The Bible And Rape

[Taphophilia]

I'm not defending the passage that started this thread, but just want to clarify something.

 

From my understanding, the passage was indeed some sort of protectorate for the raped female. If a man rapes a woman out of wedlock, then she is trashed for life. No one else will want her, so basically, that rule was to make her legitimate in a sense. That man who raped her now has to take care of her for the rest of her life, because he ruined her life in the first place.

 

No, that isn't a great practice, and again, not defending it in any way, but that's what it was for.

 

The property rule applies when a man sleeps with another man's WIFE...yep, he messed with another dude's stuff, therefore, they both gotta go.

 

So baisically it's a you break it, you buy it rule?

 

The concubine in Judges 19 was a wife, not a slave. She ran away and went back home. The guy refers to her father as his father in law in previous verses when he went there to go get her back. That's why they were in that city. He went to fetch his woman, then through her out to the crowd to be used. I wonder why she ran away?

[Angel]

From my understanding, the passage was indeed some sort of protectorate for the raped female. If a man rapes a woman out of wedlock, then she is trashed for life. No one else will want her, so basically, that rule was to make her legitimate in a sense. That man who raped her now has to take care of her for the rest of her life, because he ruined her life in the first place.

 

 

And the best way to make sure she is taken care of and protected is to put her in a position to be raped again and to face the asshole that did it every day and night of her life.... boy these writers I swear. Like someone said, it is a you break it you bought it type thing. Either way, no matter how it is sliced, what loving god would do such a thing? This book is held with such high esteem and honor by many, but I can not think for the life of me as to WHY?

 

 

PS, No worries, I know you are not defending the verse.

[Vixentrox]

Our resident Christians are rather silent as usual when this topic comes up. Too busy covering thier eyes and sticking plugs in thier ears going "la la la lal la IM NOT LISTENING! I CAN'T HEAR YOU lalalalala"

[Curtdude]

....God cared enough about human affairs to detail how to slaughter a cow in sacrifice, yet he couldn't be bothered to mumble a few words about equal treatment for women. The Christians all point to the "culture of the time", but who was supposed to be dictating a divinely set up culture- man or god?

 

You've stated this very well, MadameM (as usual). The emancipation from property status does not appear to be the message that this deity is concerned with for women. Not a particularly revolutionary religion.

[Eponymic]

Our resident Christians are rather silent as usual when this topic comes up. Too busy covering thier eyes and sticking plugs in thier ears going "la la la lal la IM NOT LISTENING! I CAN'T HEAR YOU lalalalala"

 

And how. Uh oh, logic & facts, time to that mind

[Vigile]

Our resident Christians are rather silent as usual when this topic comes up. Too busy covering thier eyes and sticking plugs in thier ears going "la la la lal la IM NOT LISTENING! I CAN'T HEAR YOU lalalalala"

 

 

Exactly. They jump all over subjects that their pastors have provided them answers for. They steer noticably clear of these hot potatoes.

 

Their intellectual dishonesty speaks volumes.

[Cat]

What is scary is I can recall clearly reading this when I was an xtian and it was as if my mind was turned off. It's like when you watch a film or a play and you suspend your disbelief.

 

 

It is amazing what you ignore when you are "programmed". Believe me, I can relate! It is exactly what you said....the mind has shut off. Glad that we reclaimed our brains!

I never knew about these sorts of passages until recently- either that or I heard and my mind just switched them off, which is a possible explanation. It was a shock to the system when I started to see and accept what the OT actually did say. The Sodom story with Lot- I'd never twigged what Lot was prepared to do to his family, his own daughters, offer them up to be raped, and still be counted as a "righteous" man...

[Seabiscuit]

[it is fun times for women in biblegod world. God cared enough about human affairs to detail how to slaughter a cow in sacrifice, yet he couldn't be bothered to mumble a few words about equal treatment for women. The Christians all point to the "culture of the time", but who was supposed to be dictating a divinely set up culture- man or god?

 

 

As a very small, submissive teenage girl, I use to wonder "What's in it for me?" I wasn't bright enough to ask it this way. My father use to say "God has a plan for each one of us. We don't always understand his plan, but that's because we're merely humans."

 

I'd look around and it was my brothers and father who had all the power in the family. OK, so my father did, but my brothers were groomed to have absolute power in their future families.

 

I like my question better then my father's answer! You know what strikes me is that the bible is more of a reflection of humans then some bigger then life god. In a way, the bible proves humans not only exist but can do some pretty terrible stuff. Whatever god might have had planned for me, wasn't in my interest; it was in the interest of those who wanted to control me. I'll never understand why I belived this crap even for a second!

