One Verse At A Time...

[Guest sub_zer0]

The purple words are DESCRIBING the red words. That is all. Serpent is describing the nature of the dragon. The dragon is an old serpent. The presence of satan and his angels on earth does NOT mean they were in the garden of Eden. They were on earth. That is all.

 

They say NOTHING of the presence of satan in the Garden of Eden.

 

The serpent is describing the nature of the dragon. Wrong, it describes the dragon AND Satan, the devil.

 

rev. 12:9serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

 

Now let's take that, what is bolded and see what else matches up to it in the Bible when describing Satan or the devil, because as we know the serpent is also called the "devil and Satan". So with that phrase in your mind, lets look at Isaiah 14:12.

 

12"How you have fallen from heaven,

O star of the morning, son of the dawn!

You have been cut down to the earth,

You who have weakened the nations! "

 

The bolded parts are the relevant parts. The devil has many names throughout the Bible.

 

Keep in mind, Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden....they no longer had the right to be there according to god.

 

The snake was punished......but WAS IT EJECTED from Eden? NO it wasn't!

 

By that logic, satan was punished, but allowed to remain in the special garden, while Adam and Eve were cast out, and an angel guard posted to prevent their return!

 

That doesn't make any sense! The snake cannot be satan, and there is nothing in the bible that says the snake is satan.

 

You have not taken into consideration that Satan is not literally the snake. As in Satan is not the snake, Satan was the influence maybe even possesion behind the talking of the snake.

 

The people who wrote the creation fable in the bible didn't believe in Satan. Satan was a creation of late judaic theology, post babylonian exile.

 

Since the first 5 books of the bible were likely written and compliled some starting about 900 BCE and were finished by 500 BCE they predate the concept of satan in Judaism by at least 100 years. This is why you only find Satan mentioned in Daniel in the old testament.

 

And no the book of Job doesn't count because the Satan in Job is not a fallen angel, he is an angel who goes around testing people to see how faithful they are to God. Try to rectify this story with the fact that Satan was supposed to be thrown out of heaven, and yet he repetedly come to God in heaven and discusses Job with God.

 

No its obvious to anyone that the satan in Job has nothing in common with the christian concept of Satan, which did not exist until 350BCE at the earliest.

 

The point about Satan is all about what happens in Job.

 

So according to this, you only study those who affirm your point of view and stay within your little box. You don't bother to see what the other points of view, research, and history outside of your views are before forming your opinions or beliefs. That's what this says to me.

 

Other points of view... Are you really gonna sit there and say that when I am on exchristian.net forums?

 

Oh, and excuse me. Didn't you come here & offer to answer questions/quandries about Bible verses? You're basically negating your whole thread.

 

I did, Revelation 12:9.

 

You mean something like this:

Luk 1:3 KJVA It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Luke wrote to Theophilus, not God.

 

No, no, no... God is still working through them by the Holy Spirit.

 

1Co 4:14 KJVA I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

Paul thought he was God? Or is Paul God in your eyes?

 

Paul was also led by the Holy Spirit.

 

1Co 14:37 KJVA If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Paul thought he was writing for God. You just happen to trust Pauls words when he say that he did. But it is Paul's words, not God writing it.

 

You want me to continue?

 

Paul had the Holy Spirit and was influenced to write those things because of it.

 

Your opinion is that man were led by God to write those things, but that's just an assumption based on their own words. It's like me saying "I'm telling you the truth, because I'm telling you the truth, and I don't lie"... wait a minute, someone else said that already... and it was just as wrong argument then as now.

 

Need I quote how many times they all refer to the Holy Spirit overtaking them, God leading them, etc, etc?

 

 

How the context goes is totally arbitrarily based on which denominations, church and preacher you're listening to. I heard sermons where the "don't add or remove anything" from Revelations was preached as the context for the WHOLE Bible. Let's remove those preachers as false preachers. And then we go on the all the other preachers wrongful contexts that doesn't match yours. Aaah, we end up with ... no preachers... damn! All of the, for all time have made contextual errors according to your little way of seeing things, so we have no-one to listen to, and no one is right, all of them false, besides YOU! WOW!

 

Like I said it can be used as something to adhere to when reading the Bible, but it's CONTEXT is within Revelation.

 

 

You mean something like this:

 

Luk 1:3 KJVA It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

 

Luke wrote to Theophilus, not God.

 

No, no, no... God is still working through them by the Holy Spirit.

