Atheism And The Brutal Finality Of Death

[Brother Jeff]

I have been a convinced atheist for about 14 years now. With the exception of a few brief but very intense bipolar-induced "re-conversion" experiences, I have stayed out of the cult since early 2000. I have reached a state of peace about there not being a God and about there not being an afterlife. The NDE phenomenon is the only thing that gives me the slightest hope that there *might* be some sort of afterlife, but the hope there is slim and problematical at best. What I am really having trouble with now is accepting the brutal finality of death. I have had to say goodbye to all of my grandparents, and they have all been gone for over a decade now. My grandmother Reid was the last to go in 2003. I still miss them a lot when I think about them, and I wrote about them recently in this glorious thread:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/64464-the-harsh-reality-and-finality-of-death/#.VCMML_ldV8E

 

I'm just really struggling with the apparently reality that death means that our consciousnesses will be permanently extinguished and permanent nonexistence follows. 

 

We lost my mother's beloved dog Sally a few weeks ago. She was "just a dog", but she was a valued and deeply loved four-legged member of our family. I am really having trouble accepting that that sweet, loving, happy little dog with the constantly wagging tail is dead and gone now, and her dog consciousness -- all of that love and happiness -- is permanently extinguished. What makes it worse for me is the tragic way in which she died. It was accident that no one is to blame for. She got trapped in my mom's hot car and died from the heat. My mom simply didn't realize that Sally had jumped in there while she was getting something out of the back of the car. I hope Sally did not suffer for too long before she passed out from the heat and died. But my mind often goes to "how long did she bark trying to get attention and suffer" before she died. 

 

My cat wife Tasha is almost 17 years old and I know her time is coming, and I can't imagine being without her. That cat is a cuddly bundle of affectionate love. I wouldn't trade all the money in the world for the look of love I see in Tasha's eyes when I pet her and love on her. It's priceless. And when her time comes and she is dead and gone, it will be hard to accept that her cat consciousness, with all of that happiness and love, is permanently extinguished and gone.

 

My parents are both still living but they are in their 70's. My mom is 72 and my dad turns 74 in a couple of days. They both still work and enjoy doing it, but for how much longer will they be capable of it? I know their times are coming, and I will have to face their deaths without the comfort of ancient myths about a loving God (although I know the Bible actually doesn't support the alleged loving nature of God) and a pleasant afterlife in heaven. 

 

I currently have 296 friends over on Facebook. That's enough that I fairly frequently see people posting about the illnesses or deaths of loved ones. Since I know that prayer has zero power in the real world and that it doesn't work, and I know that there is very likely no afterlife, I am left feeling inadequate. I can't share in the ancient myths and the assurance that these friends have that their loved ones are in a better place now, if they have died. I have nothing to offer than something that seems lame by comparison to the useless prayers being offered such as "my thoughts are with you" or something like that. I have nothing to offer but the brutal reality of the world as it actually is and that loved ones, if they have died, are gone forever and no reunion in a heaven has or ever will take place.

 

Anyway... I am an atheist and am generally happy leading my life without any religious or spiritual beliefs and without reference to a God. But the final step of satisfaction and peace with it is accepting the brutal finality of death. How do you deal with it, and what do you say to grieving friends and family members, since you can't share belief in God or in a heaven of any sort? Thanks.

 

Glory!

[bleedblue22]

Yeah I definitely get scared too man.

 

I kinda wish I could believe honestly in one of the God's who guarantee that everything works out for good and we all live happily ever after, but I would have to check my integrity at the door. Anyway, I kinda like to counteract the doom and gloom of death by interacting with small children or seeing the miracle of a newborn baby. It really is the circle of life where for every death there is a birth and new people bring a sense of hope and wonder. Remember that many people and stars had to die in order for you to be born.

 

Also, if you look at the alternative of living forever, that would be an even more depressing view. Thank goodness we can die when we've had enough of this life and its pains, joys, hardships, and love. Ultimately we need our lives to be finite to give us any source of motivation and drive.

 

To top it off, it's possible that when we die our consciousness doesn't completely go away. There are all kinds of theories such as panpsychism where even the most base form of matter have consciousness to it. I'll be convinced that death is the end when we can truly figure out where consciousness comes from.

[par4dcourse]

We exchanged an unprovable fantasy world for reality. Hard as that is sometimes, I still think it's a good trade.

 

I lost my mother a month ago, and I'm fine with her having lived a good life and my good memories.

 

Enjoy every minute of this life and you won't need a next.

[amateur]

I think that because we are ephemeral that makes life very precious while we're here.

