One Verse At A Time...

[Open_Minded]

Throwing gasoline on Fire = Throwing Bible verses to Sub.

 

Notice how much easier it is for him to talk theology than being a human???? (hiding behind the bible.....)

 

 

Zero...

 

Very slowly reach around and undo the straps..... be careful now hold your breath..... and work very carefully and gently as you undo each strap... one wrong move and it could explode. ...

 

Now... once you've undone all the straps ... carefully and slowly put the book down on the table. Be very careful when you place the book on the table... now .... no sudden movements......

 

OK.... now that the book is on the table .... you want to slowly back up ... one step at a time .... zero ... one step at a time.

 

Once you're away from the table ... take a long... ..... deep breath..... Now look around you.....

 

 

Do you see it, zero????? Do you see..... it's ..... it's ..... the REAL WORLD.

 

 

OOPS... forgot the _____ picture.

 

BTW great picture Antlerman... where did you find it

[Mythra]

The Cretians are regularly liars, what is the problem?

 

THIS points out the precise problem. Hansolo pointed out an obvious, incontrovertible contradiction in the bible.

 

Basically stated - A cretian says that cretians always lie. This statement is true.

 

Your christian blinders automatically diluted the saying to saying "cretians regularly lie", thereby resolving the contradiction in your mind - and thinking that we should agree.

 

How can you do that shit with a clear conscience?

 

 

All for Jesus, All for Jesus, Marching on we go

[Ouroboros]

Sub_Zer0, explain this verse:

 

Tit 1:12-13 KJVA One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. (13) This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

 

The word "always" according to Strongs:

 

G104

ἀεί

aei

ah-eye'

From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

 

 

The Cretians are regularly liars, what is the problem?

"Continued duration", "ever", "always", don't you get it? It says Cretans always lie (100% of the time) and I can prove they don't! If I can prove to you that at least one Cretan didn't lie, then I have proven that they do not always lie. Do you want that proof? It would mean the Bible is wrong! And here's the proof, it's proven by the Bible in the same verse. "One of their own prophets ... this witness is true". So which way is it? They always lie or they don't always lie? The Bible contradicts itself here. And why does it do that, by claiming a philosophical paradox as a truth statement, which show how stupid and uneducated the author was (which was Paul).

 

Do you know that this particular verse is wrong in historical, philosophical, factual, logical, theological and sociological meaning? (You can see that in one of the early posts where I specify several of those errors) It breaks every rule and concept and it utterly false and misplaced. It shows how misguided and ill educated Paul was, and it also shows that Paul had less than average intelligence. That's the kind of person and Bible that you adhere to.

 

Again, to recap my initial post about this verse, Paul is quoting Epimenides Paradox, and he tweaks it, misquote it, and he falsely represents the philosopher by claiming he was a prophet.

 

Now, on a sidenote, Epimenides had many stories tied to him. Like miracles and visitations from the Greek pantheon etc. So did Paul admit that Epimenides had connectiong to the Greek gods? Paul basically confirm Epimenides to have a prophetic status, and admitting and validating the Greek gods! Are you prepared to start beliving in the Greek pantheon too? The trinity is going to be rather fat from all the gods you have to add.

[Anakin]

Throwing gasoline on Fire = Throwing Bible verses to Sub.

 

Notice how much easier it is for him to talk theology than being a human???? (hiding behind the bible.....)

 

 

I must say I've learned something from all of this. Prior to joining here I've not

had the opportunity to toss around bible verses to see what kind of response

it gets. Which is OK if the other side is interested in listening. Once it's

determined the other side is a broken record it is obviously futile.

Mr Zero, I'm interested in knowing if you can take up Antlerman's request to

talk to you as you. The bible is meaningless. Time to put it down.

I'd love to see you engage Asimov in a discussion, without the bible, as to

if there is a god or not. What do ya say?

[Ouroboros]

If Asimov and Sub_Zer0 are interested we could open a debate in the arena.

[Mike D]

If Asimov and Sub_Zer0 are interested we could open a debate in the arena.

I think it would be pretty quick.... Asimov would open a can of whup ass on sub_zero_iq and that would be the end of that

[Ouroboros]

You're probably right.

 

The basic ideas of the contents of the debate:

 

Asimov: evidence, logic, reason, rational argument

 

Sub_Zer0: Bible verse, contradiction, cheap excuses, word games, unproven argument

[Mythra]

Hansolo:

 

You left out the finish of the debate. Where Zero claims victory.

[Open_Minded]

The bible is meaningless. Time to put it down. I'd love to see you engage Asimov in a discussion, without the bible, as to

if there is a god or not. What do ya say?

