Mystical Bible Reading (Kabbalah, Etc.)

[directionless]

A few years ago when I was trying to be a Christian, the Eastern Orthodox priest gave a bible study for several weeks. The sessions always degenerated into joke telling, so we never actually studied the Bible.

 

The priest gave the impression that he wanted to teach us a mystical approach to Bible reading beginning in Genesis and working through the rest of the Torah. He claimed it was really amazing, but as I already mentioned the sessions always turned into joke and story telling instead of Bible study.

 

So I've always wondered if there is anything interesting to be discovered through a mystical reading of the Bible. My priest was probably an atheist, so I can believe he was just lying to us about these supposed profound mystical themes in the Torah.

 

Does anybody know about these mystical approaches to the Bible stories? Usually I've never been impressed with mystical mumbo jumbo, but the priest's claims made me curious.

 

Here is a quote from wikipedia about Kabbalah:

According to adherents of Kabbalah, its origin begins with secrets that God revealed to Adam. When read by later generations of Kabbalists, the Torah's description of the creation in the Book of Genesis reveals mysteries about God himself, the true nature of Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life, as well as the interaction of these supernatural entities with the Serpent which leads to disaster when they eat the forbidden fruit, as recorded in Genesis 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

[florduh]

I guess if it doesn't make sense then it must be "mystical."

[Orbit]

Directionless you could start reading the Torah, the Mishnah, and the Talmud or you could get a book on the Kabbalah but it's not going to help much. It's just an elaborate symbolic system that doesn't make any more sense than what's in the Bible. There's nothing there that would make the Bible true.

[directionless]

I guess if it doesn't make sense then it must be "mystical."

 

Directionless you could start reading the Torah, the Mishnah, and the Talmud or you could get a book on the Kabbalah but it's not going to help much. It's just an elaborate symbolic system that doesn't make any more sense than what's in the Bible. There's nothing there that would make the Bible true.

Thanks, that is what I suspected (that the mysticism is silliness as you both are saying). I was just skimming this wikipedia article on "pardes" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis) )

 

There are some interesting examples, but I'm not impressed with the great wisdom these approaches supposedly reveal.

 

I have been reading "The Ancient Near East: A Very Short Introduction" by Podany. This has given me some insights into the culture.

 

It described how the Sumerians believed humans were created to do the menial labor that the gods didn't want to do themselves (such as working in the fields). So the Garden of Eden story makes sense in that context. (We can't let those humans eat from the tree of life or they will be like us and possibly start a slave revolt.)

 

Last night I was reading about Ur-Nammu the founder of the 3rd dynasty of Ur ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Nammu ). Apparently this king tried very hard to standardize measurements, promote social justice, and generally unify the various cultures of the city states in his empire. He also built massive ziggurats. So that might be the origins of the Tower of Babel story.

[VacuumFlux]

I've tried to read some of the more mystical stuff. A lot of it is just... trippy. Kinda like Ezekiel. It's either boring or entertaining like good sci-fi/fantasy is, and that does have a particularly mind-bending feeling to it when you try to make sense of it all (but I can also get that from some science/math topics and those have the bonus of being real). I suppose it is a rich set of symbolism once you really get into it. But I've never found great insights into anything from it.

[miekko]

Directionless you could start reading the Torah, the Mishnah, and the Talmud or you could get a book on the Kabbalah but it's not going to help much. It's just an elaborate symbolic system that doesn't make any more sense than what's in the Bible. There's nothing there that would make the Bible true.

The Torah, the Mishnah and the Talmud are not particularly Kabbalistic per se, though. The Kabbalah is about 700 years later than the Talmud, and although it is based on the three texts you mention, it does twist its sources up in pretty fascinating ways.

[directionless]

I've tried to read some of the more mystical stuff. A lot of it is just... trippy. Kinda like Ezekiel. It's either boring or entertaining like good sci-fi/fantasy is, and that does have a particularly mind-bending feeling to it when you try to make sense of it all (but I can also get that from some science/math topics and those have the bonus of being real). I suppose it is a rich set of symbolism once you really get into it. But I've never found great insights into anything from it.

For some reason I have never liked the symbolic type of mysticism such as pentagram, tree of life, etc.

 

The type of mysticism that I can appreciate would be inducing altered states of consciousness to supposedly contact the divine. That makes more sense to me.

