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TheListener

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I can't comment on the historical details of Acts as I've not studied Roman history. Even if there were such a conflict of 20 or so years difference I would tend to take the Bible's Word rather than human findings.

Doesn't sound too healthy. It even sounds a bit extreme. Would you consider it healthy if I decided to reduce my world view to what is said in the books "Lord of the Rings", and then disregard what evidence or findings there might be in the world that no Orcs exits or ever existed? Wouldn't people think that I'm a geek or maybe have a psychological problem?

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I can't comment on the historical details of Acts as I've not studied Roman history. Even if there were such a conflict of 20 or so years difference I would tend to take the Bible's Word rather than human findings.

Doesn't sound too healthy. It even sounds a bit extreme. Would you consider it healthy if I decided to reduce my world view to what is said in the books "Lord of the Rings", and then disregard what evidence or findings there might be in the world that no Orcs exits or ever existed? Wouldn't people think that I'm a geek or maybe have a psychological problem?

 

 

I certainly would think that if you were to assert that :P

 

Give or take 20 years in archeology is not that big a deal actually. It is hard (from what I know about archeology) to pinpoint exact dates. And history is always subjective.

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Yes yes and yes. God knew it all. What is the point?

The point is that God is the true origin of evil, and the creation wasn't all good after all, since he wasn't all that good. It all comes back to him. So why go to him to be saved from the evil that he invented?

 

God is the true originator of sin, and he provided a solution to the problem that he created, and demands us to take the solution. He's nothing but an evil despot!

 

 

I refer you back to Romans chapters 8 and 9 again.

So what? What is spirit? What is in a spirit? Can you tell the difference between a person with a spirit and one without? And there are a power that can separate you from the Love of God...

 

 

 

 

 

I certainly would think that if you were to assert that :P

Maybe I do... maybe I don't... ;)

 

Give or take 20 years in archeology is not that big a deal actually. It is hard (from what I know about archeology) to pinpoint exact dates. And history is always subjective.

Yes, I can agree to take archeology and the dating a bit cautiously. It was your words of absolutes that raised my eyebrows. You rather believed the Bible than "human findings". Would that account for if they found historical documents that explained the source of Christiantiy? Let's say they found a document written by the apostles in 35 CE, and it explained everything, and the story wasn't at all as our current Bible tell it, would you still believe the Bible story, rather than a document disproving it? :scratch:

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Yes yes and yes. God knew it all. What is the point?

The point is that God is the true origin of evil, and the creation wasn't all good after all, since he wasn't all that good. It all comes back to him. So why go to him to be saved from the evil that he invented?

 

God is the true originator of sin, and he provided a solution to the problem that he created, and demands us to take the solution. He's nothing but an evil despot!

 

 

I refer you back to Romans chapters 8 and 9 again.

So what? What is spirit? What is in a spirit? Can you tell the difference between a person with a spirit and one without? And there are a power that can separate you from the Love of God...

 

 

 

 

 

I certainly would think that if you were to assert that :P

Maybe I do... maybe I don't... ;)

 

Give or take 20 years in archeology is not that big a deal actually. It is hard (from what I know about archeology) to pinpoint exact dates. And history is always subjective.

Yes, I can agree to take archeology and the dating a bit cautiously. It was your words of absolutes that raised my eyebrows. You rather believed the Bible than "human findings". Would that account for if they found historical documents that explained the source of Christiantiy? Let's say they found a document written by the apostles in 35 CE, and it explained everything, and the story wasn't at all as our current Bible tell it, would you still believe the Bible story, rather than a document disproving it? :scratch:

 

 

In response to your comments regarding God creating evil, what evil did God indulge in or condone? Don't say the conquest of the promised lands or the harshness of the law because we could be here all day talking about the brutality of mankind 3,500 years ago compared to today and the sovereignty and justice of God.

 

As for the 'document' explaining everything, which one is it? Who wrote it?

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In response to your comments regarding God creating evil, what evil did God indulge in or condone?

All of it. He made the actors that made it happen. He designed the plan for it to happen. So he not only condoned it, but he's an accomplice. He set it into motion, didn't he? With his superior foreknowledge he knew it would happen, and by that he was more than part of it happening. Maybe he was a passive spectator, but he was fully aware of the sin and evil that was about to be made. And in real life, you would be considered a part of the perpetrators.

 

Don't say the conquest of the promised lands or the harshness of the law because we could be here all day talking about the brutality of mankind 3,500 years ago compared to today and the sovereignty and justice of God.

Why not? But no, definitely not, I'm not going to bring that up. Atrocities have been committed by many religions, and the blood is on the hands of those people claiming God told them to murder in his name.

 

As for the 'document' explaining everything, which one is it? Who wrote it?

Sorry, I didn't make it more clear that it was hypothetical speaking. There's no document, but I was curious that if such a document would show up, would you consider in such case "human findings" have more validity than the Bible?