 

Excellent suggestion ... Asimov ... made the offer ages ago.

 

What do you say, Zero, ready to remove the straps, and back up....?

 

I'm sure Asimov will be happy to help you get those damn straps undone ... he'll move slowly too ... so as not to make everything blow up in your face.

[Mythra]

Mr Zero, I'm interested in knowing if you can take up Antlerman's request to

talk to you as you. The bible is meaningless.

 

You want to know the truly scary thing? I strongly suspect that all that's left of Zero is the bible. If you immerse yourself in it long enough, to the exclusion of anything else in the real world, the bible becomes your exclusive reality.

 

I've seen it in other people whom I have known. Get rid of the T.V. No movies. Won't even read a newspaper. Only God. 24/7.

 

Take all of me, Jesus.

 

Pity the poor bastard.

 

Here's crossing my fingers that someday the bubble bursts.

[Ouroboros]

Mat 6:13 KJVA And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

 

"For ever":

G165

αἰών

aiōn

ahee-ohn'

From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

 

So, suppose you're right Sub_Zer0 that "always" is not to be interpreted as "always" but "most of the time", or "some times". Then you have the problem of, does the kingdom, power and glory belong to God "always" or only for "some time"? Do you believe your God is going down, bubba?

[Asimov]

If Asimov and Sub_Zer0 are interested we could open a debate in the arena.

 

I'm interested as long as it's not a debate about biblical validity and about the foundation of Christianity; namely the existence of God.

[Ouroboros]

Sub_Zer0, if you're interested, put a post in this thread, and I will start a thread where we draw the guidelines for the debate, and establish the formal title. I guess it would be "Existence of God" or "Does God exist?"

[Mythra]

And we wait breathlessly for an event that holds all of the potential of the spectacular Asimov v. Razor debacle.

[thunderbolt]

If Asimov and Sub_Zer0 are interested we could open a debate in the arena.

My guess is that Zer0 will never fall for that debate, because without his Bible he truly has no evidence or concept of a God.

 

Case

[Open_Minded]

I'm interested as long as it's not a debate about biblical validity and about the foundation of Christianity; namely the existence of God.

 

Come on zer0 .... you can do it. You can lay a foundation for your belief in God without the Bible..... I know you can.

[Taphophilia]

 

3) Christmas is just something to celebrate Christ’s birth, it isn’t pagan, if it was they would do what the pagans do. Which I am sure is not celebrate Christ.

 

 

Sub,

 

You really should do some history research.

 

Christmas is an ancient pagan holiday. Halloween is Christian. Halloween was conceived and first celebrated by the the early Christians. The celebration of Christmas fades into prehistory and was adopted and adapted to Christainity. I even knew this when I was a Christian.

 

When Chrsitainity was new, Mithras and Mithraism was already ancient. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother.

Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God (Mythras) was born one more, putting an end to darkness.

Every year at first minute of December 25th (Did you get that date?) the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God (Mithras) and boys burned incense.

 

It don't get any more pagan than that!

 

Oh and pagan miracles:

 

The Emperor Vespasian's spittle cures a blind man BEFORE Jesus did that.

 

At Alexandria a commoner, whose eyes were well known to have wasted away ...fell at Vespasian's feet demanding with sobs a cure for his blindness, and imploring that the Emperor would deign to moisten his eyes and eyeballs with the spittle from his mouth.

... Vespasian .... did as the men desired him. Immediately the hand recovered its functions and daylight shone once more in the blind man's eyes. Those who were present still attest both miracles today, when there is nothing to gain by lying.

Tacitus, The Annals of Imperial Rome, 4.81

 

Apollonius of Tyana uses magic words to raise a girl from death; She was only asleep. BEFORE Jesus did that.

 

A girl had died just in the hour of her marriage, and the bridegroom was following her bier lamenting as was natural his marriage left unfulfilled, and the whole of Rome was mourning with him, for the maiden belonged to a consular family. Apollonius then witnessing their grief, said : "Put down the bier, for I will stay the tears that you are shedding for this maiden." And withal he asked what was her name. The crowd accordingly thought that he was about to deliver such an oration as is commonly delivered as much to grace the funeral as to stir up lamentation ; but he did nothing of the kind, but merely touching her and whispering in secret some spell over her, at once woke up the maiden from her seeming death ; and the girl spoke out loud, and returned to her father's house, just as Alcestis did when she was brought back to life by Hercules.

Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, 4.45

 

Dionysis turned water into wine BEFORE Jesus did that.