 

The parallel with science fiction is an interesting observation. I haven't read too much science fiction. I'm a Tolkien fan though. I've been reading some fan fiction on the Henneth Annun story archive that is surprising fun IMO.

[directionless]

 

Directionless you could start reading the Torah, the Mishnah, and the Talmud or you could get a book on the Kabbalah but it's not going to help much. It's just an elaborate symbolic system that doesn't make any more sense than what's in the Bible. There's nothing there that would make the Bible true.

The Torah, the Mishnah and the Talmud are not particularly Kabbalistic per se, though. The Kabbalah is about 700 years later than the Talmud, and although it is based on the three texts you mention, it does twist its sources up in pretty fascinating ways.

 

I didn't realize Kabbalah was actually written down in a book (shows my ignorance). I had heard that Jews aren't allowed to learn Kabbalah until they reach a certain age and get the approval of their rabbi. It sounded very weird to me.

 

I gathered that Blood believes the Torah was composed from scratch during the Jewish exile in Babylonia as opposed to the documentary hypothesis that believes the Torah was spliced together from several earlier documents. So assuming the Torah was composed, then I wondered if a person could include some hidden information.

 

My priest seemed to argue that the NT needed to be read mystically too. He claimed the number of fish caught by Jesus symbolized things like the number of delegates at the council of Nicaea. Of course I really think my priest was an atheist who enjoyed confusing people for the hell of it.

[midniterider]

A few years ago when I was trying to be a Christian, the Eastern Orthodox priest gave a bible study for several weeks. The sessions always degenerated into joke telling, so we never actually studied the Bible.

 

The priest gave the impression that he wanted to teach us a mystical approach to Bible reading beginning in Genesis and working through the rest of the Torah. He claimed it was really amazing, but as I already mentioned the sessions always turned into joke and story telling instead of Bible study.

 

So I've always wondered if there is anything interesting to be discovered through a mystical reading of the Bible. My priest was probably an atheist, so I can believe he was just lying to us about these supposed profound mystical themes in the Torah.

 

Does anybody know about these mystical approaches to the Bible stories? Usually I've never been impressed with mystical mumbo jumbo, but the priest's claims made me curious.

 

Here is a quote from wikipedia about Kabbalah:

According to adherents of Kabbalah, its origin begins with secrets that God revealed to Adam. When read by later generations of Kabbalists, the Torah's description of the creation in the Book of Genesis reveals mysteries about God himself, the true nature of Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life, as well as the interaction of these supernatural entities with the Serpent which leads to disaster when they eat the forbidden fruit, as recorded in Genesis 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

 

 

Try some Thelema, Golden Dawn, Kabbalah, Goetia or Enochian magic. :-)

[miekko]

 

 

Directionless you could start reading the Torah, the Mishnah, and the Talmud or you could get a book on the Kabbalah but it's not going to help much. It's just an elaborate symbolic system that doesn't make any more sense than what's in the Bible. There's nothing there that would make the Bible true.

The Torah, the Mishnah and the Talmud are not particularly Kabbalistic per se, though. The Kabbalah is about 700 years later than the Talmud, and although it is based on the three texts you mention, it does twist its sources up in pretty fascinating ways.

 

I didn't realize Kabbalah was actually written down in a book (shows my ignorance). I had heard that Jews aren't allowed to learn Kabbalah until they reach a certain age and get the approval of their rabbi. It sounded very weird to me.

 

I gathered that Blood believes the Torah was composed from scratch during the Jewish exile in Babylonia as opposed to the documentary hypothesis that believes the Torah was spliced together from several earlier documents. So assuming the Torah was composed, then I wondered if a person could include some hidden information.

 

My priest seemed to argue that the NT needed to be read mystically too. He claimed the number of fish caught by Jesus symbolized things like the number of delegates at the council of Nicaea. Of course I really think my priest was an atheist who enjoyed confusing people for the hell of it.

 

Actually, I don't think I stated anywhere that the Kabbalah *is* written down. I just said 'The Kabbalah is about 700 later than the Talmud' - the Talmud (which obviously is written) is a work of the 3rd to 5th centuries, and Kabbalistic mysticism probably started developing in early medieval times and sort of crystallized in the twelfth centuries. The Kabbalah does have several important written works from medieval times - Bahir, Zohar, Sepher Yetzirah - some other works are even pretty recent such as the Tanya (which is one of the central works of Lubavicher-Chassidic Kabbalah and dates to 1797) .

