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Goodbye Jesus

No More Kid Gloves


Checkmate

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It's about NOT being afraid to speak about our unbelief. SOME people are having a problem in this area because they fear what it will do to the Christian. And I say that for the MOST part, any Christian who is TOUGH enough to desire this conversation can handle ANYTHING we can dish out.

 

And YES, they ARE interested in what we say. Why else would they ask us for what we think?

 

1.) I know you are merely recommending advocacy.

 

2.) I know that you are not on a crusade to convert christians.

 

3.) I understand that a lot of atheists need to do this for themselves.

 

I am pointing out what I have seen most atheists come to see and believe after

they gain all of the self-confidence and dignity or whatever from advocating atheism. It's great to do it for your own emotional reasons, but that is from hearing oneself talk. I am pointing out what 35 years of experience in doing this has shown me what to expect from the people spoken to. Which is nice to know for those bringing this up for the first time with others.

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Okay, this from 43 years of being a public infidel:

 

I've found that, as with almost every other volatile topic, different people and situations call for different packaging of the truth of my non-belief. Sometimes the thing said to or asked of me is "borderline intrusive" with no real malice or curiosity, and I'll skirt it.

 

Sometimes all that's called for is, "Oh, I'm gathering you weren't aware that I'm an atheist." Usually this is enough. Most people see this as a polite opening (or closing) of what's under discussion and they change the topic.

 

Sometimes, when I'm subsumed as a Christian, which does piss me off, I'll use the "Oh, I'm gathering..." line, which then leads to more questioning, which will generally lead to my saying succinct things in response -- "I see Christianity as being in opposition to my leading a healthy, rational life." If I remember to, I use "I" statements and avoid direct attack on the religion. When I forget to do this, things get pretty emotional pretty quickly.

 

Once, when I was in the hospital, I awoke from drowsiness to see a priest sitting by my bedside. "Hi," I said, "are you here for spiritual reasons?" He sort of stammered and smiled. "You're out of luck," I said, "I'm an atheist. But don't be afraid. I'm an affable atheist." So we talked about the weather for two minutes and he left.

 

I don't think most situations call for a diatribe. I support the direct, simple and succinct approach. Probably I haven't made a dent in anyone's beliefs with what I've said, but the important thing, for me, is not to be subsumed into a category which is definitely antithetical to who I am. I do believe that if enough such semi-pleasant encounters with affable unbelievers occur in the life of a Christian, s/he will at the very least do a little head-scratching, but this isn't my goal. It would just be a nice side-effect.

 

Interesting, too, is how often my announcing myself as an atheist when it seems appropriate in a non-confrontational context will elicit from another person(s) that they, too, are not believers. At those times, there's usually relief on both sides and an instant kind of bond... very worth my moment of truth.

 

There are no longer any family members or close friends to be concerned about confronting, because by now, everyone knows. And everyone knows how far to go with me for their own comfort. This is the beautiful thing about time.

 

+++++++++++++++++++

 

IBF,

 

This is terribly sad about your nephew. I sympathize. The problem is compounded when we're dealing with the child of parents who've made a "Christian decision" for the child. Personally, I think we have no right to confront the child directly, but we can certainly think about how far we want to go in informing the parents of the level and nature of our distress.

 

I have to face this re: my grandchildren. My daughter definitely knows where I stand, but this hasn't changed the rearing of the kids one iota. Still, should the time ever arise that they come to me, as grown-ups, concerning these issues, I know I'll be able to say to my grandchildren that I stood up for what I thought was right treatment for them. I would hope that would make a difference to them.

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IBF,

 

This is terribly sad about your nephew. I sympathize. The problem is compounded when we're dealing with the child of parents who've made a "Christian decision" for the child. Personally, I think we have no right to confront the child directly, but we can certainly think about how far we want to go in informing the parents of the level and nature of our distress.

 

Pitchu, thank you for your advice; as it stands now, I have not said a word about my concerns regarding my nephew’s two-year Mormon Mission. If my nephew came to me for advice I would gladly give it, but that is not a likely thing to happen given our sporadic relationship over the years. During his mission he will be heavily monitored and will not even be allowed any outside contact with family members except for two very short calls a year on Christmas and Mother’s Day. My research shows that these poor kids often suffer with depression and an alarming suicide rate upon return.

 

Mr. Grinch, as you can see I have adopted a double standard here and it bothers me. During my teens it was not uncommon for the parents of my friends to ask me about my religion and if I wanted to attend church with them. Yet I still find it unacceptable for me to discuss my concerns with my own nephew. If I was a parent I don’t think I would allow myself the same freedom to discuss my lack of faith with the friends of my own kids. It seems I have been conditioned to think that theists are allowed far more freedom than me.

 

IBF

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Why should we have to be evangelical non-Christians, just because the Christian meme drives people to preach? I don't see it as necessary to broadcast my religious views. However, if some fundie is going to start preaching to me, I will be assertive and say "I'm not interested, leave me alone." If they persist in preaching, I will just walk away.

