Red Sea Or The Sea Of Reeds...plagues Natural Explanation?

[Guest Serenity]

I watched on the Discovery Channel just a few minutes ago entitled Ramses: Wrath of God or Man? narrated by Morgan Freeman. What an excellent and in depth look into the bible and the time of the exodus, the plagues, Hebrews, etc. Did anyone else see that show tonight?

 

Explanation for the plague was Ethiopa's red clay dirt that could have washed into the nile causing it to turn red, in turn causing the death of fish in the Nile. The frog plague explained that because of the bad water they would naturally leave the water for land. Because the frogs left the water, many gnats and such would not have been taken care of by their natural predator; the frogs. The water then caused the disease anthrax causing boils, killing livestock, etc. A cold February produced hail, etc. I've probably left a few things out but that is the gist of it.

 

As far as the angel of death...no proof. They found a skull that was found in the tomb Rameses the Great had built for his sons and one of the skulls is believed to be his first born son (cannot hardly say the name let alone spell it). The skull had a fracture womb consistent with a blow to the head.

 

Parting of the Red Sea? A Jewish Scholar on the show said there was a mistranslation and it should have been the Sea of Reeds, which is a marsh parted by grasses and such. They said that the Hebrew slaves numbered nowhere near 600,000 but more like in the few thousands and that Ramses being 90 with severe arthritus and horrible tooth decay would not have chased the Hebrews by chariot. They tested to see whether or not another of Ramses sons could have chased them down but that didn't fit either. Next they pieced together that it was more than likely Ramses firstborn who would have led the chase for the Hebrews. The Marsh would have been horrible on the chariots and that they would have tipped, knocking over the Egyptians and made it easy for the Hebrews to kill them all, including Rameses firstborn.

 

Also, they couldn't prove it but thought it possible that Moses was actually a son of Rameses that rebelled and was part of a monotheistic religion started by another Egyptian in authoritive position.

 

It was just an awesome show, one definately worth watching.

[SkepticOfBible]

One word for the whole thing - Speculation

 

Correct me if I am wrong, the bible doesn't even mention the name of the Pharoah, it just says Pharoah. People just naturally assume Ramesus is the pharoah.

 

If the plagues did hit Egypt one would expect the records found in the egyption writings. They may potrayed it like "Our various Gods were angry which is why these things happened to us".

 

Check out Farell Till article on the whole Plague issue

 

Plagued By Inconsistencies: Discrepancies in theEgyptian-Plague Narratives

[cathuria]

I have to side with pritishd here -- there are only two possibilities that make sense:

 

1) The bible is true and God blasted the honkers out of the heathens.

2) the bible is a fairy tale written down 700 years after the supposed events.

 

The Discovery channel version (which I've heard before) is just schizo. Why would you want to show how the bible can be TRUE but without miracles? It's like they want to keep the bible but throw out god?

I don't get it.

[SkepticOfBible]

I have to side with pritishd here -- there are only two possibilities that make sense:

 

1) The bible is true and God blasted the honkers out of the heathens.

2) the bible is a fairy tale written down 700 years after the supposed events.

 

The Discovery channel version (which I've heard before) is just schizo. Why would you want to show how the bible can be TRUE but without miracles? It's like they want to keep the bible but throw out god?

I don't get it.

 

I mean first of all they have to prove that Moses actually existed.

 

Why isn't there a record in the Egyption scrolls about him?So he could be just as legendary as Hercules.

 

Freak, not even Christian can prove the existance of Moses, or any of the character from OT.

 

Another very good example will be of Joseph. Joseph allegedly had solved a major crises for the Egyption, so in other words he was a hero to Egyptions. I mean the pharoah declares him to be second powerful person in Egpyt. So pretty he had near divine status in ancient Egypt.

 

So how come we cannot find a single record of this Hebrew who rose up to the highest ranks of Egypt?

[Ouroboros]

And if we have to take sides, I take Serenity's

 

This show was pretty much the same format as the one about Noah's Ark. How the stories came together and could be explained with a natural explanation and story.

 

This was the same thing. If Moses did exist, or there was any kind of an Exodus, the explanations to all the "fabulous" miracles etc, have a natural explanation, and the Discovery Channel actually dared to give that to its viewers. There's way too many books, movies and pseudo-documentaries out there that have the "evidences" for Moses, Exodus and supposed miracles, and the American public really, really, really badly need to get alternative explanations that they can understand.

 

Make a show that say, "Fucking No! Moses didn't exist and it's all a sham", 70% of Americans will not watch it. But present it with some finesse, go half the way, "Okay, Moses maybe existed, but look, here's explanations to why they thought they saw miracles". You might get more viewers, maybe even the fanatic fundamentalists.

[Ex-COG]

Damn! I missed it.

