Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Charleston Massacre


slave2six

Recommended Posts

If only they hadn't taken god and prayer out of churches!

 

Oh no wait, that's the excuse for school shootings...

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If only they hadn't taken god and prayer out of churches!

 

Oh no wait, that's the excuse for school shootings...

Okay, now THAT'S funny!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Isn't dying for your faith the whole point?  Take up your cross?  Turn the other cheek?  

 

Wait..., they didn't get to die for their faith, did they?  They died for having dark skin.  Would not a just God have at least given them an opportunity to be martyrs for the cause?  Whatever god they think that they are serving is bullshit.

....and, of course, Fox News uses it as a talking point to back their martyr complex and accuse the murderer of being motivated by a hatred of Christians.  WTF?  http://crooksandliars.com/2015/06/fox-news-blames-war-christians-attack-not

 

Yes, this really freaks me out.  The white right wing is saying Roof's actions are part of a war on Christianity.  Lindsay Graham, running for President, promotes this very lie, associating Roof with vague "people out there who are looking for Christians to kill."

 

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/lindsey-graham-charleston-shooter-may-have-been-looking-for-christians-to-kill/

 

A survivor of the attack reports that Roof told her that he had intended to kill black people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not persecution of Christians, for goodness sake! He chose a place where there would be a group of unarmed black people in one spot, with not many opportunities for escape. My husband never carried his concealed weapon into church (which could be used to take down a shooter if needed -- who would've thought?), and there were only two doors on opposite sides of the sanctuary for escape. People in the middle would be sitting ducks. The church, in this case, was just a calculated opportunity for a racist rampage, not a religious thing.

 

And the shooter ranted about the people being black, not about being Christians. I don't see how this is persecution of Christians. Nice try.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So many Christians when confronted with horror like this lapse into this attitude I find hard to describe, it's as if they have been lobotomized. 

 

Perfect example- I was listening last night to some Christian talk show. At first the discussion of this tragedy seemed ok and supportive to people calling in upset over it. The female host was talking in this flat, emotionless sing song sort of way about how this wasn't due to guns, mental health funding or race. No, it was because humans are evil. Also there is NOTHING we can do or should do to prevent this sort of thing from happening again because that can only happen when Jeeeesus comes back to save the world. Most of the callers incredibly were blaming Obama. He 'hates white people', yada yada. I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cry. Their capacity for delusion is bottomless. 

 

As time and events go by I am seriously coming to hate Christians.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's confessed that he did it specifically to start a racial war because black people were taking over the country and he had no choice. Like stated above he chose this location perhaps because of the historical significance or perhaps because of the Pastor/Senator's remarks about gun violence, I'm sure we will get more details as time goes by. However I let out a humorless laugh yesterday when I checked what FoxNews was saying before he was apprehended and they were twisting the entire thing as an attack on faith - faith of course being Christianity. 

 

Now, on the discussion on why specifically Blacks cling to Christianity. When slaves were brought over from Africa they all had their own religions/cultures obviously but part of the process of slavery was the stripping of culture and the incorporation of beliefs, those beliefs being Christianity specially because the Bible as we know, if very pro-slavery. The Bible was used as a guidebook of sorts to control them and to keep them in place. They basically instilled the 'fear of God' in them which is sick and demented but this is what happened and this happened for GENERATIONS until Christianity became part of their identity, part of this subculture found in America. When they were freed they took those beliefs with them and because things were still horrible (Jim Crow/Segregation) Christianity flourished as a religion for the oppressed and the poor. It is the hope that after this life the next life would be better. Fast forward to 2015 and those ties and roots to Christian beliefs have held on stronger in Black communities (and Hispanic) because again you have a minority that for the most part comes from a low-income sector and the belief that life is better in the after is incredibly appealing and something to hold on to.

 

The Massacre on Wednesday was simply horrific and it's hard to swallow and cope with but for believers it is their one source of comfort, that those gunned down in cold blood are "in a better place" because the other thought and the other option is too heartbreaking for them and the truth is many cannot handle it and I'm not just talking about Black people, I'm talking about America in general. Because we cannot confront that profound immorality comes from within us, it needs to be blamed on some supernatural evil being that is controlling all of this because we are unwilling to have the hard conversations on what makes us such a hateful society and how deep-rooted it is. I'm Hispanic and in our countries there is a clear divide among the people - the poor tend to be overly religious and the upper classes tend to be Sunday goers, if that makes sense.

