Sunday School Promoting Female Ignorance

[Lucy]

Many years ago, my friend invited me to her church and I got to sit through some indoctrination which I would call an attempt to promote female submissiveness through intentional ignorance.

 

The main sermon that day was the preacher claiming he had seen the recent tornado in the sky so instead of hiding in a safe place, he made his family stand outside and pray for it to go away. Then it went away.  Praise Jesus! (As a side note, an atheist I knew also saw a tornado coming and he made his family take shelter. Their house was destroyed but they all lived. Praise Jesus? Or did God smite their house for disbelief?)

 

Anyway we went to Sunday school after the sermon and were divided by gender and age groups. I hadn't been to this church before. But there was a girl there who was partway through a semester in college. They asked her if she's dropped out of college yet. She was berated for quite a long while about how she shouldn't go to college. The Sunday school "teacher" was very angry with the whole idea of a woman going to college at all. There is no point in a woman's education because men are supposed to provide. Also, if she becomes educated then she might not be able to get married because it will lower the amount of men available that could possibly marry her. I couldn't tell what this girl's personal belief was, but she seemed rather upset but still determined to go to college. They were also using Bible quotes to argue with her about God's wisdom vs worldly wisdom.

 

Their thinking was like this. Men are the head of the women. Therefore a woman must marry a man who is at her level of education or higher. A woman must never be "better" than her man in some way, particularly education. If a woman graduates college, she is not permitted to marry a man who only graduated high school because she would have something that ranks her higher than the man. Each level up in college would make her potential pool of male suitors go down. If you get a bachelors, you must marry a man with a masters. If you get a masters, you must marry a man with a PhD. But a man with a PhD is still free to marry a girl with a high school diploma only, so if you're a girl with a masters you still have to compete with girls who have barely any education at all. So you should intentionally be ignorant so that you don't have to worry about being smarter than some man that might come along and want to marry you.

 

My friend never went to college. I did see a few of her congregation in college though. They were there only to take art classes and not get a degree.

 

I don't see how people can believe in a religion that is promoting female ignorance. I see a lot of girls around here who seem proud of being uneducated.

[Thurisaz]

I read stuff like this and want to shrug and go "well what else is new?", then I want to puke because I realize I shouldn't be so fucking apathetic about it...

[Guest Furball]

 

 

The main sermon that day was the preacher claiming he had seen the recent tornado in the sky so instead of hiding in a safe place, he made his family stand outside and pray for it to go away. Then it went away.  Praise Jesus! 

 

 

No way, either it's fake or a coincidence. 

[Sheerbliss]

The professional men I know are married to professional (or a least college-educated) women. There's nothing wrong with having only a high school diploma, but it's not going to keep a great big pool of potential mates open--just the pool of high-school educated men with no degree. Wendy the waitress ain't competing with Danielle the director.

 

And, this not being 1962 anymore, every woman needs an occupation. The days of 40-year employment at a company and lifelong marriage being norm are long over.

[SnarkyAntiTheist]

Sounds a lot like a couple of the churches I attended in my lifetime. Makes me ill just thinking about it.

 

As an aside... I couldn't imagine being married to a person who wasn't at a similar educational and intellectual level. My husband and I discuss and even spar on various topics all the time. It's part of who we are as a couple. I couldn't imagine being someone's yes-woman. Fuck that bullshit.

[Thurisaz]

Let alone... what man would want a "Yes-Woman™" as his life partner? Well okay humans are diverse in their preferences so I'm sure some like that... but I just can't wrap my mind around it. Seems to me that at that point it'd be the more rational choice to just get a RealDoll or such. Probably also cheaper in the long run.

[Wertbag]

I think the main problem is that being educated is not the same as being intelligent and it certainly doesn't mean you have a wide range of knowledge.  You can have a person who is very intelligent who hasn't been to university, or someone who has plenty of bits of paper framed in his bedroom but lacks common sense and worldly knowledge.

