Finding A New Niche

[Questions]

I deconverted a bit over a year ago and am finally at peace about it and even happy about it.  When I think there is no boogy man in the sky watching and judging me, it is a wonderfully freeing feeling.  The problem is that I was a Christian for 40 years.  I may no longer believe, but I am still culturally a Christian.  I like celebrating Christmas and Easter.  I only have happy childhood memories of them and church, but I have since quit attending church.  It seemed boring and silly once I no longer believed.    My views and beliefs don't line up with most of the Christians I know, but I still get offended and defensive if people say bad things about Christianity.  I think the religion is silly myself, but I keep finding myself defending it.  I don't fit in with the non-Christians, it's like I'm from another country - I grew up listening to different music and watching different movies, am not comfortable watching Magic Mike for ladies night out, ect.  But I certainly don't fit in with the Christians anymore.  I actually got kicked out of a Bible study group for not liking the book they were reading and having the audacity to say so.  I'm not doing very well in the meet-up groups I've joined either.  I am a social liberal, a fiscal conservative, a registered independent, and a culturally christian atheist.  There is something about me for everyone to disagree with or to hate.  I bite my tongue in every group until I can't take it anymore and have an admittedly somewhat rude outburst in frustration and then they all hate me.  I am not handling trying to find a new social group well to replace the fellowship I used to have in the church.  This is frustrating and demoralizing to me, because I never used to have trouble making friends before I deconverted.  I'm really not a jerk, but I constantly feel like one now, because everyone is always offended at me for one reason or another.  I have become an octagon-shaped peg or something, and now fit with neither the round pegs nor the square ones.  Anyone else have this trouble when they deconverted?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I don't share my views on important issues like religion or politics with most of my friends.  It has to be a pretty close, longstanding friendship for me to risk revealing my opinions about controversial subjects.  For example, several of my friends believe chiropractic works, or that supernatural spiritual forces are all around us, or that we shouldn't get involved in any conflict in the Middle East and we're not really under threat from terrorists.  I don't tell them I disagree with them because the friendship means more to me than having the same views on some things.  If I insisted on agreeing with people about everything, I would have no friends at all.  I celebrate what I have in common with them.

[wyson]

I couldn't make friends when I first deconverted also. After many years, I found that it was due to self esteem issues brought on by Christianity esp. doctrine of original sin which I wholeheartly used to believe. If I couldn't accept myself, how could I acknowledge others acceptance of me?

Can you be more detailed? What is it that they said and what did you blurt out? Why do you think you said what you did?

One thing I have found is that people can only accept parts of you, that no one can validate you fully like a personal god. This was super hard for me to give up because my relationship with god was the main one in my life, front and centre and my relationships with people were satellite to this.

Overtime I have had to learn to compromise. My ex-christian side remains hidden from all my friends (apart from simple comments like "giving up religion was the hardest thing I have done")despite its huge significance to my life, simply because it is beyond all their comprehensions. To bang on and on about something that someone can't understand or has no interest is isn't really a sociable way to behave.

And I found people generally arent interested in me per se, beyond their own agendas. Of course there is some leeway and accommodation, but it is nowhere near the sort of attention an omnipotent, ever loving god you imagine lavishes on you as a believer.

Another thing I found was that the great majority of people aren't interested in the truth beyond what makes them happy. As a Christian I used to think it was right to override feelings when it conflicted with the Truth because well, people including myself are miserable sinners and the Bible / God / the Church knows better. In the real world, this is a surefire way for getting people who don't share your values to hate you. I eventually learned that acknowledging their feelings was far more appropriate, and listening to different perspectives became a way of widening my own narrow horizons derived from Christianity.

As you can probably tell, my faith left me somewhat socially immature and I had to work to develop myself and my social skills. I wonder if that is something you are experiencing now?  

[wyson]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you could be better off casting the net wide and far and making lots of "little" relationships that satisfy different aspects of your needs rather than trying to find a ready made set of people or group. This is something the church is actually really good at. There are secular churches / atheist assemblies also, although I have never tried these.

I found it was effective to join clubs / volunteer in charities based on my interests where you are meeting / working with people on common ground.