 

Despite it all I am sad, very disheartened and angry by what happened this week because these were normal people going about their usually activities and they had to loose their lives in such a manner and we're all left grappling for answers of the why, why did it happen, why does this happen? Some will turn to their faith and some like us who know better still have no answers other than whatever made this man do this was as strong as people's belief in their religion and lacking in reason because this is what mass killings are - unreasonable acts. We want answers but truly sometimes there's no answer other than hate and anger and that unfortunately is the fuel that causes too many deaths.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm trying to keep my comments more philosophical than about this particular case.

 

When I was a believer, terrible things like this would happen to good people, and it is a true tragedy for those good people.

 

Even as an agnostic, I still wanted to believe in the idea of god, even though I hadn't prayed in many years, and I had so many questions about the bible (but no good answers because it was pre-internet).

 

I would see other people flocking to churches to pray after events like this, but I never had that urge.

 

I wasn't angry at god.  I felt like if god existed, s/he(it) was so detached from its creation that it would just let everything play out, then in eternity make everything right.

 

But that was such a vague concept of a god.

 

I think I back then I found myself more angry at myself for wanting to believe there was some reason, some eventual good that would come out of these tragic events.  It seemed to somehow let the evil-doers off the hook somehow, and take away from the tragedy of the victims.

 

Today, as an atheist, I think that there are some individuals who are just evil (or psychopaths with no care or thought for others) and sometimes innocent, good people become their victims.

 

It's still depressing when these things happen.  If it were someone I knew that was affected, it would be even worse than depressing.  I feel horrible for the victims and their families and friends.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a story on CNN about the woman who tipped off police to Roof's location.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/charleston-church-shooting-nc-woman-tip/index.html

 

She is convinced that god was "working through her" to catch the murderer. I guess Mr. God was busy else where a few hours earlier and so could not have prevented the massacre from happening in the first place.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look, guys, with all due respect-do we have to turn a massacre into a talking point?

 

I mean, it sorta degrades the dead to use them as a "ha ha, there's no God, gotcha!"

 

It's just my opinion, but I just don't think this is right.

 

Then you should stay out of this thread. If we want to discuss, we'll do it whether you approve or not.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Look, guys, with all due respect-do we have to turn a massacre into a talking point?

 

I mean, it sorta degrades the dead to use them as a "ha ha, there's no God, gotcha!"

 

It's just my opinion, but I just don't think this is right.

 

Then you should stay out of this thread. If we want to discuss, we'll do it whether you approve or not.

 

Fair enough.

 

Just take the time to remember that this is an open forum. Everyone can see you say these things.

 

Food for thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They will view it as persecution for their religion. That's likely how it will be presented in other churches even though it was blatant racism on the perpetrator's part. However, persecution of Christians is something all Christians believe they have in common,  I'm sure more than one church who has almost no black people will act like they are so brave for still attending church and never address the real issue. 

 

Even though I disagree with their beliefs, it is always wrong that anybody be attacked and picked off in that manner regardless if it's church, schools, the mall, a theater, gas stations, or even their own home.  My parents have warped beliefs and I have serious issues with them but I'd be pissed as heck if someone decided to shoot and kill them while attending church.  Religious beliefs, skin color, sexual orientation does not negate a person's right to exist. 

 

The congergation at this church will likely see this as God using them to witness to the world.  It's depressing though, every part of it.  I do wonder if this had happened to me ten years ago if I still would have went on believing or been de-converted sooner, but I think I would have believed in God still (after all, he could have bombed the place or massacred the whole congregation). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Look, guys, with all due respect-do we have to turn a massacre into a talking point?

 

I mean, it sorta degrades the dead to use them as a "ha ha, there's no God, gotcha!"

 

It's just my opinion, but I just don't think this is right.

 

Then you should stay out of this thread. If we want to discuss, we'll do it whether you approve or not.

 

Fair enough.

 

Just take the time to remember that this is an open forum. Everyone can see you say these things.

 

Food for thought.

 

 

Yep. That's the idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word racism or racist has been turned into a weapon designed to control people & silence those with an opposing point of view. Essentially it has become a way to censor free speech & it is being used successfully with practically no opposition & that is leading to a lot of suppressed anger & resentment.