 

1Co 4:14 KJVA I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

 

Paul thought he was God? Or is Paul God in your eyes?

 

Paul was also led by the Holy Spirit.

 

1Co 14:37 KJVA If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

 

Paul thought he was writing for God. You just happen to trust Pauls words when he say that he did. But it is Paul's words, not God writing it.

 

You want me to continue?

 

Paul had the Holy Spirit and was influenced to write those things because of it.

 

Your opinion is that man were led by God to write those things, but that's just an assumption based on their own words. It's like me saying "I'm telling you the truth, because I'm telling you the truth, and I don't lie"... wait a minute, someone else said that already... and it was just as wrong argument then as now.

 

Need I quote how many times they all refer to the Holy Spirit overtaking them, God leading them, etc, etc?

 

 

How the context goes is totally arbitrarily based on which denominations, church and preacher you're listening to. I heard sermons where the "don't add or remove anything" from Revelations was preached as the context for the WHOLE Bible. Let's remove those preachers as false preachers. And then we go on the all the other preachers wrongful contexts that doesn't match yours. Aaah, we end up with ... no preachers... damn! All of the, for all time have made contextual errors according to your little way of seeing things, so we have no-one to listen to, and no one is right, all of them false, besides YOU! WOW!

 

Like I said it can be used as something to adhere to when reading the Bible, but it's CONTEXT is within Revelation.

[Ouroboros]

You're question wasn't who inspired the words, but who "wrote" the words:

Nope, God is the author of the Bible. You wanna back that up with scripture that man wrote it?

Maybe you should be a little more specific?

 

I know the Bible says "God inspired it", but it doesn't say "God wrote it".

 

So my answers are correct to your question.

[Kuroikaze]

The point about Satan is all about what happens in Job.

 

is this supposed to be a coherent responce because I have no idea what you mean by this statement.

[thunderbolt]

Like I said it can be used as something to adhere to when reading the Bible, but it's CONTEXT is within Revelation.

Actually, the context has nothing to do with Revelation. The scribal errors, editions, deletions and forgeries were so rampant at the time, that the poor authors had the THREATEN the scribes with some dire consequences in order to have their works preserved more or less as they intended.

 

But sadly, none of these threats helped, and we still ended with a Word of man God which contains between 200,000 – 400,000 variants between the 5700 NEW TESTAMENT ONLY manuscripts (none complete) in existence to date. In other words, there are more variants in the manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.

 

Source: Misquoting Jesus – Barth Ehrman

Ph.D. Princeton Theological Seminary (magna cum laude), 1985

M.Div. Princeton Theological Seminary, 1981

B.A. Wheaton College, Illinois (magna cum laude), 1978

[crazy-tiger]

The purple words are DESCRIBING the red words. That is all. Serpent is describing the nature of the dragon. The dragon is an old serpent. The presence of satan and his angels on earth does NOT mean they were in the garden of Eden. They were on earth. That is all.

 

They say NOTHING of the presence of satan in the Garden of Eden.

 

The serpent is describing the nature of the dragon. Wrong, it describes the dragon AND Satan, the devil.

 

rev. 12:9serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

 

Now let's take that, what is bolded and see what else matches up to it in the Bible when describing Satan or the devil, because as we know the serpent is also called the "devil and Satan". So with that phrase in your mind, lets look at Isaiah 14:12.

 

12"How you have fallen from heaven,

O star of the morning, son of the dawn!

You have been cut down to the earth,

You who have weakened the nations! "

 

The bolded parts are the relevant parts. The devil has many names throughout the Bible.

Maybe he did have many names, but he was never a king of Babylon... Which is who that verse is refering to.

 

 

So, since that verse isn't talking about Satan at all, where is your evidence?

[Fweethawt]

I mean when they say I have to adhere to what Revelation says, when it is pertaining to just Revelation not the whole Bible. Context!

 

Okay, now that makes sense.

No it doesn't.

 

It's an apologetic cop-out.

 

Like I said earlier, the apologist

HAS TO "add to" and "take away"

words and meanings all of the

time in order to make the story

more convincing.

 

NOTE: I didn't say true, I said convincing.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Maybe he did have many names, but he was never a king of Babylon... Which is who that verse is refering to.

 

 

So, since that verse isn't talking about Satan at all, where is your evidence?

 

Since when was the king of Babylon ever a cherub, or in the Garden of Eden, or named Lucifer?

