Why was it a Christian-motivated group?

[SOIL]

Sit in front of the computer and brag about the "actual action" of his faith's organizations on the internet to ex-christians?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kay,

 

Interesting the timing of your reply about this. Yesterday evening, I had begun a post to address that same question (concerning what I am good at). One of my daughters phoned and said my grandson had come across a snake in our yard - and he thought is was a "mean kind" (one of the poisonous ones) - so she wanted me to come and decide if it is one I have said that I would kill (if and when we ever find any on the property). So, I didn't finish the post, and quickly scooted over there (to discover it was only a Speckled Kingsnake, which is NOT poisonous! - so we just let it go on about it's business - hopefully including keeping the poisonous snakes away from my grandsons!).

 

I will probably take another crack at my answer to Cerise's excellent question - eventually - but I need to do some much needed work during much of today though.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

But thats what your doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

zfunkman,

 

Perhaps that is what you are hearing, (I am sorry about that, and I admit that is most likely my fault, even though I think there were several motivating factors involved in why I started this thread), I was hoping that some of you folks would be providing me with additional links to other organizations (for instance what Cerise has provided is at least in the direction of what I was wanting to see).

 

(For instance, I located this one recently: Shared Hope)

 

I am burdened about bad things happening to good people.

 

I want to help put a stop to some of it.

 

I want to know who else desires the same thing.

 

I want to see what motivates people to get off THEIR seats (and sometimes get out from behind our computers) and actually do something! (my seat is sadly still on this chair in front of my computer).

 

I have discovered that Cerise is one such person (who has done something!) and I admire her for that.

 

I would like for Cerise and/or any others, to continue to explain to me (either publicly in this thread or privately) what has motivated them (for instance, are there other things besides what Cerise already mentioned in her post about experiencing PAIN ?).

 

I know I should be feeling hurt along with downtrodden people in our world - my mind tells me I should cry with them - but just because I say I think I should do these things - that doesn't provide enough motivation to get me to actually DO them.

 

I feel guilty that I don't really feel much pain for them - I don't cry - either for their plight, or for anything that bothers me personally.

 

I get angry (instead?), but I am not sure who I am really angry with - sometimes I think I may be angry at God - then I am angry at us Christians (who are supposed to be the way God helps such people - but we don't help most of them) - then I am angry only at myself, because I mainly just work at my job and read and type at this site - then I am angry at the perpetrators, and I desire to see justice done, in hopes that other innocent victims will not also be hurt by more perpetrators who see that justice is NOT being done to the ones they see making money and apparently not being punished.

 

I am confused (obviously) - unfortunately at this time - I still don't have the time to elaborate on what I am good at - as that will open up quite a can of worms.

 

But I will try to get around to that eventually.

 

Sorry for rambling on yet again.

 

Hopefully others here will avoid the grief I have felt in my soul - by "doing something" - and then I would appreciate it if you would let me know what it was which provided the needed motivation for you to DO so.

 

-Dennis

[I Broke Free]

I want to see what motivates people to get off THEIR seats (and sometimes get out from behind our computers) and actually do something!  (my seat is sadly still on this chair in front of my computer).

 

 

-Dennis

 

Soil, my seat also remains firmly in place. I only swivel it occasionally, and that is just to get some snacks.

 

I sometimes feel terribly hypocritical about having such passionate fingers at the keyboard, and such lethargic legs of action.

[SOIL]

Soil, my seat also remains firmly in place. I only swivel it occasionally, and that is just to get some snacks.

 

I sometimes feel terribly hypocritical about having such passionate fingers at the keyboard, and such lethargic legs of action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IBF,

 

Thanks for your honesty.

 

(misery loves company!)

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

... What are you good at, Dennis?  What can you do?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise - well - to tell you the truth, I'm not so sure I even want to go there.

 

Actually, that subject has been of great consternation to me during the last few years.