My wife has a double degree and is a chartered accountant, so on paper she is way more qualified than me, however on a purely intellectual level we are very similar and I agree with Snarky that a partner who matches you is important.

[Lilith666]

oh gawd. I don't know why the church needs to control everything--yes, everything--about people's lives. You said this was many years ago; I think the number of right-wingers who still believe today that women should not be educated are very few in number. The title scared me: I thought this was something you had heard recently. Anyway, Catholics I know are much more relaxed about following the rules than Protestants. The latter must have their religion adherence down perfectly. They can't watch movies or read books with too much swearing, violence or sex in them (but Passion of the Christ with its demons and vicious execution is fine). They mustn't use naughty language. My father thinks that "goshdang" is profanity. They must think about Jesus constantly, every day because he died and all that rubbish. Even though according to him, there is no way that they could possibly pay him back for this thing he claims to have done, which makes it all pointless. I tried to discuss the pros and cons of the death penalty with my dad, who of course had to bring biblegod's opinion into the conversation. Religion is an absolute obsession with them.

[Lucy]

 

The main sermon that day was the preacher claiming he had seen the recent tornado in the sky so instead of hiding in a safe place, he made his family stand outside and pray for it to go away. Then it went away.  Praise Jesus! 

 

No way, either it's fake or a coincidence. 

 

He was probably embellishing it. Lots of people here give god credit for the random paths of the tornadoes. I don't like people claiming god protected them because it implies the people who were severely injured or lost all their possessions were somehow unworthy of His divine mercy.

 

 

You said this was many years ago; I think the number of right-wingers who still believe today that women should not be educated are very few in number.

 

It was in the 90s. I'm really not sure what that church is teaching now. But I have a feeling they haven't changed a great deal. 

[Fweethawt]

In order to make up for what the church did to that girl, every male member of the congregation should have to give her a pearl necklace.

[Sheerbliss]

 

 

 

 

You said this was many years ago; I think the number of right-wingers who still believe today that women should not be educated are very few in number.

 

It was in the 90s. I'm really not sure what that church is teaching now. But I have a feeling they haven't changed a great deal. 

 

They're nuts if they still preach that. Even if a woman wanted to get married and start a family right out of high school with a nice young professional (cough, cough), there might not even be any such men at her church.

 

Part of the reason for the message, too, might be to compel her to stay with her husband even if she wants a divorce. A bit like Mormonism: by the time you figure out what a load of shit it is, you're saddled with half a dozen kids and little experience at a real job. That is, if you're able to think about epistemology, science or history while you're taking care of a bunch of little kids and running a household on a shoestring.

[Ellinas]

I think the main problem is that being educated is not the same as being intelligent and it certainly doesn't mean you have a wide range of knowledge.  You can have a person who is very intelligent who hasn't been to university, or someone who has plenty of bits of paper framed in his bedroom but lacks common sense and worldly knowledge.

My wife has a double degree and is a chartered accountant, so on paper she is way more qualified than me, however on a purely intellectual level we are very similar and I agree with Snarky that a partner who matches you is important.

 

Agreed.

 

My wife and I have very different educational backgrounds; I've got the academic qualifications, she a more practical, vocational background and no degree.  I usually end up writing any letters or e-mails we send simply because I'm less likely to make a spelling mistake.  But she has a proven and metaphorically bruising history of holding her own in arguments with me, and is more than capable of thinking for herself  When we married she held down a job in the same pay bracket as mine and was doing work arguably more challenging than mine.  In the end, a qualification is just a piece of paper.

 

The idea that any organization would seek to forbid education, however, is utterly offensive.  What way you go, what qualifications you get. is not the issue. That you are allowed to go the way that is right for you and do that for which you are suited is the important point - be it a qualification in brick laying or a PhD in astro-physics.  As ever, however, religion demands control - and presumably the uneducated and financially dependent are seen as less of a risk to those at the top.

[GoldenWolf]

I've heard stuff like this. Once my parents were reading out of a devotional book and it was talking about how men are supposed to provide and without a man in your life you were practically useless - well it was implied. Then it went on about how the women are the weaker sex, and this book was written by a woman. I argued that it was sexist, but my parents disagreed, including my mother. 