 

Parting of the Red Sea? A Jewish Scholar on the show said there was a mistranslation and it should have been the Sea of Reeds, which is a marsh parted by grasses and such. They said that the Hebrew slaves numbered nowhere near 600,000 but more like in the few thousands...

I've heard of this. I think conservative Christians like to push the "Sea of Reeds" theory into the realm of "higher criticism" and thus deny its possibility.

 

Also, they couldn't prove it but thought it possible that Moses was actually a son of Rameses that rebelled and was part of a monotheistic religion started by another Egyptian in authoritive position.

Was it Amenhetep IV? He attempted to impose a monotheistic religion on the Egyptians. Tutankhamen: Amenism, Atenism and Egyptian Monotheism

 

They also said that many of the Proverbs are in Egyptian writings (that wasn't speculative but fact)

From the Precepts of Kagemna and the Precepts of Ptah-hetep:

 

1. The things which God, (neter), doeth cannot be known.

 

2. Terrify not men. God, (neter), is opposed thereto.

 

3. The daily bread is under the dispensation of God, (neter).

 

4. When thou ploughest, labour (?) in the field God, (neter), hath given thee.

 

5. If thou wouldst be a perfect man make thy son pleasing to God, (neter).

 

6. God, loveth obedience; disobedience is hateful to God, (neter).

 

7. Verily a good (or, beautiful) son is the gift of God, (neter).

 

From the Precepts, or Teaching, of Khensu-hetep, more generally known as the "Maxims of Ani."

 

1. The God magnifies his name.

 

2. The house of God abominates overmuch speaking. Pray with a loving heart, the words of which are hidden. He will do what is needful for thee, he will hear thy petitions and will accept thine oblations.

 

3. It is thy God, who gives thee existence.

 

4. The God is the judge of the truth.

 

5. When thou makest an offering to thy God beware of offering what he abominates.

 

From the Teaching of Amenemapt.

 

1. Leave the angry man in the hands of God . . . God knows how to requite him (Col. V).

 

2. Carry not away the servant of the God for the benefit of another (Col. VI).

 

3. Take good heed to Nebertcher, (Lord of the Universe) (Col. VIII).

 

4. Though a man's tongue steers the boat, it is Nebertcher who is the pilot (Col. XIX).

 

5. Truth is the great porter (or bearer) of God (Col. XXI).

 

6. Seat thyself in the hands of God (Col. XXII).

 

7. A man prepares the straw for his building, but God is his architect.

 

It is he who throws down, it is he who builds up daily.

 

It is he who makes a man to arrive in Amentt (the Other World) [where] he is safe in the hand of God (Col. XXIV).

 

8. The love of God, praised and adored be he is more than the respect of the Chief (Col. XXVI).

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/tut/tut12.htm

 

Also, I wouldn't doubt that the Egyptians influenced the Psalms. Check out the hymns to Amen, Aten, and the Sun-God Ra in the Tutankhamen/Egyptian Monotheism text.

 

...and the American public really, really, really badly need to get alternative explanations that they can understand.

 

Make a show that say, "Fucking No! Moses didn't exist and it's all a sham", 70% of Americans will not watch it. But present it with some finesse, go half the way, "Okay, Moses maybe existed, but look, here's explanations to why they thought they saw miracles". You might get more viewers, maybe even the fanatic fundamentalists.

I agree 100%, use anything to get them thinking....and thus, questioning.

[pandora]

I have to admit, programs like this were essential to my early questioning of Christianity (long before college and my deconversion). They helped me see a naturalistic explanation of the world. They answered some of "God of the gaps" answers to mysteries. The plagues were one of these. Before I thought that only God could bring such things about, but afterwards, it helped me see in general how natural events can be attributed to God by people without the advantage of science.

 

For liberal Christians, these stories paradoxically help them validate the Bible in some way, but not as an inerrant book, but as a book that is valid enough to look to for some history and insight into the human condition.

[cathuria]

Well, all right; if the show was actually subversive, then I'll agree it's a good thing.

 

And as for the Egyptian influence on Judaism, the similarities are too obvious to ignore. The cult of Yahweh certainly owes a lot to Egyptian theology, and probably a good deal to Ikhnaton's monotheism experiment.

[Stormwarden]

"I am the life. I am the resurrection."

 

-- Found on tomb fragments predating Christianity

 

I am not ruling out the possibility of Moses being a rebellious son of the Pharoah, but I'd like more than speculation.

[MQTA]

 

Well of course, but it still dealt a pretty hard blow to the biblical account. And the Sea of Reeds is a heck of lot more logical than a god blocking and Egyptian Army while a man sticks a staff in the Red Sea and parts it, then leads people through it and then the whole wall of water crushes the Egyptian army. The speculation is far more believable and logical.

 

Penn commented to the bible guy on his BS episode if they explain away the parting of the red sea with the sea of reeds, then it's NOT the Miracle they claim it is.

 

Once you start explaining it away you may as well just explain way the whole book.