think that they'll never see their loved ones after they are dead. But it does force you to appreciate their precence while they are still around, doesn't it? Not having second chances makes you try harder the first time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted January 16, 2006 Author Share Posted January 16, 2006 that is true death does in a way make you think about things after my grandma died i regretted i didnt see or talk to her as much as i used too. so now i talk to my family as often as i can. i expecially talk to my grandpa im shure its harder on him than it is on me. Well nobody likes to think that they'll never see their loved ones after they are dead. But it does force you to appreciate their precence while they are still around, doesn't it? Not having second chances makes you try harder the first time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I don't have time to read the whole thread, so I'll just give my basic overview. And if you recognize any part of this, it's because I'm paraphrasing from John Dill. We have no choice but to trust our five senses. To not trust them would be to abandon any form of function as a person, because if you tried to act on the assumption that what you were seeing, hearing, and feeling was not reality, then you would be incapable of acting. You wouldn't respond to people, because according to your worldview, they wouldn't be there. You couldn't walk away from them, because according to a worldview that denies the five senses, the floor is not there. If you walked away, then you would be immediately assuming that the five sense are reliable. We trust the five senses, because we have to. There's no other option. They are the foundation for all other assumptions. So when a Christian selects his Biblically-based worldview, he is selecting something that he detected with at least two of his five senses. The Christian has no choice but to trust what he has seen and heard, just as we have. The difference between us and Christians is that we don't play this hop-back-and-forth game between rationalism and faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 How exactly would the existence of a creator, or the supernatural, or psychic friends serve to make humanity into "more"? I could just as quickly make arguments as to why these things would make humanity into less. It all depends on your perspective. Cerise, leaving the creator, the supernatural, or our psychic friends out of this... I'm just saying IF we could possibly enhance our presently hidden inate abilities yielding such as remote viewing and telepathy, wouldn't this make us greater than we consider ourself now? As I said, that would probably take multi-milleniums to evolve and develop that. However, with our current emphasis on genetic engineering... maybe it could manifest much more quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Cerise, leaving the creator, the supernatural, or our psychic friends out of this... I'm just saying IF we could possibly enhance our presently hidden inate abilities yielding such as remote viewing and telepathy, wouldn't this make us greater than we consider ourself now? As I said, that would probably take multi-milleniums to evolve and develop that. However, with our current emphasis on genetic engineering... maybe it could manifest much more quickly. You entering the area of thoughts that I had last year while reading the sci-fi books by Isaac Asimov (The foundation series). In the end they encounter this planet Gaia, where people have reached a level of interconsciousness, without losing their unique identities, and they took better care of the planet and each other. Because they could see the value of each other, the world and the individual instantaneously. The decisions didn't come from one person in the top, but from the combined intelligence they all had together. They worked as individuals and as a unit. And in the end, this new kind of humans were the ones that would replace the rest of the humanity. For the sake of saving humanity and protecting the galaxy from future possible invaders. So long story short, I think we would benefit, but the way there, even if we had the ability right now, would be long, hard and probably filled with danger. Without the ability, it's hard to say. In 20 years when the first conscious and self-aware computers are made, and when we start downloading our minds into the internet, maybe we'll get there faster than we think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 We trust the five senses, because we have to. There's no other option. They are the foundation for all other assumptions. So when a Christian selects his Biblically-based worldview, he is selecting something that he detected with at least two of his five senses. The Christian has no choice but to trust what he has seen and heard, just as we have. Hi Mr. Neil! Leaving Christian/Bible stuff out of this, let me ask you this. The very first life form did NOT have 5 senses, right? These senses evolved into our being. (It would be interesting to know which chronolgical order each of these evolved.) It probably took a long time to evolve to their present state. I'm just trying to say that we MAY have other abilities that could be in the process of evolving now. As our other five senses initially evolved, we did not have a rational brain. I'm wondering IF there are extra senses that could potentially manifest, what effect is a rational mind refusing their possibility and existence have on this process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Leaving Christian/Bible