I also attended some communications skills and presentation skills courses (where you can understand how you come over to people) and read some books about developing interpersonal skills, although I found the real key was to get my self esteem in order first.

Unfortunately, although its easy for the faith / belief in the supernatural aspects to go away, all the subconcious programming / values are a lot harder to reverse. Its also something I had to work on over many years.  Its got to the point now where a Christian friend recently told me she thought I was only 10% Christian!  That really made me laugh.  Lol.

[Geezer]

I don't really have anything new to add to what has been posted. I was a 40 year Christian too, Deacon, Elder, Bible School teacher. I saw the contradictions and inconsistencies that are replete in the bible for years and ignored them until I couldn't ignore them anymore.

 

I eventually became motived to study Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and the Mormon religion from a historical critical perspective. I invested about three or four years in my study and research. I focused mostly on Christianity. It didn't take long for me to become convinced that all religions are man made.

 

I consider Christianity to be a cult because they exhibit so many cult like characteristics. I was a member of the Church of Christ and they disfellowship erring members, so when I left our social structure was destroyed. That was ten years ago.

 

The old saying time heals all wounds exhibits elements of truth. It took a few years but eventually I lost interest in debating and arguing religion with believers and then I eventually just lost interest in religion period. I haven't been inside a church in quite some time and I don't miss it. Christmas and Easter are irrelevant to me now.

 

My wife hangs on to elements of her faith. We don't do church but she does attend a weekly interdenominational bible study. She no longer believes the bible is true in any literal or historic sense, but she wants to believe there is a God or something more. I'm okay with that because we don't discuss religion. I don't think my wife actually believes in God anymore but she needs some kind of spiritual element in her life even if she can't define what that might be and I'm okay with that.

 

Like many others I tried liberal forms of Christianity but that didn't work. If the bible isn't true, and history confirms that it isn't, then what's the point? I gave Deism a try in an attempt to find some form of spirituality but that didn't work either. My default position became becoming agnostic. When asked I simply say I'm not religious. That apparently is a socially acceptable alternative that doesn't threaten or challenge anyone.

 

As others have noted, it gets better with the passing of time.

[Guest Furball]

  My views and beliefs don't line up with most of the Christians I know, but I still get offended and defensive if people say bad things about Christianity. 

I have actually gotten into a few debates/arguments on here because certain people come on this site which is called Ex-Christian, and say that they are ex-christians, then defend christianity and it's god/doctrine when someone rants against it. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. The reason i am one of the few people who go into the rants section and really lays into christianity, saying bad things etc, is because it did real psychological damage to me for over 13 years. Not everyones christian experience is bad, so they cannot understand when someone like me comes along and continues to rip into it. I myself need to be humble and realize that not everyone's christian experience is bad and that they left for simple reasons, but i also expect others to try and realize that some of us were truly affected by it,and being in/leaving that religion was a very traumatic experience. 

 

It just doesn't make sense to me, how any one can claim to be an ex christian, come on an ex christian website, then defend christianity all the while claiming to not believe in it anymore. 

 

<sighs>

[wyson]

Pretty harsh Ceilingcat!  I was in a similar position to the op Questions when I first deconverted.  The supernatural side I felt was absurd and this was easy to drop.  I still thought however that the Bible was a depository of wisdom and the values something good to live by.  It was only when I found my suffering and alienation from the world increase that I slowly realised that it all of it was rotten and only then could I see and acknowledge the damage it had done to me.  This took the best part of 10 years.  The op Questions is just starting her de-conversion experience.  A little patience would be in order!

[mymistake]

I run into the same problem with my mother.  Whenever I open my mouth it leads to trouble.  Any opinion I have is going to rub her the wrong way.  So when I visit I'm just suppose to smile quietly while she talks.  Then when she tells me of her latest plan for sabotaging her life I am suppose to smile and try not to feel guilty for letting her do that to herself.  I'm glad she gave me life but she will never be my friend.

 

I wind up with a bunch of friends from get togethers.  They will be husbands of my wife's friends or fathers of my kid's friends.  We mostly make small talk and I'm grateful.  Whenever the conversation turns fundie (very rare thankfully) I just put on a poker face.  It would be nice to have a close friend who agreed with all of my major values but I can get by without that.

