Jump to content

The "people Send Themselves To Hell" Argument


Recommended Posts

When backed into a corner regarding the absurdity of hell, an apologetic tactic I have noticed with more frequency over the past few years is to claim that God does not send anyone to hell; people send themselves.  I like to think of ways to use theological argle-bargle against itself to show it doesn't make sense. 

 

For instance: If I have the freedom to willfully send myself to hell without God's help, but do not have the same freedom to willfully send myself anywhere else but hell (also without God's help), then the only thing in the whole universe that God allows me the freedom to do of my all by myself is to damn myself.  That makes no more sense than a knife made to cut being able to cut itself in the act of cutting.

 

All you have to do to send yourself to hell is to be born spiritually dead just as God creates you.  That's why Christianity must make it the victim's responsibilty to get born again. It's like a protection racket.  The thugs are already on their way to break bones and damage the establishment, but you are perfectly free to trade moral currency in exchange for fire insurance.  Not doing something to get out of hell can then be equated with doing something to go there.

You're damned if you do get born and damned if you don't get born again.  It ignores the fact you were already destined for hell by default, not by an after-the-fact refusal to get born again.

The bottom line is, if people were free to keep themselves from going to hell, they wouldn't need a God to do it for them.  The conditions under which freedom operates are either the same for both the "sent and sender" or "damned and damner" or they are different.  The apologist seems to ignore this question in order to blame the victim.  Salvation is then not an answer to a question but a problem to the answer.

 
Anyone have a better way of explaining how this do-it-yourself damnation is a semantic trick?

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An all-knowing (which means he knows the future) god not only creates hell, but willingly creates you in your mother's womb when your future destination is no secret to him. 

 

This all-knowing god cannot, then, by definition, also be omnibenevolent, but a monster more evil than Nero. 

 

He also can't wash his hands and say you sent yourself as he first had to make the choice to create you. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That particular apologetic is undermined by this:

 

Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

Looks to me that God takes an active role in tossing people in hell.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

God loves you so much that He created hell just in case you don't love Him back.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you actually saying that we believe in God because he will send us to hell.  That is absurd we love Jesus!  And the fear of hell is non existant to most Christians lol. --- Encase you didnt get it I was joking.

 

The concept is that it would be better if Jesus did not come as peoples destiny was the Grave - Jesus came and suddenly hell became the topic yet since Jesus decided to leave us virtualy no trace of his existance and only second hand forged accounts at best then how can we be responsible for thinking its all Bull Shit.

 

God can only say that we did not follow Jesus only if he can prove that he has made a reasonable attempt to show us His Jesus which obviously still falls short of the mark for any credibility.

 

Also Yahweh just liked Genocide but he never found pleasure I dont think in an Enternal Hell concept.  Though to be honest being Yahweh its not outside his remit.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That particular apologetic is undermined by this:

 

Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

Looks to me that God takes an active role in tossing people in hell.

I think they get around this by playing a shell game with the definitions of gehenna, hades and the lake of fire.  Christians can think of suffering the consequences of gehenna as either the first death in hades before Jesus was raised or the second death in the lake of fire after Jesus was raised. Jesus paid the penalty of the first death but not the second, but it's hard to tell the difference because Christians equiovocate so much.  Don't have time to look up whether the word in Luke 12:5 is gehenna or hades but translating both simply as "hell" covers up how the trick works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And whose idea was hell in the first place? Gods game, his rules, his hell.

And that's precisely why I think the "people send themselves" argument is the most insulting slap to the face of human intelligence and dignity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An all-knowing (which means he knows the future) god not only creates hell, but willingly creates you in your mother's womb when your future destination is no secret to him. 

 

This all-knowing god cannot, then, by definition, also be omnibenevolent, but a monster more evil than Nero. 

 

He also can't wash his hands and say you sent yourself as he first had to make the choice to create you.

Also, in the case of the children of the people who supposedly drowned in the flood were allowed to be born by God (no natural abortion), killed by God through a horrible method, just because they supposedly would become evil later in life (or their parents were supposedly evil). So in some cases, God seems to have no qualms to act like (or worse than) the crime prevention unit in Minority Report.
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

God loves you so much that He created hell just in case you don't love Him back.

Yup.

 

Actually, worse, just by not believing in his existence, and you're going there.