[Blood]

The only thing to be afraid of is an unexpected death -- getting killed in a car crash, for example. That's what bothers me. Not the death, but the unfinished life that would leave, and the unfairness of having life cut short just because some idiot had too much to drink at a party one night. Or because some $#*!@ "gun rights" asshole/idiot forgot to take the bullet out of the chamber before masturbating with his penis extender and fired through his window into mine. 

 

But then I think about all the people who die for those very reasons, every day, and I realize that it would be egotistical to complain of "unfairness" if those disasters were visited on me. My life isn't better or more deserving than theirs. So any self-pity is misplaced. 

 

Life isn't fair, and you might die for trivial reasons. Contemplating these maxims regularly leads to better decision-making and perhaps some peace of mind. 

[Orbit]

Death is natural. I'm ok with that. Everything dies.

[directionless]

Random ideas:

 

- Part of the problem is the worry that we don't know how we will possibly cope with losing a loved one. Maybe it helps to remember that you will cope somehow because there is no way around it? That might reduce the worry somewhat.

 

- You could get philosophical? Like is the past actually gone? What is consciousness? I guess there is no way around the pain of continuing to live without a loved one though.

 

- You could look at the losses of other loved ones and your eventual recovery to realize that the pain won't last forever?

[Scottsman]

I dont want to exist forever. I want an end. Could you imagine having to live forever and not being able to die?!? Ughhh. I want to come to an end after a good long life.

[DoubtingNate]

I still can't wrap my head around it.  That is probably why we have any religion in the first place.  Otherwise we'd all be atheists by default.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

When I was xian I longed for the afterlife I believed in, which meant I didn't pay enough attention to this, the only life I now believe I will have.  I allowed the imaginary idea that I would see deceased loves ones again to comfort me.  Today, I consciously enjoy them more while they are alive, knowing that it will hopefully ease the loss I will feel when they die.

 

I recently experienced my first bereavement since deconversion nearly 7 months ago.  I was able to focus on the good memories of the person and the positive impact they had on those around them, which will continue on.  It was a much better experience for me than previous bereavements, because I felt like I was experiencing life on life's terms instead of believing in an illusion.  We are sad when someone dies because we will miss them, and that is normal and natural.  It shows how much we loved them.  The pain does lessen with time.

[Thackerie]

Random ideas:

 

- Part of the problem is the worry that we don't know how we will possibly cope with losing a loved one. Maybe it helps to remember that you will cope somehow because there is no way around it? That might reduce the worry somewhat.

 

...

 

Bingo! For years and years, I worried about how I'd cope with a death in the family ... and then it happened, and another one, and another one, etc. ... It's been 15 years since I first experienced the death of a loved one. Now, I'm down to only one brother left. I miss my parents and siblings and think about them everyday. But ... you get through it because that's really all you can do.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Lucretius' On the Nature of Things has some good insights into wrapping your head around your own, and loved ones', nonexistence.  For example, none of his readers in the first century BCE, he says, is upset at not having been alive in the times of Hannibal.  We're not upset that there were times and people and stuff going on before we were born.  So why not look at the time after we die reciprocally?  Then, if we are not, death is nothing to us. 

 

It is hard for me to imagine how some vibrant personality, even my cat Maya's (she was just diagnosed with lymphosarcoma), will just dissipate into the atoms.  But continuing to exist FOREVER is kind of weird, too, and a little bit awful.  (Especially if being in heaven means singing a lot of praise songs.) 

[Fernweh]

If you have ever been unconscious under general anesthesia then I imagine you have experienced something close to death. I've had it once and I recall talking to the people in the OR. I was waiting for some sensation that the anesthesia was taking effect and it never came. I was simply out and have no memory of going out. I woke up later in another room and have no idea what happened in the hour or two that I was out.  For that time I was effectively dead and had I never woken up from the anesthesia I would have never known....because I would be dead. I don't fear this state because it will be exactly like it was before I was born. The only thing I fear is a slow agonizing downward spiral where I would know death is imminent such as with cancer or some other terminal illness. 

 

That being said, I did morn for my eternal soul after deconverting. For 38 years or so I believed I would exist forever and it took me a while to come to grips with the fact that this is my only life. Everything I will ever experience will happen between the day I was born and the day I die and nothing more. This was depressing for a while but eventually I learned to live my life to the fullest and it has made every experience richer. As a Christian I was living for death and an after life that will never happen. Now I'm living for this life and do not like to waste a single moment. 

[Cousin Ricky]

I still can't wrap my head around it.

 

I can't either. I think I know why I can't, so I stopped trying.

 

That is probably why we have any religion in the first place.  Otherwise we'd all be atheists by default.

 

I'm sure there are other reasons we have religion, but fear of death would be a good reason that people believe in an afterlife, if not religion per se.

