Simple-minded Question For Id Theorists

[aynalhub]

Thought I'd take advantage of this community I cherish so much to expose an idea I'm playing with to the like-minded.

 

I realize the idea of intelligent design is based on the interworking of parts, and the uselessness of particular parts outside of the whole system. I have read and thought of many logical arguments to the contrary, but an idea hit me which I am curious to explore...

 

If there was a designer capable of interweaving millions of species and their systems into the earth's environment, couldn't he just make a creature whole cloth, and avoid the fragility of parts? Don't parts imply, per se, that the biological sphere has progressed from a microcosm to the world of the largest animals by building upon itself?

 

That's what gets me...My body is made up of cells the size of very small organisms, and is populated by bacteria, who, in all honesty, rule this planet still...again, wouldn't a creator with the capacity to make this present system, if his purposes were other than the beings themselves, simply create the agents of his plan as a unified, partless whole of some sort?

 

If any of you could help me flush this out, I would love that.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying, and I don't mean that you wrote it bad or anything, I'm just a bit tired and my head is spinning from other things I'm working on. So could you just elaborate a little more? Maybe it would give some light to it.

[Samurai Tailor]

I find that many symbiotic relationships pose a prima facie problem for ID, though for whatever reason I have yet to discuss it with an ID proponent.

 

Animal cells primarily metabolize glucose for energy, yet mammal digestive tracts are only moderately efficient at absorbing simple sugars, and are almost completely unable to break down starches, fiber and oligosaccharides. Thus, the mammal colon is covered with anaerobic bacteria, numbering greater than the number of cells in the rest of the body, that increase the carbohydrate absorption capacity by 30% or more.

 

Of course, the classic instance is Margulis's endosymbiotic theory. Were it not for the fortuitous capture/invasion of the ancestors of mitochondria and chloroplasts by an ancient phagocyte, the Earth may not have ever hosted multi-cellular life.

[aynalhub]

Samurai caught on right away.

 

What i'm saying is, if god has virtually unlimited capacity, why does his creation of man require so many little parts, and why are microorganisms necessary? It makes perfect sense if life is actually a process of physical law, that complex organisms are the result of large structures of relatively stable smaller systems, but i don't think the authors of the bible even knew about the little buggers that own this planet.

 

Long story short, why are we parts, instead of one big, less fragile piece?

 

Like, if I was god, i'd just make humans with skin that is one big piece, not lots of cells, and our bodies would be similarly simple. Instead, we are very complicated and made of countless pieces and dependent on the tiny things that allowed us to develop in the first place.

 

I guess if you're a Raelian this is fine, but if you believe god is omnipotent, why would he go through all the trouble of making parts, and not just make a self-sufficient whole?

 

And samurai, thanks for the tip, i'm gonna read up on Margulis. That's just the kind of stuff i'm looking for.

[Ouroboros]

I see what you're saying. Why not make life forms less complicated. Why all unnecessary parts and pieces that only makes it more fragile. It's truly a sign of bad design.

[thunderbolt]

I have heard it said that your analogy is something like this:

 

Looking at the human body, it’s clearly desgined from the ground up, having many parts not necessary. An intelligent designer would have designed it from the top down, thus getting to what I think you are saying.

 

Do I understand this correctly?

[aynalhub]

I have heard it said that your analogy is something like this:

 

Looking at the human body, it’s clearly desgined from the ground up, having many parts not necessary. An intelligent designer would have designed it from the top down, thus getting to what I think you are saying.

 

Do I understand this correctly?

 

Exactly. It is too late for me to be so succinct. Thank you.

 

And again, with Yahweh, we're not talking just intelligent, but almighty, you know? Maybe the Raelian "Elohim" hodge-podged a bunch of life-kits they got at a hobby store together with mediocre results...but not an all pervading god, surely...

[MQTA]

I have heard it said that your analogy is something like this:

 

Looking at the human body, it’s clearly desgined from the ground up, having many parts not necessary. An intelligent designer would have designed it from the top down, thus getting to what I think you are saying.

 

Do I understand this correctly?

 

Exactly. It is too late for me to be so succinct. Thank you.

 

And again, with Yahweh, we're not talking just intelligent, but almighty, you know? Maybe the Raelian "Elohim" hodge-podged a bunch of life-kits they got at a hobby store together with mediocre results...but not an all pervading god, surely...

 

I watched the Raelian videos on their site yesterday. I didn't realize Intelligent Design is what THEY're talking about. They apparently are the ones who are pushing for this and they call it Atheistic Intelligent Design.