 

Good riddance!!!

 

I grew up in my christian home feeling like I was less then human because I was a female. After reading this thread, I now know why!

[LadyFeline]

Our RESIDENT Christians might be holding their tongues, but you should hear the disjointed rambling of a Christian I know from another board on this very topic.

 

Well *i* didn't know. Looking at that passage, I think a lot of the problem here is shes using old king James, which A) isnt very accurate, and is hard to read. Heres the passage in NIV.

 

When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beutiful women, and desire her, and would take her for your wife, you shall bring her home to your house. She shall pull off the clothes of her captivity (Fwiff note: Metophorical in a sense, IE not be a captive anymore), and she shall shave her head and trim her nails (Fwiff note: If I understand correctly, a sign of being accepted into the Jewish culture), and mourn her father and mother a full month (Fwiffo note: Again, IIUC, during this period you can't do anything to her in any sense), after that, you may go to her and she shall be your wife. And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certanly shall not sell her for money, you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her.

 

Fwiffo: Not nearly as bad, is it? Certanly not rape.

 

After this, he THEN goes on to state that ALL Biblical translations are accurate. Despite saying here that the KJV is INaccurate.

 

And here's some REALLY good ones:

 

Me: You're right. Deuteronomy covered that pretty well. If the girl was in the city, and didn't scream, she was stoned to death along with her assailant (and I don't think I have to elaborate on how horrible it is to die by stoning. What a cruel way to punish someone who didn't even do anything wrong...). If she was out in the country, she just was forced to marry the man who violated her.

 

Fwiffo: Total lack of comprehension here lady.

 

The towns were small, really, really small. There was no way to effectivly shut her up. If he killed her, he would be killed immidiatly on discovery. They would hear her screaming and come to her aid. If she didnt scream, it was consensual. There was not much of a middle ground, and there was no easy way to hide any evidence. Your trying to read a 1200 year BC document with a 20th century mindset, of COURSE it doesnt make sense to you. It makes perfect sense when you realize the circumstances they were living in.

 

Now, get to the married part. The man would be forever branded, and forever closly watched, and he would have to pay a massive dowry sum to the daughters family, and he would be enslaved to her. The girl could and would report any abuses, and maybe you should look up the punishments for abusing your wife.

 

Me: Fwiffo, you're an idiot if you think that every woman who is raped screams and struggles. What if he'd bound and gagged her?

 

With what? Stuff isn't exactly readily available in this little tiny towns. Im sure if somehow he did manage to bind and gag her, she would be given a pass.

 

Me: What if he had a knife to her throat and threatened to kill her if she made a sound? There are a lot of reasons why a woman wouldn't scream and struggle against her attacker.

 

He wouldnt have a chance to kill her- as I said, there are people less then 5 feet away. There would be no chance for the guy to get away, and unless he was going to kill her anyway, it wouldnt do him any good. He'd die regardless of what he did, except the pun ishment would be harsher for the murderer.

 

Me: And, as for "reading an old document and trying to apply it to the 20th century" bit? Pot? Kettle? Black.

 

Haha cute. Ill ignore that.

 

Me: 1. No, he did not have to pay a "massive dowry sum". He paid the girl's father thirty pieces of silver (IIRC).

 

Which for the time, was a hell of a lot.

 

Me: 2. As for the rest, that is not present anywhere in the Bible - there are no verses that say the rape victim has control over her assailant, or that he is "enslaved" to her after being forced to marry him (of course not. That would be contrary to the whole "man being the head of the household and the woman being subservient to him" scriptures...), or that she could tell her family about anything else he did to her after he pretty much bought her as "spoiled goods" from her daddy. Altering "God's Word", much?

 

Look deeper. Find other versus- he hardly had a free pass to marraige.

 

Me: Go read your Bible, Fwiffo. Really read it. All of it. And actually see what it says instead of overlooking the parts you don't like because they're too "dirty".

 

I do.

 

VP: So an unstated "no" is a "yes" in your book?

 

Wow. That's absolutely hugging sick.

 

Fwiffo: Cute, way to distort my words buddy.

 

Did you miss the part where they are in a ridiculously small village? There are people less then five feet away, through nothing more then a tents fabric. She can scream- even a shout will atract attention. In fact, thats what they are told to do as kids, from birth. They are in an entirly different culture, and all the nuances of our sex-crazed American life simply didnt exist.