 

One important caveat with regards to Kabbalistic texts is that they are intentionally obscure. The intention is that Kabbalah is to be taught by a teacher who has learned from a previous teacher, and the written works are supposed not to say anything out in clear. Ostensibly, this is because the Kabbalah can only be taught in very metaphorical ways which will confuse students who are not at the right intellectual level and lead them into heresy, apostacy or even idolatry. Thus, by making sure the texts appear to be nonsensical, this makes the student-teacher relation very important in transmitting the actual ideas of the Kabbalah, and the texts are but a deictic tool - weirdly encrypted notes for future reference, if you will.

 

Having studied some Talmud, I can tell you a similar thing obtains with regards to its style, but the Talmud is not much about weird abstract metaphor, it's just that it doesn't always spell out how the arguments interrelate, and you may have to look over several dozens of pages to realize why a certain conclusion was reached. The Kabbalistic authors have learned from that style, and developed it even further for whatever reason.

 

(I find mysticism interesting as a window into how people thought in past centuries. I have no interest in actually practising it or believing in anything it teaches.)

[miekko]

 

 

Directionless you could start reading the Torah, the Mishnah, and the Talmud or you could get a book on the Kabbalah but it's not going to help much. It's just an elaborate symbolic system that doesn't make any more sense than what's in the Bible. There's nothing there that would make the Bible true.

The Torah, the Mishnah and the Talmud are not particularly Kabbalistic per se, though. The Kabbalah is about 700 years later than the Talmud, and although it is based on the three texts you mention, it does twist its sources up in pretty fascinating ways.

 

I didn't realize Kabbalah was actually written down in a book (shows my ignorance). I had heard that Jews aren't allowed to learn Kabbalah until they reach a certain age and get the approval of their rabbi. It sounded very weird to me.

 

I gathered that Blood believes the Torah was composed from scratch during the Jewish exile in Babylonia as opposed to the documentary hypothesis that believes the Torah was spliced together from several earlier documents. So assuming the Torah was composed, then I wondered if a person could include some hidden information.

 

My priest seemed to argue that the NT needed to be read mystically too. He claimed the number of fish caught by Jesus symbolized things like the number of delegates at the council of Nicaea. Of course I really think my priest was an atheist who enjoyed confusing people for the hell of it.

 

The restrictions on who and when one can learn Kabbalah traditionally has been at an advanced age, but I don't think the rabbis have been the only drivers in it - oftentimes, it seems Kabbalah has been a sort of counter-movement within the Jewish community as well. Some rabbis have openly opposed Kabbalah, yet this does not seem to have put any dent in its popularity. Not all Kabbalistic writers have been rabbis either. Abraham Abulafia does not seem to have been a rabbi anywhere during his time active as a mystic. (Note: in Judaism, being a rabbi is somewhat dissimilar from some Christian notions of clergy - you don't get any magic ability to make the bread and wine be consecrated by uttering some words as in Catholicism, Orthodoxy and some Lutheranism, and it's not in that sense a 'holy office' - the rabbi is a scholar of jewish law and a judge on matters of jewish law that is given recognition and authority as such by a community)

 

As for hidden messages in the Torah - it's unlikely any method to recover such, if they indeed existed (consider me skeptical), would have survived until the times when kabbalah started forming. Further, the methods in use by the kabbalists are very very arbitrary, and could basically extract any meaning you want out of the Torah.

[VacuumFlux]

 

I've tried to read some of the more mystical stuff. A lot of it is just... trippy. Kinda like Ezekiel. It's either boring or entertaining like good sci-fi/fantasy is, and that does have a particularly mind-bending feeling to it when you try to make sense of it all (but I can also get that from some science/math topics and those have the bonus of being real). I suppose it is a rich set of symbolism once you really get into it. But I've never found great insights into anything from it.

For some reason I have never liked the symbolic type of mysticism such as pentagram, tree of life, etc.

 

The type of mysticism that I can appreciate would be inducing altered states of consciousness to supposedly contact the divine. That makes more sense to me.