 

The Intelligence they refer to is manipulating DNA and creating the animals and life as we know it here on this planet. No GOD at all. They were scientists mistaken as God, and to keep the humans from taking over and killing them off, they went along with the God story.

 

I downloaded their ebook and am reading it with a dropped jaw. The Bible, as they write (I'm up to page 80), really does read a WHOLE LOT different if you look at it from their perspective. It even MAKES SENSE!!!!

 

IF this is The Way we all came about... here on this planet... then it does ANSWER a whole shitload of questions asked! WE will find out the truth only when/if WE, as a people, are ready for it. They want us to build them an embassy on neutral ground near their ORIGINAL one in Jerusalem, and they hope by 2025.

 

If you have adobe I highly recommend downloading the ebook and reading it. The Bible looks so different to me now. All my early questions have been answered.

 

Not believing in Christianity, based on how it is today, how it evolved over the years, and all the stories... bullshit bullshit bullshit. But looking at our ancient humans knowledge, what we'd think if we saw these things happen and had no clue about them, what was said, and how it was taken by the humans... I can see it. And it's freaking me out! Could it be? Sounds more feasible than anything else!

 

This is one of the things I wondered about YEARS ago and of course simply dismissed because who really wants to think that? But if it's reality, I wanna know for sure.

 

The Internet is changing our lives... no more need to believe, we can now begin to understand.

 

The sites like Paul Tobin's Central Thesis and the Jovial Atheist show the errors of the Bible looking at it from the perspective of One God -- the writing don't match the tradition, no wonder we all battle semantics over it.

 

Elohim is definitely plural in Hebrew, and there's all those LET US and OUR images. It all makes sense from the perspective that Our Creators were no magic men, just scientists with more knowledge than we have today.

 

From 4004BC til, oh, 60 years ago, we made some progress in our growth. IN the last 60 years we leaped and bounded in ways nobody could ever even imagine a few hundred years ago.

 

Are we ready for The Truth? Will the Truth set us free or will it totally freak out more than half the planet and we'll destroy ourselves? They said they will only reveal themselves to all when we are ready for peace and harmony, and don't destroy ourselves first.

 

Maybe they've been guiding me the last 21 months to learn all I learned first, before springing this on me NOW. I surely would have rejected it, and ignored it, had I not spent DAYS absorbing what they were saying on halexandria.org .... that's the site that links everything together.

 

What a monkey wrench this is. WOW! I got a lot to think about now. Not sure whether to be amazing or scared shit. Gotta digest this and continue reading the ebook. It's AWESOME so far.

 

If it's true... WOW! Talk about blowing up irony meters!

 

 

I keep thinking of the Church of Reality's motto.. if it's REAL we'll believe it... going to be interesting watching this all unfold. I'm sure I heard about these people before, it just didn't click or hit me in the face until yesterday.

 

All we need is the clear evidence and proof...

 

The implications, if true, are mind blowing:

 

It would mean that: the bible is true, and LITERAL, it really is! It WAS "inspired by God". The perspective is human, the translation of Elohim to God makes it all clear. Where it says LORD, it's one of them they all knew and dealt with most of the time. Any Angel of the Lord is just one of the many raelian scientists that were here. They really did have what we consider WINGS! and the bible describes their jet packs, two on each limb. And there really IS A SATAN! He works for their government ever since the Job case.

 

Read the ebook (It's in .pdf) and see what you think. My brain is spinning.

 

So, the Bible IS the "word of God"... or rather, fed to us by the Elohim (they who come from the sky). Some of the writing is their actions, some of it is direct contact, and all from our young-human perspective.

 

What's wrong is how humans interpretted it, not so much the writers and people in the narratives, which of course, the errors are all our fuckups. The bad interpretation is our lack of understanding.

 

What's hard to swallow is it all makes sense if you see the big picture. YEARS ago I had a discussion with some people, we imagined what WE would do if we found a planet that had primative people, what they would think when they saw our ships and what we did, and how we'd treat them. When humor was injected... well.. it's possible. It's possible. It's freaking me out!

 

But if it's reality, it won't be revealed until more and more start to understand this angle. Wow!

 

I really gotta absorb this all and give it some serious consideration. The knee jerk is to scoff and think of our sci-fi movies... but look at all we're doing in the last 60 years. I think we're on the verge of something... I don't know... but it's really wild.

 

And nothing to fear, there is no almighty... just more advanced people. We ARE in THEIR image! If we're designed from DNA manipulation from their DNA. Wow.

 

Read the ebook.. and then come back to this thread.

