Jump to content

Valerie Tarico Talks About Pro-Choice And Pro-Abortion


Recommended Posts

 

That's inaccurate. My initial statement was "I have the right to advocate for those I feel are being wronged." Her verbatim response was "No you fucking don't."

 

 

It was the other way around.  Post #8 came before post #9.

 

#8 

"You don't get the right to tell me what medical procedures I can or can't have."

 

This is talking about not controlling another person's body.

 

 

#9

"With all due respect, if I believe you're killing another person I have every right to advocate for that person."

 

This is about freedom of speech.

 

 

When she followed up with post 10 she was talking about what she set up in post 8.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"Chromosomal sets are irrelevant."

Why?

 

 

Most of the things we eat have chromosomes.   DNA doesn't make a tuna sandwich into a person.

 

 

Edit:

I suspect this was too vague and will cause trouble later.  Let me clarify.  If I go down to the Red Cross

 

and donate blood every cell in my donation has human DNA and chromosomes.  But those cells are not

 

people and they don't get individual rights.  Zygotes and fetus die all the time even without medical

 

intervention.  The human reproductive system is set up to play a numbers game.  But that doesn't fit our

 

situation anymore because our species isn't struggling on the neolithic savannah.

 

 

When you exist attached to someone else you are also not independent. Hide the conjoined twins from this guy.

 

That is only one similarity with abortion.  You are ignoring all the differences.  The fetus being inside

 

the mother is one of the major factors but it is not the only one.

 

 

 

You have yet to say anything here.

 

Actually we just finished an abortion rights debate in the forum.  I argued that abortion rights are moral.

 

 

 

 

If you think any rule or regulation placed upon someone who happens to be female is necessarily misogynistic and evil, sure.

 

False.  Having a child and being responsible for raising that child for 18 years is not just any rule or regulation.

 

 

 

Here in reality, misogyny requires the intentional holding down of women based entirely on prejudice against their gender.

 

 

And that is exactly what forcing birth does.  You make women into slaves of biology.

 

 

 

I frankly don't give a shit which gender is pregnant . . .

 

Which is very convenient for men.  Biology gives us certain privilege.  The least we can do is try to understand.

 

 

 

I still don't see that as justification for killing it.

 

That isn't the justification for killing the fetus.  See triple 6's post for that.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Applying our own predictions and biases of potential life quality is awfully arrogant and short-sighted to me.

 

 

 

Don't look now but that is kind of what you are doing.

 

 

 

 "I think he'd grow up poor or unhappy, so he'd probably rather be dead" is just icky to me.

 

Well, you have the right to give birth to any babies that grow inside your body.  Just don't try to control 

 

what anybody else does with their own body.

 

 

 

Yes, some babies are born in extreme pain and with severe deformities. But this happens such at such a small clip in relation to healthy births that I don't think we need to entertain it in a general discussion. It's a point with some merit, but we're talking about the general idea of abortion, not examining each ultra-rare possibility.

 

If abortion is murder then you must oppose abortion even when horrible medical conditions exist.  Perhaps

 

you wish to ignore these cases because you are inconsistent?

 

 

 

What I can't seem to get across here is that I see no difference between a fertilized embryo and a five-year-old.

 

That is great.  You have every right to give birth to any embryo that grows in your body.

 

 

 

The mother can't kill the five-year-old out of financial or emotion hardship, so I apply that same rule to the embryo. Again, the disagreement here lies ENTIRELY in our opinions on personhood, not on whether women deserve rights. Of course they do, but I don't include willful killing as an inalienable right, and that's what I consider abortion to be.

 

You are ignoring the key differences.  It is not valid to ignore inconvenient details simply because they

 

oppose your agenda.  Abortion is a mercy kill, not a murder.  And the pregnant woman is the one person

 

with the very best perspective to know if the situation is favorable for the baby.  It should be her call.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Embryos exist within the mother, yes. But it is still an independent being in that it contains its own chromosomal set. Furthermore, it never asked to be placed there.

 

A lot of non human things have chromosomal sets. It never asked not to be removed either, because non sentient cell clumps don't have opinions on things.

 

The fact is that you're using your own arbitrary point (being born, or having a heartbeat) to justify yourself. But there are numerous hypotheticals that blow that away. A conjoined twin exists only when connected to its twin's body, and neither twin has the right to murder the other one because it accidentally infringed on its convenience level. A person living on breathing machines cannot synthesize its own oxygen, but is still a person.

 

When did I mention birth or heartbeats? And its funny you try and lecture that when you hold your own arbitrary point about life beginning in utero to justify yourself. I could bring up just as many hypotheticals to blow your claims away. 

 

Actually its not uncommon for an underformed conjoined twin to be allowed to die to allow the healthier twin to survive. Also, moot argument, because born conjoined twins are existing people, not barely formed embryos in another body.

 

A vegetative/comatose person can be removed from life support. I'm sure you've heard of the controversy. Also, born person, not a cell clump.