stuff out of this, let me ask you this. The very first life form did NOT have 5 senses, right? These senses evolved into our being. (It would be interesting to know which chronolgical order each of these evolved.) It probably took a long time to evolve to their present state. I'm just trying to say that we MAY have other abilities that could be in the process of evolving now. As our other five senses initially evolved, we did not have a rational brain. I'm wondering IF there are extra senses that could potentially manifest, what effect is a rational mind refusing their possibility and existence have on this process? And the skill of language (IIRC) is believed to have developed only about 10,000 years ago. (I might be wrong here, but that's what I remember) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 And the skill of language (IIRC) is believed to have developed only about 10,000 years ago. (I might be wrong here, but that's what I remember) Just guessing the chronological order of evolution, 1. touch 2. taste 3. hearing 4. sight 5. smell 6. language I think that because it seems fairly logical to me if we initially came out of the ocean. Although, I guess some animals can smell in the water, right? Sharks? What do you think HanSolo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Amanda, did you see my earlier response? http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=131514 I think some of the senses probably developed simultaneous. Just the way our brain have gone in different stages. The eye did so too. And there's the possibility that the earlier life forms had certain traits that died out or got disabled in the genes and later got reactivated. You're probably right, some fish smell in water. Isn't that what they say about sharks that they can smell the blood far away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I'm wondering IF there are extra senses that could potentially manifest, what effect is a rational mind refusing their possibility and existence have on this process? Wendyshrug.gif Evolution being an ongoing process ... yes , extra senses could come up . However since they have not there really is no point debating about them . It is currently impossible to define something outside of the five senses we have right now . Trying to discuss anything based on the possibility of a sixth sense is on the same lines as discussing the possibility that an invisible red monkey eye floats above everyones heads in the 18th dimension . Our minds dont exactly refuse the possibility of their existance they just simply dont understand a sense we dont have until it is obtained . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Hi Mr. Neil! Heddo! My, you've got quite a mouthful here. I'm not exactly sure how to answer it, but we'll give it a whirl. Leaving Christian/Bible stuff out of this, let me ask you this. The very first life form did NOT have 5 senses, right? These senses evolved into our being. (It would be interesting to know which chronolgical order each of these evolved.) It probably took a long time to evolve to their present state. I'm just trying to say that we MAY have other abilities that could be in the process of evolving now. As our other five senses initially evolved, we did not have a rational brain. I'm wondering IF there are extra senses that could potentially manifest, what effect is a rational mind refusing their possibility and existence have on this process? Well, I was simply replying to the title of the topic. I was referring to the five senses as a medium between our self awareness and the world around us. We trust them, because we have no choice to do otherwise. If we were to abandon our base of reality on the five senses, then it affects our ability to function. But that's not answering what you're saying here, so let's continue. What effect is a rational mind refusing their possibility and an existence have? None. I would say that merely saying that they're a possibility and not a fact, that it immediately becomes a choice to believe that they may exist. I may be missing the point of the question, but if I understand you correctly, then that's my answer. If we don't even know if they exist, then it becomes optional to accept their possibility at all. But I also caution that denying their existence, if we cannot access them or if they are not immediately obvious to us, is not the same as denying their reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mj's damaged Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I am assuming that you are asking why do xian's say that they feel, hear, see, taste, smell God? Let me try to explain. Xian's say they feel god..Have you ever been in a movie or heard someone sing and it touched you in such a way that you got goose bumps? That's how they feel god. He gives them goose bumps. he he. Now to the hearing god...harder to describe. I have yet to find one xian that has heard god audibly yet. You know, that still small voice that tells you to or not to do something. We call it our conscience. Xians call it god. Now in order to smell, see or taste him I believe you have to be on drugs to even say that. Why would you taste a god anway. Are xians trying to eat their god? I have heard some xians say that god taste's like honey. Wait, wait, wait. God being sweet? I thought that he was sending all sinners to hell. That's not sweet. That's bullshit. So god should taste like shit. Since Jesus and God was made up in the middle-east and since it's the opium capital of the world then I now understand why xians say they can see, taste, smell, hear, feel god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 ok explain this: my sister who is 14 said: 1.at age 3 she predicted dads death a day before it happened 2.predicted my grandmas death 3 days before 3.talks to dad and a grandfather she knew as a baby 4.when my grandma was alive she dreamed one time her daughter would call woke up saw her daughter in a vision with a blue shirt and pants. her daughter called and grandma asked what she was wearing? a blue shirt and pants. 