 

The parallel with science fiction is an interesting observation. I haven't read too much science fiction. I'm a Tolkien fan though. I've been reading some fan fiction on the Henneth Annun story archive that is surprising fun IMO.

 

 

I find that thinking really hard about weird things is a good way to reach an altered state of consciousness. When you're trying to juggle all sorts of thoughts and find patterns in them that make a coherent whole, it takes so much effort that it forces other thoughts out of your mind, including body awareness. Doing science homework, I once got a spontaneous vision of two atoms with separate electron clouds merge into molecular orbitals. If I was playing with weird ideas with the goal and expectation of having some mystical experience, I bet I could get something even more dramatic. If I believed that the symbols I was playing with were given to us by supernatural entities for the purpose of bringing us into a spiritial conversation, I would definitely believe that some of the visions I've had were communications with the divine.

[miekko]

 

 

I've tried to read some of the more mystical stuff. A lot of it is just... trippy. Kinda like Ezekiel. It's either boring or entertaining like good sci-fi/fantasy is, and that does have a particularly mind-bending feeling to it when you try to make sense of it all (but I can also get that from some science/math topics and those have the bonus of being real). I suppose it is a rich set of symbolism once you really get into it. But I've never found great insights into anything from it.

For some reason I have never liked the symbolic type of mysticism such as pentagram, tree of life, etc.

 

The type of mysticism that I can appreciate would be inducing altered states of consciousness to supposedly contact the divine. That makes more sense to me.

 

The parallel with science fiction is an interesting observation. I haven't read too much science fiction. I'm a Tolkien fan though. I've been reading some fan fiction on the Henneth Annun story archive that is surprising fun IMO.

 

 

I find that thinking really hard about weird things is a good way to reach an altered state of consciousness. When you're trying to juggle all sorts of thoughts and find patterns in them that make a coherent whole, it takes so much effort that it forces other thoughts out of your mind, including body awareness. Doing science homework, I once got a spontaneous vision of two atoms with separate electron clouds merge into molecular orbitals. If I was playing with weird ideas with the goal and expectation of having some mystical experience, I bet I could get something even more dramatic. If I believed that the symbols I was playing with were given to us by supernatural entities for the purpose of bringing us into a spiritial conversation, I would definitely believe that some of the visions I've had were communications with the divine.

 

The maths one can come up with describe music is sufficiently mind-bogglingly weird. Let's say like this: when you don't find rounding off rational numbers to irrational numbers(!!) of the form (a/b)^(m/n) where a,b, m, n  Z weird any longer, you're on the verge of some pretty fascinating experiences.

[directionless]

Try some Thelema, Golden Dawn, Kabbalah, Goetia or Enochian magic. :-)

Thanks. A pagan on another forum said she thought people needed to be psychologically stable before they practiced magic. That sounded reasonable to me. I'm fairly stable, but once in a while I get suspicious when coincidences happen.

[directionless]

I find that thinking really hard about weird things is a good way to reach an altered state of consciousness. When you're trying to juggle all sorts of thoughts and find patterns in them that make a coherent whole, it takes so much effort that it forces other thoughts out of your mind, including body awareness. Doing science homework, I once got a spontaneous vision of two atoms with separate electron clouds merge into molecular orbitals. If I was playing with weird ideas with the goal and expectation of having some mystical experience, I bet I could get something even more dramatic. If I believed that the symbols I was playing with were given to us by supernatural entities for the purpose of bringing us into a spiritial conversation, I would definitely believe that some of the visions I've had were communications with the divine.

Wow, that's different. I have found that focusing on an intellectual problem sometimes helps me break the cyclic thoughts of depression, but I've never experienced anything like that. What seems to cause hallucinations for me is stress from making decisions. One time I had a hallucination after being very relaxed from the chiropractor. Other times the hallucinations seem to come from depression.