 

VP: ...mean that you think that an unstated "no" means "yes" or not? After all, if she doesn't scream or say no, she's saying yes, right? That's what those words up there mean in that particular arrangement. Thousands of rapists have used that exact concept to try and wriggle out of being punished for their crimes. Are you saying that they were correct? That "no" means "no" only if it's explicitly, loudly stated?!

 

Your trying to argue about different times. Its not easy to rape and kill a woman. You dont have a lot of time to gag her, you cant get her into a car and drive away, you dont have anything to drug her with, and you wont be able to get away with it because theres a large family with strong men on all four sides of your tent. Women are not so helpless that they cant kick the guy away and scream. He doesnt have a gun to kill her quickly with, all he has is a knife and he has to get really close to deliver a fatal wound, and at very best he has sword (which Im sure people will be wondering what your doing with when there isnt anybody to fight). All it takes is one shout to arrouse attention because there are people less then five feet away.

 

Your trying again to apply a man and a woman in a darkened apartment to a man and a woman in the middle of a little camp with people on all sides.

 

Get it?

 

More apologetics and spin-doctoring can be found archived here and here. Just be prepared for some stomach-churning twists and turns from the disgusting little bastard.

[Angel]

Some one needs to SLAP that fucktard!!! So in otherwords, even if a knife is involved, the woman should be able to get away....if she does not scream, she wanted it UGH! Some women do not fight because of FEAR! Fear paralizes you to where you can not kick and scream. What a jerk.

[Eponymic]

That spindoctoring really is annoying. Even if they water down the rape part, it's still horrible because you're taking a person against their will, forcing them to change their ways, and then raping them. Because taking her still means taking her without her consent as that has not been given or mentioned in any fashion during the whole NIV passage either!

[Angel]

Oh yes, gotta just LOVE how they try to take you back to the days of bible time.... *NOT*

They can try and try to explain it away until they are blue in the face....it is in black and white....if they want to try to see some hidden, spiritual meaning behind it, it is only so they do not have to face the fact that the bible god they love and hold so dearly is nothing more than a monster...period.

 

About the fear issue, it is hard to say one way or the other how a woman is going to react when attacked. Just like you Madame with your kitty, when you are taken off guard and by surprise, no telling how you are going to react.

For that idiot to sit there and say this and that...he must have his head up his butt.

[LadyFeline]

I've actually invited the little fuckwit here to try and debate his points, specifically those involving rape.

 

He declined, go figure. He's just terrified of being in a place without all of his male-Christian Bible-thumping buddies to back him up. Without them, he knows he'd get his ass kicked, and the vast majority of the time, he refuses to admit that he's EVER wrong. About ANYTHING. Even when he's caught lying.

 

In short... typical Fundie fucknut.

[Angel]

I've actually invited the little fuckwit here to try and debate his points, specifically those involving rape.

 

He declined, go figure. He's just terrified of being in a place without all of his male-Christian Bible-thumping buddies to back him up. Without them, he knows he'd get his ass kicked, and the vast majority of the time, he refuses to admit that he's EVER wrong. About ANYTHING. Even when he's caught lying.

 

In short... typical Fundie fucknut.

Awww poor fundy What's the matter? Won't his little bible god protect him from big, bad, us?? lol

Honestly, I have noticed that a lot of christians are that way. Even when they are cornered and proven wrong, not only can't they admitt it, but argue that we are all wrong and that we are taking out of context and only reading the letter of the word and not the spiritual side. UGH! Damn straight he would get his ass kicked at this forum. There are MANY intelligent and biblically educated people here....he would not stand a chance. Something else against him, all of us actually know how to THINK because we took back our brains!!!

[Guest pink_panther]

hey all...about this whole rape thing......its CRUEL!..to say the least.

what parent in their right state of mind would even ALLOW their daughter to have

contact with the agressor? Let alone marry him?...but then again were talking

christianity...anything happens. Ill tell you what I'dve shot the SOB!!!

The bible, I think, gets people in more trouble than it does out!

then they(christians) will say shit like "you let it happen" or "god is punishing you, you need to repent" or the most famous one "we'll pray about it" F**C that what about some social

support...I mean c'mon they say that "god is love" but they never back it up.

FUNDIES well, I think I'm done for now...TTFN

[white_raven23]

It really gets me when they make tons of noise, saying none of it's rape or enslavement at all......but give them the reference about the men of Sodom wanting to "know" Lot's male visitor (yes, I'm stuck on an S&G thing today), and they have NO problem perceiving exactly what activity those men were wanted for.......and then turn right around and still call Lot a righteous man after sending his daughters outside.