[SkepticOfBible]

The Intelligence they refer to is manipulating DNA and creating the animals and life as we know it here on this planet. No GOD at all. They were scientists mistaken as God, and to keep the humans from taking over and killing them off, they went along with the God story.

 

I downloaded their ebook and am reading it with a dropped jaw. The Bible, as they write (I'm up to page 80), really does read a WHOLE LOT different if you look at it from their perspective. It even MAKES SENSE!!!!

 

IF this is The Way we all came about... here on this planet... then it does ANSWER a whole shitload of questions asked! WE will find out the truth only when/if WE, as a people, are ready for it. They want us to build them an embassy on neutral ground near their ORIGINAL one in Jerusalem, and they hope by 2025

........

....

 

This is one of the things I wondered about YEARS ago and of course simply dismissed because who really wants to think that? But if it's reality, I wanna know for sure.

......

 

All we need is the clear evidence and proof...

 

The implications, if true, are mind blowing:

 

 

You are joking right. I hope you don't buy that do you. This sort of thing makes sense in movie, which they even made with Gary Sinese.

 

There is no freaking proof of their claim. Please goto sites which debunk their claim.

 

This founder of Rael, is modern day Paul. He only claims he got this knowledge from the aliens, yet has no proof for claims.

 

Did you forget

 

EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF

 

Elohim is definitely plural in Hebrew, and there's all those LET US and OUR images

Obviously these Raelians are not expert in Hebrew(just like christians)

 

So lets goto one.

 

Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?

 

Christians point to the name of G-d used in this first verse of the Bible: Elokim. This word ends in "im," which is an indication of plurality. Obviously, there must be a plurality to G-d, right? Absolutely not! If the meaning of this word were to be plural, then the verbs would agree, also being in the plural. The word for "created" is "barah," in the singular.

 

Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (KJV)

 

The word for "god" used in this verse from Exodus is "elokim." How strange! Did the Almighty reconfigure Moses to be comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Did Moses become more than one person? Of course, not! According to some Christians, because a plural suffix is used, the G-dhead must be plural. Therefore, every time you find a word with a plural suffix, that word will be plural. So, there must have been a plurality in Moses, wasn’t there? The Lord is infinite and perfect. "Elokim" is simply a name that shows His very magnitude by using a plural form of the word.

 

I’m sure some people who read this essay know of the traditional Jewish toast, "L’Chaim!" To life! "Chaim" means life (singular), yet it uses a plural suffix. The word for "water" is "mayim," which uses a plural suffix. The word for "face" is "panim." Even the word for "heaven," "shamayim" used in the first verse of Genesis has the plural ending. Clearly, not every word in Hebrew that employs a plural suffix is actually a plurality. Just as it is not true that every word in English that ends in "s" is a plural word, not every word in Hebrew that ends with "im" is plural.

 

 

And may I remind that you right that after verse it says shows that God is singular

 

Gen 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

The "us" in Genesis 1:26 more appropriately would be referring to God's court of heavenly beings.

The Bible God surrounds himself with beings who praise him and do his bidding:

 

Psa 148:2

Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

 

Isa 6:1-3

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

 

Wake up the skeptic in you, before you fall into another dangerous cult.

[MQTA]

 

 

All we need is the clear evidence and proof...

The implications, if true, are mind blowing:

 

 

You are joking right. I hope you don't buy that do you. This sort of thing makes sense in movie, which they even made with Gary Sinese.

 

There is no freaking proof of their claim. Please goto sites which debunk their claim.

 

This founder of Rael, is modern day Paul. He only claims he got this knowledge from the aliens, yet has no proof.

 

Did you forget

 

EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF

 

Exactly. All we need is the clear evidence and proof.

 

IT's perfect that They won't reveal themselves until We are ready, and we won't be ready unless they reveal themselves. Perfect Catch 22.

 

However, if you read the Bible with the angle he suggests, it makes a whole lot more sense than how we're all going around reading it nowadays.

 

In any case, in this day and age, and given what's written in the ebook, there's no fear, there's no hell, there's no worries - like there are if you take the bible as the Christians tell us it should be read.

 

They explained about Jesus but I haven't seen any reference to Paul and Paulianity yet. But that just shows how the humans back then weren't so swift.. and people still aren't when they get taught the wrong way.

 

I'm only up to page 94, but so far, it makes a lot of sense... except .... If they found this planet with just water and clouds, then they'd have to be talking about a long long long time ago, before the dinosaurs... but most of their references start 25,000 years ago. So there's a little gap there.

 

So far that's the only thing I haven't seen covered.

 

It fits well with halexandria.org's Sumerian tales.