 

Please, please don't tell me "how I would feel" if the government declared abortion illegal. I would no more use CONGRESS as a morality measuring stick than I do now, which is 0%. If you're more comfortable letting the government determine your code of ethics, then have fun, though I suspect this is the only issue you feel that way about.

 

 

I was right on, wasn't I?

 

The government didn't give me my opinion on abortion rights, dear. Not sure why you would think so.

 

On what level is it necessarily an issue of misogyny? Please, tell me more about my disdain for women. Why do you assume I would be in favor of male abortions? Sorry, but that card doesn't work here. Misogyny is one of the factors that has moved me away from Christianity. I simply don't feel ANYONE has the right to kill a human organism without its consent. Our quibble here isn't one of women's rights; it's a disagreement on when personhood begins. And that has zero, nada, zilch to do with which gender can biologically carry a child.

 

A lot of misogyny is so inherent in things it can be overlooked easily. It is irrevocably tied into women's rights because it is women that are affected most. 

Hitchens was brought up for two reasons only: A because his quote is in FreeThinker's signature, and I found it ironic that she has a despicable misogynist adorning her every post; and B because the ignorant like to believe that abortion is strictly a religious issue and only fundies are against it.

 

Hitchens despised religion AND despised abortion, and he's far from the only one. A recent Gallup poll showed that 19% of the irreligious were against it.

 

I think Hitchens was wrong on the issue. Simple as that. Once again, Hitchens was not a prophet and we are free to agree and disagree with certain opinions he held. Your oversimplification only makes you look desperate.
 
Also, no one would ever disagree that there are atheists against abortion, but the fact is MOST abortion opponents are religious and most movements against it are religious in nature. 
 
A whopping 19%...not much to write home about.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious CC.  What convinced you to think of a zygote as a person?  Back when I was pro-life my motive

 

was religion so I can completely understand that.  In my mind it was the word of God and God runs the

 

universe so God decides right and wrong.  But you are arriving at your thoughts without religion so what is

 

the reasoning for saying zygotes are people?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am female, completely understand the plight of women being pregnant when they are not ready, and the biological situation that unfairly burdens women with the consequences of conception.  This does not absolve women from being compassionate and being respectful of life. Where does personhood begin?  I think there is certainly some grey territory here especially right at conception up to the 1st trimester.  A bunch of cells coming together is not a conscious person and aborting at this point could no less be considered murder than one scratching one's skin and having living human cells fall to the ground.  On the other hand what seems less grey are abortions are done in the 2nd and 3rd trimester.  This now seems like one could contemplate calling this murder.  Many fetuses survive out of the womb after 22 weeks and by 28 weeks the chances of healthy survival are pretty high.  I don't particularly believe one has to be religious to come to this point of view.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am female, completely understand the plight of women being pregnant when they are not ready, and the biological situation that unfairly burdens women with the consequences of conception.  This does not absolve women from being compassionate and being respectful of life. Where does personhood begin?  I think there is certainly some grey territory here especially right at conception up to the 1st trimester.  A bunch of cells coming together is not a conscious person and aborting at this point could no less be considered murder than one scratching one's skin and having living human cells fall to the ground.  On the other hand what seems less grey are abortions are done in the 2nd and 3rd trimester.  This now seems like one could contemplate calling this murder.  Many fetuses survive out of the womb after 22 weeks and by 28 weeks the chances of healthy survival are pretty high.  I don't particularly believe one has to be religious to come to this point of view.

 

Abortions after 20 weeks overwhelmingly happen for medical reasons, especially in the third trimester. Women don't waltz into a clinic at 28 weeks on a whim.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am female, completely understand the plight of women being pregnant when they are not ready, and the biological situation that unfairly burdens women with the consequences of conception.  This does not absolve women from being compassionate and being respectful of life. Where does personhood begin?  I think there is certainly some grey territory here especially right at conception up to the 1st trimester.  A bunch of cells coming together is not a conscious person and aborting at this point could no less be considered murder than one scratching one's skin and having living human cells fall to the ground.  On the other hand what seems less grey are abortions are done in the 2nd and 3rd trimester.  This now seems like one could contemplate calling this murder.  Many fetuses survive out of the womb after 22 weeks and by 28 weeks the chances of healthy survival are pretty high.  I don't particularly believe one has to be religious to come to this point of view.

 

 

So I take it that you would answer my question based on how much the fetus looks like a baby?  When I 

 

woke up from being "Pro-life" I realized something.  We don't respect life *after* it is born.  We fight so hard

 

to get every fetus born and then once it is a person that person is on their own.  Don't have enough 

 

income to survive?  Well you are just an ungrateful moocher who milks the system.  Can't learn when you

 

are crammed into a poorly-funded inner city school?  Well spend your life in prison or be homeless.  We

 

don't care.  All that mattered was that we made sure you got born.  Go fend for yourself.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

SilentLoner--I don't think women ever get abortions on a whim (such a horrible weighty decision).  I know the conservative/right wing folks definitely like painting it as women just not caring or flippant about the whole thing.  I just think that a fetus that can survive outside the womb should not be treated inhumanely by taking his/her life (of course, I can understand under very specific circumstances having a late trimester abortion (mother's life is at stake or baby won't live anyway if carried to term)).  Some of these abortion procedures seem barbaric and inhumane (we as a society should at least induce labor in the 2nd and 3rd trimester instead of breaking or crushing the skull and sucking it out of the womb).  

