Asimov Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 You scream “freedom” ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invictus1967 Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 Bruce, If you are going to say I strayed off topic, please remind me of the topic and just how my posts were not relevant. This just smacks of censorship and if it had been done on a Christian website you guys would be going ape right now screaming “You can’t handle the truth” or some other movie line you have taken a fancy to. I am simply asking you to examine the title for this thread, the opening posts, and tell me where I went off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 Bruce, If you are going to say I strayed off topic, please remind me of the topic and just how my posts were not relevant. This just smacks of censorship and if it had been done on a Christian website you guys would be going ape right now screaming “You can’t handle the truth” or some other movie line you have taken a fancy to. I am simply asking you to examine the title for this thread, the opening posts, and tell me where I went off topic. invictus, I made a thread specially for you man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgaris Prime Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 SOIL: If that avatar is you, then I must say you look like the archetypal grandfather. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted May 6, 2005 Author Share Posted May 6, 2005 Wow, I guess I must have missed all the commotion! Sorry invictus1967, I'm not really sure what you were talking about - but I suspect your comments have been preserved (at a different location maybe) -- maybe Bruce (or whoever moved them) - can provide a link to their new location - and put that link here in this thread. I wasn't trying to get any particular type of discussion going really. I just thought I would let people know the types of things that "mean ole' Christians" like myself <grin, I'm just kidding> sometimes say to the innocent grandkids who sometimes like to hang with us. There have been some good thoughtful responses - and I hope to find some time this weekend to respond. I do understand that the idea that some intelligent being must be responsible for the complexity of "real" human beings does not - in an of itself - need to point singularly at the God who we Christians claim to worship. I didn't really desire (or need) to get into all that with my young grandson at that point in time, I was just trying to be honest with him, and provide an answer to his question in a way I thought his mind was ready to deal with. I suspect his question probably was in some way related to the concept of Santa Clause (as oberon appropriately speculated). Zach - your question is a good one - and I have heard about evolutionary theory myself - yet my response is still applicable to my mind even at this point in my life. Maybe I will read some of the other threads about evolution which have been recently started (and have been going on for awhile) - and respond more. I like to listen to (and sometimes read - but I find reading harder to do - (because it takes so much exclusive time for me to read) - things Peter Kreeft has said about the "Is God Real?" question. (I think I have provided the above link in the past - I think it is definitely worth listening to - for anyone who hangs out around here much). -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted May 6, 2005 Author Share Posted May 6, 2005 SOIL: If that avatar is you, then I must say you look like the archetypal grandfather. Just a thought. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> VP, Well, it is "me" the way I looked last fall, actually more of my hairs are grey now. -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 . . . . Well, none of us are smart enough to know how to make ourselves. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not to brag, but I know how to create humans. A sexually developed male and female (-typically between the ages of 15 and 50 or so) can get together and copulate. It involves use of certain sex organs, but I'll not get too graphic at this time... If the reproduction systems of both are in working order, and the female is ovulating, then as the result of this act is that another human will most likely be created. It takes about 9 months for the whole thing to happen, and sometimes they have to try a few times, but it really does work. I can prove it to you if you like. I just need a female volunteer. You can pray against it happening all you want, but it won't make a difference. It's not a mystical thing, it's biology. We could document the whole thing, including medical tests and video. I was smart enough to create three of them when I was younger-- I just had to use my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 VP, Well, it is "me" the way I looked last fall, actually more of my hairs are grey now. -Dennis SOIL, you look like a great guy, and a great gramps. I don't see the relevence about the statement "we can't make ourselves" though, and how it is a proof for God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 I believe there is a higher being, but I don't believe in forcing children to believe before they have gained enough knowledge to tell reality from fantasy. I would have asked the kid what he thought, and why, and gave an honest reply: We can't know for sure if god is real, and we may never know if god is real, but it's okay if you think he is, and it's okay if you don't. If it was my kid, I would have made sure that he understood I loved him, either way. That is what counts, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invictus1967 Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Maybe we should all let our children raise themselves. Just tell them you love them and hope for the best. ----------------------------------- Child: Is God real? Parent: You make up your own mind Child: Is it wrong to steal? Parent: You make up your own mind Child: What good are you? Parent: I am only here to supply groceries, a roof, and love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 So you think teaching children about God and Jesus is all there is to raising children? Yes, I want them to make up their mind in the long run. The LAST thing I want them to become is mindless drones who rely on someone else's opinion. But that doesn't mean I won't share with them why I think stealing is wrong. I want my children to know ABOUT religion and make EDUCATED decisions about what to do about it. No matter how much you like to think so, Christianity does NOT have ANY monopoly on morality. I want them to be good people because it is for the benefit of everyone, and for logical reasons, NOT because some old dead white men wrote something in some old book. Oh, and yes, I would rather have my children raise themselves before I EVER let a hardcore religious fundamentalist raise them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Maybe we should all let our children raise themselves. Just tell them you love them and