[directionless]

The restrictions on who and when one can learn Kabbalah traditionally has been at an advanced age, but I don't think the rabbis have been the only drivers in it - oftentimes, it seems Kabbalah has been a sort of counter-movement within the Jewish community as well. Some rabbis have openly opposed Kabbalah, yet this does not seem to have put any dent in its popularity. Not all Kabbalistic writers have been rabbis either. Abraham Abulafia does not seem to have been a rabbi anywhere during his time active as a mystic. (Note: in Judaism, being a rabbi is somewhat dissimilar from some Christian notions of clergy - you don't get any magic ability to make the bread and wine be consecrated by uttering some words as in Catholicism, Orthodoxy and some Lutheranism, and it's not in that sense a 'holy office' - the rabbi is a scholar of jewish law and a judge on matters of jewish law that is given recognition and authority as such by a community)

 

As for hidden messages in the Torah - it's unlikely any method to recover such, if they indeed existed (consider me skeptical), would have survived until the times when kabbalah started forming. Further, the methods in use by the kabbalists are very very arbitrary, and could basically extract any meaning you want out of the Torah.

Thanks, Miekko, that is a lot of good information about Kabbalah. Like you, I'm not a believer in that type of approach, but I can see how it might be fun and interesting for people. I wonder if deciphering each Kabbalah puzzle gives a key that can decipher the next puzzle? (Probably I'm not imagining Kabbalah right though.)

 

Crossword puzzles are more my speed.

[midniterider]

 

Try some Thelema, Golden Dawn, Kabbalah, Goetia or Enochian magic. :-)

Thanks. A pagan on another forum said she thought people needed to be psychologically stable before they practiced magic. That sounded reasonable to me. I'm fairly stable, but once in a while I get suspicious when coincidences happen.

 

 

The authors of Chaos Magic books warn against the dreaded 'obsession' when working magic...but then also say you should "work magic everyday..." seems contradictory. :-) As with religion, greasy foods and alcohol, do everything (including magic) in moderation. lol.

[miekko]

 

The restrictions on who and when one can learn Kabbalah traditionally has been at an advanced age, but I don't think the rabbis have been the only drivers in it - oftentimes, it seems Kabbalah has been a sort of counter-movement within the Jewish community as well. Some rabbis have openly opposed Kabbalah, yet this does not seem to have put any dent in its popularity. Not all Kabbalistic writers have been rabbis either. Abraham Abulafia does not seem to have been a rabbi anywhere during his time active as a mystic. (Note: in Judaism, being a rabbi is somewhat dissimilar from some Christian notions of clergy - you don't get any magic ability to make the bread and wine be consecrated by uttering some words as in Catholicism, Orthodoxy and some Lutheranism, and it's not in that sense a 'holy office' - the rabbi is a scholar of jewish law and a judge on matters of jewish law that is given recognition and authority as such by a community)

 

As for hidden messages in the Torah - it's unlikely any method to recover such, if they indeed existed (consider me skeptical), would have survived until the times when kabbalah started forming. Further, the methods in use by the kabbalists are very very arbitrary, and could basically extract any meaning you want out of the Torah.

Thanks, Miekko, that is a lot of good information about Kabbalah. Like you, I'm not a believer in that type of approach, but I can see how it might be fun and interesting for people. I wonder if deciphering each Kabbalah puzzle gives a key that can decipher the next puzzle? (Probably I'm not imagining Kabbalah right though.)

 

Crossword puzzles are more my speed.

 

I see, btw, that I trailed off from the thing I was going to say from the very onset there. Yes, traditionally, it's been restricted to middle-aged+, meticulously Torah observant and Torah-educated Jews - but in Chassidism - an 18th century eastern European Jewish religious revival of sorts - Kabbalah was repurposed - now it was Kabbalah that would lead to Torah-observance and knowledge.

 

There's an assumption in large parts of orthodox Judaism that every generation on average is less capable of understanding Halakha (Jewish Law) - so every generation, new rulings on Halakha are more likely to be mistaken. The Chassidim came up with an idea that sort of alleviates the worry that this idea caused - with every generation, the average ability to understand Kabbalah increases. Therefore, in a way, we could sort of exaggeratedly say they've given up on being Great Halakha scholars and instead gone on to be Great Mysticists.

 

Since Kabbalah now serves to draw people towards observance of the law and participation in the Jewish community, it no longer makes sense to restrict it to middle-aged+ people. (I am not fully certain it's ever been fully restricted to adults - there are some historically important kabbalists that we know died before reaching 40!) I seem to recall some of the Chassidim still require one to be married, though, in order to study Kabbalah.  