5. before grandma died before she even got sick she gave me some stuff and said this is to rember me by. 6. when i was little i seen shadows moving around and heard voices is my whole family insane, magic trick people, liars what? I bet your sister makes lots of predictions. You just remember the ones that worked out. This is the way the human mind works. It attempts to create patterns amongst chaos. Additionally, when these stories are retold and recalled, we naturally add details to them that were not there. People tend to exagerate for whatever reason; a lot of the reasons are completely innocent and related to our human psychological make up. Demand extraordinary evidence to verify extraordinary claims Willy, otherwise you are going to go through life believing every ghost story, every fantastic silly notion, every National Enquirer/Jonathan Edwards-type shill that is being sold to those without developed bullshit detection skills. You can either be someone who lives in reality and accepts things for how they are, or you can live in a fantasy world where anything is possible and where people can sell you any old line. It's up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 that is true death does in a way make you think about things after my grandma died i regretted i didnt see or talk to her as much as i used too. so now i talk to my family as often as i can. i expecially talk to my grandpa im shure its harder on him than it is on me. Now you're getting it! Seriously, willy, that's wonderful. That's what life is all about. I know this 'no afterlife' thing is hitting you kind of hard, but you don't have to have an 'either/or' mentality (either there's god and ghosts and spirits or we all just stop existing and never see each other again). There is a hell of a lot we don't know about the universe, as well as our own consciousness. Just try thinking of the whole thing as unknowable and hope for the best. And in the meantime, make the most of your life and the people you care about. Try and relax, and enjoy life as much as you can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Well said AGF, eat, drink, live, be happy, because even with a religion, you might go to hell anyway, so do the best with what you do have, instead of planning for the things you don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I am assuming that you are asking why do xian's say that they feel, hear, see, taste, smell God? Let me try to explain. Xian's say they feel god..Have you ever been in a movie or heard someone sing and it touched you in such a way that you got goose bumps? We get that. Most of us were once there. What we are arguing is that this is an unreliable method of determining a god's existance. Chemicals can influence your feelings, a bump on the head can influence feelings. I have experienced the same god feelings while listening to secular music, while driving fast, while kissing a girl, etc... Feelings are proof of nothing. Now to the hearing god...harder to describe. I have yet to find one xian that has heard god audibly yet. You know, that still small voice that tells you to or not to do something. We call it our conscience. Xians call it god. Now in order to smell, see or taste him I believe you have to be on drugs to even say that. Why would you taste a god anway. Are xians trying to eat their god? I have heard some xians say that god taste's like honey. Wait, wait, wait. God being sweet? I thought that he was sending all sinners to hell. That's not sweet. That's bullshit. So god should taste like shit. Since Jesus and God was made up in the middle-east and since it's the opium capital of the world then I now understand why xians say they can see, taste, smell, hear, feel god. Yeah, xtians hear god when their inner desires need to be justified. There is a hell of a lot we don't know about the universe, as well as our own consciousness. Just try thinking of the whole thing as unknowable and hope for the best. And in the meantime, make the most of your life and the people you care about. Try and relax, and enjoy life as much as you can! Excellent advice AGF, which I would do well to take to heart myself. For some reason I'm still obsessed with this no after life issue even though I've been an atheist for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPillAddict Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Some scientist believe that we are creating our own universe/reality. In some ways, as we develop concepts in which to define it, we are creating it. What we believe it to be is our reality. It is said that when we see an electron, it changes by us looking at it! It may seem to be this little speck that rotates around the nucleus on it's own specal covalence, but now they think it is really everywhere all at once! That would certainly lend itself to the idea of interconnectedness. Einstien claimed that all this is an illusion, but a very persistent one. Could we in essence be gods, creating the universe as we determine it to be by defining it? And there are more of those scientists today. SFS and Amanda, you added to the idea in a good