Just A Thought That Occurred To Me This Morning.

[Ellinas]

Certainty.

People crave it. They want to know not only that things will work out as they wish, but that things are as they seem. This is the basis of the almost universal demand for conformity. Conformity to what is another matter - but ultimately it depends on what the person demanding conformity himself believes.

Hence the materialist claims nothing beyond what science tells him is proven. The religious person takes comfort in the doctrines that his own subjective experiences have told him must be true - without realizing that the doctrines have themselves shaped the experience.

But I cannot accept that spirituality has this form or basis.

However I view this life, it seems a journey along paths I cannot see, let alone foresee, to a destination that I do not know or understand, via the medium of my own consciousness which is, itself, an intractable mystery.

I am certain of little. I may choose to believe something, but rarely would claim knowledge. But it is the uncertainty that permits the acceptance of possibilities, and the possibilities that open up the alternative routes of my wayfaring.

I do not claim to be spiritual; but in seeking spirituality, I am coming to think that uncertainty - even to the point of ignorance - is an inevitable companion and a necessary friend. Without it, I would be stifled. I would seek to stifle others.

Thoughts?

[Deva]

You are correct. Uncertainty is hard to deal with. Certainty is what the mind craves, but is unattainable by the mind. There is the illusion of certainty, which Christianity and other dogmas try to supply, but ultimately, no one has this certainty. 

 

There is something beyond uncertainty and certainty and it is within yourself. That is the only reason I care about "spirituality".

 

I don't know if this can be explained further.

[Joshpantera]

Hallelujah!!!

 

This is why I have stressed making friends with uncertainty to those seeking certainty. I was jumped all over for saying this recently, but by golly it's the truth.  

[Orbit]

To me spirituality is an experience. What is important is what I experience. It doesn't matter to me whether or not I have any certainty in explaining how or why I experience it. I'm kind of Zen that way.

[Guest Furball]

 

 

 I was jumped all over for saying this recently,

 

 

No, you attacked and i defended, there is a difference between being jumped all over and someone defending their beliefs. 

 

Ellinas - to answer your question, i have found that there are many certainties in life. What i will eat that day, the fact that i will get up and use the bathroom every morning, death, taxes, going to work, breathing, walking, drinking water etc. People who believe in uncertainties as a whole aren't realizing that uncertainties are a small percentage of daily life. It's uncertain whether or not i will get sick today, but most likely i won't. They are just looking to create panic, and believe that there is no universal truth at all. Since "everything" is uncertain, no one can know anything. The evidence is in the fact that after people live long enough on the earth, they get a sense of what is going on from day to day in a general sense. The person who believes there are only uncertainties knows that 2 + 2 = 4 (certainty) but believes that 2 + 2 might also = 5 (uncertainty). According to them, we cannot know for sure. While uncertainties do exist, this also is obviously provable, the fact is, is that certainties exist as well and far outnumber the uncertainties in life, which for the person who knows this, it creates a sense of peace. I hope this helped. -Scott

[Ellinas]

I'm not sure that the issue relates to arithmetic or everyday literal reality.  Rather the issues such as what (if anything) my consciousness and personality are, how they (and hence I) relate to the cosmos (if at all).  Even something as fundamental as "know thyself"; do I really understand me?  Somehow, I doubt it.  This is not meant to be an exhaustive list - just a flavour of how I see it as being applicable

 

I've been working on this basis on such issues for a very long time, and the use of such phrases as "anything is possible, nothing is certain" in such a context has become almost habitual.  It's only this last weekend, however, that I've formulated it into a thought process as above.

 

If concentrating on certainties gives you peace, CeilingCat, go for it.  Nothing wrong with that outlook if it works for you.

[Guest Furball]

I guess it is all about one's point of view. Some people believe our thoughts do project out into the universe and have eternal effects and consequences as far as the cosmos is concerned. As far as know thyself, it has taken me years and countless time meditating in quiet to watch my thoughts and to observe my own behaviors. As i get older, i do find that i do know myself. I guess some people might use the phrase, comfortable in my own skin. I think it's great ellinas that your asking these questions. Keep seeking and i hope you find what your looking for. I support you no matter what, thanks for the positive support above. -peace

[Ellinas]

No problem, my friend.  Though the idea of finding what I am looking for gave me a smile...  I'm not certain what it is!!!

 

(Don't take that comment too seriously - I'm just feeling mischievous!)

[Leo]

I like Orbit's perspective. I usually don't have these types of experiences. But perhaps when you have such a thing, not trying to explain it in a particular faith context or even in an atheistic one, can allow it to continue to be interesting, helpful or useful somehow.

For me it's a balance: learning how to comfortably say "I don't know," without stifling my own curiosity for how a particular event actually works. I find

 

people who resort to the god of the gaps, or the "it's all in your head" of the gaps, are equally unimaginative. Most human innovation hasrequired a great deal of human imagination.

[DayLight]

I love KNOWING.  It feels good.  I know that most of knowing is an illusion. I am fine with that because as I see it most people live in some illusions. It's the method we chose to exist in.  That's just the way it is.

 

When we believe in a set of ideas and then think that we "know" this, it's like decorating your room that you live in.  If you like it, why not.  

 

Search for real truth is also a noble task.  But how can we find it?  We are drowning in illusion.  And if there are pieces of truth, how could we know that they are real?  Very hard to tell. 

 

And yet, I do like to search, to come closer to the truth.  Although sometimes it's painful.  It's like thinking you live in a beautiful room only to "wake" up and to discover that you are actually living in ruins.  (Like in the Matrix movie.  I would NOT want to become aware of the facts as that main character did.)

 

But most of the time, we don't find "the truth", we find another illusion, and we believe it for a while.  Until we run into some other "facts" that seem to disprove it.

[Ellinas]

Given the illusions you describe, how would you know "the truth" if you found it (whatever truth may be, of course - I'm not certain the term means a great deal)?