 

Why do we have the SAME miracles preformed by ancient pagan gods before Jesus did them?

 

Taph

 

(I would be surprised if you answered me, Sub.)

[Eponymic]

When Chrsitainity was new, Mithras and Mithraism was already ancient. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother.

Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God (Mythras) was born one more, putting an end to darkness.

Every year at first minute of December 25th (Did you get that date?) the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God (Mithras) and boys burned incense.

 

It don't get any more pagan than that!

 

Indeed, and there are actually several other ancient mythos/Gods that had birthday's on December 25th before it was stolen by the church.

[Taphophilia]

 

Indeed, and there are actually several other ancient mythos/Gods that had birthday's on December 25th before it was stolen by the church.

 

Did you read that Sub!

 

Dying and rising gods, miracles (the same ones Jesus did especially turning water into wine, raising the dead, healing the sick, walking on water, some ancient pagan gods could walk on air, Jesus didn't even do that), prophesy (and they all came true), baptism by water, a holy meal (bread and wine), virgin births (with the mother being a mortal woman and the father being a devine god man), immortality of the soul, blood sacrifice, the good dead going to paradise beholding the glory of god, and the not so good dead going to Hades, were all ancient pagan religious beliefs centuries before Christianity.

 

Please, explain to us how Christianity is different from ancient pagan faiths, considering that Christianity developed in the same culture where the religions of that culture believed and practiced the above.

 

Taph

[♦ ficino ♦]

A Coptic christian will differ with you. You can assert whatever you want, but unless you provide supernatural proof that your list is the absolute correct word of god, I will not believe you.

 

What will prove it to you besides the fact it is physically there, what more do you need? The absolute proof is the writing that is in the Bible, the Word of God. I can offer you no more than what is written.

 

 

sub_zer0, the point is that different collections of writings are all physically there. My Catholic bible has books that are not in the protestant bible. One of these is II Maccabees. That book gives the basis for purgatory. You apparently deny that II Maccabees is part of the bible. If you deny it is scripture, and if you deny purgatory, you are a heretic. You will go to hell.

 

 

 

No, they all represent the same things and say the same things. Just some are for readability more than literal renderings of the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. You see the Word of God and the Good News is being spread worldwide thanks to the various translations. The KJV isn’t even based on the most updated and oldest manuscripts.

 

 

sub, do you read Greek and Hebrew? If so, give evidence of this. If you don't read these languages, then keep silent about the reliability of translations. From what you have said, "dhlon estin oti ouk anagigknwskeis ta hellenika."

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I know Mormons would say that, so that is their authority… Likewise for Christians and the Bible.

 

No, the council decided what books to be canonized based on set beliefs. I am sure they chose right, just a faith thing I guess and I have no qualms about anything about the canonization process of the Bible.

 

 

you do not know what you are talking about.

 

 

 

I have already gone over this. The Dead Sea Scrolls, were found in the 20th century, they are the oldest ever found, 1000 years older than anything we had.

 

That tells us that for a 1000 years the manuscripts that made up the Bible were transmitted and copied with the utmost care and accuracy because the older scrolls were the same as the newer ones we already had.

 

False. There are notable differences between the Masoretic text and that found in the Dead Sea scrolls.

 

 

 

No, there weren’t any canons at all. There were just writings, some from God, some not.

 

This is meaningless or false. It's false if you claim that there are not different canons in different denominations.

 

 

 

And on what authority did they make that decision?

 

Okay, one last time… On the belief and authority on Christ’s life and teachings.

 

you can say nothing about christ's life and teachings except by reference to canonical scriptures. So back to square one. In fact you know nothing about Christ's life and teachings, and neither does anyone else.

 

 

 

 

The NT was done by the end of the 1st century. Not only did they have the OT but they had Christ and His teachings fresh in their minds, hearts and writings, which later became the NT.

 

 

False. Circular.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Cretians are regularly liars, what is the problem?

 

First problem, there is no such national group as "cretians." It's Cretans. Second, not all people in Crete are liars. Epimenides speaks rhetorically. Paul takes him literally and errs.

 

By the way, you said that Titus was the author of the Epistle to Titus. Wrong again. You know little about biblical writings.

[Guest sub_zer0]

 

Indeed, and there are actually several other ancient mythos/Gods that had birthday's on December 25th before it was stolen by the church.

 

Did you read that Sub!

