Might Be A Storm Coming...

[Storm]

So, my daughter had her 2 year old check up today. Everything is pretty good, except for one thing: My daughter hasn't had a lot of social contact with her peers. Being an only child and being watched by my in-laws, who obviously don't have any 2 year olds,  does not bode well for her social interactions. The doctor recommended that we place her in a pre-school for maybe half day or a whole day every week so she can get the type of social interaction she needs.

 

This scares me because invariably, my wife will present some pre-school at a church as the place to send her. I don't want my daughter to go to a church pre-school. I can't think of a way to make this clear without it forcing me to reveal why I don't want her to go to a church pre-school. Smart move, those churches, to get a grip on the kids while they are young to indoctrinate them. This really bothers me and I am now a bit stressed that I will have to reveal my deconversion to my wife and a whole flippin can of worms will open. Aaarrrrgh!

 

Stupid Christianity.

 

So, does anyone have any suggestions regarding my predicament? I want to put my daughter in a secular pre-school, but I suspect that will be a problem. Any of you been in this position?

[Penguin]

I think you might be pretty well stuck, unless you can find a secular pre-school that--for some reason--overwhelms any Christian considerations. For example, is the closest pre-school to your home at a church?

[mymistake]

My wife figured out I wasn't a Christian because I kept putting off our daughter's baby dedication.  You are going to have to make a choice.  

 

Which is more important to you - not rocking the boat for a few more years or trying to get your daughter into secular school?  If the school

 

is more important to you then you can still try to keep the other on the down low but this will be tricky and have a low chance of success.

 

With that said the critical time will be when your daughter is older and she sheds her belief in Santa and the Easter Bunny.  That is a natural

 

age for children to wake up about religion too.  Support her when that happens and don't let her get shipped off to some kind of emergency

 

Bible camp.

[florduh]

Did you intend to live a lie the rest of your life? It seems the rest of your life is here!

 

I would think the act of standing up for one's beliefs, even when unpopular, would be a good example for children to see. I would also think your loved ones are entitled to know the real you. Yes, there may be conflict over it, but what value is a false peace or a love based on pretense?

[Penguin]

I assume the issue is that you want to keep your wife, but opening up that particular can about religion might lead to separation or divorce? You may have to make that choice, and you will likely have a custody battle over your daughter if that happens. It happened to a friend of mine in Alabama when he came out to his wife as an atheist (and homosexual). He lost all custody of his son because his (ex-)wife was afraid my friend would "rape their son."

 

Plan for the worst case scenario. Anything less should be a semi-pleasant surprise. I do think it's important to tell your wife, as painful as that might be.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I think you should focus on what would be best for your daughter and all other considerations can be damned.  I'm not in your shoes, but given what I went through as a result of childhood indoctrination, I keep my son as far away from that shit as possible.

[Storm]

I think you might be pretty well stuck, unless you can find a secular pre-school that--for some reason--overwhelms any Christian considerations. For example, is the closest pre-school to your home at a church?

All of the closest ones are churches. And my wife has already stated that she is interested in sending her to a pre-school that is close to my in-laws house (its also the school that my wife's nephews attended).

I assume the issue is that you want to keep your wife, but opening up that particular can about religion might lead to separation or divorce? You may have to make that choice, and you will likely have a custody battle over your daughter if that happens. It happened to a friend of mine in Alabama when he came out to his wife as an atheist (and homosexual). He lost all custody of his son because his (ex-)wife was afraid my friend would "rape their son."

 

Plan for the worst case scenario. Anything less should be a semi-pleasant surprise. I do think it's important to tell your wife, as painful as that might be.

Yea, its not gonna be pretty. I am more concerned by my wife's family than her. I think she would accept it in time, but I fear that they will push her to leave me. And not only that, they will try even more to convert my daughter. They are already pushing her towards Christianity more than I like, but I'm not interested in ricking the boat. I am confident that I can teach my daughter to be able to be skeptical and to reason. She is a daddy's girl. I think I have a good shot at keeping her from converting. But, I know that at some point, its gonna come out that I have stopped believing.

[Storm]

My wife figured out I wasn't a Christian because I kept putting off our daughter's baby dedication.  You are going to have to make a choice.  

 

Which is more important to you - not rocking the boat for a few more years or trying to get your daughter into secular school?  If the school

 

is more important to you then you can still try to keep the other on the down low but this will be tricky and have a low chance of success.

