LimitedEdition Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I've been watching debates here, watching atheist youtubers, watching professional debates such as the one of Bill Nye and Ken Ham (that one was epic) and all of that and I know that this effort must be working because the secular world is growing. However, when I debate... it can be fun and amusing but it can also be rather draining. Is it really worth my time to debate christians in my life or online? Especially online. I actually followed one of our members to his post on a christian forum, and so I thought about joining over there. Would I likely just end up frustrated at the end of the day? Even if I might believe that getting them to ask questions for their own good (wow, that sounds condescending!) could benefit them or someone reading, I would never get to see that part of it. I don't know, it's frustrating how some people really just can't get past their own notions of what an atheist is (namely, that atheists actually DO believe in god but are just angry at him or love their sin and the christians also might refuse to accept that this disbelief is probably not a choice). I don't want to go on a deconversation mission (I lied, that would be totally great if it could work) just maybe help someone who maybe could use a little seed of truth planted in their mind. I don't know how much of that paragraph makes sense, but what do you guys think? Should I bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I don't think anyone but you can decide what's truly worth of your time.Anyway, I'm sure you'd get a lot of "I'll pray for you" and many kinds of dodging your questions, but I think it's the lurkers who might actually get something to think about from watching such debates.Some time ago I tried to post some difficult questions on a New age forum, and in the visible comments by the noisiest members, everything got over-explained into a good/neutral thing by arguments based on subjective truth, karma and astrology-based destiny. I should hope that at least someone sat down to think for a second, though.Right now I don't have the energy to do that kind of work, but nothing that affects people's decision making and their attitude to suffering should be presented absolutely, 100% harmless and above of all criticism. ETA: addition to the last paragraph - especially if it's based on things that can't be proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 18, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2015 They are there to prove their faith, you are there to prove them wrong. I can't see an upside. Faith does not have a logical argument, otherwise it wouldn't be faith. Logic gets trumped by faith every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I find debate draining and--more often than not--fruitless. I have often longed for and rarely seen the kind of discourse a friend of mine received while serving a jail sentence. He met a Muslim man. My friend is a Christian (he was jailed for being unable to pay his child support after unfair increases; different story for a different time). "This is what Christians believe about this," my friend would say. "This is what Muslims believe about it," the man would reply. "Interesting. So the difference seems to be this." "Yes. But here are the similarities." It was Hindu cow calm. It was cooperative. It was based on a mutual desire to learn and respect one another. Christians and Free Thinkers rarely experience those. Christians assume Free Thinkers are amoral and/or outright antagonistic. Free Thinkers don't often find someone who can keep up with them intellectually, so they see Christians as being ignorant and unintelligent. These biases (true or not) get in the way of proper debate. Emotions get high strung, arguments start going all over the place, and most people just end up frustrated. I am an emotional person. I could write book after book and be calm about it. On an Internet forum or in personal discussion, I'm more of a whirlwind who can get uppity about things. If you're like me, I'd recommend against entering into debate unless you like the taste of humble pie. I'm engaging in debate on a Christian forum because I want to hone my skills and learn. I get mad, yeah, but I also learn from my experiences. So unless you really want to hone your skills in debate and you enjoy being a masochist (as there are other ways to hone your skills), I'd avoid the forums. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I've been watching debates here, watching atheist youtubers, watching professional debates such as the one of Bill Nye and Ken Ham (that one was epic) and all of that and I know that this effort must be working because the secular world is growing. However, when I debate... it can be fun and amusing but it can also be rather draining. Is it really worth my time to debate christians in my life or online? Especially online. I actually followed one of our members to his post on a christian forum, and so I thought about joining over there. Would I likely just end up frustrated at the end of the day? Even if I might believe that getting them to ask questions for their own good (wow, that sounds condescending!) could benefit them or someone reading, I would never get to see that part of it. I don't know, it's frustrating how some people really just can't get past their own notions of what an atheist is (namely, that atheists actually DO believe in god but are just angry at him or love their sin and the christians also might refuse to accept that this disbelief is probably not a choice). I don't want to go on a deconversation mission (I lied, that would be totally great if it could work) just maybe help someone who maybe could use a little seed of truth planted in their mind. I