 

 

Do you have links to debunking sites? I tried to find some, couldn't. Only found mention about Rael in skepdic.com but they didn't really debunk them.

[SkepticOfBible]

Exactly. All we need is the clear evidence and proof.

 

IT's perfect that They won't reveal themselves until We are ready, and we won't be ready unless they reveal themselves. Perfect Catch 22.

 

 

And they choose to reveal to Mr Rael, but not others. So was Mr Rael ready?

 

Does he have access to any alien technology which shows his claims as true?That would certain give validity to his claims.

 

Look at what you are doing. Equate Aliens = God, and they are using the same trap that christianity uses.

 

However, if you read the Bible with the angle he suggests, it makes a whole lot more sense than how we're all going around reading it nowadays.

 

And I just exposed his bias towards to the whole "Elohim" thing. He is fraud, just like evangilical christian.

 

the bible becomes whatever he wants it to be.

 

And why just the bible. Why not other religious books?maybe the book of mormon or the quran?

 

You do know most of the ancient world wrote about God, because they feared the unknown.

[MQTA]

 

Elohim is definitely plural in Hebrew, and there's all those LET US and OUR images

Obviously these Raelians are not expert in Hebrew(just like christians)

 

So lets goto one.

 

Is the Trinity Found in the Torah?

 

Christians point to the name of G-d used in this first verse of the Bible: Elokim. This word ends in "im," which is an indication of plurality. Obviously, there must be a plurality to G-d, right? Absolutely not! If the meaning of this word were to be plural, then the verbs would agree, also being in the plural. The word for "created" is "barah," in the singular.

 

Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (KJV)

 

The word for "god" used in this verse from Exodus is "elokim." How strange! Did the Almighty reconfigure Moses to be comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Did Moses become more than one person? Of course, not! According to some Christians, because a plural suffix is used, the G-dhead must be plural. Therefore, every time you find a word with a plural suffix, that word will be plural. So, there must have been a plurality in Moses, wasn’t there? The Lord is infinite and perfect. "Elokim" is simply a name that shows His very magnitude by using a plural form of the word.

 

I’m sure some people who read this essay know of the traditional Jewish toast, "L’Chaim!" To life! "Chaim" means life (singular), yet it uses a plural suffix. The word for "water" is "mayim," which uses a plural suffix. The word for "face" is "panim." Even the word for "heaven," "shamayim" used in the first verse of Genesis has the plural ending. Clearly, not every word in Hebrew that employs a plural suffix is actually a plurality. Just as it is not true that every word in English that ends in "s" is a plural word, not every word in Hebrew that ends with "im" is plural.

 

 

And may I remind that you right that after verse it says shows that God is singular

 

Gen 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

The "us" in Genesis 1:26 more appropriately would be referring to God's court of heavenly beings.

The Bible God surrounds himself with beings who praise him and do his bidding:

 

Page 15 of the ebook talks about this.

 

 

Psa 148:2

Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

 

Isa 6:1-3

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

 

 

Page 43 says "that is a description of the creators dressed in their one piece space suits fitted with six small jet engines, two on their backs, two on their hands, and two at their feet, these ones for steering purposes"

 

 

 

 

Wake up the skeptic in you, before you fall into another dangerous cult.

 

I was never in a dangerous cult, always been independent.

 

Have you read any of this ebook they have on the site? Given that I read EVERY page of Paul Tobin's site, every page of the Jovial Atheist except for his book chapters at the bottom of his main page, every page of HAlexandria.org, every page of the Church of Reality.org, and always look at what the SAB says about all verses quoted, THIS makes sense. It fits with a lot of ponderings from the last 40 years.

 

I want to know how these things came about, how we fucked up in believing what people believe, based upon the bible, which makes no sense as written, as tought, as dissected. But THIS makes sense, it FITS, from what I've seen so far.

 

I'm up to page 95 now... only 300 more to go.

[MQTA]

Exactly. All we need is the clear evidence and proof.

 

IT's perfect that They won't reveal themselves until We are ready, and we won't be ready unless they reveal themselves. Perfect Catch 22.

 

 

And they choose to reveal to Mr Rael, but not others. So was Mr Rael ready?

 

It's explained in the ebook why him.

 

Does he have access to any alien technology which shows his claims as true?That would certain give validity to his claims.

 

Given the last 60 years of our sudden growth spurt on this planet, I'd say we have technology that 20, 200, 2000 years prior would be quite miraculous, unheard of and impossible.

 

They're saying we're ready to give up the Beliefs and Start to Understand.

 

 

Look at what you are doing. Equate Aliens = God, and they are using the same trap that christianity uses.