 

(Besides, what's your take on the Gospel of Thomas?)

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Yup. Pretty much.

 

He made it all, so he set the rules, and the rules are that he does whatever he wants.

 

... which in the end could mean... that he changes his mind about who gets to heaven and not, and for what reasons...

 

He changed his mind once! He fooled a whole "race" of people (the Jews) to believe they would be saved by being Jews, but no... sorry... he changed his mind and made a new "covenant" and all the ones that spend their lifes getting it right, were wrong after all...

 

And this could happen to Christianity too.

 

The real faith today, ordained by God as the newestest ;) covenant: Believe in the Cute Bunny.

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I'm sorry to say this but this pop culture invented in modern day USA about no one wanting to take responsibility for their actions is half the reason western society is in decay, criminals are running amok, drugs and sinfulness is plentiful and everyone is blaming 'the system' rather than taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

What then, are we to sue God for the choices WE make?

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I'm sorry to say this but this pop culture invented in modern day USA about no one wanting to take responsibility for their actions is half the reason western society is in decay, criminals are running amok, drugs and sinfulness is plentiful and everyone is blaming 'the system' rather than taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

What then, are we to sue God for the choices WE make?

Then you should also know that the drugs, alcholism, divorce is highest among Christians in America. You should also know that there are more Christians in the prison system then there are atheists or agnostics.

 

Michael Shermer - The Science of Good and Evil

In 1934, for example, Abraham Franzblau discovered a negative correlation between religiosity and honesty. In 1950, Murray Ross discovered that agnostics and atheists were more willing to help the poor than their deeply religious counterparts. In 1969, sociologists Travis Hirschi and Rodney Stark found no difference between young churchgoers and young non-churchgoers regarding their propensity to commit crimes. Other studies revealed that college-age students in religious schools were no less likely to cheat on exams.

 

Finally, David Wulff's comprehensive survey of studies on the psychology of religion revealed a consistent positive correlation between religious affiliation and ethnocentrism, authoritarianism, dogmatism, intolerance, and racial prejudice. "The conclusion is clear," writes Shermer, "not only does religion not necessarily make one more moral, it can lead to greater intolerance, racism, sexism, and the erosion of other values cherished in a free and democratic society" (236).

 

Even born-again Christian pollster, George Barna, confessed to such discrepancies in his 1996 "Index of Leading Spiritual Indicators." Based on interviews with nearly 4000 Americans, Barna found that "Born-again Christians continue to have a higher likelihood of getting divorced than do non-Christians," and that "atheists are less likely to get divorced than are born-again Christians" (236). The divorce rate for born-again Christians was 27 percent, according to Barna, while the rate was only 24 percent for non-Christians.

 

Over the centuries, monotheism has proved an ineffectual prescription for morality. "Personally," the author reveals, "it would frighten me to believe that the people I deal with on a day-to-day basis treat me tolerably well only because they are afraid of God and divine retribution" (155). Indeed, what manner of behavior should we expect from people of received ethics, i.e., from those who have never struggled consistently and independently with questions of right and wrong?

Taking responsibility is NOT a Christian monopoly - far from it.

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Can you blame a car manufacturer if you decide to drive at 200 mph and delibaretely smash it into a wall?

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I'm sorry to say this but this pop culture invented in modern day USA about no one wanting to take responsibility for their actions is half the reason western society is in decay, criminals are running amok, drugs and sinfulness is plentiful and everyone is blaming 'the system' rather than taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

What then, are we to sue God for the choices WE make?

So you're saying there's more crime today than 100-150 years ago? And you're saying that USA which is the 5th top country of the most Christianized country in the world can't keep up and get crime under control? Does it mean that moral is not that high with Christians after all?

 

No, of course we can't sue God, but we don't deserve a punishment for being the way he made us. It all comes to that this kind of God, does not exist. The Christian, Muslim, Jewish God does not exist.

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God didn't make mankind defective, he gave them free will.

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Can you blame a car manufacturer if you decide to drive at 200 mph and delibaretely smash it into a wall?

You got the allegory wrong.

 

Can you blame a car for being faulty after you designed it wrong?

 

And will you spend the rest of your life punishing the car for it, with a sledgehammer hammering away day after day, because the car had the wrong color?

 

 

God didn't make mankind defective, he gave them free will.

Which we're not allowed to use.

 

"Free will" means the freedom of choice.

 

To be punished for one of the choices is not freedom.

 

It's like the commercial for the first Ford cars "You can choose any color, as long as it's black."

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God didn't make mankind defective, he gave them free will.

How can you claim "free will" and hold the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination? Which is it?

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God didn't make mankind defective, he gave them free will.

How can you claim "free will" and hold the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination? Which is it?