don't know how much of that paragraph makes sense, but what do you guys think? Should I bother? Do you want to convert those online Christians because you know and have the 'real truth' and they should buy into your world view? I dont think it's my place to show up on their feel-good website to rain on their parade. We should let each other believe what we want. I would be a bit more aggressive if someone showed up at my door and tried to talk to me about god, but internet websites cannot intrude on my personal life. I have to actually make an effort to visit that website, so going to their site and ripping them a new one is unwarranted aggression/trolling, imo. Would you likely end up frustrated when thousands of Christians tear you up like we tear them up in the Lion's Den? Probably. lol. It might be a lot of fun to irritate them but to go there to seriously try to deconvert them. Nah, live and let live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 when i was a christian i debated everyone, even christians when i first deconverted i wanted to debate believers after being on this site awhile now i have learned that those debates are a waste of time you're trying to disprove that the christian world doesn't exist to someone who believes in a magical world waste of time -me(ow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedEdition Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Enjoy being a masochist... that describes me perfectly, but not physically lol. Honing debate skills is another good reason, I might join just for that. And of course the sweet, sweet whatever about it that makes it relate masochist behavior Lol. I never stated that I intended to be aggression/trolling toward anyone. And, I can only say that I have the truth as far as the scientific method does - I guess that's world view and so yes, I think it is the correct one not because "I feel it" but because it's the only one that produces measurable results that anybody can, or hypothetically could, test for themselves. I know everybody feels this exact same way about their world view, and if someone disagrees that you can't just believe in what you see, what a cold world that would be, well, I just politely disagree with them. And maybe there are ghosts and ghouls and whatever! I'm not saying I know if there are or aren't I just don't see a reason to worry about it. The 'live and let live' thing is nice until somebody's stealing something from you, then you have to correct them on why it's wrong, and if that doesn't work then you have to stop them from really living (imprisonment) just so that they can't do that to you anymore. when i was a christian i debated everyone, even christians when i first deconverted i wanted to debate believers after being on this site awhile now i have learned that those debates are a waste of time you're trying to disprove that the christian world doesn't exist to someone who believes in a magical world waste of time -me(ow) You're right, CeilingCat, I am still a new deconvert I guess, so right now this freedom and these feelings and ideas are all very new and exciting and I just wanna share the good news! However, it is absolutely a waste of time unless it actually gets someone thinking, and you will never ever see that happen because the person you're talking to would never admit that you had a hand in getting them thinking, and on lookers won't bother or won't be able to find you to tell you either if you're not famous like Richard Dawkins for example. By the way, have you seen that Love Letters to Richard Dawkins video? It's hysterical. I think I will join for a while, if only to hone my debate skills! Then when it comes up in everyday situations, I'll have an answer and maybe some kid will hear that exchange and get to questing their own beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedEdition Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 "This is what Christians believe about this," my friend would say. "This is what Muslims believe about it," the man would reply. "Interesting. So the difference seems to be this." "Yes. But here are the similarities." It was Hindu cow calm. It was cooperative. It was based on a mutual desire to learn and respect one another. I would like this greatly. I'm tempted to say that it would happen more often if the christians weren't so damn scared of the questions and so concerned about saving our souls, but now I'm doing the same thing to them that I complained that they were doing to me! Isn't it fun to be a human? I mean that from the bottom of my heart, it's fascinating really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 If you're a masochist who enjoys learning and you're there for a purpose, I say go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You're right, CeilingCat, I am still a new deconvert I guess, so right now this freedom and these feelings and ideas are all very new and exciting and I just wanna share the good news! However, it is absolutely a waste of time unless it actually gets someone thinking, That's the problem though. I thought that i could make a difference and get someone thinking. But the problem is, is that these people don't want to think. If you start making sense then they either think satan is influencing you to try and deconvert them or they just shut the conversation down as quickly as possible. I wish you all the luck in the world though. -peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedEdition Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 If you're a masochist who enjoys learning and you're there for a purpose, I say go for it. Alright! =D and yes, you were the person who's link I followed to that forum post lol. You're right, CeilingCat, I am still a new deconvert I guess, so right