 

Mymistake--I understand where you are coming from (i.e. the sadness that comes when a child is born but not wanted or the circumstances aren't right) but I guess I just don't think that it justifies murder.  I think we as women, should make the choice to abort early when the likelihood of pain for the fetus is very low or when it is in the zygote stage.  I have worked with foster children and been a foster parent so I am well acquainted with this sadness.  I know that women are often derailed by pregnancies and often fall into poverty when motherhood is forced upon them before they are in the right circumstances to raise a child.  I honestly don't think end justifies the means though.  There are alternatives to abortion....such as adoption and there are many programs out there to help young single moms get back on their feet.  

 

As a side note:  I also feel like birth control should be over the counter and give out like candy.  This would help prevent a lot of these kinds of situations that men and women find themselves in.  Unfortunately, women pay a steeper price for all of this and I try hard to educate my daughter about all of these things.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Mymistake--I understand where you are coming from (i.e. the sadness that comes when a child is born but not wanted or the circumstances aren't right) but I guess I just don't think that it justifies murder.  I think we as women, should make the choice to abort early when the likelihood of pain for the fetus is very low or when it is in the zygote stage.  I have worked with foster children and been a foster parent so I am well acquainted with this sadness.  I know that women are often derailed by pregnancies and often fall into poverty when motherhood is forced upon them before they are in the right circumstances to raise a child.  I honestly don't think end justifies the means though.  There are alternatives to abortion....such as adoption and there are many programs out there to help young single moms get back on their feet.  

 

 

 

Why would abortion be murder?  Do you really want the coroner to have to investigate every single stillbirth

 

and for the police to make an arrest every time they can't find a natural cause?  That would put a lot of

 

innocent women under suspicion.  On top of that about 30% of women are "guilty" of having abortions so

 

in the long term that means  sending, what, about 30 million people to prison for murder.  Of course many 

 

of those women won't survive the procedure if we force them to get illegal abortions.  Either way, it will leave

 

our non-prison population with a surplus of men.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

So abortion is killing a living something, right? What is that something? If we don't kill it, what will it grow into?

My guess is it will grow into a baby if its wanted, and it will be killed if it isn't.

 

Ugh.

 

Do we sometimes have to kill, just like Yahweh did, in order to make the world a better place?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of these abortion procedures seem barbaric and inhumane (we as a society should at least induce labor in the 2nd and 3rd trimester instead of breaking or crushing the skull and sucking it out of the womb).  

 

 

"Seem"? Is that your medical degree talking? Well I'm sorry to inform you they haven't invented a magic wand to make fetuses dissolve magically. Abortion procedures are designed to be as safe as possible for the woman and pose the least amount of injury risk during removal. 

 

There's a reason induced labor is avoided, it seems incredibly ignorant and arrogant of you to say they should "just" do it to make YOU comfortable. 

 

Also, quit getting your descriptions of abortion procedures off anti abortion sites, because a fetus is already dead before any removal procedures start (an injection is given to stop the heart, nothing begins until no heartbeat is detected).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

What is that something? If we don't kill it, what will it grow into?

My guess is it will grow into a baby if its wanted, and it will be killed if it isn't.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What is that something? If we don't kill it, what will it grow into?

My guess is it will grow into a baby if its wanted, and it will be killed if it isn't.

 

 

 

All you have is Monty Python???!!???

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

What is that something? If we don't kill it, what will it grow into?

My guess is it will grow into a baby if its wanted, and it will be killed if it isn't.

 

 

 

All you have is Monty Python???!!???

 

What more do you need? GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I, too, am a pro-life atheist, and a female. I was pro-life before I converted to Christianity, during my Christian years, and remain so in my post-Christian years. It is a very, very unpopular position to take. I enjoyed the formal debate that was on here recently, because emotions stayed calm and logic was used. As a natural-born people pleaser, I struggle when peeples on the internetz start virtually yelling at me, lol.

 

I will try to find the other thread on here where I went into some more detail about my beliefs on this topic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know how you felt about your daughter, and realize that she would not exist if you had chosen an abortion. But...this is your child, and your family. You should make decisions for your own family only, not someone else's. How would you feel if someone who didn't know you or your children at all decided s/he knows what is best for all of you, and proceeded to make those decisions in your place? You would be angry. That is how people feel when they believe that an abortion is best for all of them personally, but others decide they know better and try to stop them. It doesn't matter if anti-abortion beliefs are based on religion, or feelings as yours were. Your circumstances are different from others'; your feelings are about your child only and do not apply to other people's families.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.