[directionless]

I see, btw, that I trailed off from the thing I was going to say from the very onset there. Yes, traditionally, it's been restricted to middle-aged+, meticulously Torah observant and Torah-educated Jews - but in Chassidism - an 18th century eastern European Jewish religious revival of sorts - Kabbalah was repurposed - now it was Kabbalah that would lead to Torah-observance and knowledge.

 

There's an assumption in large parts of orthodox Judaism that every generation on average is less capable of understanding Halakha (Jewish Law) - so every generation, new rulings on Halakha are more likely to be mistaken. The Chassidim came up with an idea that sort of alleviates the worry that this idea caused - with every generation, the average ability to understand Kabbalah increases. Therefore, in a way, we could sort of exaggeratedly say they've given up on being Great Halakha scholars and instead gone on to be Great Mysticists.

 

Since Kabbalah now serves to draw people towards observance of the law and participation in the Jewish community, it no longer makes sense to restrict it to middle-aged+ people. (I am not fully certain it's ever been fully restricted to adults - there are some historically important kabbalists that we know died before reaching 40!) I seem to recall some of the Chassidim still require one to be married, though, in order to study Kabbalah.

That's interesting. I don't follow their reasoning for why Kabbalah gets better with each generation and Halakha gets worse. Is the idea that Kabbalah is like science where each generation adds their discoveries while Halakha is like an exact copy gradually losing clarity with each generation?

[miekko]

 

I see, btw, that I trailed off from the thing I was going to say from the very onset there. Yes, traditionally, it's been restricted to middle-aged+, meticulously Torah observant and Torah-educated Jews - but in Chassidism - an 18th century eastern European Jewish religious revival of sorts - Kabbalah was repurposed - now it was Kabbalah that would lead to Torah-observance and knowledge.

 

There's an assumption in large parts of orthodox Judaism that every generation on average is less capable of understanding Halakha (Jewish Law) - so every generation, new rulings on Halakha are more likely to be mistaken. The Chassidim came up with an idea that sort of alleviates the worry that this idea caused - with every generation, the average ability to understand Kabbalah increases. Therefore, in a way, we could sort of exaggeratedly say they've given up on being Great Halakha scholars and instead gone on to be Great Mysticists.

 

Since Kabbalah now serves to draw people towards observance of the law and participation in the Jewish community, it no longer makes sense to restrict it to middle-aged+ people. (I am not fully certain it's ever been fully restricted to adults - there are some historically important kabbalists that we know died before reaching 40!) I seem to recall some of the Chassidim still require one to be married, though, in order to study Kabbalah.

That's interesting. I don't follow their reasoning for why Kabbalah gets better with each generation and Halakha gets worse. Is the idea that Kabbalah is like science where each generation adds their discoveries while Halakha is like an exact copy gradually losing clarity with each generation?

 

No, it's not about how kabbalah and halakha work, it's about how humans change over time - the idea is that newer generations will be worse at reasoning about halakha, but better at experiencing and thinking and learning kabbalah.

 

I guess this in part is a thing that was posited because the early Jewish works so seldom deal with mysticism at all, whereas they are very concerned with halakha.

[directionless]

No, it's not about how kabbalah and halakha work, it's about how humans change over time - the idea is that newer generations will be worse at reasoning about halakha, but better at experiencing and thinking and learning kabbalah.

 

I guess this in part is a thing that was posited because the early Jewish works so seldom deal with mysticism at all, whereas they are very concerned with halakha.

I don't know much about Judaism, so I guess I shouldn't express an opinion. It sounds a bit fishy to claim that modern generations can't reason as well as previous generations.

[miekko]

 

No, it's not about how kabbalah and halakha work, it's about how humans change over time - the idea is that newer generations will be worse at reasoning about halakha, but better at experiencing and thinking and learning kabbalah.

 

I guess this in part is a thing that was posited because the early Jewish works so seldom deal with mysticism at all, whereas they are very concerned with halakha.

I don't know much about Judaism, so I guess I shouldn't express an opinion. It sounds a bit fishy to claim that modern generations can't reason as well as previous generations.

 

Of course it is. Has that ever stopped anyone from making claims? This idea isn't accepted throughout orthodox judaism btw, but it's popular in some quarters. In part, I imagine it's an expression of the quite common idea of a golden age in the past - although Judaism generally does seem to be rather refreshingly resistant to the golden age mythos (not entirely, but ...), this seems to be a concession to that kind of thinking.