 

God calls those he chooses but you have the free will to make that choice yourself. Your own actions will condemn you not the other way around.

 

Can you blame the bank for being robbed or will you blame the man who robbed the bank?

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God calls those he chooses but you have the free will to make that choice yourself. Your own actions will condemn you not the other way around.

 

Can you blame the bank for being robbed or will you blame the man who robbed the bank?

But, according to YOUR Bible, God not only makes everyone an unbeliever/disobedient, he also holds them responsible for it. “Free will” is the easiest heresy to disprove in the Bible. God violates man's free will from the first to the last chapters. It’s like making someone blind and blaming them for walking into walls.

 

Your bank analogy is already refuted – it would be helpful if could compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges.

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God calls those he chooses but you have the free will to make that choice yourself. Your own actions will condemn you not the other way around.

 

Can you blame the bank for being robbed or will you blame the man who robbed the bank?

Sorry, bad analogy in my opinion.

 

In the case of God, free will and sin, the giver is also the taker. God gave so he could take.

 

It's more like the mob, where they go to a store and tell the owner that he has to pay 10% in protection fee. And the protection is against the same people you're paying to.

 

 

No, of course we can't sue God,

 

Damn! I was so hoping to get at least 10% of my tithes back!! You ruined it Hans!! :vent:

 

Ooopsie! Sorry! I want my 10% back to. Maybe we can sue God in California, where everything goes?

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Has God violated your free will?

 

If God violated our free will we would have all perished by now.

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Here is a scenario:

 

The FACTS: A bank is robbed. One man is seen running away from it. He is wearing a green shirt.

 

One eye witness states: A man was running away wearing a red shirt.

Another says: A man was running away wearing a dark blue shirt.

 

 

My question: Was the bank robbed or not?

 

 

*sigh*

 

I understand how enticing religion is....all the answers are black and white, or yes and no (on the surface) but as you may be discovering from my fellow forum friends (FFFs!), NOTHING in real life is so cut and dry.

 

Let's take your scenario, and apply REAL LIFE to it...

 

When was the bank robbed?

HOW was the bank robbed? Stick-up? Inside job?

How many people were involved in the robbery?

Who noticed the man running away?

Where, in relation to the bank's location, was the running man spotted?

Was the man running away from the bank involved in the robbery?

Was the man running away a witness to the robbery?

Was the man running away in any way a part of the robbery scene? (or was he a jogger who noticed nothing at the time of the event)

 

And...in all honesty, the bank may NOT have been robbed. There may have been a computer glitch, or an input error. You didn't say anything about alarms blaring....cops converging on the area, armed people running out of the bank, or even how the info that the bank was robbed was obtained. Was there a phone call? Silent alarm? Who called? Like it or not....all this info has to be considered in REAL LIFE. REAL LIFE doesn't make the human assumption that a bank robbery involves ski masks, weapons, silent alarms, or even a fast getaway. PEOPLE assume what a bank robbery is. People fill in the blanks with those assumtions, which seem perfectly rational until REAL LIFE adds it's monkey wrench to the works.

 

The Bible works only because you fill in the blanks where assumption is needed. A lot of christians explain away the bible by assuming details which are NOT present in the literature.

 

Please try to read the Bible without assuming anything. Just taking the bare literal text. It's not pretty.

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Has God violated your free will?

 

If God violated our free will we would have all perished by now.

It is the message of the Bible.

 

And it's interesting that you tend to compare "believing in God" to "robbing a bank". In my opinion there is a stark contrast between those two, of which one is enough to render a verdict of such magnitude as eternal punishment.

 

 

Compare it to you telling your kids that they can chose between two kinds of candy.

But you tell them if they chose the blue one, they'll be grounded for the rest of their lifes.

 

 

Seriously, think about it. Will you go to Heaven if you believe in Jesus, but you stole something? And will you go to Hell if you never hurt anyone in your life, but you don't believe in Jesus?

 

To use your free will to hurt people and do wrong, sure I can understand a punishment for such a thing, but to be punished for "not believing" is in my opinion extreme. And that is compared to believers that have no problem to send prisoners to death row.

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Has God violated your free will?

 

If God violated our free will we would have all perished by now.

Yes, he did according to your bible - he MADE everyone disobedient. Read the rest of Romans which you love to quote. (chapters 10-12)

 

Read Romans 5. God condemns everyone for what Adam DID, and not for what they did.

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God calls those he chooses but you have the free will to make that choice yourself. Your own actions will condemn you not the other way around.

Ok... I'm jumping in now because of the use of the "free will" get out clause for God.

 

 

Free will is an impossibility when God is supposed to know everything that has happened, is happening and will happen. The whole Omniscient thing means any choices we might make in the future are, as far as God is concerned, already fixed.

 

If choices are fixed, then what is free will?

