Muslim Demographics

[R. S. Martin]

 

I'm inclined to accept that fundamentalist populations such as fundamentalist Muslims and Amish and Mennonites are growing exponentially while the rest of the population in the developed world barely holds its own. However, I'm not so sure that the Christian solution in this video is the right one. The video seems to me very like a scare tactic, polarizing Islam with Christianity. Scare tactics seldom are rational strategies. He thinks the solution is for Christians to start propagating their religion more strongly through larger families and/or evangelism. It's a call for action.

 

I'm just not sure. Is the world worse off with a Muslim majority than with a Christian majority? This may be a bad time to raise the question but the Muslims I know are good people and we all know that Christianity has had its own time in the blood-bath business. Aside from a few terrorist attacks, I don't see the Muslims overtaking the Western world with military force like the Christians did--they do it through the marriage bed. And we have lots of Muslim apostates and lax Muslims or Muslims in name only.

 

Saying on the video that in thirty years Europe will be a Muslim continent, implying that Muslim=violent barbaric and oppressive laws rife with honour killings and genital mutilation and all the dark stuff like shariah law sounds really sinister. Is that worse than what is currently happening with a Christian majority? A close look at Islam shows the Muslims are just as divided as the Christians. I don't think the Muslims will bring back the Dark Ages any faster than the Christians. I think the average young Muslim growing up today has seen what life can be like under humane government. The radicals reeking havoc just stick out, kinda like the Wesboro Baptists picketing funeral and the Christian Right blaming 9/11 on homosexuals and attacking abortion clinics and personnel. Muslim does not equal terrorist any more than Christian equals genocide. 

 

That is my opinion. Possibly someone has facts to prove otherwise. We should keep in mind that the Muslims making the rules thirty years from now are the little kids who are in school today, or just being born, and who knows what kind of world they will face. Those who are 30 today will in another thirty years be sixty, the old guys. In my opinion, people who make videos like the above use current prejudices and assume Muslims tomorrow--kids who are barely born yet--will be exactly like their parents today. Yet anyone who has studied immigrants knows that as people settle into their new countries they change over the course of a few generations, if given a fair chance. From that perspective, I think Muslims, especially in this part of Canada, are in a stage of transition so that tomorrow's generation will see the world differently from today's generation. What is your opinion and what is the basis for it?

[♦ ficino ♦]

In a country run under strict observance to Shariah, I would be put to death as a gay man.

[florduh]

When any fundamentalist religion manages to create a theocratic society/government, it is a cruel and repressive society. Islam is currently doing that in several places, and Christianity would do the same if it had the opportunity.

[R. S. Martin]

When any fundamentalist religion manages to create a theocratic society/government, it is a cruel and repressive society. Islam is currently doing that in several places, and Christianity would do the same if it had the opportunity.

 

What evidence have you that the majority of the world's Muslims and Christians are fundamentalist?  

 

I  mean, we have major countries such as the United States and Turkey whose top leadership is very religious yet the country remains open and humanitarian for a diverse population.

[florduh]

I didn't mean to imply a majority. Obviously, though, there are still plenty of them.

[R. S. Martin]

So the question in my OP is: Given that the world's majority of Muslims are moderate and humane, do we need to fear a future world in which Muslims may hold world power? If you think so, why? 

 

In a country run under strict observance to Shariah, I would be put to death as a gay man.

 

Why do you think Muslims being born today in Canada, the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc., would grow up to govern our countries with strict Shariah observance?

[florduh]

Given that the world's majority of Muslims are moderate and humane, do we need to fear a future world in which Muslims may hold world power?

 

Look to where Muslims are currently in power. You tell me.

 

If the majority are so "moderate" then why are there still honor killings, the murder of infidels and heretics, stonings and whippings occurring and condoned in Muslim strongholds? We've even had honor killings in America because of a belief in Islam. Power is always co-opted by the extremists. I'd rather not give them the opportunity.

[R. S. Martin]

 

Given that the world's majority of Muslims are moderate and humane, do we need to fear a future world in which Muslims may hold world power?

 

Look to where Muslims are currently in power. You tell me.

 

 

 

I will address this below.

 

If the majority are so "moderate" then why are there still honor killings, the murder of infidels and heretics, stonings and whippings occurring and condoned in Muslim strongholds? We've even had honor killings in America because of a belief in Islam. Power is always co-opted by the extremists. I'd rather not give them the opportunity.

 

 

I agree. But what to do? They have the large families. They outnumber "us." Is the solution to fear-monger? To step up Christian evangelism? To have more babies ourselves? What?