 

Unless of course God judges based on actions, evil people only go to Hell, well, then Jesus was wrong to save the criminal on the cross next to him. Wendyshrug.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

That particular apologetic is undermined by this:

 

Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

Looks to me that God takes an active role in tossing people in hell.

I think they get around this by playing a shell game with the definitions of gehenna, hades and the lake of fire.  Christians can think of suffering the consequences of gehenna as either the first death in hades before Jesus was raised or the second death in the lake of fire after Jesus was raised. Jesus paid the penalty of the first death but not the second, but it's hard to tell the difference because Christians equiovocate so much.  Don't have time to look up whether the word in Luke 12:5 is gehenna or hades but translating both simply as "hell" covers up how the trick works.

 

There's certainly no lack of excuses that they come up with.

I would add that if predestination is in effect, people don't send themselves to hell.

In that case it's God's sovereign decision.

Given the number of verses showing that God engages in manipulation and sending delusions, their task to keep God squeaky clean becomes much more difficult.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

That particular apologetic is undermined by this:

 

Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

Looks to me that God takes an active role in tossing people in hell.

I think they get around this by playing a shell game with the definitions of gehenna, hades and the lake of fire.  Christians can think of suffering the consequences of gehenna as either the first death in hades before Jesus was raised or the second death in the lake of fire after Jesus was raised. Jesus paid the penalty of the first death but not the second, but it's hard to tell the difference because Christians equiovocate so much.  Don't have time to look up whether the word in Luke 12:5 is gehenna or hades but translating both simply as "hell" covers up how the trick works.

 

There's certainly no lack of excuses that they come up with.

I would add that if predestination is in effect, people don't send themselves to hell.

In that case it's God's sovereign decision.

Given the number of verses showing that God engages in manipulation and sending delusions, their task to keep God squeaky clean becomes much more difficult.

 

 

Verily I say unto thee, that scripture doth not negate the fact that thou willingly hand thyself over to the one who hath power to cast thee into hell. It is all thine own fault!

 

 

 

wink.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, can't remember the location but ... it's said "No one comes to the father except he first draw him ..." or something like that. Makes the Calvinists right and the Pentecostals and others wrong. Interestingly, people will claim God by his nature draws everybody, which makes the aforementioned statement pointless, or at least renders it a distinction without a difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, can't remember the location but ... it's said "No one comes to the father except he first draw him ..." or something like that. Makes the Calvinists right and the Pentecostals and others wrong. Interestingly, people will claim God by his nature draws everybody, which makes the aforementioned statement pointless, or at least renders it a distinction without a difference.

 

I had a Mormon guy sit down and show me how the bible actually does claim (not out of context either) that Jesus really isn't god. (chapter of John 20, or somewhere around there IIRC)

 

The reason there are so many denominations is there are so many loose ends in the bible.  If you don't mind earlier or later contradictions, you can support virtually any claim. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, can't remember the location but ... it's said "No one comes to the father except he first draw him ..." or something like that. Makes the Calvinists right and the Pentecostals and others wrong. Interestingly, people will claim God by his nature draws everybody, which makes the aforementioned statement pointless, or at least renders it a distinction without a difference.

 

At the same time "is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9  Non-Calvinist believers would say that god draws everyone (making the statement of Jesus rather moot) and that nature is testimony to draw them to god (Paul's absurd appeal to nature in Romans). I always tried to make all the verses fit together and "work", but now I see them as the nuances of belief of each writer trying to make his point.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

And, can't remember the location but ... it's said "No one comes to the father except he first draw him ..." or something like that. Makes the Calvinists right and the Pentecostals and others wrong. Interestingly, people will claim God by his nature draws everybody, which makes the aforementioned statement pointless, or at least renders it a distinction without a difference.

 

 

At the same time "is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9  Non-Calvinist believers would say that god draws everyone (making the statement of Jesus rather moot) and that nature is testimony to draw them to god (Paul's absurd appeal to nature in Romans). I always tried to make all the verses fit together and "work", but now I see them as the nuances of belief of each writer trying to make his point.