 

With that said the critical time will be when your daughter is older and she sheds her belief in Santa and the Easter Bunny.  That is a natural

 

age for children to wake up about religion too.  Support her when that happens and don't let her get shipped off to some kind of emergency

 

Bible camp.

I have every Intention to protect her as much as I can.

[Storm]

Did you intend to live a lie the rest of your life? It seems the rest of your life is here!

 

I would think the act of standing up for one's beliefs, even when unpopular, would be a good example for children to see. I would also think your loved ones are entitled to know the real you. Yes, there may be conflict over it, but what value is a false peace or a love based on pretense?

Honestly, I did. Revealing the truth brings consequences just like keeping the truth does. Its a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation regardless. I was planning to take the path of least resistance. But it looks like that isn't going to happen either.

 

The converse of your argument is the truth versus a relationship I want and a family I want. While its certainly possible that nothing will happen and life will go on, things could fall apart. I don't want to split up my family if I can prevent it. They didn't ask for this. Hell, I didn't ask for it. It is what it is. I don't want to lose my family. That's the line I am drawing. Its so fucking hard.

[Storm]

I think you should focus on what would be best for your daughter and all other considerations can be damned.  I'm not in your shoes, but given what I went through as a result of childhood indoctrination, I keep my son as far away from that shit as possible.

I agree with you. I will protect my daughter at all costs, but I am hoping to be able to do it without destroying everything I have. While it may eventually come to that, I don't want to be divorced again. and lose custody of my daughter. I don't have the money for a lawyer. My wife's parents will shell out the money for her to keep custody. I just have a hard time seeing how I could possibly win in this situation.

[Guest Furball]

I don't want to split up my family if I can prevent it. They didn't ask for this. Hell, I didn't ask for it. It is what it is. I don't want to lose my family. That's the line I am drawing. Its so fucking hard.

 

i guess jesus' statement is true. He came to divide families. That's what seems to be going on here and with a lot of families. I am truly sorry for your predicament. It seems like a lose-lose situation. I wish i could give you great advice like just be yourself or stand your ground and put the child in regular school and let her decide for herself when she gets older, but you make it sound like that would not work out, that that decision is not a viable one. -sorry 

[Storm]

 

I don't want to split up my family if I can prevent it. They didn't ask for this. Hell, I didn't ask for it. It is what it is. I don't want to lose my family. That's the line I am drawing. Its so fucking hard.

 

i guess jesus' statement is true. He came to divide families. That's what seems to be going on here and with a lot of families. I am truly sorry for your predicament. It seems like a lose-lose situation. I wish i could give you great advice like just be yourself or stand your ground and put the child in regular school and let her decide for herself when she gets older, but you make it sound like that would not work out, that that decision is not a viable one. -sorry 

 

Yeah. He is definitely working to divide mine. Thanks for your sympathy, cc. I appreciate it. Its nice to vent somewhere safe.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

I think you should focus on what would be best for your daughter and all other considerations can be damned.  I'm not in your shoes, but given what I went through as a result of childhood indoctrination, I keep my son as far away from that shit as possible.

I agree with you. I will protect my daughter at all costs, but I am hoping to be able to do it without destroying everything I have. While it may eventually come to that, I don't want to be divorced again. and lose custody of my daughter. I don't have the money for a lawyer. My wife's parents will shell out the money for her to keep custody. I just have a hard time seeing how I could possibly win in this situation.

 

I understand your pain.  Personally, I've stayed in my marriage long past the time it started becoming toxic for me simply because I don't want to lose my son.  I doubt there's any way you're going to come out of this being the "good guy".  If you and your wife are both committed to making the marriage work, then she will eventually have to realize that compromises must be made.  This will involve both of you putting yourselves into the shoes of the other, not just you giving up what you want for your child because you're the "outsider" who no longer believes like the rest of the family.

 

I certainly don't envy you your position.

[TrueFreedom]

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about a little extra dogma offered to a 2-yr-old.  Hopefully you have plenty of opportunity to counter-balance it with lessons in critical thinking.  I also do not buy the supposed need for extensive social interaction with peers of the same age.  I value social interaction with people of various ages far more.  I feel for ya in feeling the need to remain closeted.  That's difficult.  Good luck.

[mymistake]

 

Did you intend to live a lie the rest of your life? It seems the rest of your life is here!