[Guest Furball]

You read my reply wrong. I wasn't bashing the OP at all. I used one of the Op's statements to make a general statement, not a personal one. I was simply stating that in the past i have come across people who claim to be ex christian then defend xtianity. If you actually take the time to read my reply, i admitted that i need to humble myself and understand that others have not had the same experiences that i have had. I figured someone would take what i said out of context as a personal assault on the op, which it wasn't. It was meant as a general statement.

[Guest Furball]

Pretty harsh Ceilingcat!  I was in a similar position to the op Questions when I first deconverted.  The supernatural side I felt was absurd and this was easy to drop.  I still thought however that the Bible was a depository of wisdom and the values something good to live by.  It was only when I found my suffering and alienation from the world increase that I slowly realised that it all of it was rotten and only then could I see and acknowledge the damage it had done to me.  This took the best part of 10 years.  The op Questions is just starting her de-conversion experience.  A little patience would be in order!

First of all, relax. People can read into posts the wrong way, it's happened to me many times. Second of all, i pm'd the mod of this forum, i let her know that you think i was "harsh" - and that if she feels the same that i would delete the post myself.

 

Lastly, i do recommend that you learn to develop some thicker skin like i had to. When i first came on this site, people ripped into me so badly that i was almost in tears and had to be talked out of leaving here for good a handful of times. I was treated harshly when i came on here, since then i have learned to grow thicker skin and allow people the right to express themselves, even if that means they are treating me "harsh." -peace

[wyson]

 

 

Yeah, what you are saying is also pretty valid.    It's just that I have seen many people on this forum (And I was there myself, as were you judging from your post above) are pretty fragile, undergoing huge changes and I thought it better to get the kid gloves on.  

 

Thicker skin took a long time to develop... again this was linked to self esteem and recovery.  When people were "direct" with me when I was depressed / confused / in the thick of deconversion it just added to my feelings that there was something wrong with me.  The emotional pain this brought on wasn't very nice and more importantly wasn't helpful.  An understanding of where I was, acknowledgement that it was normal and options / thoughts about ways to progress did.  As Marlene Winell would say, you have to start nurturing your inner child! 

 

However, I suppose judgements about what's harsh or not  is a job for the mods and seeing that they haven't taken your posts down, well that says it all!

[Questions]

Thanks everyone, and I didn't think ceilingcat was harsh, I get what you mean.  I'm actually puzzled as to why I keep defending Christianity from attacks that I feel are unfair and based on untrue statements about the faith.  Like when people confuse Judaism with Christianity or think that all Christians are catholic and follow what the pope says.  I wonder why I still care.  I guess the reason I do that is because I had positive childhood experiences with the church and they are stepping on my nostalgia.  I am not bothered by criticisms of the faith that are based in fact, however.  Maybe it's because I feel loyal to the group I was raised with, like many people do with hometown football teams, even when their team loses all the time.  

Anyway, one of you said, "my faith left me somewhat socially immature and I had to work to develop myself and my social skills."  I have found that to be a very true statement.  Like, embarrassingly true.  I guess I never had to work at relationships before, because despite moving a lot growing up, I always had a group via the church that was all but required to accept me and at least pretend to be nice to me.  Being a member of the youth group meant I always had others to hang out with without requiring an invitation.  So I never had to earn that invitation by actually making friends.  The same for ladies bible studies.  And if you did offend someone they were required to turn the other cheek and forgive you.  I am also struggling because in youth groups and bible studies everyone would confess their sins and struggles.  In other words, the conversations would be VERY personal and deep, even though you had just met the people.  So to me that's what friendships are.  So now with non-Christians who just want to chat about the weather, what stunt Kanye West pulled lately, and their favorite 80's tv show, it feels like they are just acquaintances and not real friends because they don't/won't/can't talk about anything meaningful.  I guess the church established a false or forced level of intimacy by which I now measure relationships.    I don't expect or require others to agree with me, I never have, that's not the problem.  I guess my impatience is the problem.  I am going to have to learn how to build relationships more gradually.

[wyson]

You are on the right track.  Direct self revelation in the majority of social contexts will only serve to make people feel self concious and generally, the majority don't like to feel this way.