ways. Thanks. Talking about wormholes. They are seriously looking into hyperdrive propulsion now. To go to Mars in one day. To the Moon in a few hours. I thought that was just sci-fi (and it might still be), but it's a serious idea now, not StarTrek anymore. Yah, isnt that awesome? I cant even imagine where we will be in 20 years. i just find it impossible to believe all we are is a wrinkly spongie muscle in a bodie come on we got to be more than this. if thats all we are were no better than a computer. our brains a tower and our bodies a monitor and if the towers destroyed were gone. are we that weak and fragile? do you know how weak that idea makes us look? What are dogs, cats, mice, frogs, ants, lions, gorillas, fish, birds, etc? Just because we have the mental capabilities to think otherwise, doesnt mean we are any different. We are all made of the same elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 First, I'd like to say Welcome to this site MJ's Damaged and Mushroom Man! I hope to see you more in the many discussions! Mr. Neil and others... I will suggest that to consider to validate an extra sensory possibility is to drastically think out of the box for most scientists, by definition. The good ones have their accomplished reputation at stake, and the up and coming ones don't want to ruin their chances. As I can see in many of these intellectually inclined posters here, it gets dismissed without consideration. I've listed some sites that seem to have some credible resources, and no one has probably even glanced at them. It seems we are noticing capabilities that are now being developed in an initial phase by credible researchers. I think that should we begin recognizing these capabilities valid with a critical mind, then start teaching them to our children at a younger age, who knows where these may go? If nothing else, please glance at these last two sites below: http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377..._telepathy.html http://www.zak.co.il/deaf-info/old/telepathy.html http://www.crviewer.com/ http://skepdic.com/morphicres.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 SFS, did you know that this hyperdrive is based on an old idea that still hasn't been proven? The idea is from the 50's, and it's the thought that electromagnetism and gravity are related! So we're talking about antigravity here!!! Friggin' awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 The good ones have their accomplished reputation at stake, and the up and coming ones don't want to ruin their chances. As I can see in many of these intellectually inclined posters here, it gets dismissed without consideration. I've listed some sites that seem to have some credible resources, and no one has probably even glanced at them. That is a very strong characterization of science that some might call "spin." Ideas with merit, especially profound ideas such as you suggest, could be career making, not career breaking for a scientist. It would be best if you backed up your accusations against the scientific community with some statistics or other evidence before you make claims that hurt the reputation of the field and help your cause. That said, I think sixth sense development is an interesting idea. I will check out your links to get an idea what your are actually claiming here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sofia Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Amanda, Are you practicing CRV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I think it is very interesting to note how a simple shift in neurochemicals can entirely change how we percieve the world. Our sensory organs can still function during these shifts, but they seem to pick up data that they normally do not pick up. And the mind itself seems to think/feel/perceive differently in these states. In my personal experience, I have experienced things that cannot really be explained by a pure, hard-materialist view (other than in a delusion sense). Some of these have been quite random, and some have been induced by certain substances. In reading the experiences of others (www.erowid.com) I have come to realize that our entire perception and understanding of reality is highly dependent on our nuerological makeup at any given time. From my research into spiritual traditions and practices, I have come to the conclusion that all spiritual disciplines and practices are geared towards these neurochemical shifts. From tantra, to insight meditation, to fasting, to worship music, to masochism. All of these affect our physiology, and likely our neurochemistry, and therefore affect our perception of reality on some level. This is why people have 'religious' experiences to music, or other forms of media. Back in the tribal days, shamans would fan flames and beat drums in time, in order to induce a trance state in the villagers. Nowadays, we go to Raves. This whole phenomena seems to correlate directly to our human ability to concentrate, or become absorbed in the perception of a single object to the exclusion of all else. When this happens, religious experiences result. From a sneeze to an orgasm, this happens all the time with varying levels of intensity and duration. Anyway, perhaps there are 'objects' of concentration which can trigger certain nuerotransmitters which allow for such things as perceptions of ghosts, spirits, gods, etc. Perhaps one can concentrate on one's own awareness faculty and have a profound experience of 'awareness'. Perhaps one can concentrate on one's 'knowing' faculty and have profound experiences of 'knowingness' which can be