 

More like mistaking our Creators, which we called Elohim and mistook all of them as Gods or Angels of Gods. 15 or so years ago a friend of mine and I pondered how we'd be if we were to go to a planet and find primative man. The things they'd believe about us, the things we could do that would leave them, well, much like our ancestors were, in the same conditions.

 

 

 

And I just exposed his bias towards to the whole "Elohim" thing. He is fraud, just like evangilical christian.

 

the bible becomes whatever he wants it to be.

 

Just read the Bible on your own, and see how those men back then would see things.

 

They could only relay and relate to their level of comprehension. Given our scientific discoveries and strides in the last 60 years, it's not all that hard to imagine. HE didn't write the Bible, it's already written and we're all here because we realized the bullshit it is. --- bullshit because of all the wild and crazy things in it that don't make any logical or reasonable sense.

 

Paul Tobin says that if our Creator was not From Earth, then he HAS to be, in our language and perspective from this planet, an Extra-Terrestrail -- NOT from Earth.

 

I'm not reading this as if it's the first thing I've read in 46 years, I'm reading this with all my experiences and ponderings. I can't dismiss it. I see how things developed, this may give a greater understanding to WHY.

 

It doesn't negate all the skepticism and debunking the Bible, as it's written, it compliments it and shows an angle I saw, just never gave it much thought.

 

And now I am giving it thought... and until proof or new information or conflicting information is uncovered, it goes into the "interesting" pile, just like the big bang. I don't think there was ever a big bang to 'kick start' the UNIVERSE. I always had wild panspermia type ideas, and recently found out it was called panspermia. This would be more of an abstract, than chemical reaction.

 

We're playing with DNA now. If some day we clone healthy human beings, how far fetched would it then be if that is how we came to be on this planet, which was able to sustain life?

 

No Universal Creator, but we all could have started life on this planet as a lab experiment of another civilization, much like we have grown to, thus far. Of course they'd know more, they have a whole lot more experience.

 

 

And why just the bible. Why not other religious books?maybe the book of mormon or the quran?

 

You do know most of the ancient world wrote about God, because they feared the unknown.

 

ALL the major religions on the planet, all the Greek Mythology... all interpreted by our ignorant ancestors, as, well, how they have. Of course, as written, we don't see it, naturally, because it's from the human perspectives.

 

Did you watch the video on the pages? Download the ebook, and then you can rip it apart better.

 

 

I can't just dismiss it. Nothing much will change for me, I'm not going to run off and join a circus, but I sure would welcome meeting one of these Elohim guys in a ship. Then I'll believe... and can have nobody else believe me. That's fine. I just WANT to know >THE< truth, no matter WHAT it is.

[SkepticOfBible]

Psa 148:2

Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

 

Isa 6:1-3

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Page 43 says "that is a description of the creators dressed in their one piece space suits fitted with six small jet engines, two on their backs, two on their hands, and two at their feet, these ones for steering purposes"

 

This guy is doing exactly what the NT writers did.

 

He is pulling verses out of context and is twisting them to further his agenda.

 

I am seeing history being repeated here. check out these links, which demonstate that.

 

Book of Hebrew

Books Of Acts

 

If NT writers could do that, what makes you think Rael is not doing so.

 

He already made a mistake about the fact that Elohim is plural, which I have showed is a fraud claim.

 

Here are the links

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rael

 

http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000156.html

 

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r12.html (just because they christian, does not mean they lying. So please read this too)

 

You'll find other links in those 3.

 

There are thousand of people who claim to have seen Elvis. Do you believe those too?

[MQTA]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not going by his claims. I'm going by what I'm seeing, based on this new information and possibility. I won't dismiss it out of hand. Our history will speak for itself.

 

Take any part of the bible and read through it and consider what's more possible. An immaterial God who created the entire universe and every atom and subatom, or another civilization, kinda like ours, creating life with DNA manipulation?

 

1 Kings 6 I think it is... why would an immaterial God give us detailed instructions on how to build him a place to be while he's here on Earth?

 

Why would a coupla scientists who are spending time here do that?

 

The details may not be clear in Rael's writings, but just reading the Bible with that view. IT may not be the particular beings Rael is talking about, but it sure makes more sense.

 

Read halexandria.org, the Sumerians wrote from that point of view, too.

 

And it's matching what we're learning to do, ourselves, in the last 60 or so years. There's MORE to it than just saying bullshit.

 

And of course people have seen Elvis... those who think they look like him start to grow their hair like him and then start imitating how he spoke.