 

I would think the act of standing up for one's beliefs, even when unpopular, would be a good example for children to see. I would also think your loved ones are entitled to know the real you. Yes, there may be conflict over it, but what value is a false peace or a love based on pretense?

Honestly, I did. Revealing the truth brings consequences just like keeping the truth does. Its a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation regardless. I was planning to take the path of least resistance. But it looks like that isn't going to happen either.

 

The converse of your argument is the truth versus a relationship I want and a family I want. While its certainly possible that nothing will happen and life will go on, things could fall apart. I don't want to split up my family if I can prevent it. They didn't ask for this. Hell, I didn't ask for it. It is what it is. I don't want to lose my family. That's the line I am drawing. Its so fucking hard.

 

 

 

 

I've posted this before but it seems relevant again.  Perhaps I was lucky.  When my wife grew suspicious she asked me about my faith.  I told her the truth.  

 

However I avoided getting drawn into theology debates.  I would usually give answers like "You would not like the answer" or "I don't want to deconvert you".  

 

Occasionally she would chew me out.  She often expressed fear that I would now cheat on her.  (I have never before but without a God why wouldn't I cheat

 

now?)  When my mother found out the two of them would occasionally gang up on me and chew me out together.  But eventually they both calmed down

 

and accepted it more or less.  I still have disagreements with both of them regarding the children being indoctrinated but the disagreements remain civil.  

 

The net result is that my children are exposed to a very mild "cultural" Christianity while I get to undermine the dangers of Christianity.  And I still get to keep

 

my marriage.  I wish you the best of luck in your current predicament. 

[Ellinas]

Oh dear.  This is horrible, and there is no easy answer.

 

Seems to me your daughter would suffer most from a broken marriage.

 

You say you think your wife would accept the position.  Her family would seek to break you apart.

 

Under those circumstances you have the chance to be honest and keep things together - but you will need to be utterly ruthless in dealing with family interference.  If you decide to reveal your position, make it clear to your wife from the start that you will not tolerate family trying to break you apart.

 

You could try saying that you want your daughter not to come under religious pressure and that is a valid view regardless of belief - that spiritual matters are issue for the home rather than for educational establishments.  Don't know how far that would get you.

 

In the end, if she's in danger of being brainwashed, you may have little choice, unfortunately.  At present you probably can't judge how independent minded she will be.

 

All the best.

[R. S. Martin]

If all she needs is same-age social interaction a few hours a week, do you have friends or relatives you could spend time with on a regular basis so she gets the interaction? In plain words, take her visiting at a friend's house if that is an option.

[Penguin]

I'm afraid I have to eat my words from earlier. I advised "coming out," but someone pointed out to me that I was being a hypocrite, because I was wanting "sympathy" (or something close enough) for the risks of coming out. In truth, I know it would be scary as metaphorical hell to come out, especially to family. I'm sorry I advised what I did earlier. Now I'm not sure what to think.

[Storm]

 

 

I think you should focus on what would be best for your daughter and all other considerations can be damned.  I'm not in your shoes, but given what I went through as a result of childhood indoctrination, I keep my son as far away from that shit as possible.

I agree with you. I will protect my daughter at all costs, but I am hoping to be able to do it without destroying everything I have. While it may eventually come to that, I don't want to be divorced again. and lose custody of my daughter. I don't have the money for a lawyer. My wife's parents will shell out the money for her to keep custody. I just have a hard time seeing how I could possibly win in this situation.

 

I understand your pain.  Personally, I've stayed in my marriage long past the time it started becoming toxic for me simply because I don't want to lose my son.  I doubt there's any way you're going to come out of this being the "good guy".  If you and your wife are both committed to making the marriage work, then she will eventually have to realize that compromises must be made.  This will involve both of you putting yourselves into the shoes of the other, not just you giving up what you want for your child because you're the "outsider" who no longer believes like the rest of the family.

 

I certainly don't envy you your position.

 

My belief is that my wife is a marginal Christian at best. She curses like a sailor and she has no depth to her commitment to Christ. If I had to label her, I would say Sunday Christian would be apt. I think she believes as a convenience and because that's what she has always done.

 

Her parents are the worst type of Christians. All zeal and no knowledge. My MIL makes it very clear that she believes what she believes no matter what. She is pushy and doesn't really care what anyone else thinks. As far as my FIL, think Duck Dynasty. That should tell you what he is like. A good guy who is obsessed with Jesus, but there is no real fruit being born from his faith.