 

I used what I am am good at - to make a big bunch of money - which I (and my family) spent rather foolishly as it has turned out. If I had my life to live over, I would probably develop different skills which I could be "good at" by the time I reach this point in my life.

 

Now I work (doing what I can do) earning just barely enough to pay for the big mortgage (one of the foolish things I did) - and I have been very sad, in some ways, because I don't have much left over (after all the bills are paid each month), to contribute financially in the way I would like, to organizations who are already accomplishing good things.

 

In keeping with the strange way this wacky world works (in these most recent 100 years or so), I have developed a niche skill ("what I can do"), - which is very limited in it's scope - and as such, there is only a need for my highly specialized skills in - in one high tech corner of the bits and bytes world, which unfortunately, is not all that needed by folks who currently try to stop the kinds of injustice I am most concerned about.

 

Now, more specifically - here is the expanded answer to your question about: "What can I do?"

 

I know quite a bit about the innards of a once popular database management system (called IDMS), which runs on big mainframe computers (e. g. "big iron" IBM machines mostly) which are used by governments, banks, universities, and various other big companies (e.g. the kind of organizations who have been basically running the world - since the very early days when computers first become seemingly a "necessity").

 

I am one of the relatively few surviving "dinosaur type" guys (actually back in the early days of computerdom - it was mostly male - coffee addicted, and usually heavy chain smoking guys) who began their/our wage-earning lives by talking to computers with "programs" sometimes stored on punched card decks (carried around in trays and fed into goliath machines - the size of living rooms - locked away in specially air conditioned rooms built on raised floors with air tight doors and equipped with ozone-depleting Halon fire retardant systems).

 

At any rate, (I think God helped me) to earn enough money - programming in mainframe assembler language, and tinkering with the journals/logs (produced by the now old-fashioned network database system) - so I never really had much incentive to keep up with the changing times - and learn to program these fancy little personal computer thingy-a-majiggers.

 

I doubt if many (or any) of the kinds of organizations who try to help victims of acts of injustice, are bringing in enough money to buy (and/or need) a big mainframe computer (and/or use the old database management system I specialize in) - so as to have any need for my niche type of ("what I can do") skills.

 

So - most likely one of the best things I could do to help - might be to work harder and earn more money - and send it to the organization already in place, where it could be used either to hire someone who does already have the skills they need - or in the process of funding various ongoing projects.

 

In order to free up more money to contribute to "the cause", I have considered either significantly reducing the lifestyle our family enjoys (thus freeing up larger portions of my current salary) - or - producing another marketable software product, (and trying to swing yet another sweet royalty deal) and use the new-money to send to help with "the cause". Most likely one and/or both of these things would make the most sense as a way for me to "get more actively involved" in being a part of a solution (instead of continuing to act simply as an outside observer who whines about how bad things are, but - who, at least - mentions that someone else seems to care enough - and is already skilled properly - and uses their talents on the front line, directly trying to help people who are hurting).

 

I should just start small - like my wife tells me - rather than trying to come up with a grand big-bang type of flashy solution - before I step in and get my feet wet. For some reason though, I have historically been looking for the "big challenge" (the one that most others say cannot be accomplished) - and then when I do "step in the water" - I try to make a really big splash. But then, those were the good ol' - early days - back when I had enough energy to burn the candle on both ends .....

 

(Oh - I forgot to include this link when I pointed earlier at the Shared Hope organization's home page.)

 

I'll probably try to write more later about this subject.

 

I have found, in the process of trying to really excel in one niche area - I basically forgot about trying to learn many (if any) common sense, and normal practical skills, (like for instance - learning how to express myself in writing!). So just now - when I am about to turn 50 years of age - I have decided to learn how to do some practical things (like turn a screwdriver, and write a sentence in a way so someone doesn't hurt themselves in the process of trying to read it , etc....).