 

 

But I don't attack a person for what they say, I look to what they're saying and then check THAT out. Isn't that the ad hom deal? Gather all the facts and details you can, and THEN check out the facts and details, regardless who tells them?

 

 

I'm still not even sure we ever went to the Moon, but they seem to think we went to the Moon, and the sites who say we weren't there then go through the transcripts of the moon flights and say we saw aliens on the dark side of the moon. If we didn't go there, how'd we see aliens, and if we did go there, why are they saying we didn't?

 

There are no answers we can know For Sure even IF we saw them with our own eyes.

[SkepticOfBible]

It's explained in the ebook why him.

 

I would love to hear it.

 

Given the last 60 years of our sudden growth spurt on this planet, I'd say we have technology that 20, 200, 2000 years prior would be quite miraculous, unheard of and impossible

.

 

You don't have thank invisible aliens for that.

 

Most advances in various field of science has been a result of the 2 world war and Cold war. The military has been forefront in the field of research, and many of the invention of the military are used by us.

 

Please start watching Discovery Channel and National Geographic, where they will tell the facts not fictions.

 

Reading history will help too.

 

More like mistaking our Creators, which we called Elohim and mistook all of them as Gods or Angels of Gods.

Or most likely they were deluded just like today?

 

15 or so years ago a friend of mine and I pondered how we'd be if we were to go to a planet and find primative man. The things they'd believe about us, the things we could do that would leave them, well, much like our ancestors were, in the same conditions.

 

Gee now it seems you are talking like Star Tre's prime directive

 

And I just exposed his bias towards to the whole "Elohim" thing. He is fraud, just like evangilical christian.

 

the bible becomes whatever he wants it to be.

 

Just read the Bible on your own, and see how those men back then would see things.

 

Already explained above

 

 

They could only relay and relate to their level of comprehension. Given our scientific discoveries and strides in the last 60 years, it's not all that hard to imagine. HE didn't write the Bible, it's already written and we're all here because we realized the bullshit it is. --- bullshit because of all the wild and crazy things in it that don't make any logical or reasonable sense.

 

the NT writers didn't write the OT too, yet see the no of bullshit they have come with. History repeated.

 

Paul Tobin says that if our Creator was not From Earth, then he HAS to be, in our language and perspective from this planet, an Extra-Terrestrail -- NOT from Earth.

 

Please show me where he says that.

 

1 Kings 6 I think it is... why would an immaterial God give us detailed instructions on how to build him a place to be while he's here on Earth?

So, big deal. These bible also contains 36 verses on how to handle a mildew. Obviously the hebrew people were trying to figure out on how to please their god.

 

 

I'm still not even sure we ever went to the Moon, but they seem to think we went to the Moon, and the sites who say we weren't there then go through the transcripts of the moon flights and say we saw aliens on the dark side of the moon. If we didn't go there, how'd we see aliens, and if we did go there, why are they saying we didn't?

 

Where they heck did you get that from? Men did go on the moon.

 

But I don't attack a person for what they say, I look to what they're saying and then check THAT out. Isn't that the ad hom deal? Gather all the facts and details you can, and THEN check out the facts and details, regardless who tells them?

 

I saw what he had say and found a fraud on his part on my own. And he hasn't provided any proof for his claims. He is just like that Reverand Moon guy who thinks that Jesus met him.

 

Take any part of the bible and read through it and consider what's more possible

 

And now that sounds like Kent Hovind. He said Noad went on dragon to collect animals. With imagination and speculation anything is possible. But that's best reserved for movies not reality

[MQTA]

So you're just doing what the Christians who come here do and just dismiss everything by calling it bullshit without doing any research into it?

 

I'm doing research. You don't have to like it, nor do you have to give me a hard time for reading. I won't dismiss it without READING it first.

 

 

 

Before going any further, did you read the ebook, or no?

[SkepticOfBible]

So you're just doing what the Christians who come here do and just dismiss everything by calling it bullshit without doing any research into it?

 

 

On the contrary the Raelians are doing exactly what christian do. Make claims and providing no proof for it.

 

From their website

 

During a UFO encounter in 1973 he was dictated a series of messages, face to face, by one of these designers. The result is what lies within these pages - an astonishing revelation for mankind.

What was the mode of dictation?

 

if it was revelation from the aliens, and the aliens wanted to us to believe about the "truth", then why is it they have not provided one single alien relic that would prove their existance?That would convince a lot of people and greatly improve the credibility of Mr Rael.

 

I don't buy into this "secret code"/revelation thing. He is using the classic christian ploy

 

"Believe in my claim, even though I have no proof".

 

And please don't accuse me of not researching.