 

To answer your question above re where the Muslims are currently in power. I see where you're coming from. You're building on what social conditions exist today in current fundamentalist Muslim countries. You also build on Mediterranean traditions linked to Islam that currently exist to some extent in Muslim communities in the West. Those are valid concerns but they leave me with all the unanswered questions above.

 

I think this is about the future. As I say in the OP: 

 

Christianity has had its own time in the blood-bath business. Aside from a few terrorist attacks, I don't see the Muslims overtaking the Western world with military force like the Christians did--they do it through the marriage bed. And we have lots of Muslim apostates and lax Muslims or Muslims in name only.

 

 

To clarify: Some scholars believe that cultures evolve and that Christianity is the world's most advanced model of social evolution. Some think further social evolution takes us beyond religion but that this has not yet happened. They are trying to figure out why not. But regarding the "Muslim threat," so to speak, this model gives me hope. Let me explain.

 

The video in the OP regards conditions thirty years from now. That means we are talking about people who are just being born, or who have yet to be conceived. The men operating Muslim strong-holds today will be old and ailing by then, or dead. Besides, this video is not about that part of the world and neither do you or I live there. Our concern is places like Canada, the US, UK, France, Germany. These places are not--and have never been--Muslim strongholds. Neither have Muslim relatives such as Arabs lived here before now. 

 

If we look at immigrant populations we know it takes several generations for them to adjust to the new country, to be absorbed. I know we have home-grown terrorists. I also know that our social or cultural specialists are working with the government and lawmakers to find solutions for the crying problems. How do I know this? For one, I personally know one such specialist, a former prof of mine. Also, today I saw the announcement that a Bill will be tabled to ban marriage before age 16 and to end international dealings that encourage/support polygamous marriages. Without commenting on this bill, I know by its existence that our governments are working on the problems. This will shape the world into which today's children--including Muslims--are being born, where they will grow up.

 

Back to my model of cultural evolution. "We" now understand honour killings, forced marriages, stonings, and other such traditional Mediterranean practices to be barbaric, inhumane, and wrong. If we and our governments get our way, the new generation of Muslims in our countries will be protected from such depravities and will hopefully not want to live that way.

 

QUESTION: If "we"  evolved this far as a culture why do we not credit Muslims with the same ability?

[florduh]

QUESTION: If "we"  evolved this far as a culture why do we not credit Muslims with the same ability?

 

All I can say is that it hasn't happened yet; why expect it to happen tomorrow or anytime in the next 1400 years, for that matter?

 

An individual may be capable of changing for the better, but apparently at least one religion and the society it spawns may not be if the last thousand plus years is any indication. 

 

I, like everyone else, have no solutions. What I can't do is pretend Muslim rule would be just fine simply because it may be unavoidable. To this day, they have a horrible track record when it comes to "evolving." 

[R. S. Martin]

Thank you for explaining your position and the reason for it. 

[Ravenstar]

Most Muslims I know here do not have large families.. 2 or 3 children is the norm. Just an observation. The important thing is to learn from Europe… they do not get to come here, enjoy our freedoms and then change our culture/laws to accommodate Sharia law. 

[Orbit]

I don't want to be ruled by anyone who has a religion, Muslim or otherwise-- because they tend to have a mindset that locates law within religion, and they tend not to respect the separation of church and state. For that reason I am less than thrilled at the prospect of Muslims ruling, just as I am less than thrilled at the current situation where Christians rule the US.

[R. S. Martin]

Most Muslims I know here do not have large families.. 2 or 3 children is the norm. Just an observation. The important thing is to learn from Europe… they do not get to come here, enjoy our freedoms and then change our culture/laws to accommodate Sharia law. 

 

You sound more like me and I see you live in the same province. I wonder if perhaps our situation is different from that in the US.

[Ravenstar]

Maybe… my apartment building is about 20% muslim, no one here has more than 3 kids (just one family has 3 - the rest have 2). They come from many various countries also. Turkey, Sudan, Morocco, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia/Sweden, India.

 

They do have a lot of visits from extended family though, and seem to entertain more than native Canadians or other immigrants.

[mikey101]

I hear Christian fundamentalists constantly raving that the Muslims are taking over.  It's so fucking annoying, the intolerance these 'loving Christians' have towards religions different than their own is just the same old vicious cycle.  I say good, let the Muslims take over.  They aren't any different than Christians.  Some Muslims in poor, repressed countries turn to extremism, which is expected.  Civilized Christians bomb the hell out of anyone brown.  Both are fucked.