All I've gotten from Christianity and women is just: women should keep their legs shut unless they want to pop out a baby. But she has to be married and a virgin, if not a born-again virgin (which is not how virginity works, besides, virginity is just a concept), otherwise she's filthy. Also she can't be independent, she needs to depend on a man to able to function.

It's stupidity like this that made me give up on religion.

[gall]

Many years ago, my friend invited me to her church and I got to sit through some indoctrination which I would call an attempt to promote female submissiveness through intentional ignorance.

 

The main sermon that day was the preacher claiming he had seen the recent tornado in the sky so instead of hiding in a safe place, he made his family stand outside and pray for it to go away. Then it went away.  Praise Jesus! (As a side note, an atheist I knew also saw a tornado coming and he made his family take shelter. Their house was destroyed but they all lived. Praise Jesus? Or did God smite their house for disbelief?)

 

Anyway we went to Sunday school after the sermon and were divided by gender and age groups. I hadn't been to this church before. But there was a girl there who was partway through a semester in college. They asked her if she's dropped out of college yet. She was berated for quite a long while about how she shouldn't go to college. The Sunday school "teacher" was very angry with the whole idea of a woman going to college at all. There is no point in a woman's education because men are supposed to provide. Also, if she becomes educated then she might not be able to get married because it will lower the amount of men available that could possibly marry her. I couldn't tell what this girl's personal belief was, but she seemed rather upset but still determined to go to college. They were also using Bible quotes to argue with her about God's wisdom vs worldly wisdom.

 

Their thinking was like this. Men are the head of the women. Therefore a woman must marry a man who is at her level of education or higher. A woman must never be "better" than her man in some way, particularly education. If a woman graduates college, she is not permitted to marry a man who only graduated high school because she would have something that ranks her higher than the man. Each level up in college would make her potential pool of male suitors go down. If you get a bachelors, you must marry a man with a masters. If you get a masters, you must marry a man with a PhD. But a man with a PhD is still free to marry a girl with a high school diploma only, so if you're a girl with a masters you still have to compete with girls who have barely any education at all. So you should intentionally be ignorant so that you don't have to worry about being smarter than some man that might come along and want to marry you.

 

My friend never went to college. I did see a few of her congregation in college though. They were there only to take art classes and not get a degree.

 

I don't see how people can believe in a religion that is promoting female ignorance. I see a lot of girls around here who seem proud of being uneducated.

 

When you say around here where are you referring to?

 

It is a pretty common tactic. It is easier to control an uneducated mind. Why would men that head up the church want a bunch of smart females always hanging around mucking in stuff. Sad I know but most people that desire control find a way to get it from someone unless someone else stops them. I have never met a preacher or a teacher of religion that in some fashion did not desire control over others. They act like it is serving god or being dutiful to your faith but that is a load of shit frankly. Systems of control are all around us.

 

All people should be educated. I know it may sound crazy but even if they don't want to be. The larger the population is that is highly educated the less chance that tyranny has to grow, fester, and fuck us all over. It is a never ending struggle that only knowledge and experience tempered into wisdom can hope to defeat.

 

If I was a PHd (and I hope to be one day) I would want a woman of similar stature as a mate. As it stands right now my wife and I are at around the same level of education just in different fields. We both plan on advancing further and I love that she wants to as well. I like equals not servants.

[Lucy]

When you say around here where are you referring to?

 

I am referring to the southern Illinois and western Kentucky area. Not everyone here is like this.

 

 

I think the main problem is that being educated is not the same as being intelligent and it certainly doesn't mean you have a wide range of knowledge.  You can have a person who is very intelligent who hasn't been to university, or someone who has plenty of bits of paper framed in his bedroom but lacks common sense and worldly knowledge.

My wife has a double degree and is a chartered accountant, so on paper she is way more qualified than me, however on a purely intellectual level we are very similar and I agree with Snarky that a partner who matches you is important.