[crazy-tiger]

Of course, if you add to or take away from what is in the Bible, it's no longer the Perfect Word of God, is it?

[Guest sub_zer0]

Maybe you should be a little more specific?

 

I know the Bible says "God inspired it", but it doesn't say "God wrote it".

 

So my answers are correct to your question.

 

How about this then. God guided the writing of the Bible through the Holy Spirit.

[crazy-tiger]

Maybe he did have many names, but he was never a king of Babylon... Which is who that verse is refering to.

 

 

So, since that verse isn't talking about Satan at all, where is your evidence?

 

Since when was the king of Babylon ever a cherub, or in the Garden of Eden, or named Lucifer?

Isaiah 14...

1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob;

once again he will choose Israel

and will settle them in their own land.

Aliens will join them

and unite with the house of Jacob.

 

2 Nations will take them

and bring them to their own place.

And the house of Israel will possess the nations

as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land.

They will make captives of their captors

and rule over their oppressors.

 

3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

How the oppressor has come to an end!

How his fury has ended!

 

5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,

the scepter of the rulers,

 

6 which in anger struck down peoples

with unceasing blows,

and in fury subdued nations

with relentless aggression.

 

7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;

they break into singing.

 

8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon

exult over you and say,

"Now that you have been laid low,

no woodsman comes to cut us down."

 

9 The grave below is all astir

to meet you at your coming;

it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—

all those who were leaders in the world;

it makes them rise from their thrones—

all those who were kings over the nations.

 

10 They will all respond,

they will say to you,

"You also have become weak, as we are;

you have become like us."

 

11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,

along with the noise of your harps;

maggots are spread out beneath you

and worms cover you.

 

12 How you have fallen from heaven,

O morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the earth,

you who once laid low the nations!

 

13 You said in your heart,

"I will ascend to heaven;

I will raise my throne

above the stars of God;

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,

on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

 

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High."

 

15 But you are brought down to the grave,

to the depths of the pit.

 

16 Those who see you stare at you,

they ponder your fate:

"Is this the man who shook the earth

and made kingdoms tremble,

 

17 the man who made the world a desert,

who overthrew its cities

and would not let his captives go home?"

 

18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,

each in his own tomb.

 

19 But you are cast out of your tomb

like a rejected branch;

you are covered with the slain,

with those pierced by the sword,

those who descend to the stones of the pit.

Like a corpse trampled underfoot,

 

20 you will not join them in burial,

for you have destroyed your land

and killed your people.

The offspring of the wicked

will never be mentioned again.

 

21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons

for the sins of their forefathers;

they are not to rise to inherit the land

and cover the earth with their cities.

 

22 "I will rise up against them,"

declares the LORD Almighty.

"I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors,

her offspring and descendants,"

declares the LORD.

 

23 "I will turn her into a place for owls

and into swampland;

I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,"

declares the LORD Almighty.

Note the bolded part where it SPECIFIES THAT IT IS A TAUNT AGAINST THE KING OF BABYLON!

 

Note the second bolded part when it is SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT A MAN!

 

Isaiah 14 is not, in any way, refering to Satan.

[aynalhub]

Maybe he did have many names, but he was never a king of Babylon... Which is who that verse is refering to.

 

 

So, since that verse isn't talking about Satan at all, where is your evidence?

 

Since when was the king of Babylon ever a cherub, or in the Garden of Eden, or named Lucifer?

 

Isaiah 14 is clearly talking about the Babylonian and Assyrian empires falling, and does not mention a cherub, the garden of Eden or Lucifer. What are you talking about? And to help the others you've been ignoring.

 

Do the people with Paul on the road to Damascus hear Jesus' voice or not?'

 

Did Moses write about his own death?

[SkepticOfBible]

You have not taken into consideration that Satan is not literally the snake. As in Satan is not the snake, Satan was the influence maybe even possesion behind the talking of the snake.

 

 

So when God cursed the snake that he slither on the earth, he really didn't mean it literally? I see.

 

Please give biblical proof for you assertion about the influence of Satan on the snake.

 

Let me make the question very clear. Show us verses from the OT which demonstrate the following.

 

1)Satan is snake

2)That Satan is a rebel angel who was kicked out of heaven

 

You will not find a single verse in the OT which proves your above assertion.

 

The Devil/Satan concept (along with many other concept) was invented in the NT. This was most likely borrowed from existing Greek mythology.

 

Besides you never answered my question

 

1)How eternal and perfect law end in christ?