 

They're not saying, btw, that modern generations are less good at reasoning in general - they're saying that modern generations are less good at reasoning about halakha. So they apparently imagine that reasoning about halakha is a skill separate from, say, scientific reasoning or other kinds of legal reasoning and so on.

[directionless]

Of course it is. Has that ever stopped anyone from making claims? This idea isn't accepted throughout orthodox judaism btw, but it's popular in some quarters. In part, I imagine it's an expression of the quite common idea of a golden age in the past - although Judaism generally does seem to be rather refreshingly resistant to the golden age mythos (not entirely, but ...), this seems to be a concession to that kind of thinking.

 

They're not saying, btw, that modern generations are less good at reasoning in general - they're saying that modern generations are less good at reasoning about halakha. So they apparently imagine that reasoning about halakha is a skill separate from, say, scientific reasoning or other kinds of legal reasoning and so on.

o.k. that's what I suspected. I'm always complaining about the younger generation's inability to write legibly, so I understand where they are coming from.

[miekko]

 

Of course it is. Has that ever stopped anyone from making claims? This idea isn't accepted throughout orthodox judaism btw, but it's popular in some quarters. In part, I imagine it's an expression of the quite common idea of a golden age in the past - although Judaism generally does seem to be rather refreshingly resistant to the golden age mythos (not entirely, but ...), this seems to be a concession to that kind of thinking.

 

They're not saying, btw, that modern generations are less good at reasoning in general - they're saying that modern generations are less good at reasoning about halakha. So they apparently imagine that reasoning about halakha is a skill separate from, say, scientific reasoning or other kinds of legal reasoning and so on.

o.k. that's what I suspected. I'm always complaining about the younger generation's inability to write legibly, so I understand where they are coming from.

 

In part this line of reasoning is why orthodox Judaism is sort of getting itself a really impossibly complicated system of religious rules to work with - communities tend to defer to earlier authorities who deferred to earlier authorities who ... and so basically all you get is fine-tuning of fine-tuning of fine-tuning of rules that go back to early medieval times. Conservative Judaism basically arose as an objection to this (and as an objection to the - in their eyes - extravagantly counter-traditional reform Judaism) - essentially they wanted Jews to be able to let go of dozens of generations of rulings, without entirely breaking with the respect for tradition.

[Orbit]

 

 

I see, btw, that I trailed off from the thing I was going to say from the very onset there. Yes, traditionally, it's been restricted to middle-aged+, meticulously Torah observant and Torah-educated Jews - but in Chassidism - an 18th century eastern European Jewish religious revival of sorts - Kabbalah was repurposed - now it was Kabbalah that would lead to Torah-observance and knowledge.

 

There's an assumption in large parts of orthodox Judaism that every generation on average is less capable of understanding Halakha (Jewish Law) - so every generation, new rulings on Halakha are more likely to be mistaken. The Chassidim came up with an idea that sort of alleviates the worry that this idea caused - with every generation, the average ability to understand Kabbalah increases. Therefore, in a way, we could sort of exaggeratedly say they've given up on being Great Halakha scholars and instead gone on to be Great Mysticists.

 

Since Kabbalah now serves to draw people towards observance of the law and participation in the Jewish community, it no longer makes sense to restrict it to middle-aged+ people. (I am not fully certain it's ever been fully restricted to adults - there are some historically important kabbalists that we know died before reaching 40!) I seem to recall some of the Chassidim still require one to be married, though, in order to study Kabbalah.

That's interesting. I don't follow their reasoning for why Kabbalah gets better with each generation and Halakha gets worse. Is the idea that Kabbalah is like science where each generation adds their discoveries while Halakha is like an exact copy gradually losing clarity with each generation?

 

No, it's not about how kabbalah and halakha work, it's about how humans change over time - the idea is that newer generations will be worse at reasoning about halakha, but better at experiencing and thinking and learning kabbalah.

 

I guess this in part is a thing that was posited because the early Jewish works so seldom deal with mysticism at all, whereas they are very concerned with halakha.

 

There was a popularization of Kabbalah in the 90s, led by the Kabbalah Center in west Los Angeles. I attended a few times out of curiosity. Their aim was to make Kabbalistic study more mainstream. I'm sure the Orthodox hated it.