 

 

I'm sorry, TheListener, but when you use the "free will" argument, you automatically deny that God is Omniscient, and if you insist that God is Omniscient, you automatically deny the "free will" argument...

 

 

 

 

By the way... If I gave you the choice between giving me all your money or me setting fire to you, is it really free will when you give me the money, or is it a forced choice under threat of violence? And why is it different with the "choice" God gives us?

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And the same God who condemns also freely forgives everyone for what Jesus did.

 

I am not accountible for what Adam did because of what Jesus did. Even though sin was a problem (disputably) introduced by man God took it on himself to resolve that problem.

 

The entire Bible is one big story: God's gracious actions to reverse the effects of human sin.

 

God calls those he chooses but you have the free will to make that choice yourself. Your own actions will condemn you not the other way around.

Ok... I'm jumping in now because of the use of the "free will" get out clause for God.

 

 

Free will is an impossibility when God is supposed to know everything that has happened, is happening and will happen. The whole Omniscient thing means any choices we might make in the future are, as far as God is concerned, already fixed.

 

If choices are fixed, then what is free will?

 

 

I'm sorry, TheListener, but when you use the "free will" argument, you automatically deny that God is Omniscient, and if you insist that God is Omniscient, you automatically deny the "free will" argument...

 

 

 

 

By the way... If I gave you the choice between giving me all your money or me setting fire to you, is it really free will when you give me the money, or is it a forced choice under threat of violence? And why is it different with the "choice" God gives us?

 

 

I knew a post like this was coming sooner or later.

 

Does the fact that I knew this mean I wrote it too? No, you wrote it and it was your free will.

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And the same God who condemns also freely forgives everyone for what Jesus did.

Bzzzzz! Buzzer goes off! Wrong answer!

 

We don't get forgiveness freely, it's conditional, and his love is conditional too. We have to "accept" Jesus and what God supposedly did to get it. It's not free.

 

It's the same kind of false advertisement you see in the papers, "buy one, get one free".

 

It's not true. You get the other one under conditions, and not freely.

 

I am not accountible for what Adam did because of what Jesus did. Even though sin was a problem (disputably) introduced by man God took it on himself to resolve that problem.

You are accountable for what Adam did, if you don't receive Jesus, so yes the people that don't want to chose are held accountable for a sin they didn't commit.

 

And the sin was, as we spoke about before, introduced by God through proxy. He created the problem by planting the tree, and falsely tell A&E about the consequences. (He wasn't honest. Btw, you never answered my question about the snake telling the truth and God lying!)

 

The entire Bible is one big story: God's gracious actions to reverse the effects of human sin.

"Gracious" is a very big word to use in that context. He wasn't gracious, he setup the trap and then he made the escape route. He's just experimenting with us. Like lab-rats.

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I am not accountible for what Adam did because of what Jesus did. Even though sin was a problem (disputably) introduced by man God took it on himself to resolve that problem.

 

The entire Bible is one big story: God's gracious actions to reverse the effects of human sin.

 

Did you choose to be in Adam? No sir, you didn’t. But the fairy tale says you inherited his sin and disobedience. If “God's gracious actions reversed the effects of human sin,” then

 

a ) why do you need to choose to be in Christ by the same analogy of Adam that Paul makes in your favorite book of Romans?

 

b ) The evidence is clearly on the contrary for sin being reversed. Sin (by a Christian definition) is still very much alive among God’s chosen. I guess Jesus did a poor job of paying for sin, and an even more dismal job of “taking away the sins of the world” as John shouted from the mountains.

 

Tell you what I think. It’s just an insurance policy for Christians to escape the invenatble, because they are the “chief sinners” as you labeled yourself. Oh the convenience ...

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We don't get forgiveness freely, it's conditional, and his love is conditional too. We have to "accept" Jesus and what God supposedly did to get it. It's not free.

 

It's the same kind of false advertisement you see in the papers, "buy one, get one free".

 

It's not true. You get the other one under conditions, and not freely.

 

You are accountable for what Adam did, if you don't receive Jesus, so yes the people that don't want to chose are held accountable for a sin they didn't commit.

 

And the sin was, as we spoke about before, introduced by God through proxy. He created the problem by planting the tree, and falsely tell A&E about the consequences. (He wasn't honest. Btw, you never answered my question about the snake telling the truth and God lying!)

 

What price do you have to pay but live a repentant life and believe in Jesus to be saved? What are the alternatives? It has been my experience that the majority of ex-Christians are people who love this world and sin too much that they reject God and this forum has some pornographic subforums to prove that point.

 

Forgiveness is free, compared to judgement. And this world is in dire need of justice which the Almighty will deliver.

 

Tell me, is the world a peaceful place? What have we done wrong?

 

I admit I am a sinner and so I need Jesus' forgiveness or I will face God's judgement. Those who deny their sinfulness are only deceiving themselves.

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