2)Where are the verses in OT which says part of the law will be taken away when the messiah arrives. I have shown verses from the OT which shows otherwise

 

Otherwise I would have to come to the following conclusion, when the Old Testament becomes an obstacle to your beliefs, you proceed to ignore some of the basic tenets that it lays down. God's moral absolutes often become temporary and are no longer needed once Jesus appears (which is not supported by OT)

 

In short, Christians kidnap the Old Testament God, use him as an appeal to authority, and then proceed to alter the very teachings that are found in the Old Testament.

 

You invent your own rules and then pretend God agrees with you.

 

As a final note, the prophet Isaiah had something to say about those who attempt to dismiss the law.

 

Isa 8:20

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

According to Isaiah, Christians like you have no light in them.

 

You mock the very God they claim to worship, for they wish to "finish" the law and erect a human sacrifice icon as an excuse to ignore it.

[Ouroboros]

Maybe you should be a little more specific?

 

I know the Bible says "God inspired it", but it doesn't say "God wrote it".

 

So my answers are correct to your question.

 

How about this then. God guided the writing of the Bible through the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, I don't quite agree to that. From what I remember it says "inspired by", and not guided.

 

I my opinion that is the same as the moon would inspire someone to write a song, or a flower inspire someone to make a painting, or the awe of cosmos inspire someone to write a poem. They were inspired by the idea of this new god, but not guided.

[SkepticOfBible]

How about this then. God guided the writing of the Bible through the Holy Spirit.

What makes you think that is the case. Where is your proof.

 

These people were writing theological ideas just as any other religious writing.

 

The NT contradict the OT and itself so many times. The NT lies about so many theological concepts about the OT. The y take verses out of context from hebrew scripture and twist them to serve their idealogical agenda

 

Also these writers also wrote other books. Why are they not part of the canon?Who decided the canon?Men or God?

[white_raven23]

The Revelations verse describes the dragon.....I never disputed that.

The Revelations verse describes Satan....I never disputed that either....

 

 

THAT VERSE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT SATAN BEING IN, OR INFLUENCING ANY CREATURES WHATSOEVER WITHIN THE GARDEN OF EDEN!

 

I asked for Biblical proof that the snake in the garden was Satan! There isn't even any proof that Satan influenced the animal in the bible......you SAYING it happened is NOT biblical proof.

 

There is not biblical proof Satan had anything to do with Eden.

None.

 

A verse describing the nature of Satan does not put him, or his influence in the garden. Period.

 

Very simple rule of any storytelling or Literature. If there is a connection between A an B the storyteller or author is obligated to make that association known!

 

It is not for the listening or reading audience to make that connection. It is the job of the author.

 

There are an unknown number of authors responsible for the bible....NOT ONE has inferred , written, hinted, or even supposed anything associating Satan in any way with the garden of Eden.

 

I really don't see how this could be any clearer.

[SkepticOfBible]

Paul had the Holy Spirit and was influenced to write those things because of it.

Many christian claim to have the holy spirit, but that is not true

 

Apparently "the Holy Spirit" speaking via the prophet Ezekiel has the following to say about what happens to an individual who has received God's Holy Spirit:

 

Ezekiel 11:19-20 RSV

"And I will give them one heart, and PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN THEM; I will take the stony heart out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, THAT THEY MAY WALK IN MY STATUTES AND KEEP MY ORDINANCES AND OBEY THEM; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

 

Ezekiel 36:26-27 RSV

" A new heart I will give you, and A NEW SPIRIT I WILL PUT WITHIN YOU and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I WILL PUT _MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU_ AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES and BE CAREFUL TO OBSERVE MY ORDINANCES."

 

Paul did not observe the OT, on the contrary he taught that the law was obselete and told people that they are not under the law.

 

Paul fits the description of what God called "wicked".

Psa 50:16-17

But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?

Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.

 

Nope, God is the author of the Bible. You wanna back that up with scripture that man wrote it?

 

Allah/God is the author of Quran. Prove it with scripture that man wrote it

 

See, making assertions is rather easy, demonstrating it is much harder.

[Eponymic]

Other points of view... Are you really gonna sit there and say that when I am on exchristian.net forums?

 

Yes, when all you're doing on here is preaching and not listening in any way. Which so far is all I've seen.

 

 

I did, Revelation 12:9.