[Thrive]

My first experience with death was my husband when I was 21.  He was an atheist and my family was either devote christian or mormon.  I lied and told them all that he had been saved before he died.  I was already on pity overload and honestly I just couldn't imagine a place where he wouldn't have been welcome.  He was not perfect, but he was an good man.  A lot of widows I've met over the years believe in visitation or signs from their lost loved ones and this always bothered me.  I don't want him hanging around watching and worrying about me.  To be honest he wouldn't have liked most of what he saw that first year or so as I fell apart.  It brought me more comfort to think that he was just gone and not in limbo or waiting anywhere.

 

Later as other mormom family members died, my christian family members mourned how they had died without salvation.  I'm sorry, but my grandfather was a decroated war veteren, who spent his life serving and helping others. This man in his 90's, rode his motorized wheelchair around the neighborhood to visit the sick or to bring groceries to his widowed neighbor.  He was kind and loving and devoted in his mormon beliefs.  Yet he was going to burn in hell because he didn't believe in the right version of jezzus?  Nope, I just don't buy that. 

 

I'm not afraid of death, I am afraid of leaving my son behind and how he will be affected.  But I'm not afraid of what will happen to me.  Mostly I think it will just be the end, but there is a small part of me that wishes for another moment with my husband.  I figure if it happens I'll treat it as a bonus. 

[sparklingphoenix]

I don't really know how to deal with death either...Last night I had a moment where I looked around my room and imagined my nonexistence. It made me feel kind of scared that my consciousness will be snuffed out one day and I'll be just another dead animal and my room will be empty. For a moment I wished for an afterlife, because at least then I wouldn't really have to die. It's impossible to imagine not existing. Maybe when I'm really old I'll be ready to die, but right now it's hard to accept. 

[amateur]

My first experience with death was my husband when I was 21.  He was an atheist and my family was either devote christian or mormon.  I lied and told them all that he had been saved before he died.  I was already on pity overload and honestly I just couldn't imagine a place where he wouldn't have been welcome.  He was not perfect, but he was an good man.  A lot of widows I've met over the years believe in visitation or signs from their lost loved ones and this always bothered me.  I don't want him hanging around watching and worrying about me.  To be honest he wouldn't have liked most of what he saw that first year or so as I fell apart.  It brought me more comfort to think that he was just gone and not in limbo or waiting anywhere.

 

Later as other mormom family members died, my christian family members mourned how they had died without salvation.  I'm sorry, but my grandfather was a decroated war veteren, who spent his life serving and helping others. This man in his 90's, rode his motorized wheelchair around the neighborhood to visit the sick or to bring groceries to his widowed neighbor.  He was kind and loving and devoted in his mormon beliefs.  Yet he was going to burn in hell because he didn't believe in the right version of jezzus?  Nope, I just don't buy that. 

 

I'm not afraid of death, I am afraid of leaving my son behind and how he will be affected.  But I'm not afraid of what will happen to me.  Mostly I think it will just be the end, but there is a small part of me that wishes for another moment with my husband.  I figure if it happens I'll treat it as a bonus. 

Thrive, I am so sorry to hear about your husband.  How tragic.

 

What you said about not wanting your husband hanging around watching and worrying about you at that time reminds me when my mom died when I was 18.  At that point, I was a xian, but from the day she died, I could never pray again.  I did NOT want any signs or visions of her; somehow I knew that would freak me out.  My mom as far as I knew had been agnostic, so had in no way said she'd be going to heaven or sending signs (nor did anyone in my family), but I just wanted no part of any of that anyway.  I was beyond sad that she had died, but death needs to stay final.  I'm not trying to be rude here, or insensitive, but that time is hard enough without someone not staying dead and bouncing back and forth.  

 

I also went through a rough time after she died, and a couple other times in my life, and those times were indeed very private, and I am glad nobody was hanging around above me as some kind of spirit of anything watching it.  Ugh.  That type of deep grief, which includes falling apart and rebuilding yourself, is very private and can only be dealt with alone (well, except when you are at a stage where you're willing to go to some type of group or counseling -- but the truly falling apart times are, in my opinion, too personal to share).

 

And anybody that would say that your grandfather wasn't an awesome man, Thrive, is just a dick.

 

And I understand what you said about being afraid of leaving your son behind if you were to die, not caring what would happen to you personally.  That's my feeling, too.  I am so relieved now that I'm still alive and kicking and my younger child is now 20.  Both my kids are adults now, with good plans for their lives, and are good people, so my fear of dying and abandoning them too young is finished, which is just a relief.  

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Lucretius' On the Nature of Things has some good insights into wrapping your head around your own, and loved ones', nonexistence.  For example, none of his readers in the first century BCE, he says, is upset at not having been alive in the times of Hannibal.  We're not upset that there were times and people and stuff going on before we were born.  So why not look at the time after we die reciprocally?  Then, if we are not, death is nothing to us. 