 

-Dennis

 

< edited in "true confession" : Yes, perhaps a portion of my hitherto secret motivations (for posting at this site) has now been scandalously exposed - I'm using you gals and guys - in my sinister plot to learn how to communicate more effectively by typing my words - hopefully, so I can eventually be able to produce written sentences which regular people can read without flinching! >

[Guest Breakerslion]

If I'm not mistaken, the original question on this thread was, "Why is a Christian organization responsible for the first human-rights interventions in certain places in the world?" The answer is, greed, and prejudice. The Christian organizations are trying to make a point and create a presence by intervening in predominantly non-christian countries. The same abuses happen elsewhere, but they do not provide a toe-hold into a non-christian community. The prejudice is, that the people they are helping are somehow in more dire circumstances than people in more developed countries suffering the same abuses. Got any idea how many Russian women are white-slave trafficed to Isreal? The greed motive comes in because it is a lot easier to raise funds for a mission to East Bumfuck than a mission to South Philly.

 

I will not denegrate any good work done in this world, regardless of the motive, but for an external opinion of where this often leads, check out what the Sri-Lankins are saying about the evangelists in their midst.

[SOIL]

But thats what your doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well - maybe I did start out doing that (at least in some respect anyway).

 

May I ask you to try looking at some of the threads in this "debate" discussion area, from the perspective that many (if not most), begin with some type of post apparently aimed at exclaiming how bad (and/or just plain stoopid) Christians are? (I suppose - when compared with 'ex-' or 'non-' christian people in general?). Do you think it is possible, there might be just a tiny hint of "So we're better nya nya" present in any of those threads? <maybe I'm a bit paranoid>

 

Given this is a debate area, perhaps I felt like it might be a novel idea to have a thread started which seemed to be claiming (from the outset), there are some Christians actively involved in very difficult area - Christians who are doing something that is, dare I say it ... "good?". In an area where (at least) I haven't noticed many 'ex-' or 'non-' christians involved in the same type of unique way (that is - not until the last few years when IJM started getting big media attention, and the ear of like-minded so-called "Christian" people highly placed in the U.S. government).

 

Now, I understand (both now, and when I started this thread) - that I may simply be uninformed - perhaps, in actual fact - there may be many 'ex-' or 'non-' christian organizations, or just non affiliated individuals, doing the same type of "good" things and even in the same ways (and maybe I am wrong when I use the word "unique").

 

So, I invite anyone (as I have been doing throughout this thread), to better inform me, if you think my original assumption was in fact way off base - or - if you think I am just being a pompous pain in the a** (perhaps by bringing up a subject which you may not care to learn much about? - or if you just can't stand to hear someone - like myself - talk about this subject, when I am not also doing something of the more active involvement nature - which I brag about - but only talk about myself?).

 

At any rate, feel free to keep dishing it out - and I will continue - trying to take it.

 

By the way - if (any of) you - want me to feel really stoopid - just post some links to organizations consisting mostly of people who claim to be motivated by anything other than overtly Christian reasons, and who also appear to be more actively involved in the demonstrable process of setting free, people who are modern day "captives".

 

(for sample material sometimes mentioned by Christians as being "motivational" in nature, feel free to refer to Isaiah chapter 58 with particular emphasis on verse 6 - and Matthew 25:31-46)

 

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

... The prejudice is, that the people they are helping are somehow in more dire circumstances than people in more developed countries suffering the same abuses. Got any idea how many Russian women are white-slave trafficed to Isreal? The greed motive comes in because it is a lot easier to raise funds for a mission to East Bumfuck than a mission to South Philly.

 

I will not denegrate any good work done in this world, regardless of the motive, but for an external opinion of where this often leads, check out what the Sri-Lankins are saying about the evangelists in their midst.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Breakerslion,

 

I was evidentially typing my previous post while you were posting yours - sorry, I had not yet read yours.

 

I agree there are many Russian women trafficked into Israel, but I'm not sure how a mission to South Philly would help them.

 

I can't provide a supporting link immediately - off the top of my head - but I think the need is likely much larger (especially for minors) in places like Cambodia, Thailand, and even India.