 

My wife has too many good qualities that overshadow her faith. These qualities are what are important to me. That is what makes it hard to be open to the possibility of ending the relationship. As much as Christianity annoys me at times, its something that I can put up with in order to get the stuff I want and need in my marriage. That's what keeps me going.

 

I feel like I have the tools and abilities to be able to teach my daughter to be a skeptic and to reason and think for herself. Hell, I work as a behavioral therapist, that should say something...lol. So, with my training and, of course, all of you guys here, I feel I have what I need to help my daughter become a freethinker.

[Storm]

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about a little extra dogma offered to a 2-yr-old.  Hopefully you have plenty of opportunity to counter-balance it with lessons in critical thinking.  I also do not buy the supposed need for extensive social interaction with peers of the same age.  I value social interaction with people of various ages far more.  I feel for ya in feeling the need to remain closeted.  That's difficult.  Good luck.

I see why the Dr. is recommending it. But, I think she is doing fine so far.

[Storm]

Oh dear.  This is horrible, and there is no easy answer.

 

Seems to me your daughter would suffer most from a broken marriage.

 

This is why I am not interested in a potential breakup. I can handle the Christianity crap. Its not fair to burden her with all this other adult crap. She needs to be a kid, not another statistic.

[Storm]

 

 

 

Did you intend to live a lie the rest of your life? It seems the rest of your life is here!

 

I would think the act of standing up for one's beliefs, even when unpopular, would be a good example for children to see. I would also think your loved ones are entitled to know the real you. Yes, there may be conflict over it, but what value is a false peace or a love based on pretense?

Honestly, I did. Revealing the truth brings consequences just like keeping the truth does. Its a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation regardless. I was planning to take the path of least resistance. But it looks like that isn't going to happen either.

 

The converse of your argument is the truth versus a relationship I want and a family I want. While its certainly possible that nothing will happen and life will go on, things could fall apart. I don't want to split up my family if I can prevent it. They didn't ask for this. Hell, I didn't ask for it. It is what it is. I don't want to lose my family. That's the line I am drawing. Its so fucking hard.

 

 

I've posted this before but it seems relevant again.  Perhaps I was lucky.  When my wife grew suspicious she asked me about my faith.  I told her the truth.  

 

However I avoided getting drawn into theology debates.  I would usually give answers like "You would not like the answer" or "I don't want to deconvert you".  

 

Occasionally she would chew me out.  She often expressed fear that I would now cheat on her.  (I have never before but without a God why wouldn't I cheat now?)  When my mother found out the two of them would occasionally gang up on me and chew me out together.  But eventually they both calmed down and accepted it more or less.  I still have disagreements with both of them regarding the children being indoctrinated but the disagreements remain civil.  

 

The net result is that my children are exposed to a very mild "cultural" Christianity while I get to undermine the dangers of Christianity.  And I still get to keepmy marriage.  I wish you the best of luck in your current predicament.

 

Storm,

This is frustrating. I can imagine your anxiety both about your daughter becoming indoctrinated, and your feeling pressured now to tell your wife that you no longer believe. But I echo florduh's remarks. It seems now is the time to tell your wife. I understand the ideal situation would be for things to continue just as they are. But you know, in your rational mind, they can't. Everything changes. And change brings us to points of decisions, and actions.

Perhaps if you come out now to your wife, some sort of compromise can be reached, as MM has described. The result may not be as unpleasant as you imagine right now. The longer you keep your deconversion concealed, the more tension there might be if/when you do tell her. Had you considered trying to tell her gradually, or were you going to hope to never tell her at all, or have to tell her everything at once (which would shock and overwhelm her, and probably result in her becoming more defensive and reactionary)?

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about a little extra dogma offered to a 2-yr-old.  Hopefully you have plenty of opportunity to counter-balance it with lessons in critical thinking.  I also do not buy the supposed need for extensive social interaction with peers of the same age.  I value social interaction with people of various ages far more.  I feel for ya in feeling the need to remain closeted.  That's difficult.  Good luck.

This is something to consider, at least to ease your anxiety somewhat. My niece attended a UMC preschool. She even mentioned Jesus a few times to me during that time. However, my sister's household is non-religious. My niece has never been indoctrinated. (I wouldn't call her exposure to Christian ideas at the UMC preschool indoctrination.) My niece is now 13 y/o and is very science-oriented and rational-minded. She is quite Humanistic in her thinking, and views the bible much as I do: cultural mythology.