 

If the word racism is correctly defined then most of the events of the past few years that lead to riots & mass destruction of property was not initiated by a racist, if that word is correctly defined. Race likely played a roll in many of those events but racists acts did not start the event.

 

 

The event that took place in Charleston is an example of a purely racists act committed by a racist. This was hatred based on race that became violent with the senseless killing of people based solely on the color of their skin. That is the classic definition & example of what true racism looks like.

 

Freedom of association is a right. Nobody is obligated to like anybody else or is anyone required to associate with anyone either. The line in the sand is clear. The law is broken when that dislike of some group becomes an action designed & intended to cause them harm physically,emotionally, or economically. Real racism is pretty easy to identify because it's so ugly & real racist come in lots of colors, genders, & cultures.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word racism or racist has been turned into a weapon designed to control people & silence those with an opposing point of view. Essentially it has become a way to censor free speech & it is being used successfully with practically no opposition & that is leading to a lot of suppressed anger & resentment.

 

If the word racism is correctly defined then most of the events of the past few years that lead to riots & mass destruction of property was not initiated by a racist, if that word is correctly defined. Race likely played a roll in many of those events but racists acts did not start the event.

 

 

The event that took place in Charleston is an example of a purely racists act committed by a racist. This was hatred based on race that became violent with the senseless killing of people based solely on the color of their skin. That is the classic definition & example of what true racism looks like.

 

Freedom of association is a right. Nobody is obligated to like anybody else or is anyone required to associate with anyone either. The line in the sand is clear. The law is broken when that dislike of some group becomes an action designed & intended to cause them harm physically,emotionally, or economically. Real racism is pretty easy to identify because it's so ugly & real racist come in lots of colors, genders, & cultures.

 

Oh how very wrong you are.

 

What you described is overt active racism. That is not the same thing as racism.

 

Having been married to a black woman for the past 22 years, I as a white guy have had jaw dropping, eye opening exposure to racism in many forms. It's not all one way either. It's not as if no black people are racist.

 

However, America is still a nation run by white people, many (IMHO most) of whom are racists. Whether we are talking about those with political power or members of the police force, racism plays a huge role in policies and attitudes which then result in the insanity that we have witnessed all too often in recent months.

 

The saddest aspect of this discussion is that too many white people don't even recognize that they are racists. They think that just because they know or befriend some black people that this demonstrates that they are not racist. But the reality is that as long as they see them as "black people" and not as "people" the racism is there. You hear it expressed in the pronoun "them." As long as any white person sees a black person and does not think of that person as "one of us" then there is a separation which is at the root of racist thought.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know why God didn't stop Roof:

FREEEEEEE WIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

How many times do Christians have to explain this?? The free will of a murderer is always more important than people's right to live!! Obviously! And, of course, original sin.

 

It is terrible that things like this still happen. Sending out thoughts for Charleston.

 

The Boltons? Nah, Ramsay would have been helping him. *shudder* I thank the gods he doesn't actually exist. I would hand Roof to Daenerys--as much as I dislike her, she wouldn't tolerate that stuff.

 

Anyway, back to Charleston. The media is still calling Roof's racist rant a "manifesto," like they did a couple years ago with Elliot Rogers' sexist rant before he shot the people at the university. Can we just please stop glorifying these horrible people and refer to their ravings as they are--not a manifesto, it's a bigoted tirade!!!

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slavetosix you're validating the point I was intending to make. The very word racism is almost always used to intimidate & silence any opposing view. The very charge of racism is sufficient to affix guilt. Evidence isn't required. It's almost like the Salem Witch hunts. A finger is pointed & guilt is assumed.

 

The word has become the most powerful word in the English language. It has the power to destroy even the most powerful people in our society simply by making the charge. As I noted earlier, no evidence is required. The charge is sufficient to destroy a person's life.

 

When someone figures out how to make people like & respect one another they will likely become very rich, but until then we are going to have folks that just don't like one another & I think that has always been so. I think the best we can do as a society is to punish those that actually do harm to another person & there is evidence to prove the person guilty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's confessed that he did it specifically to start a racial war because black people were taking over the country and he had no choice. Like stated above he chose this location perhaps because of the historical significance or perhaps because of the Pastor/Senator's remarks about gun violence, I'm sure we will get more details as time goes by. However I let out a humorless laugh yesterday when I checked what FoxNews was saying before he was apprehended and they were twisting the entire thing as an attack on faith - faith of course being Christianity. 