 

I will try to check out concerning what the Sri-Lankins are saying about evangelists there.

 

If you want to provide me with a link - that would be good - but I will start by using google - to try to locate something along those lines.

 

-Dennis

[Ouroboros]

( This is taken from an email response - which I sent to one of our members who kindly pointed me to Amnesty International when I asked about what other organizations might be doing the type of work the  IJM organization is doing.  (On earlier versions of this board, some of us have been through this subject before - but I am still looking for an answer to my principle question - so I am starting this thread (again) here. )

 

 

How do you compare IJM to Humans Rights Watch:

Humans Right Watch

 

or Coalition for International Justice:

Coalition for International Justice

 

or Raoul Wallenberg Institute:

Raoul Wallenberg Institute

[SOIL]

How do you compare IJM to Humans Rights Watch:

Humans Right Watch

 

or Coalition for International Justice:

Coalition for International Justice

 

or Raoul Wallenberg Institute:

Raoul Wallenberg Institute

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now we're talkin!

 

Thanks HanSolo - this is the kind of post I have been hoping for!

 

It's getting late tonight and I need to be going on home - but I will quickly mention something about the first organization you mentioned.

 

I found the following two paragraphs on this page :

...

We have provided extensive evidence of human rights abuses to the war crimes tribunal for Rwanda, where the genocide in 1994 killed more than half a million people. Our expert testimony and legal analysis have helped convict several genocidaires.

 

We played an active role in the legal action against former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet in London and helped to buttress the important principle that even former heads of state can be held accountable for the most heinous human rights crimes. The "Pinochet precedent" has established that dictators who block their prosecution at home can be tried anywhere in the world. Human Rights Watch is also leading a global campaign so that all countries ratify the treaty for a permanent international criminal court, to prosecute those accused of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.

...

This is one of the types of things I am looking for. The use of skilled lawyers to help in court activities where local lawyer skills may not be enough to meet the demand (by the law-abiding people in the country where abuses are rampant).

 

This fine organization does not appear to be as involved (e.g. like IJM, in working alongside indigenous police force personnel (at least those who are not "on the take") - to assist them in learning the best techniques available for gathering the type of evidence that will hold up in court.

 

It looks to me (at least from just a quick high-level glance) like they are mostly involved with educating people and lobbying in forums such as the United Nations for better international activities.

 

I like this organization! Thanks for the link!

 

-Dennis

[Ouroboros]

I like this organization!  Thanks for the link!

 

-Dennis

 

I'm here to server.

[SOIL]

Breakerslion,

 

Does this article express some of what you were hinting at (regarding evangelism in Sri Lanka)?

 

I found these paragraphs particularly interesting:

...

I agree with Buddhist Observer that the monks have to get their act together. They could spend more time doing social work and helping to uplift the lives of the poor. But if they followed the Vinaya to the dot, they would only remain in the temples, out of sight and out of mind only to emerge on their alms round, while the evangelists would be free to do their job unhindered. I do not think this is exactly what is needed. Remaining hidden within the walls of the temple, while blissfully unaware of what is happening just beside it has led many Buddhist villages to become Christian.

 

The monks need to be more proactive and interested in the welfare of lay-people. They need to get up and get busy both preaching the Buddha Dhamma and helping out villagers as the need may be. Buddhist activism is what is needed most. The resurrection of the Bhikkhuni Sangha would not go astray either. Village ladies will then be able to approach and seek emotional solace from a fellow lady, instead of a monk, where they might feel more comfortable.

 

I feel it is very easy to be an "armchair Buddhist" - sitting around and proclaiming the Buddha Dhamma while criticizing and claiming that others are not "real Buddhists" because they may have transgressed the Dhamma in some way. The fact is, we are all Buddhists and as a Buddhist community spanning the globe we have to stand together instead of creating divisions, and putting down others so that we can feel good about being "real Buddhists." In the real world Buddhism has opponents, there are people who do not wish to see the Buddha Dhamma survive and flourish. There are those who wish to see it disappear and be replaced with their own religion, whatever it may be.