 

Dying and rising gods, miracles (the same ones Jesus did especially turning water into wine, raising the dead, healing the sick, walking on water, some ancient pagan gods could walk on air, Jesus didn't even do that), prophesy (and they all came true), baptism by water, a holy meal (bread and wine), virgin births (with the mother being a mortal woman and the father being a devine god man), immortality of the soul, blood sacrifice, the good dead going to paradise beholding the glory of god, and the not so good dead going to Hades, were all ancient pagan religious beliefs centuries before Christianity.

 

Please, explain to us how Christianity is different from ancient pagan faiths, considering that Christianity developed in the same culture where the religions of that culture believed and practiced the above.

 

Taph

 

Look the 25th of December for Christians is to celebrate Christ's birth. I know that, that isn't when He was born, if anything it was around April.

[Asimov]

Look the 25th of December for Christians is to celebrate Christ's birth. I know that, that isn't when He was born, if anything it was around April.

 

Based on a rock solid foundation of bullshit.

[SkepticOfBible]

Look the 25th of December for Christians is to celebrate Christ's birth. I know that, that isn't when He was born, if anything it was around April.

 

Obviously you don't believe us, so why don't you hear from one of your bretherns, who are more honest than you.

 

Do some Christmas traditions have pagan origins?(Gotquestions.org)

 

Answer: Many of the modern day traditions of Christmas do come from pagan practices; the Christmas tree, mistletoe, gift giving, even the date of December 25th. In the early centuries of the church, the Roman Catholic Church replaced a pagan festival holiday with a celebration of Christ’s birth. They did not do away with the pagan traditions, they simply mixed them into the new holiday.

 

By adopting heathen ritual in a their religion, christians like you have done exactly what the OT God told them not to do, and is violation of huge proportions

 

Jer 10:2-5

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

 

Christians set up trees, decorate them with silver tinsel, gold balls and religious ornaments, gather around it, put up lights, put on pageants, and engage in exactly the things God told them NOT to do.

 

How are you serving God by following and adopting the custom of recognizing a pagan god's birthday(Mithra) as the birthday of Jesus?

 

Jesus never instructed that his birthday be celebrated, nor is there any birth date given in the New Testament. It definately is not biblical, yet you observe it.

 

Isn't it ironic, a few post back you condemned the charismatic\pentacostal churches for following a unbiblical movement(which is not, because atleast there are some references to it), yet on the other hand you follow a ritual, which laugh in the face of the instructions your God gave in the Old Testament.

 

Off course, you are gonna say Jesus fulfilled this law too, so you don't have to observe it?By that reasoning every violation of the OT laws are justified even Homosexuality, cause Jesus fulfilled that OT law.

 

Your observance of Sabbath on a Sunday has pagan origin. It's is probably no coincidence that Mithra who was a SUN God and whose day was SUN DAY, had his day adopted by Christians as their "Sabbath" or Lord's day.

 

Sabbath (Catholic Encylcopedia)

 

The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day

 

Once again christians violated a important law, which was stated twice in the OT

Lev 20:23,26

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

 

The Sabbath and christmas aren't just the only ones that have pagan origins, there are even more.

 

If these early christians were willing to accomodate their traditions so as to gain converts, then one also wonder whether such accomodation were also reflected in the writings.

 

Rather than setting a higher standard, christianity modified it's Judaitic roots to accomodate to the culture of target audience.

 

Yet today, one of the complains that fundies make, is that many christian sect have adjusted to the present world, not the other way round. Can't you see the hypocrisy with this sort of stance?

 

Such pious hypocrites then advertise to the world that the Bible God's laws are the moral foundation of the universe and that his laws should be followed by all "moral" societies.

.....

I'll get back to you on the other stuff. This time, I promise, I'll deal with one topic at time.

[Open_Minded]

Yooo ..... Hooooo..... Zer0....

 

Ignoring what you don't want to deal with again..... Asimov offered to debate. Several people have posted their willingness to close this "conversation" and open a debate between You and Asimov.

 

Yooo ...... Hoooooo .... Zer0....... answer the invitation please.

 

I'm interested as long as it's not a debate about biblical validity and about the foundation of Christianity; namely the existence of God.

Come on zer0 .... you can do it. You can lay a foundation for your belief in God without the Bible..... I know you can.

[Taphophilia]

Questions I asked:

 

Why do we have the SAME miracles preformed by ancient pagan gods before Jesus did them?

 

Please, explain to us how Christianity is different from ancient pagan faiths, considering that Christianity developed in the same culture where the religions of that culture believed and practiced the above.

 

Taph

 

Your answer: (You responded to my statement and did NOT answer my questions.)

 

Look the 25th of December for Christians is to celebrate Christ's birth. I know that, that isn't when He was born, if anything it was around April.

 

Are you mentally deficient?