 

Now, on the discussion on why specifically Blacks cling to Christianity. When slaves were brought over from Africa they all had their own religions/cultures obviously but part of the process of slavery was the stripping of culture and the incorporation of beliefs, those beliefs being Christianity specially because the Bible as we know, if very pro-slavery. The Bible was used as a guidebook of sorts to control them and to keep them in place. They basically instilled the 'fear of God' in them which is sick and demented but this is what happened and this happened for GENERATIONS until Christianity became part of their identity, part of this subculture found in America. When they were freed they took those beliefs with them and because things were still horrible (Jim Crow/Segregation) Christianity flourished as a religion for the oppressed and the poor. It is the hope that after this life the next life would be better. Fast forward to 2015 and those ties and roots to Christian beliefs have held on stronger in Black communities (and Hispanic) because again you have a minority that for the most part comes from a low-income sector and the belief that life is better in the after is incredibly appealing and something to hold on to.

 

The Massacre on Wednesday was simply horrific and it's hard to swallow and cope with but for believers it is their one source of comfort, that those gunned down in cold blood are "in a better place" because the other thought and the other option is too heartbreaking for them and the truth is many cannot handle it and I'm not just talking about Black people, I'm talking about America in general. Because we cannot confront that profound immorality comes from within us, it needs to be blamed on some supernatural evil being that is controlling all of this because we are unwilling to have the hard conversations on what makes us such a hateful society and how deep-rooted it is. I'm Hispanic and in our countries there is a clear divide among the people - the poor tend to be overly religious and the upper classes tend to be Sunday goers, if that makes sense.

 

Despite it all I am sad, very disheartened and angry by what happened this week because these were normal people going about their usually activities and they had to loose their lives in such a manner and we're all left grappling for answers of the why, why did it happen, why does this happen? Some will turn to their faith and some like us who know better still have no answers other than whatever made this man do this was as strong as people's belief in their religion and lacking in reason because this is what mass killings are - unreasonable acts. We want answers but truly sometimes there's no answer other than hate and anger and that unfortunately is the fuel that causes too many deaths.

 

Good grief! I think I'm in love! Nicely put.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slavetosix you're validating the point I was intending to make. The very word racism is almost always used to intimidate & silence any opposing view. The very charge of racism is sufficient to affix guilt. Evidence isn't required. 

 

I disagree. The Right is twisting themselves into knots trying to avoid admitting that this was an action borne of racial hatred. I would have far more respect for the Right if they just admitted that racism is still a big problem. But they won't.

 

And that's the problem. 

 

It's almost like the Salem Witch hunts. A finger is pointed & guilt is assumed.

 

Give me a break. No one is suggesting that we burn any of these ignorant people at a stake. We just want them to be honest for goodness sakes.

 

The word has become the most powerful word in the English language. It has the power to destroy even the most powerful people in our society simply by making the charge. As I noted earlier, no evidence is required. The charge is sufficient to destroy a person's life.

I think you are far off the deep end here. Whose life has been ruined except those whose loved ones have been taken from them? 

 

When someone figures out how to make people like & respect one another they will likely become very rich, but until then we are going to have folks that just don't like one another & I think that has always been so.

 

The first step to solving this problem is to admit that there is a problem. This is something that too many people are unwilling to do. Rather, they cry "foul" and make themselves out to be victims.

 

It's pathetic and it needs to stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Slavetosix you're validating the point I was intending to make. The very word racism is almost always used to intimidate & silence any opposing view. The very charge of racism is sufficient to affix guilt. Evidence isn't required. 

 

I disagree. The Right is twisting themselves into knots trying to avoid admitting that this was an action borne of racial hatred. I would have far more respect for the Right if they just admitted that racism is still a big problem. But they won't.

 

And that's the problem. 

 

It's almost like the Salem Witch hunts. A finger is pointed & guilt is assumed.

 

Give me a break. No one is suggesting that we burn any of these ignorant people at a stake. We just want them to be honest for goodness sakes.

 

The word has become the most powerful word in the English language. It has the power to destroy even the most powerful people in our society simply by making the charge. As I noted earlier, no evidence is required. The charge is sufficient to destroy a person's life.

I think you are far off the deep end here. Whose life has been ruined except those whose loved ones have been taken from them? 

 

When someone figures out how to make people like & respect one another they will likely become very rich, but until then we are going to have folks that just don't like one another & I think that has always been so.