Exactly! The Bible makes so much more sense when we look at it for what it really is (a collection of writings from different authors with different views and agendas) than when we try to make everything "work" together as if it's perfectly consistent.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one can send themselves to hell. People don't know where hell is or how to get there. Oh, plus it doesn't exist, but...the statement is non-logical. The only way to get to hell is if God sends you there, so yes if you are a believer, God sends people to hell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologists will also claim God didn't create hell for people but for the devil.  I think that assertion is undermined by the fact the Bible calls Jesus the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  Slaying the sacrificial lamb even before creating an earth with its hell below indicates God's original plan was for hell to be the eternal destination for the unsaved.  Technically, people must have been counted as having sinned even before they even existed.  Otherwise, God could have waited around until after the world was created to see whether or not humans would disobey and therefore needed a sacrifice.  The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Conversely, without something to be forgiven, there is no need for a sacrifice. God can't pretend he didn't know creatures already needed forgiveness when he created them. Slaying Jesus before the foundation of the world gave away the game plan from the very beginning.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologists will also claim God didn't create hell for people but for the devil.  I think that assertion is undermined by the fact the Bible calls Jesus the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  Slaying the sacrificial lamb even before creating an earth with its hell below indicates God's original plan was for hell to be the eternal destination for the unsaved.  Technically, people must have been counted as having sinned even before they even existed.  Otherwise, God could have waited around until after the world was created to see whether or not humans would disobey and therefore needed a sacrifice.  The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Conversely, without something to be forgiven, there is no need for a sacrifice. God can't pretend he didn't know creatures already needed forgiveness when he created them. Slaying Jesus before the foundation of the world gave away the game plan from the very beginning.

And what Bible verses do they use to conclude that hell wasn't created for humans?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Apologists will also claim God didn't create hell for people but for the devil.  I think that assertion is undermined by the fact the Bible calls Jesus the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  Slaying the sacrificial lamb even before creating an earth with its hell below indicates God's original plan was for hell to be the eternal destination for the unsaved.  Technically, people must have been counted as having sinned even before they even existed.  Otherwise, God could have waited around until after the world was created to see whether or not humans would disobey and therefore needed a sacrifice.  The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Conversely, without something to be forgiven, there is no need for a sacrifice. God can't pretend he didn't know creatures already needed forgiveness when he created them. Slaying Jesus before the foundation of the world gave away the game plan from the very beginning.

And what Bible verses do they use to conclude that hell wasn't created for humans?

 

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Apologists will also claim God didn't create hell for people but for the devil.  I think that assertion is undermined by the fact the Bible calls Jesus the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  Slaying the sacrificial lamb even before creating an earth with its hell below indicates God's original plan was for hell to be the eternal destination for the unsaved.  Technically, people must have been counted as having sinned even before they even existed.  Otherwise, God could have waited around until after the world was created to see whether or not humans would disobey and therefore needed a sacrifice.  The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Conversely, without something to be forgiven, there is no need for a sacrifice. God can't pretend he didn't know creatures already needed forgiveness when he created them. Slaying Jesus before the foundation of the world gave away the game plan from the very beginning.

And what Bible verses do they use to conclude that hell wasn't created for humans?

 

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

 

Thanks-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Makes you wonder why God created the devil and the angels that would follow the devil.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Makes you wonder why God created the devil and the angels that would follow the devil.

Every good story has its villains, so at least they tried to make the Bible a good story. wink.png

 

 

[Edit: Of course, the real villains in the Bible turn out to be God and his chosen people.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologists will also claim God didn't create hell for people but for the devil.  I think that assertion is undermined by the fact the Bible calls Jesus the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  Slaying the sacrificial lamb even before creating an earth with its hell below indicates God's original plan was for hell to be the eternal destination for the unsaved.  Technically, people must have been counted as having sinned even before they even existed.  Otherwise, God could have waited around until after the world was created to see whether or not humans would disobey and therefore needed a sacrifice.  The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Conversely, without something to be forgiven, there is no need for a sacrifice. God can't pretend he didn't know creatures already needed forgiveness when he created them. Slaying Jesus before the foundation of the world gave away the game plan from the very beginning.

 

Doesn't matter who he created it for, he still made the decision to use it for humans and he knew humans would be there when he created it in the first place. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We keep trying to find the internal logic of this imaginary character. It's like literary criticism. Rather then argue along those lines I would rather attack the foundation and say the Bible isn't true, therefore what the characters in it say or do is moot.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.