 

However, I don't see the need to tell every single one of my family members. If they find out, I'll be honest. But, IMHO the need to be evangelical is still a habit from the Christian meme, not the non-Christian one. I think religious views should be a private thing. I see no reason why I should have to wear a T-shirt that says, "I'm agnostic! You should deconvert too!" if I don't feel like it.

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It's a fine line, perhaps, between not being afraid to explain yourself if and when the situation calls for it and being just another pain in the ass about your religious views. One of the things that helped draw me to Deism is that Deism, like most other non-xian systems, doesn't have worldwide evangelization as a core tenet. I don't have to be on a 24/7 personal crusade to spread my religious views to every single human soul I should encounter, and can focus on living my life and actually enjoying it for once.

 

There's no need for freethinkers to go on holy wars to convince every single fundy they know of how wrong they are. It's not as if there is an eternal torture chamber waiting for us if we refuse to do so. But it is equally important to be strong enough to explain why we believe as we do - if and when the situation calls for it. If someone asks about your views, you should be able to explain it. After all, you may plant a nice little seed of doubt that will save one more person from fundy nonsense. Just don't feel the need to go on a worldwide crusade to do it - unless you are the sort who can really work a crowd and speak in public well, etc. Then who knows - a Deist or Agnostic Billy Graham could be a big help in waking others up.

 

Either way, just live youe life and live it nobly. All else is unecessary.

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There are points where I know letting my full beliefs show, and well, being blunt, would start a needless fight. Sometimes people have to be hit with a clue-by-four, but for others, I have no desire to cause them extra stress or to light off a battle without a very good reason.

 

Sometimes the time just seems wrong to me, and other times there seems to be no good reason to do so.

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I didn't think this thread was about evangelizing. I thought it was about refusing to slink away. Two very different things.

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I didn't think this thread was about evangelizing. I thought it was about refusing to slink away. Two very different things.

Exactly right, Pitchu, and thank you for reminding everyone of this.

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I actually have a shirt that says, "RELIGION IS POISON" on the front and "THINKING IS THE ANTIDOTE" on the back that garners a lot of response wherever I wear it.

 

Some people avoid me ("weak" Christians), some people confront me ("strong" Christians), some people just approach me and ask about it (those who have taken the first tentative steps towards freethinking), and some people compliment me (atheists, humanists, other non-believers).

 

I have another shirt that says, "Fuck Christianity" that doesn't have the same range of responses that the less offensive shirt has.

 

I only wear that one when I'm feeling particularly argumentative.

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I told a couple of friends when I was still pretty angry - one of them being my own hubby, and I kind of steamrollered him along the way to his own deconversion, something I now regret.

May I ask why? What is it that you regret, the approach you took, or that he deconverted because of it?

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I actually have a shirt that says, "RELIGION IS POISON" on the front and "THINKING IS THE ANTIDOTE" on the back that garners a lot of response wherever I wear it.

 

Some people avoid me ("weak" Christians), some people confront me ("strong" Christians), some people just approach me and ask about it (those who have taken the first tentative steps towards freethinking), and some people compliment me (atheists, humanists, other non-believers).

 

 

Hum? :scratch: I could argue the exact opposite may be happening. (At least is some cases) I know that during my short fundy period I was a loud-mouthed xtian asshole; it helped me to bolster a very weak faith. :shrug:

 

IBF

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I told a couple of friends when I was still pretty angry - one of them being my own hubby, and I kind of steamrollered him along the way to his own deconversion, something I now regret.

May I ask why? What is it that you regret, the approach you took, or that he deconverted because of it?

 

Sure - I regret the approach I took because I think it affected the way he deconverted. The rug was pulled from under him - I didn't allow him the time he needed to reach his own conclusions at his own pace I guess. I think that one of the positives of leaving fundamentalism is that you get to exercise your own thought power again - but what I was saying while he was searching was 'look - its obvious -it's this way'. This is something that I would now describe as an 'echo of fundamentalism' in my behaviour. I thought I'd discovered another path - and once again it was THE path! :rolleyes:

 

It was further complicated by the fact that at this stage of my questioning I decided that meant questioning EVERYTHING - including the basis of my marriage - so I think he felt under some pressure to keep up with me or lose me. Again that smacks of coercion - something I detest and yet something I was guilty of. (I like to maintain that it was a learnt bad behaviour and something that I am now free of ;) )

 

Instead of feeling that he'd made his own journey - I think he felt launched into a quest he was really not sure he wanted. I think he had long periods of resentment and anger with God for 'not existing' and did not experience the 'freedom' in the same way.

 

This is all the worse for the fact that he was not a christian when we met and fell in love and he was possibly steamrollered in the first place!

 

(We are fine now BTW :) )

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