 

Rael made a claim that Elohim is definitely plural in Hebrew, and I showed you from a unbiased sourse that this is positively a fraudalent and non scholarly claim

 

Has Rael corrected himself on this fact, or is he still spreading lies like the way YEC do.

 

Before going any further, did you read the ebook, or no?

 

i would not be surprised if it answers some of the questions that is puzzling you

 

Anybody can come with fancy explanations to prove how the world came to be. heck even the Wachowski brothers(Matrix) came up with a plausable explanation about the world.

 

Check this out

 

God's Debris

 

Synopsis

 

Imagine that you meet a very old man who—you eventually realize—knows literally everything. Imagine that he explains for you the great mysteries of life—quantum physics, evolution, God, gravity, light, psychic phenomenon, and probability—in a way so simple, so novel, and so compelling that it all fits together and makes perfect sense. What does it feel like to suddenly understand everything? God's Debris isn’t the final answer to the Big Questions. But it might be the most compelling vision of reality you will ever read. The thought experiment is this: Try to figure out what’s wrong with the old man’s explanation of reality. Share the book with your smart friends then discuss it later while enjoying a beverage.

 

I am pretty sure Rael is using classic brainwashing technique just like the above book

 

Persuasion & Brainwashing Techniques Being Used On The Public Today

[MQTA]

Scott Adams? cool, thanks.

 

Well, I'm going to finish reading, I'm on pg 106 now.

[aynalhub]

1. Elohim is not necessarily a plural word, and is used in countless other contexts besides genesis in which it is without a doubt singular.

 

2. The Hebrew bible is a relatively new document. The stories from Sumeria are as much older than it as we are younger...think about that.

 

3. To go to a Raelian retreat, you have to be tested for STDs

 

4. The entire thing throws evolution and geology out the window

[SkepticOfBible]

Page 43 says "that is a description of the creators dressed in their one piece space suits fitted with six small jet engines, two on their backs, two on their hands, and two at their feet, these ones for steering purposes"

Since Rael is claiming that in that psalm verse he claimed that the angels were actually Elohim/Aliens. So suppose the same goes for the following.

 

2 Kings 19:35

And it came to pass that night, that theangel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand(185,000): and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

 

Mmmmmmmm, Aliens killing Humans. How wonderful? like Humans killng Humans was not enough.

 

Matt 16:27-28

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

 

Oh now I finally get, Captain Jesus is gonna return with his alien friends.

 

So are they gonna torture us for not believing in Rael and Jesus?

 

I went ahead and read various press releases about this group(including from their website)

 

Two years after that first volcanic encounter, the Elohim returned to Rael in 1975, but this time flew him back to its alien planet: a world of pink and blue squirrels where people fly about with the aid of specially powered belts. It was there that Rael met the Earths enlightened ones - Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha and Moses among them - all of them prophets sent by the aliens to guide humanity on the path of righteousness.

 

As for Jesus, they cloned him after the crucifixion which allowed him to come back (the resurrection) to deliver the Revelation before returning to be with the other prophets in Elohim land

 

http://www.rael.org/press/simchinese/pages/media_articles/150302.html ://http://www.rael.org/press/simchines...es/150302.html ://http://www.rael.org/press/simchines...es/150302.html ://http://www.rael.org/press/simchines...es/150302.html

 

Yeah right, christians have been trying for centuary to prove his existance, and somehow we have to believe that he and others were aliens.

 

And what is the evidence that he flew with the aliens and met all these so called "prophets"?

 

Are Reverand Moon and L. Ron Hubbard also prophets sent by these aliens too?

 

And what's this about Mohammed being enlightened? Mmmm, that explains why he went ahead and lead those war. It was idea given the aliens.

 

There is even a story in the quran where the angels of god killed all the enemy. mmm, so once again we have these aliens killing human.

 

I don't know about you, but somehow I am not interested meeting these aliens.

 

If I remember correctly these people had allegdly cloned a human, and they were supposed to show scientific proof for that within 10 days of the day they made that claim

 

Heck even Scientilogist. claim that something Similiar.

 

Xenu and Elohim are the same meme. The difference with conventional religion is that they have changed the idea God into Aliens.

 

I believe the Raelians obsession with cloning is that they think it leads to immortality

 

His goal for scientists to one day create "almost instant" adult clones, rather than babies, then transplant those clones with the person's memory and personality is not just science fiction, he insists. "

 

Google Group Discussion

 

Already I can see tons of ethical questions in case if the above was possible

 

In their view, since we were created as clones, it's our duty to create clones ourselves-- it's a sort of scientific reproductive urge. Also, abortion is perfectly fine (you can always clone later) and sex is, shall we say, highly encouraged.