 

It is hard for me to imagine how some vibrant personality, even my cat Maya's (she was just diagnosed with lymphosarcoma), will just dissipate into the atoms.  But continuing to exist FOREVER is kind of weird, too, and a little bit awful.  (Especially if being in heaven means singing a lot of praise songs.) 

I'm sorry to hear about Maya.  Give her some ear scritches from me.

[Brother Jeff]

Lucretius' On the Nature of Things has some good insights into wrapping your head around your own, and loved ones', nonexistence.  For example, none of his readers in the first century BCE, he says, is upset at not having been alive in the times of Hannibal.  We're not upset that there were times and people and stuff going on before we were born.  So why not look at the time after we die reciprocally?  Then, if we are not, death is nothing to us. 

 

It is hard for me to imagine how some vibrant personality, even my cat Maya's (she was just diagnosed with lymphosarcoma), will just dissipate into the atoms.  But continuing to exist FOREVER is kind of weird, too, and a little bit awful.  (Especially if being in heaven means singing a lot of praise songs.) 

 

So sorry to hear about Maya. My cat wife Tasha is almost 17 and healthy for being that age, but I know her time is coming and I too can't imagine her sweet and loving personality just dissipating into nothingness. But when the time comes, as much as I will grieve and mourn her passing, I will be grateful for having had her and for the love we shared. 

 

Nonexistence is hard to imagine, but so is living forever. It would get BORING after a while, after we had seen and done everything there is to see and do multiple times...

[Helvetios]

I was watching Cosmos recently and the sheer scale of the universe just blew my mind...it's a wonder that we're here at all, really, and in part I'm glad we have the opportunity to witness and remember the lives of others with such clarity, because we're the only ones who will. Sometimes grief can be scary. But in the end it isn't the length that counts - it's what you do with it that matters. 

 

 

[mydisplayname]

Death. Probably the thing that causes the most conversions to religion. We don't want to die and we're sad when loved ones die. "Oh, Whats this"? "You're offering eternal life?" "Please, tell me more." Before we know it we're praying to the flying spaghetti monster or whatever deity is the most popular in our part of the world.

 

I never really gave death much thought as a fundie. But I would like to thank it. It really played a big role in making me ask the important right questions. 

 

And to be brutally honest. What have I done to deserve an eternal life? I consume resources. That's all. When my time comes I will happily go. Who knows, maybe I get knocked off my motorcycle on my way home today and my wife reads this tomorrow. I would rather live for 30 years and die, than live for 100 and never experience life. It's about quality and not quantity.

 

I have maybe 40 odd years left. I'm not going to go around being scared of everything. I'm going to enjoy life, nature, beauty, art, music and I'm going to do my part in preserving this for others that will come after me.

 

And if others die that means something to me then I will mourn their death, but I'm not going to let it stop me from experiencing the rest of my life in a meaningful way.

 

Bit of a rant, but in typing this out I sort of decided it.

[foak]

This is a pdf from the american cancer society.

While i myself am vehemently opposed to the ACS for what they do to people, this pdf is a good guide for those who have some basic questions.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEoQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cancer.org%2Fnearing-the-end-of-life-pdf&ei=9NczVMysHY60yAT9rYLYDA&usg=AFQjCNGcYf_XBV0bcrJyEhkPSXD8notbxQ&sig2=es4sYKzWoLbrvPtGCYcMEQ&bvm=bv.76943099,d.cWc&cad=rja

 

 

Now a little something from the peanut gallery:

 

My mom died in march 2014, she was 71yrs old.

Overwhelmed by cancer is my simple explanation.

I am 55yrs old.

 

We are born like a flower on a warm spring morning.

Expressing ourselves to the fullest because we know no other way to live life,

we breathe in the air, play in the puddles, are warmed by the sun, and rub are hands and feet in the mud, without a care for how our needs will be met.

We just know everything is ok.

 

With each new experience the dew drops of innocence begin to fall and we grow and learn.

We begin to wonder if everything is ok.

 

With every passing year we take on the stresses of life and begin to strive to make sure that,

everything will be ok.

 

We make our choices and live our lives and we wonder if

things are ok.

 

The twilight comes, darkness will soon follow and we wonder if things will be ok.

 

No one told us how to hang on to that knowing we once had.

That knowing that everything is ok.

Once it goes away, we spend the rest of our life chasing after it.

Like chasing after the wind, we know it's there but we can't seem to figure out which direction to turn to find it.

 

....more to come on knowing and how to get it back.

[Neverlandrut]

Life without death would be like the song that nevers ends. It's great, fun, and catchy for a while. But after a while,it gets really old and you just want it to stop.