 

Right, and it's been brought up numerous times that the verse you gave has nothing to do with the Genesis story. And all you've given since then is your own opinion & hearsay. And even worse, instead of explaining your position, you simply requote the same verse three times as if we don't see it for what it is.

[MQTA]

Um. I think I may want to go through this thread some day and answer some of the posts about the Bible from what I glean from my intital reading of the Rael.org ebook and videos that are on that site.

 

If you see the players in the Bible as Raelian scientists, the Bible seems to read quite differently. Still have some questions, but my head is freakin spinning round and round. I'm only up to page 80 of the ebook, but the first 79 goes through OT and explains a lot of the writing as to what it 'really' means.

 

It's mind blowing. It really is.

 

Elohim, translated without justification in some Bibles by the word God means in Hebrew "those who came from the sky". It's plural.

 

The videos on that site help a little, but the ebook.... wow that explains it all! I'm only up to page 80 and it's 390 pages. I hope some people from here read it, would like to talk about it some.

 

WOW!

What an unexpected twist.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Isaiah 14 is clearly talking about the Babylonian and Assyrian empires falling, and does not mention a cherub, the garden of Eden or Lucifer. What are you talking about? And to help the others you've been ignoring.

 

Do the people with Paul on the road to Damascus hear Jesus' voice or not?'

 

Did Moses write about his own death?

 

Lucifer was a cherub and in the Garden of Eden is what I mean. Lucifer is actually mentioned right there in verse 12 and see how he was cast down? Sounds much like the other references to that old serpent the devil and Satan.

[Kuroikaze]

The people who wrote the creation fable in the bible didn't believe in Satan. Satan was a creation of late judaic theology, post babylonian exile.

 

Since the first 5 books of the bible were likely written and compliled some starting about 900 BCE and were finished by 500 BCE they predate the concept of satan in Judaism by at least 100 years. This is why you only find Satan mentioned in Daniel in the old testament.

 

And no the book of Job doesn't count because the Satan in Job is not a fallen angel, he is an angel who goes around testing people to see how faithful they are to God. Try to rectify this story with the fact that Satan was supposed to be thrown out of heaven, and yet he repetedly come to God in heaven and discusses Job with God.

 

No its obvious to anyone that the satan in Job has nothing in common with the christian concept of Satan, which did not exist until 350BCE at the earliest.

 

The point about Satan is all about what happens in Job.

 

I'm still waiting for a reply to my post.....this reply doesn't even seem coherent to me....does anyone else understand what sub_zer0 is saying here?

[Guest sub_zer0]

So when God cursed the snake that he slither on the earth, he really didn't mean it literally? I see.

 

No, that is quite literal and implied to be so. You see you thinking the snake is in fact Satan is wrong. Satan is Lucifer, a fallen angel from heaven.

 

Please give biblical proof for you assertion about the influence of Satan on the snake.

 

Because in Revelation 12:9 it states, that serpent of old the devil and satan...

 

Let me make the question very clear. Show us verses from the OT which demonstrate the following.

 

1)Satan is snake

2)That Satan is a rebel angel who was kicked out of heaven

 

You will not find a single verse in the OT which proves your above assertion.

 

The Devil/Satan concept (along with many other concept) was invented in the NT. This was most likely borrowed from existing Greek mythology.

 

1.) Satan is or was in some how control of the snake, or perhaps became the snake for a short amount of time by possession. See Revelation 12:9 that states, the "serpent of old the devil and Satan.."

 

2.) Isaiah 14:12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

Lucifer is Satan. You can see that if you draw a parallel between Isaiah 14:12 and Revelation 12:9.

 

Besides you never answered my question

 

1)How eternal and perfect law end in christ?

2)Where are the verses in OT which says part of the law will be taken away when the messiah arrives. I have shown verses from the OT which shows otherwise

 

1.) It didn't end, it was fulfilled in Christ and ultimately widened its scope to all peoples not just Israel and the Jews.

2.) Jeremiah 30 is all about the New Covenant.

 

 

The Revelations verse describes the dragon.....I never disputed that.

The Revelations verse describes Satan....I never disputed that either....

 

 

THAT VERSE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT SATAN BEING IN, OR INFLUENCING ANY CREATURES WHATSOEVER WITHIN THE GARDEN OF EDEN!

 

I asked for Biblical proof that the snake in the garden was Satan! There isn't even any proof that Satan influenced the animal in the bible......you SAYING it happened is NOT biblical proof.

 

There is not biblical proof Satan had anything to do with Eden.

None.