...

(in a way, that almost sounds like some Christian stuff I have read).

 

Actually I was saddened by some of what I read - for instance - I personally don't like the idea of Christians encouraging "converts" to burn important documents which relating to where they have come from. I suspect it may have been overzealous Christians - burning books - which may be partially responsible for why there are not more non-Biblical sources mentioning various things the New Testament talks about.

 

Now, in an effort to be more "fair": here are a few more paragraphs from the article: Why we must stand behind the bastion of Theravada Buddhism :

...

I would like to quote David Frawley here, from his article "The Ethics of Conversion":

 

"That certain individuals may influence other individuals to adapt one religious belief or another has seldom been a problem. There should be open and friendly discussion and debate about religion just as there is about science. But when one religion creates an agenda of conversion and mobilizes massive resources to that end, targeting unsuspecting, poor or disorganized groups, it is no longer a free discussion. It is an ideological assault.

 

It is a form of religious violence and intolerance. Organized conversion efforts are quite another matter than the common dialogue and interchange between members of different religious communities in daily life, or even than organized discussions in forums or academic settings. Organized conversion activity is like a trained army invading a country from the outside. This missionary army often goes into communities where there is little organized resistance to it, or which may not even be aware of its power or its motives. It will even take advantage of communities that are tolerant and open minded about religion and use that to promote a missionary agenda that destroys this tolerance."

 

This I feel describes the situation in Sri Lanka quite well. The Christian evangelists have taken advantage of the tolerance and open mindedness of the Buddhists and are using that to promote a missionary agenda that is destroying the tolerance. Sri Lanka is certainly not a rich country. It is a poor country and the government has not taken enough steps to alleviate poverty.

 

Consequently, it has become a fertile ground for evangelists who want to "harvest souls" for their God. They abuse the poverty of the people to get them to convert. Indeed, one might make the argument that the Buddhists should hitch up their pants and work to help the poor so that the poor are not tempted by the evangelists, but the fact of the matter is that the Buddhists are not as rich or organized as the evangelist organizations that have set up shop with the expressed purpose of converting Buddhists to Christianity.

...

 

Sorry - I guess this is basically "off topic" - but I wanted to show you, Breakerslion, that I will listen to you - and look into what you say.

 

-Dennis

[Guest Breakerslion]

If you found David Frawley, you probably found the best forum for understanding the problem from a Sri-Lankan perspective that I have yet found. Here is a link to the forum, in case you just encountered a stray document or two. Focus It is quite a lively and well-reasoned debate, reflecting the anguish of the community. Before we go any farther, I would like to say as an ex-Methodist, I am aware that all missionarys do not behave this way, but I believe, on balance, that they do at least as much harm as they do good.

 

As for this being "off topic", I disagree. The topic was, in part, why do Christian organizations involve themselves in human rights interventions at all? And, why in these seemingly backwater, remote and hostile countries? My answer is that it is done for public relations purposes and not altruistic reasons. This type of activity is easy to sell to parishioners and thereby raise funds to accomplish. Is this necessarily a bad thing? No, but it has built-in opportunities for abuses, including creating a condescending attitude towards, "those less fortunate than we". There is also something of a double-standard set by not cleaning up one's own back yard first. You know, that whole mote in the eye thing. (No, I'm not trying to minimize the scale of the problem with this reference. What we've got here is more like two equally imposing redwood trees. I say again, good work is good work regardless of the motive, so long as the work is actually and long-term historically good.)

 

I apologize for being unclear about the Russian white slave problem and South Philly. My two points were, that while the "Holy Land" is a popular destination, one seldom hears of a (Christian) human-rights mission to Isreal, and the second point was, that while there are many people suffering in many ways in South Philly, none but the very, very brave will go there. Point being: there is no need to go halfway around the world to risk one's life to help people.