now this freedom and these feelings and ideas are all very new and exciting and I just wanna share the good news! However, it is absolutely a waste of time unless it actually gets someone thinking, That's the problem though. I thought that i could make a difference and get someone thinking. But the problem is, is that these people don't want to think. If you start making sense then they either think satan is influencing you to try and deconvert them or they just shut the conversation down as quickly as possible. I wish you all the luck in the world though. -peace Well, I think it DOES make a difference. Obviously the secular world is growing, the draining part that makes it difficult to go on is that you will never see it when someone does ghost some forum posts or listens in on a conversation or watches a debate you post on youtube. So I don't think it's not worth doing entirely, maybe just with realistic expectations and an effort to have conversations more like the one Penguin described, rather than actual debates. Thanks for the luck and peace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 If you're a masochist who enjoys learning and you're there for a purpose, I say go for it. Alright! =D and yes, you were the person who's link I followed to that forum post lol. Well then you saw how uppity I can get. There would've been more swearing if they allowed it, too. Still, I consider it beneficial, because it will hopefully cause people to think. If you decide to join Christianforums.com, let me know and I'll keep up with you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 There is no answer to this. You must do as your see fit. But I have a sneaking suspicion you will not be active on a Christian forum for very long. You may prove me wrong, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedEdition Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 If you're a masochist who enjoys learning and you're there for a purpose, I say go for it. Alright! =D and yes, you were the person who's link I followed to that forum post lol. Well then you saw how uppity I can get. There would've been more swearing if they allowed it, too. Still, I consider it beneficial, because it will hopefully cause people to think. If you decide to join Christianforums.com, let me know and I'll keep up with you there. I completed my account, see you there! There is no answer to this. You must do as your see fit. But I have a sneaking suspicion you will not be active on a Christian forum for very long. You may prove me wrong, of course. Pfft, you're probably right! But hell, I have some free time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ah, yes, you'll have to wait until they "approve you." Then I'll be able to add you as a friend. Should take a day or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedEdition Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ah, yes, you'll have to wait until they "approve you." Then I'll be able to add you as a friend. Should take a day or so. Gotta make sure there's no cuss words in the usernames! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ah, yes, you'll have to wait until they "approve you." Then I'll be able to add you as a friend. Should take a day or so. Gotta make sure there's no cuss words in the usernames! Well they screwed up there. There's a lot of people with "Christ" in their usernames over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimitedEdition Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ah, yes, you'll have to wait until they "approve you." Then I'll be able to add you as a friend. Should take a day or so. Gotta make sure there's no cuss words in the usernames! Well they screwed up there. There's a lot of people with "Christ" in their usernames over there. Bawhahahahaha! Good one. We should get a bunch of members to all join at once then pretend we don't know each other so that they think the devil is trying to ruin their forums nah, that'd be bad Lol. I'm kidding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ah, yes, you'll have to wait until they "approve you." Then I'll be able to add you as a friend. Should take a day or so. Gotta make sure there's no cuss words in the usernames! Well they screwed up there. There's a lot of people with "Christ" in their usernames over there. Bawhahahahaha! Good one. We should get a bunch of members to all join at once then pretend we don't know each other so that they think the devil is trying to ruin their forums nah, that'd be bad Lol. I'm kidding. We don't do forum wars. Anyway I don't know that you hope to gain from it. Christians simply stick to the script and convince themselves they have won. Would you play chess with a pigeon? Yes, I do debate all the Christians in the den but that is because I enjoy swatting down the ideas that I was not allowed to question as a child. And here at ex-C I don't get my account deleted for simply being smarter than the Bible. If I tried that in a Christian forum they would erase all traces of me. Prepare to be drowned out by a thousand "You waz never a real Christian" and ten thousand "Ya gotz to take it on faith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 And how long you last often depends on their perception of you. If they don't like you, poof! no more access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Debating the religious is a waste of time. They do not hold to debate convention and through "faith" can whip out any nonsense to justify their position. It ultimately comes down to "I think it therefore it is". Someone smarter than myself may have a counter to that but it still would not be convincing to the thoroughly assimilated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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