 

Between one verse and the next........CHRISTIAN AMNESIA!

[Angel]

Between one verse and the next........CHRISTIAN AMNESIA!

 

You are not kdding!!!!!! It seems that way with a lot of scriptures doesn't it???

[Guest pink_panther]

I'm sayin'!! I swear the bible is so full of shit like that. So much

that you could put it all in one book and call

it "THE BOOK OF BULLSHIT" or something.

like one verse says one thing and go into another book or chapter

and it says something TOTALLY opposite!

was god a psycho or something??? These christians are the same way

HIPPOCRYTES....ALL of them! Say one thing and turn around

and do something different. Like father like son I guess

I can go on for ever about this kind of shit.

[Vixentrox]

Come little Christians, tell us how wrong we got it. Try and explain away the words of your feeble god's perfect book.

[godlessgrrl]

Wow. LadyFeline, where does this asshole you've been posting about get off thinking he knows jack shit about what life was like in the OT Levant?

 

I'd be grilling his ass for his sources. He wouldn't provide them, of course, but I'd still be grilling him. It would be interesting to see what excuse for justifying rape he used, once his fabrications unraveled.

 

What a sick little fuck.

[IAm_Lucifer]

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

 

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

 

This is my favourite verse to use when discussing religion with fundies. I must of brought it up about 100 times during a small stint I had over at Tribby Forces. No one I have ever come across has even tried to explain it away, though I can imagine what they would say is someone did.

 

"Our minds can not rationalize at the level of god's, so don't even try".

 

What else could they say?

[Guest thirstforknowledge]

I did some looking around the net and located this site:

 

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

 

After reading the scriptures pointed out, I am absoultely stunned and appalled.

The one quote that stood out to me was this one...

 

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

 

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

 

 

What kind of loving god would make the VICTIM MARRY THE ATTACKER?!?!?

 

Please tell me that I am understanding this correctly. I know that I also ran across some reading that said that it was not rape, but fornication they were talking about???? (Christian sites)

I know what I read.... and what I got out of it was that the god in the bible is deranged and cruel! I started to believe this of him some time ago about other issues, but this really ices the cake.

 

It really isn't so horrific if you view the bible for what it is. A description of an ancienty culture's societal laws and views. One of the nicest cultures for its time, I might add.

[godlessgrrl]

It really isn't so horrific if you view the bible for what it is. A description of an ancienty culture's societal laws and views. One of the nicest cultures for its time, I might add.

 

Eh, it's still horrific - the OT is horrific overall. I agree with you that it's a description of an ancient culture's religious beliefs and laws. I certainly take it as nothing more than that: a reflection of the culture and authors who created it.

 

I'm not convinced it was one of the nicer cultures of the time though. I suspect OT culture would have us believe it was - but I'm not totally buying it. Check out Minoan culture, for instance. That was pretty kickass. Sure beat the Hebrews, that's for damn sure.

[BlueGiant]

It disturbs me how much I ignored in the OT, the deals with rape, and let's not mention about 8 counts of genocide as well (oh, excuse me...ethnic cleansing). It was like reading with blinders on, that you just gloss over it. After all, you've been told that it is good, so it must be...right?

 

As for the fear. Yeah, I have only locked up two times because of it. One was with a safety harness where I had to use it's redundancy, and the other was holding a burning flask of methanol and hydrogen that had just spontaneously combusted. Strange that he cannot understand this. I guess he hasn't lived.

 

And villages/cities were not nearly as small as he made them out to be. Not that he would let little things like facts get in his way. Awww...the little fundie doesn't want to come out and play.

[Stormwarden]

The Stormwarden method of dealing with rapists aka: the method I wish was legal:

 

1) Take 9mm handgun

 

2) Put gun to rapist's head

 

3) Squeeze trigger.

 

The sad part: If I did this to a rapist, even one caught in the act, I'D be the one going to jail.

 

My thoughts on the topic: The Bible was used to justify mistreatment of women, and still is up to the present day. I know someone very near and dear to me who was systematically sexually abused by some fucktard from age 3 to 11. He had used the story of Mary Magdeline to justify it, and used the Old testament to do the same to her.

 

Those of you who don't know why I hate religious zealots, you just got a look at one reason. They use the Buy-Bull to justify anything and everything, and expect everyone to suck up to them because of it.