 

A verse describing the nature of Satan does not put him, or his influence in the garden. Period.

 

Very simple rule of any storytelling or Literature. If there is a connection between A an B the storyteller or author is obligated to make that association known!

 

It is not for the listening or reading audience to make that connection. It is the job of the author.

 

There are an unknown number of authors responsible for the bible....NOT ONE has inferred , written, hinted, or even supposed anything associating Satan in any way with the garden of Eden.

 

I really don't see how this could be any clearer.

 

Quit bringing the Bible, the Word of God down to your standards of how it should be written. The fact is the "serpent of old" is the serpent in Genesis and Satan the devil is that as well, in that he used the serpent.

[Kuroikaze]

 

 

2.) Isaiah 14:12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

 

 

which version of the bible are you gettting this quote from? in some translations "O Lucifer" does not even appear, It is absent from the NIV for instance. so perhaps this word does not even apear in all of the hebrew manuscripts...thats a posiblity anyway.

 

In any case Lucifer literally means "Day Star" in hebrew, to tell the truth I'm not sure even where the idea that Satan was named Lucifer came from. Do you know? How do you know Satan is named Lucifer? I bet your pastor told you right? Where did he get it? Christian tradition? In fact I'd be willing to bet that the church tradition of calling satan Lucifer was bassed on this passage.

 

I don't think satan is called Lucifer in the book of daniel or in revelation for that matter. Get this through your head, this passege isn't about satan, the name Lucifer is not a reference to satan. The term Day star was likely a reference to the king of Babylon. The whole passage is isaiah predicting the fall of Babylon. The jews were in exile and were looking for hope that it would not be permanent, so Isaiah was just trying to give them hope.

 

 

The very idea that Isaiah could be talking about satan is absurd, because jews in his time did not believe in satan or in hell. Read verse 11 in the same passage to see Isaiah mention Sheol, which is a place that, according to ancient judaism, everyone went. It didn't matter if you were good or bad, you went to Sheol when you died. There couldn't be a satan in jewish theology because they hadn't even invented a home for him yet

[Vigile]

Quit bringing the Bible, the Word of God down to your standards of how it should be written. The fact is the "serpent of old" is the serpent in Genesis and Satan the devil is that as well, in that he used the serpent.

 

So the devil used the serpent, a creature who had no control over its body being used and God knowing this decided to curse this poor creature and all the generations that followed it to an existance of slithering on the ground? This is awfully stupid and awfully cruel don't you think? But then it fits the character of biblegod who also cursed Adam, a man who unknowingly ate from the tree of life after his wife tricked him, and then cursed all generations that followed.

 

Yes, I get it, your god is a mind-bogglingly stupid vindictive prick.

 

So when God cursed the snake that he slither on the earth, he really didn't mean it literally? I see.

 

No, that is quite literal and implied to be so. You see you thinking the snake is in fact Satan is wrong. Satan is Lucifer, a fallen angel from heaven.

[thunderbolt]

2.) Isaiah 14:12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

Lucifer is Satan. You can see that if you draw a parallel between Isaiah 14:12 and Revelation 12:9.

Only YOU can see that.

 

Let's look at the Hebrew word “heylel”

 

It is used only once in the Bible, in Isaiah 14:12. That does not give us any further insight. But “Heylel” is derived from the primitive root word “halal” It is this word that gives us understanding of what "Heylel" really means. I might add here that this is also the only way that Jerome and the English translators could come to an understanding of what “Heylel” means--by clearly understanding the meaning of the word that “Heylel” is derived from, since it is only used one single time.

“Halal” is used 165 times in the Old Testament and it is translated as follows in the

 

KJV:

117 times = Praise

14 times = Glory

10 times = Boast

8 times = Mad

3 times = Shine(d)

3 times = Foolish

2 times = Fools

2 times = Commended

2 times = Rage

1 time = Celebrate

1 time = Give

1 time = Marriage

1 time = Renowned

 

In other words, the Hebrew word DOES not mean Lucifer. It was simply Jerome’s word of choice when he interpreted the Hebrew when compiling the Latin Vulgate upon instructions from Pope Jerome.

 

I found this in 5 seconds flat, using a computer and a search engine. I thought you had concordances and all to STUDY the Bible? Please do some proper research before you suffer us with your dogma. So far you have not been able to eliminate a single problem, instead, you have only heaped up dozens more for yourself.

[Asimov]

So....why was the snake punished for being possessed by Satan?