 

I also went through a "deep" conversations phase when I deconverted.  As one persons deep is another persons crazy, it didn't go down so well, especially at work!  My friends kept chiding me, saying "My god, you have to stick to work topics at work!  They don't give a shit about what you believe in!"  

 

It caused a lot of embarrassment and many people didn't want to work with me.  Why would they... they are working hard to get things done, and the last thing they need during their coffee break is to deal with someone's inappropriate self disclosure, or questions about their deepest beliefs.

 

Now like everyone else, I go for banter and humour!

[Guest Furball]

 

 

 

However, I suppose judgements about what's harsh or not  is a job for the mods and seeing that they haven't taken your posts down, well that says it all!

 

Right or wrong, either way i apologise. Welcome to Ex-C wyson.

[Guest Furball]

Thanks everyone, and I didn't think ceilingcat was harsh, I get what you mean.  

Thanks for not getting mad or taking what i said the wrong way. Still, i apologise to you Questions if you were offended. Welcome to Ex-C and i look forward to your posts. -peace

[DayLight]

I deconverted a bit over a year ago and am finally at peace about it and even happy about it.  When I think there is no boogy man in the sky watching and judging me, it is a wonderfully freeing feeling.  The problem is that I was a Christian for 40 years.  I may no longer believe, but I am still culturally a Christian.  I like celebrating Christmas and Easter.  I only have happy childhood memories of them and church, but I have since quit attending church.  It seemed boring and silly once I no longer believed.    My views and beliefs don't line up with most of the Christians I know, but I still get offended and defensive if people say bad things about Christianity.  I think the religion is silly myself, but I keep finding myself defending it.  I don't fit in with the non-Christians, it's like I'm from another country - I grew up listening to different music and watching different movies, am not comfortable watching Magic Mike for ladies night out, ect.  But I certainly don't fit in with the Christians anymore.  I actually got kicked out of a Bible study group for not liking the book they were reading and having the audacity to say so.  I'm not doing very well in the meet-up groups I've joined either.  I am a social liberal, a fiscal conservative, a registered independent, and a culturally christian atheist.  There is something about me for everyone to disagree with or to hate.  I bite my tongue in every group until I can't take it anymore and have an admittedly somewhat rude outburst in frustration and then they all hate me.  I am not handling trying to find a new social group well to replace the fellowship I used to have in the church.  This is frustrating and demoralizing to me, because I never used to have trouble making friends before I deconverted.  I'm really not a jerk, but I constantly feel like one now, because everyone is always offended at me for one reason or another.  I have become an octagon-shaped peg or something, and now fit with neither the round pegs nor the square ones.  Anyone else have this trouble when they deconverted?

 I have trouble fitting in also. 

 

I heard stories about people keeping secrets.  Now it's my turn.   My aunt is very religious and we have a good time, but I have to hide the fact that I am not a Christian anymore. (Because  I know it would make her feel bad if she knew and she would start fasting and praying on my behalf and I don't want that.)  

 

I was also thinking of very wise people and how they usually can't fully interact with their peers because most are not as wise (they must be lonely).   But they do interact at least partly. 

 

So it's like you would have to find common ground and only focus on that.

 

It's not as fulfilling when you can't express your thoughts fully, but what's the alternative? At least I can express my thoughts on forums.

 

About you defending Christianity - some people value being precise.  And they would defend anything just to keep information be accurate (it's like it's their passion or calling or a quirk).     Misinformation is not a good thing.  So someone has to set things straight...

[Ellinas]

I suppose, in a sense, I have the opposite issue.

 

I was a Christian but never really bought into its' culture.  As a child I had ideas that were partially formed (or even less completely formed) than those I hold now.  Christianity was, ultimately, an interlude where I was dishonest with myself and eventually I have reverted to where I seem to belong.

 

Yes, I give Christmas presents and Easter eggs at those times of year.  That is just to keep the peace.  It is otherwise meaningless.

 

But I can see how those whose cultural basis is strongly rooted in Christianity (and I mean something that goes beyond just paying lip-service to the calendar) ay find it difficult to let go.  Te trick, perhaps, is to see that the culture and the beliefs are, actually, distinct.