 

 

I agree on this. More education doesn't necessarily equate to more intelligence, success, or income. Also, education, intelligence, and income levels don't necessarily determine who is going to be "head of the house" at home in your own family dynamics. The idea of this church was that a woman should try to not outrank or equal her man in ANY form. And women should avoid education because it risks becoming better than the menfolk in some way.

 

--

 

I think this stood out to me because it was the first time in my entire life I'd ever heard someone telling young people not to get educated. It stunned me really. Badgering a young girl for just going to college. You would think she was up to some criminal activities the way they were accosting her.

[Guest Furball]

I've heard stuff like this. Once my parents were reading out of a devotional book and it was talking about how men are supposed to provide and without a man in your life you were practically useless - well it was implied. Then it went on about how the women are the weaker sex, and this book was written by a woman. I argued that it was sexist, but my parents disagreed, including my mother. 

 

All I've gotten from Christianity and women is just: women should keep their legs shut unless they want to pop out a baby. But she has to be married and a virgin, if not a born-again virgin (which is not how virginity works, besides, virginity is just a concept), otherwise she's filthy. Also she can't be independent, she needs to depend on a man to able to function.

 

It's stupidity like this that made me give up on religion.

I actually find that women are the stronger sex and men the weaker.

[Lilith666]

Why is that, CeilingCat?

[Bhim]

The idea that any organization would seek to forbid education, however, is utterly offensive.  What way you go, what qualifications you get. is not the issue. That you are allowed to go the way that is right for you and do that for which you are suited is the important point - be it a qualification in brick laying or a PhD in astro-physics.  As ever, however, religion demands control - and presumably the uneducated and financially dependent are seen as less of a risk to those at the top.

Heh, I'm always happy to see that astrophysics PhDs are considered the default "smart guys."  Let's see how long we can keep people believing that one!

 

Strangely though, the denigration of formal education is not representative of my experience as an evangelical.  Let me be clear: don't look to me for a defense of evangelical Christianity.  However, I do believe in knowing one's enemy.  The caricature of a willfully ignorant, knowledge-eschewing is a popular image (and I do know people like this), it was not typical of the sorts of evangelicals I interacted with.  In college I attended a Reformed Baptist church.  Almost every pastor held a master's or doctoral degree from a theological seminary, and the church ran its own undergraduate program in theological education.  Now, we can go back and forth about whether theological education is a "real" academic subject or mere sophistry.  Indeed, that would be reminiscent of my days in grad school when we physicists would bash English majors.  But this was not the sort of crowd which would openly denounce education.  If my fellow evangelicals harbored a fear of knowledge, it was at such a deep, subconscious level that even they weren't aware of it.  Yes, these people were creationists who rejected a major finding of modern science.  But we have to distinguish between fearing/hating knowledge, and simply being wrong about something.

 

In grad school I attended a megachurch.  This church was populated by average Americans, and the leadership consisted of rednecks (no offense if you're reading this, RP).  However, I did find a crowd of like-minded intellectuals who were highly educated in literature, theology, or the sciences.  Most of us were PhD students.  All of us believed in female submission.  But here's where it gets interesting: all of my friends' wives had bachelor's degrees in a science or engineering field, and one person's wife was pursuing a PhD, despite having no intention of holding a job after graduation!  This person started her graduate work after getting married, meaning she was not simply completing a program for the sake of obtaining some return on her sunk cost.  I highlight this because it demonstrates a value of education for its own sake.  The husband in this marriage seemed to believe that even though his wife should stay home and attend to domestic duties, there is still great value in her spending six years of her life achieving a terminal degree in a technical field, simply so that she will be more educated and (presumably) more enlightened.