hope for the best. ----------------------------------- Child: Is God real? Parent: You make up your own mind Child: Is it wrong to steal? Parent: You make up your own mind Child: What good are you? Parent: I am only here to supply groceries, a roof, and love Child Invictus: Am I a moron? Parent: Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Maybe we should all let our children raise themselves. Just tell them you love them and hope for the best. ----------------------------------- Child: Is God real? Parent: You make up your own mind Child: Is it wrong to steal? Parent: You make up your own mind Child: What good are you? Parent: I am only here to supply groceries, a roof, and love <<<Conversation between Invictus and his parents when he was a child>>> Invictus: Is God real? Parent: HOW DARE YOU ASK SUCH A QUESTION?!? YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY FOR DOUBTING THE EXISTENCE OF GOD! AWAY FROM ME YE WORKER OF INIQUITY!!! Invictus: Is it wrong to steal? Parent: ARE YOU KIDDING ME? OF COURSE IT'S WRONG TO STEAL! IF YOU STEAL, YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY! AWAY FROM ME YE QUESTIONER!!! Invictus: What good are you? Parent: WELL... IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S TIME FOR ME TO PRACTICE PSALM 137:9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 <<<Conversation between Invictus and his parents when he was a child>>> Invictus: Is God real? Parent: HOW DARE YOU ASK SUCH A QUESTION?!? YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY FOR DOUBTING THE EXISTENCE OF GOD! AWAY FROM ME YE WORKER OF INIQUITY!!! Invictus: Is it wrong to steal? Parent: ARE YOU KIDDING ME? OF COURSE IT'S WRONG TO STEAL! IF YOU STEAL, YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY! AWAY FROM ME YE QUESTIONER!!! Invictus: What good are you? Parent: WELL... IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S TIME FOR ME TO PRACTICE PSALM 137:9 Those silly parents, throwing pearls before swine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Well, Johnie, Are your Mom and Dad real? Am I and Nanna real? You know how we say God made people? Well, none of us are smart enough to know how to make ourselves. So, since we are real, I guess God must be real too. -Dennis But Papaw, who was smart enough to make God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 But Papaw, who was smart enough to make God? *SMACK* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invictus1967 Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 You folks are too funny. You miss the point entirely. I wasn’t saying it is our responsibility as parents is to “brain wash” our children. However, I was saying it is more than simply providing food and shelter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 You folks are too funny. You miss the point entirely. I wasn’t saying it is our responsibility as parents is to “brain wash” our children. However, I was saying it is more than simply providing food and shelter. Well then, if you were just saying that, then I have to agree with you. I don't know what you were implying here though... Maybe we should all let our children raise themselves. Just tell them you love them and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Well then, if you were just saying that, then I have to agree with you.I don't know what you were implying here though... Maybe we should all let our children raise themselves. Just tell them you love them and hope for the best. Oh that's just simple Christian reasoning. They equate Biblegod with morals. And if you aren't going to back up Biblegod, why bother guiding your kid to morality and ethics? To Christians you can't have one without the other. Typical all or nothing mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Maybe we should all let our children raise themselves. Just tell them you love them and hope for the best. Jeez Louise, nobody is suggesting that. I am only saying that being honest is best, and letting the kids know that they are loved no matter what, is what counts. Not like my mother, who threw a hissy fit when I was about 5 or 6 and suggested that maybe the Bible stories aren't real. Of course, then I was promptly brainwashed. Argh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticjoe Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Sfs, Given the fact that you (yourself) have already been made, I understand that. However, I'm not convinced (even with "a volunteer"), that the two of you could first make yourselves, before proceeding to "make a person". Fortunately, I was able to go ahead and get to sleep, because my grandson didn't respond with the same follow up comment (though I certainly understand - and appreciate - your comment, and I have thought along the same lines myself). -Dennis <{POST_SNAPBACK}> SOIL, if I may paraphrase your argument, it seems to go like this: "Since you're not smart enough to create yourself, God must have done it." I know I'm not smart enough to create myself, but my parents were smart enough to create me. All my ancestors back to my first proto-life ancestors were smart enough to create the next generation. P.S. This thread is obviously leading toward arguments about evolution and/or abiogenesis. If you have arguments against these, you may want to start a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 I know I'm not smart enough to create myself, but my parents were smart enough to create me. All my ancestors back to my first proto-life ancestors were smart enough to create the next generation. Agree totally. Unfortunately, procreation is not one of those things that requires brains. If it were, we'd probably have a few less fundies in the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Well, Johnie, Well, none of us are smart enough to know how to make ourselves. -Dennis Dennis Your mistake is supposing conscious knowhow is the epitime of "knowlege" instead of an emergent property of organized matter. You do know how to make yourself, because you did. Just because the knowledge is stored in your genetic makeup and not your conscious doesn't mean you don't know how to organize matter into yourself. In fact if you had not done so you wouldn't be conscious enough to make such a silly statement, or write software. The organization of matter proceeds consciousness, there are no real examples of the reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 You folks are too funny. You miss the point entirely. I wasn’t saying it is our responsibility as parents is to “brain wash” our children. However, I was saying it is more than simply providing food and shelter. I agree. One of my responsibities would be to try to protect them from being infected by Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted May 8, 2005 Author Share Posted May 8, 2005 ...The organization of matter proceeds consciousness, there are no real examples of the reverse. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What is ..... a rock? -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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