 

http://www.gogomagazine.com/0227/coverstory.html

 

And finally the dogmas of the Raelians are exposed. It is our "duty" that we clone humans. I can see that in a few hundred years, Raelian going in the way of christianity

 

"Look at that symbol you have around your neck," he replies, pointing at my crucifix necklace. "They laughed at him once too."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=30224

 

 

I have seen other conmen use the same example to prove their assertion. I forgot what kind of fallacy this is

 

Rael also revealed that his next big venture would be the creation of a virtual sex machine which will allow computer users to have sex with each other online.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30224

 

Good luck for the lonely people. I can see the sort of people who flock to crackheads like him

 

they also request to make a embassy in Jerusalem and free from any type of radar surveillance.

Google Group Discussion

 

 

Yeah, like that's gonna happen. this guy is David Koresh in the making.

 

 

 

Son of Yahweh and Jesus' brother, his mission on Earth is to reveal to the whole of humanity the truth about our origins and to build an embassy to welcome our Fathers from space, the Elohim.

.....

Was he surprised when he discovered he was the brother of Jesus Christ?

http://www.rael.org/press/simchinese/pages/media_articles/281001b.html ://http://www.rael.org/press/simchines...s/281001b.html ://http://www.rael.org/press/simchines...s/281001b.html ://http://www.rael.org/press/simchines...s/281001b.html

 

More examples of self delusion

 

The little Eloha told Raël many things, but here's the basic gist. Back on the home planet, cloning technology was developed. The ethics committees of that planet were strictly against human cloning, and asked the scientists to travel to another planet to perform their horrid experiments. After searching awhile, the Elohim discovered Earth, terraformed it, and cloned themselves with glee. Those ethical tyrants on the home planet were very upset, and forced the scientist Elohim to return, leaving their creations in ignorance of their true origin.

 

 

And now we see a bit scientology fiction mixed in

 

According to Raël, all the world's religions are a bastardized version of the truth:

 

Wow, That sure does sound familar.

 

How convienent for Mr Rael?

 

All the others are false and his is the true one. Can he actually prove his assertion?

 

In marketing this is called thrashing the competition, and it has been used before in religion. ....By St Paul himself

 

Gal 1:9

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

2 Cor 11:12-15

But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Rael is nothing more than a modern day Paul who wants to start a new religion.

 

the prophets were messengers from the Elohim, and the apocalypse is the day the Elohim return to take us to the planet we came from. However, we cannot experience the true glory of space travel until we welcome the Elohim visibly.

 

We don't welcome imaginary people.

 

Why Raël? He argues two things: one, that the world's leaders are too corrupt to be entrusted with a message of this importance, and two, the Elohim happen to control the genetic code, and Raël was the living human who most closely matched their genetic plan for a messiah. In fact, he matched so closely that the Elohim dropped by again in 1975 and took him to their planet for a meet-and-greet.

So the world leaders are corrupt and he not. For a non corrupted guy, he sure has a lot of money.

 

About the second part he makes up the prophecy/requirement and he fulfills it.

 

Where is the so called "genetic plan for the messiah"?

 

Wow. now where I have I seen this sort of self prophecy fulfillment.mmmmm could it be in the bible?

 

Do I need to see any more evidence that he is just one of those conmen/fraud who want to decieve innocent people for their money?

 

The Rick A. Ross Institute (Studies Destructive Cults)

 

Documentary On Raelians

[NorthenSun]

Why not make life forms less complicated. Why all unnecessary parts ...

 

Like GUMBY

 

[aynalhub]

Why not make life forms less complicated. Why all unnecessary parts ...

 

Like GUMBY

 

 

 

that was so delightful, i hugged my coffee. thank you!

[Samurai Tailor]

Why not make life forms less complicated. Why all unnecessary parts ...

 

Like GUMBY

 

Or Gumby, dammit.

 

[aynalhub]

Why not make life forms less complicated. Why all unnecessary parts ...

 

Like GUMBY

 

Or Gumby, dammit.

 

 

I used to watch Gumby as a tween, because it is so bizarre, and there is one episode where gumby goes to a toy chest, pulls out a mask of Eddie Murphy, puts it on, and proceeds to move his arms up and down mechanically, making a non-descript sound as he does so. I remember this very clearly because I was sent to the principal's office in jr. high for imitating it at lunch, because my computer teacher thought i was doing an unflattering impression of her. <sigh> I should never have grown my hair that year.

 

So has anyone else seen that???