directed in ways that appear intuitive, prophetic or psychic. I don't know, but I've had some experiences which open up the realm of possibilities a bit. Oh well, enough with my delusional ramblings!! take care everybody _/\_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 The good ones have their accomplished reputation at stake, and the up and coming ones don't want to ruin their chances. As I can see in many of these intellectually inclined posters here, it gets dismissed without consideration. I've listed some sites that seem to have some credible resources, and no one has probably even glanced at them. That is a very strong characterization of science that some might call "spin." Ideas with merit, especially profound ideas such as you suggest, could be career making, not career breaking for a scientist. It would be best if you backed up your accusations against the scientific community with some statistics or other evidence before you make claims that hurt the reputation of the field and help your cause. That said, I think sixth sense development is an interesting idea. I will check out your links to get an idea what your are actually claiming here. Hi Vigile del fuoco 1! I apologize! No offense intended, I assure you! What I was saying, is that scientist like to determine their results by concrete observations. These observations are determined by the verifiable documentation of our 5 senses, and not so much subjective thinking. I know that there can be accepted theories that one can not use the 5 senses, per se, yet these are generally backed up by mathematical support. Considering an extrasensory perception as possible, one would have to go out of the trust of just 5 senses... and there is no mathematical basis either. Most scientist just don't want to go there, because that is not acceptable scientific procedure, is it? And because there may not be the statistical evidence to recognize it and fully define it... they just don't want to be considered floundering around in something that has not been considered a concrete manifestation yet, seemingly subjective thinking. But, does that mean it does not exist? Perhaps it's just being recognized at the tip of a tiny iceberg, revealing itself sometimes only when the waves and ocean level permit? Maybe exploration may reveal all the substance below the surface so we can begin to understand it better. Hey, fwiw, I'm not saying it exists! I have never had such a remarkable talent, I assure you! hehe And no, Sophia , I've never practiced CRV. Have you? Yet, it fascinates me that people seem to be able to do extraordinary things using their mind! Like monks going into a meditative state, put in a small box, lowered into a river for 15 minutes and coming out slowly, but fine! Look at what Rasputin accomplished! It is said that we only use a small percentage of our brain. My... what can the mind actually do!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I think it is very interesting to note how a simple shift in neurochemicals can entirely change how we percieve the world. Our sensory organs can still function during these shifts, but they seem to pick up data that they normally do not pick up. And the mind itself seems to think/feel/perceive differently in these states. As usual, not1not2, I read what you write with complete amazement, and wonder how one could connect noun to verb with apparant belief in the cause and effect relatioship that is presented..... ...but this time it's because I agree with you. What I have to add is suggeting a model for evaluating and utilizing these perceptual shifts. One way of evaluating them would to think of them in terms of functionality, rather than what they "are". Try to find how experiencing these shifts can help pull together and distill thoughts and beliefs to develop a more substantial meaning in life, or for specific questions you may have such as in conversation with spirits and gods, seeing of visions, (etc.). Then, Thinking in terms of utilization, I think it would be generally helpful to all who desire these experiences to set aside times and secure places for doing so in advance to be free of distractions and be alone, or with sympathetic people. Also, to do these things when you feel a need to do so, and with full awareness what that need is. For example, if you have a question, know it well and have it articulated beforehand. If you just want to get caught up in the wonderment of it all, to maybe save money on DVD rentals, know that too. I say these last two things because in my experiences, intentionality was all important in getting a satisfying result. time to go to work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I agree, of what utility is all this? How practically functional is it? Does it do anything other than warp your own worldview? I could repeatedly ingest dissociative substances in order to have neat experiences, but ultimately who cares. These experiences may or may not prove a dern thing, but understanding them and how they appear to work does help lessen one's own existential confusion. Oh, and I apologise for my apparent absolute assertion of cause/effect. I should simply present things as apparent correlations. However, I think it's safe to say taking LSD and the like does 'cause' a perceptual shift. take care. _/\_ P.S.-And I also agree that we need to be aware of our motivations for doing such things and having such experiences. In fact, I think that's much more important than the experience itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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