[Kay]

I agree with Buddhist Observer that the monks have to get their act together. They could spend more time doing social work and helping to uplift the lives of the poor.

 

....Alleviating poverty and improving social welfare is the function of government, not a religious fat cat rolling in millions of dollars each year, only an infinitesimal fraction of which goes to charity. Furthermore, tt's a damning indictment against the performance and abilities of a government if a charity organization provides more aid and services to the people than the state can or will.

 

It's not up to the Buddhist monks to improve living standards - we've made that pretty clear in China since the Tang dynasty when they separated religion from state.

[SOIL]

Kay and Breakerslion,

 

Thanks for the interesting, thought provoking posts. I am under the gun with a lot of high profile work on my plate - (and traveling, etc...) thorughout this weekend and next week - so I doubt I will be able to post much for a while - but I will most likely be back whenever I can justify getting some time.

 

Thanks again,

 

Till later,

 

-Dennis

[Ouroboros]

Kay and Breakerslion,

 

Thanks for the interesting, thought provoking posts. I am under the gun with a lot of high profile work on my plate - (and traveling, etc...) thorughout this weekend and next week - so I doubt I will be able to post much for a while - but I will most likely be back whenever I can justify getting some time.

 

Thanks again,

 

Till later,

 

-Dennis

 

Have a nice trip, and good luck with your work.

[fallenleaf]

I'm just going to comment on some of the Buddhist things I've read here. I can't speak for Sri Lanka Buddhists, for example, but not all Buddhists communities (even Theravada) are sitting around not helping the poor around them. I, personally, was shocked recently by this fact. I was watching a documentary dealing with the Thai Buddhist monastaries. Thai Buddhism is a form a Theravada (in case you're wondering) and is completely ingrained in the nation. Although religious intolerance is practically unknown (the only "law" favoring Buddhism deals with the selection of their national leader who must be a Buddhist).

 

Anyway, I am getting distracted. In the documentary, I saw hundreds of young boys being committed to the monastaries. I didn't think too much of it. And it showed their initiation ceremony and some of the daily duties. It showed them going out for their alms to collect offerings so they could eat. It showed basically everything in their daily life. And then it showed the computer lab!? It turns out the monastaries take in the boys (for free) and provide them not only with religious instruction but a full education. They teach everything from computing, reading, math, etc. The boys are only monks as long as they want to be and are free to leave as soon as they finish their secular education, if they wish.

 

One of the young men, who had been a monk for several years, was talking about how once he graduated he planned to return to his village and work to bring electricity to it. [Eric picks his jaw up off the floor.]

 

I was shocked... I thought this was just a religious retreat thing but the monks recognize that improving society is one of their duties and they take it very seriously. It was odd as hell to see an ancient monastary with a computer lab and little boys in bright orange robes learning to type.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to point that out... because it shocked me. It shouldn't have shocked me... not really considering what I know of the beliefs... but it did. So it is not like all the monks just sit around ignoring their community around them when they aren't leaching off the work of the people. ;-)

 

EDIT: Let me just add that the goal of Buddhists is not to create more Buddhists. While many desire to share their understanding, to reduce the suffering around them, the idea of converts, like is understood by Christians, is not something they seek. So when they speak of spreading the Dhamma they do not really mean it the same way one spreads the word of Christ. This is also a reason so few Buddhist countries worry enough about Christian evangelists... they do not always understand that Christianity is a threat to their beliefs.

[Eponymic]

EDIT:  Let me just add that the goal of Buddhists is not to create more Buddhists.

 

You will covert to Buddhism!!!

 

Behold the Buddha Belly and be afeared!

 

BUDDHA

BUDDHA

BUDDHA

BUDDHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

 

 

Buddha.

[Kay]

That picture is seriously cool.

[SOIL]

That picture is seriously cool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is, until one lights the candles.

 

.... but then, how does one light candles on a "picture"?

 

-Dennis

[Guest Breakerslion]

"Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

 

If only the self-righteous would remember that one a little more often....