 

I don't know how prevalent this attitude is among evangelicals.  I'm sure that my experience is not representative of all of Christendom.  Admittedly I'm something of an asshole, and I've always chosen to only be friends with people of an intellectual bent, so it's entirely possible that I simply ignored the morons during my six years as an evangelical Christian.  But it is important not to underestimate all evangelicals by falsely equating their belief in female submission with a belief in female ignorance.  While there are churches that do explicitly promote ignorance (as in Lucy's example), I'd wager that many more are breeding generations of well-educated people who believe in the evils of evangelical Christianity.

[Ellinas]

You may be right. 

 

Personally, I've come across some who think education is, of itself, pointless and evil as detracting from spiritual life; others who believe that education only has value in training the mind to be able to analyze scripture and frame arguments in terms that support orthodoxy.  Many seem to fear education as potentially leading to a rejection of the spiritual.

 

Those that do apparently value education seem to maintain a very tight rein on their families - which, itself suggests fear.

[Guest Furball]

Why is that, CeilingCat?

Sorry, i just saw your question. Over the course of my life i find women to be more deep thinkers, more in touch with themselves, more compassionate and understanding, smarter, and over all have the ability to deal with life from a stronger view point. I hope this helps. -Peace

[Sheerbliss]

I'm curious how that worked out for the PhDs who stayed home after the kids were in school. 

 

A few years ago, jezebel.com ran an article on how "opting out" turned out to be a bad idea ten years on for some women:

 

http://jezebel.com/quitting-your-job-to-be-a-full-time-mom-is-probably-a-b-1054423380

 

My brother was upset when his wife wanted to go back to work--and she didn't have any college degree. She was just bored after the kids were in school. Later on, my brother developed Addison's disease and had a back surgery that didn't go so well--and was self employed and on his wife's employer's health insurance. Her working was a good thing.

 

To take another example, if my mom had taken a part-time job when I was in school, even a low-wage one, and socked away the money in a savings account, my parents would have had a large nest egg in their old age instead of relying on credit cards. 

 

Getting back to conservative churches discouraging women working and/or being educated, though, I think it's for the same reason that they used to tell unhappily married couples to have a baby to "strengthen the marriage": it makes it harder to end a marriage that one or both parties want to end. 

[Bhim]

You may be right. 

 

Personally, I've come across some who think education is, of itself, pointless and evil as detracting from spiritual life; others who believe that education only has value in training the mind to be able to analyze scripture and frame arguments in terms that support orthodoxy.  Many seem to fear education as potentially leading to a rejection of the spiritual.

 

Those that do apparently value education seem to maintain a very tight rein on their families - which, itself suggests fear.

 

Good points.  I suppose at some level, most people view education as a means to an end rather than intrinsically valuable.  Whether that end is a job or simply the ability to be a responsible citizen, education is usually valuable because it enhances our lives in some way or another.  Like you say, those who value education still put bounds on their families.  Even my intellectual friends from my evangelical days would keep their wives and kids from forming close friendships with non-Christians (note, the wives were fully on board with this, and were not coerced).  On the one hand, this is clearly indicative of a fear of new ideas and perspectives.  But on the other hand, I can't see myself behaving differently.  If I had a kid, I would not let him be friends with an evangelical or attend a church.  And I'd feel similarly uneasy if my wife went to a church; fortunately she has about as much respect for Jesus as I do, i.e. none, and this remains an unlikely scenario.

 

Perhaps this should be framed in terms of consequences.  While there is value to education beyond employment, the fact is that everyone needs a job in order to put food on the table and avoid death by starvation.  Education greatly improves one's employment prospects.  The evangelical argument in Lucy's OP was that while men can marry down on the academic ladder, women cannot.  However, it is also true that people prefer marrying like-minded individuals.  A man with a PhD might not mind marrying a woman with a bachelor's degree, but I doubt he would marry one who never went to college.  That's speculation on my part, but as a member of the PhD-holding crowd I don't think I would do something like this.  If I'm at all representative of the larger population, then it follows that preventing an evangelical woman from going to college will lower both her employment prospects and her ability to be married off to some rich guy.  Seems like a bad idea even in the evangelical paradigm.

[Bhim]

I'm curious how that worked out for the PhDs who stayed home after the kids were in school.