 

The first step to solving this problem is to admit that there is a problem. This is something that too many people are unwilling to do. Rather, they cry "foul" and make themselves out to be victims.

 

It's pathetic and it needs to stop.

 

 

Bravo, I couldn't agree more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even though I live in one of the most widely recognized racists cities in the United States, I was unaware the rest of the country, including the political right, is unaware that racism exists; or that it isn't one of the most serious problems facing this country. Really? You seriously believe the political right doesn't think racism exists or that it's not a powder keg that has the potential to create a real race war? The political left is the only one that has figured that out? You honestly believe that?

 

The current focus on political correctness, IMO, is a major part of the problem and is hindering honest dialog from taking place. People are afraid to say what they truly believe for fear of having their lives destroyed. Forcing people to shut up just makes the problem worse. That tactic creates anger and feeds hostility. 

 

A solution will never be found until the reason for peoples hatred and distrust can be brought out into the light of day. The problem can't be resolved if the real reason for the problem is kept hidden. And that isn't a one way street. Both sides need to be able to speak freely. If somebody hates me I want to know why. I can't even address the problem until I know why they hate me. 

 

Racism isn't a problem unique to the United States. Racism exists in every country in the world and has since the beginning of mankind and I think that is pretty much common knowledge. Humans are naturally tribal. Hell, in Ireland White Protestants hate White Catholics. Duh, they are both white and they both kill one another and destroy each other's property. The Jews and the Muslims, need I say more? One sect of Muslims hates the other sect. 

 

Our race problems here in the United State are anything but unique. And White Supremacist  pretty much hate everybody on earth that isn't part of their tribe, or doesn't agree with them. Ditto for the Black Panthers. 

 

I doubt racism is fixable but I'm certain things can be a lot better than they are now, but that will require allowing people to speak their mind and air their grievances, without fear of repercussions so solutions can be explored. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon. 

 

Riots and senseless killings will continue because the politicians are afraid to even talk about the problem much less try and find solutions. A politician or celebrity who is willing to openly talk about race issues, in this politically correct climate, must be brain dead or have a metaphorical death wish to have their lives destroyed. 

 

As long as political correctness has a death grip on reality in this country I don't see anything significant happening to try and resolve the issue. And I don't see political correctness going away. It seems to be getting stronger not weaker, and I don't think that's a good thing. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Couldn't agree with you more, Geezer. I have a biracial daughter and though I don't for a second think that makes me any more knowledgable or any less racist, it has opened my eyes to things I had no idea existed. When she was born, I started looking for baby dolls that matched her skin tone and eye color. I found nothing but white, blue eyed dolls in the stores. I had to search online and even then they were few and far between. I had to learn how to care for her hair and then when she got old enough to notice other girls' hair, had to fight her hatred of her own hair and desire to have long, straight blond hair. Though at 11 she no longer talks about it much, I see occasional glimpses that it still exists inside her. On top of that, she is a tomboy who wants absolutely nothing to do with being a girl. So not only do I have to struggle to get her to accept aspects of her ethnicity, I have to also struggle to get her to see the positive aspects of being a girl and accept that! (Please don't anybody bring up Caitlyn Jenner here. If that becomes an issue, we'll deal with it then).

 

I tried to have an online exchange with some people awhile back, trying to understand their reactions to the Ferguson shooting, and it was incredibly frustrating. I truly wanted to understand, while trying also to give insights into my husband's experiences as a white police officer, and I got shut down and dismissed again and again. If one side is continually told they "can't possibly ever understand", "have never walked in our shoes", "will always be racist", etc. then how can we ever fix this?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest CutiePie

10561589_701841566633710_538298044816536


Yep. Sometimes you guys ( not all just some ) need to know when to shut up and not turn something into a debate or whatever. Why turn this into a fucking talk? Why can't some of you guys just let them be, people died for fucks sakes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sweets - because this stuff never gets talked about until something terrible happens. We all just assume there aren't any problems, then this happens and we realize the status quo is misleading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest CutiePie

Sweets - because this stuff never gets talked about until something terrible happens. We all just assume there aren't any problems, then this happens and we realize the status quo is misleading.

 

So what? If people die do we in general go around saying, look you died, where's your god, why didn't he save them, why do people still believe, point of the matter is people died during this, this shouldn't get turned into some debate about god in the existence of one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the racial stuff. I agree with you on the God existence stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.