 

Of course, your wife is a believer. But as TF suggests, you will still have the ongoing opportunity to teach your daughter critical thinking. If you dig in your heels against your wife's wishes, it might cause her to draw on her parents for more support of her position. If you compromise a little bit now, it might ease some of the pressure. But if you could come out to your wife, by degrees, you might be able to articulate a rational basis to her in a way she could accept. And her feeling less overwhelmed, she would feel less threatened, and maybe more willing to compromise.

 

I hope you can work something out, to at least diminish your anxiety right now.

 

Thanks for your response, Human. I think you are generally right.

 

Truth be told, I may be overreacting a bit. Nothing has come of it yet. I suspect it will at some point in the near future.

[Storm]

I'm afraid I have to eat my words from earlier. I advised "coming out," but someone pointed out to me that I was being a hypocrite, because I was wanting "sympathy" (or something close enough) for the risks of coming out. In truth, I know it would be scary as metaphorical hell to come out, especially to family. I'm sorry I advised what I did earlier. Now I'm not sure what to think.

No worries Penguin. I didn't take anything you said incorrectly. You have a valid point either way. For me, like I said before, I can handle the Christian crap. I just can't handle the thought of being single and having to share my daughter with another person. I want her to grow up in a family. While I understand that she would probably be fine if my wife and I ended up divorced over this, I don't want that. I would rather suffer and give my daughter a good stable environment than a broken home.

[midniterider]

Regarding divorce, it isn't the end of the world. It need not be the end of your love life nor family life nor is someone's divorce horror story necessarily going to be your horror story.

 

Divorce does not destroy children. Children are resilient. Adults find new partners to love. Life goes on. Perhaps better than before.

 

Outing yourself does not necessarily guarantee that divorce is in your future. You fear divorce. Your spouse probably does also.

 

What holds your marriage together? Is the only reason your wife loves you is because she thinks you love Jesus? Hopefully she loves you for you. But if not, this marriage might not be so great.

 

Divorce (with a child involved in the mix) saved my sanity. It was a big emotional upheaval. But it was quite needed. And then life went on.

 

..............

 

But I don't think you're at the point of divorce yet. Your child's greatest force for reason and logic is you. Plant the idea in your child's ear that these church people are well intentioned but a little insane (just nod when they do their church thing and laugh inside). Or fight against the church day care with all your might. Life will work out and there will be peace eventually.

[Storm]

Regarding divorce, it isn't the end of the world. It need not be the end of your love life nor family life nor is someone's divorce horror story necessarily going to be your horror story.

 

Divorce does not destroy children. Children are resilient. Adults find new partners to love. Life goes on. Perhaps better than before.

 

Outing yourself does not necessarily guarantee that divorce is in your future. You fear divorce. Your spouse probably does also.

 

What holds your marriage together? Is the only reason your wife loves you is because she thinks you love Jesus? Hopefully she loves you for you. But if not, this marriage might not be so great.

 

Divorce (with a child involved in the mix) saved my sanity. It was a big emotional upheaval. But it was quite needed. And then life went on.

 

..............

 

But I don't think you're at the point of divorce yet. Your child's greatest force for reason and logic is you. Plant the idea in your child's ear that these church people are well intentioned but a little insane (just nod when they do their church thing and laugh inside). Or fight against the church day care with all your might. Life will work out and there will be peace eventually.

I know you are right. I am already divorced once, so I know how it works and what it does. Fortunately, my ex and I did not have any kids. My life got a lot better after I got divorced, so I can totally say that what you said is true in regards to divorce. But I enjoy the life I have with my wife and daughter. That's what I don't want to give up.

 

As far as my wife and I, I know that she loves me for me, but she has made it clear that she misses our spiritual relationship. Over the past 2 years, I have pretty much abandoned all the things I regularly did as a believer, except attend church, and even that has been reduced. We might go twice a month. Like I said earlier, its not so much my wife that I am concerned about, although there is some concern there. Its more her family and how they will push her and make her life difficult. She is very close to her mother and her mom can and does influence her a lot. That is my biggest fear. I wouldn't even be surprised if my in-laws even started bad mouthing me in front of my daughter and to my wife. They can be poisonous, I've seen it. Its all this extra crap I don't want to have an opportunity to come to be. Like I said earlier, I can handle the christianity crap. I just don't want to make life more difficult than it needs to be.