 

A few years ago, jezebel.com ran an article on how "opting out" turned out to be a bad idea ten years on for some women:

 

http://jezebel.com/quitting-your-job-to-be-a-full-time-mom-is-probably-a-b-1054423380

 

My brother was upset when his wife wanted to go back to work--and she didn't have any college degree. She was just bored after the kids were in school. Later on, my brother developed Addison's disease and had a back surgery that didn't go so well--and was self employed and on his wife's employer's health insurance. Her working was a good thing.

 

To take another example, if my mom had taken a part-time job when I was in school, even a low-wage one, and socked away the money in a savings account, my parents would have had a large nest egg in their old age instead of relying on credit cards.

 

Getting back to conservative churches discouraging women working and/or being educated, though, I think it's for the same reason that they used to tell unhappily married couples to have a baby to "strengthen the marriage": it makes it harder to end a marriage that one or both parties want to end.

Wish I could tell you how it worked out for the PhD student. I of course left that group some time ago; I know she graduated but I'm not sure if there are any kids. I do, however, have friends from that group who had BS degrees in science or engineering and stayed home with the kids. Even several years in, they had no regrets.

 

Regarding how spouses earn money...this can get dicey. From a purely economic standpoint it makes sense for both to work. But then, it makes economic sense to not have kids. Having a kid basically means popping out something which will cost you time and money, and for which you are liable for the next 18 years. Neglecting oopsie babies, people have kids to get some sort of fulfillment out of their lives. As a non-parent I can't really speak to this, but in any discussion about kids the personal fulfillment must be factored into any cost/benefit analysis. I read the Jezebel article, and while it's very interesting it does seem to focus heavily on the finances. My mother, for example, didn't work after having kids. She's perfectly happy with this decision, but I have to say that years later I am too. Having one parent* was something that I continue to appreciate. So it's unfortunate that this discussion is usually framed in terms of evangelical Christians vs. godless "liberals" (FYI my family is non-Christian and theist).

 

When there are no kids it definitely makes sense for both people to work. My wife just started a job a few weeks ago, and finds it far preferable to sitting around at home all day. The extra money is certainly helpful too. We've talked about what to do if any kids come our way, and she would definitely quit to stay home with them. But I don't feel I'm in any position to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do, insofar as others' decisions don't affect me.

 

Anyway this is a very interesting and important topic, but probably a digression. Apologies for bloviating.

 

*EDIT: Just realized a most unfortunate typo. This was supposed to read "having one parent at home"

[Lucy]

 

A man with a PhD might not mind marrying a woman with a bachelor's degree, but I doubt he would marry one who never went to college.  That's speculation on my part, but as a member of the PhD-holding crowd I don't think I would do something like this. 

 

I know a few men with PhDs who are happily married to women who only have at most a high school diploma. Most of these women are not only lacking a formal education, but they are also rather dumb in general. I think these sorts of men see ignorance/stupidity as a feminine trait and somehow find it attractive. Perhaps it's some bit of narcissism in that they enjoy the idea of someone fawning over how intelligent they are constantly. I would never want to marry someone who I saw as far less intelligent than myself. I think that would hold true even if I were a man. The conversations would be too dull.

[Bhim]

 

 

A man with a PhD might not mind marrying a woman with a bachelor's degree, but I doubt he would marry one who never went to college. That's speculation on my part, but as a member of the PhD-holding crowd I don't think I would do something like this.

I know a few men with PhDs who are happily married to women who only have at most a high school diploma. Most of these women are not only lacking a formal education, but they are also rather dumb in general. I think these sorts of men see ignorance/stupidity as a feminine trait and somehow find it attractive. Perhaps it's some bit of narcissism in that they enjoy the idea of someone fawning over how intelligent they are constantly. I would never want to marry someone who I saw as far less intelligent than myself. I think that would hold true even if I were a man. The conversations would be too dull.

Well, there goes my theory. Looks like the evangelicals from that church knew exactly what they were doing...