Skankboy Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Hello Everyone! I don't start topics too often, but one of our new visitors "The Listener" has asked that I open a new thread to discuss this topic. One of the main arguments of christianity is the existence of an absolute morality. "This is always ok, that is always bad." But does this really exist? Certainly I have my own opinions on this, but I would be interested to hear what you all (x and ex-x alike) think about this. Thanking you all in advance, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 No, I don't believe ABSOLUTE morality exists - even Christians prove this by selectively deciding which LAWS they want to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I would like clarification on this before I answer. What is absolute morality and according to which Bible passages do Christians hold to this value? Please remember just because a preacher claims something it is not necessary true. Just look at the charlatan Benny Hinn and the millions he is deceiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 What is absolute morality and according to which Bible passages do Christians hold to this value? Good questions. I would say absolute morality refers to actions that are not considered justifiable for any reason. From the Bible, I would say the most popular set is the Ten Commandments. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is pretty clear cut for instance. At NO time is having an affair w/a married woman considered OK. That sound about right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 In the context of adultery then yes adultery is a sin. Always has been and always will be. Is this what you mean by absolute morality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Perhaps we are reaching an impasse of definitions here. How would you define morality or absolute morality, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 You haven't made clear what absolute morality is so how can I define it? Is absolute morality adhering to all of God's Will? Then Jesus is the one and only who did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Wow. I really never expected this much difficulty... Let's try a different tack... What do you base your morality on? The Bible (ie the will of god as you put it)? Does the moral code outlined there allow for execptions to it's rules? If it doesn't, it is absolute, meaning it is unconditional. If it allows for circumstances in which these codes do not have to be obeyed then it is conditional and not absolute. Is that better? I guess I'm having trouble see where the trouble is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 It's a bit of a grey area for a Christian because we are tainted by our own sin and we live in a fallen world. During the Old Testament times things were made clearer. However today we have guidelines in the Bible and the Holy Spirit and our conscience guides us. In todays context it is difficult to answer that question in a broad spectrum unless you define clearly which areas of morality you are interested in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Absolute morality is when there are no ifs, buts or maybes in the moral code. For instance, the statement "stealing is wrong" is an absolute moral, since it does not take into account any factors. It simply states that stealing is wrong. If it's a black or white answer, then it's an absolute... quite simple when you think about it, and it's the underlying message in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 In that case absolute morality is found in Jesus and we need to cloth ourselves in His righteousness because we as humans will *never* live up to the standards God wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 In that case absolute morality is found in Jesus and we need to cloth ourselves in His righteousness because we as humans will *never* live up to the standards God wants. Ahem... Jesus never used Black or White morals, so how can he be the standard of Absolute Morality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Did Jesus sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Did Jesus sin? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 In that case absolute morality is found in Jesus and we need to cloth ourselves in His righteousness because we as humans will *never* live up to the standards God wants. Then I am at a loss TL. A code of morality is not found in a personage. Certainly you could follow that person's example as a kind of moral guide, but that's not the same thing. Look again at crazy-tiger's post. What I'm looking for is the source of your moral code and whether or not you see it as conditional or absolute. Whether or not you believe you are capable of living up to it is irrelevant in this case. If we cannot come to a common ground on what we are even discussing, then I'm not sure what else to say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Your question is a philosophical one and so it can be applied to anything to discredit it. Absolute morality, as you put it, was in the Torah as God's direct commands. Did anyone keep it? No. God resolved the problem of sin for us and set an example. Jesus is out absolute morality. PS: Tiger, what sin did Jesus commit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Your question is a philosophical one and so it can be applied to anything to discredit it. Absolute morality, as you put it, was in the Torah as God's direct commands. Did anyone keep it? No. God resolved the problem of sin for us and set an example. Jesus is out absolute morality. PS: Tiger, what sin did Jesus commit? Apart from being disrespectful of his mother, the use of violence, lying, working on the Sabbath and being the cause of theft you mean? Oh, and I say again... Absolute Morality is when the morals are Black or White, simple yes or no answers. Is stealing wrong? In an Absolute Morality, it is either yes or no. The question is, does Absolute Morality exist? Or is it all dependant on the circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Apart from being disrespectful of his mother, the use of violence, lying, working on the Sabbath and being the cause of theft you mean? Care to provide some refernces to lying, using violence and being the cause of theft? he was not disrespectful to his mother and I think the Son of God can work on the sabbath if he wishes. He explains it straight away anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Apart from being disrespectful of his mother, the use of violence, lying, working on the Sabbath and being the cause of theft you mean? Care to provide some refernces to lying, using violence and being the cause of theft? he was not disrespectful to his mother and I think the Son of God can work on the sabbath if he wishes. He explains it straight away anyway. He was asked if he taught anything in secret... despite the fact that his teachings were in parables so that they would be kept secret, he said no. That was a lie. The moneychangers in the temple was a wonderful example of violence, don't you think? Telling his disciples to go into the town and bring him a horse is being the cause of theft. God stated that the Messiah would keep ALL his laws, including keeping the Sabbath. By working on the Sabbath, Jesus showed that he wasn't the Messiah. Either way, it was a sin. Back on topic though... you have been educated on what Absolute Morals are, so now you can answer the question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Hang on, did the disciples tell the owner of the donkey why they were taking it and did the owner not refuse to let the donkey go? How is this theft? Where did Jesus say he never taught in secret and what makes a parable secret when he has taught it openly? Where in the OT is the messiah said to keep ALL of God's law? How does it make sense if a new covenant is being established? Clearing out robbers & thiefs from a temple is righteous anger not violence. Did a single man get hurt? Answer these please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 One of the main arguments of christianity is the existence of an absolute morality. "This is always ok, that is always bad." But does this really exist? Well of course absolute morality exists! When God commands you "do not kill" you better not kill!! Oops, except when he commands you to stone disobedient children. Er, and blasphemers. And, ummm, homosexuals. And, er, those you hear curse. And uh, those who work on the sabbath. And, those who..... ugh <sigh> never mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Please remember just because a preacher claims something it is not necessary true. Just look at the charlatan Benny Hinn and the millions he is deceiving. There's at least two things we can agree upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Hang on, did the disciples tell the owner of the donkey why they were taking it and did the owner not refuse to let the donkey go? How is this theft? Where did Jesus say he never taught in secret and what makes a parable secret when he has taught it openly? Where in the OT is the messiah said to keep ALL of God's law? How does it make sense if a new covenant is being established? I can't be arsed looking for the information you, as a Christian, should already know. If you want those answered, then find out for yourself. Clearing out robbers & thiefs from a temple is righteous anger not violence. Did a single man get hurt?13It was time for the annual Passover celebration, and Jesus went to Jerusalem. 14In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; and he saw money changers behind their counters. 15Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and oxen, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables. 16Then, going over to the people who sold doves, he told them, "Get these things out of here. Don't turn my Father's house into a marketplace!" And I've answered that because someone preached it at me this morning... so it was very fresh in my mind. Answer these please. Find them yourself... Am I here simply to do your legwork? Oh, and don't forget to answer the Absolute Morality question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 How old are you crazy-tiger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Please remember just because a preacher claims something it is not necessary true. Just look at the charlatan Benny Hinn and the millions he is deceiving. Hooboy. Ain't that the truth. Not to mention James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Chuck Swindoll, Chuck Smith, Bill Bright, Charles Stanley, Chuck Colson, Robert Schuller, Jack Van Impe, Jack Hayford, Tim La Haye, James Kennedy, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, and Billy Graham. Charlatans all. Trying to get the whole world to buy off on their superstitious nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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