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Is Islam Hostile To Religious Freedom?


ficino
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OK guys, tell me I'm wrong.  I consider myself liberal in many ways.  But I do not think Islamic countries are OK with religious freedom.  They may allow non-Muslims to worship in their own traditions (perhaps ISIS doesn't even allow that). But they do not allow Muslims to convert to another religion, and they do not allow other religions to seek to win converts from among Muslims.  yet, they're fine with other religionists converting to Islam.  This in my book makes them hostile to religious freedom.

 

And don't get me started on "out" atheists.

 

This guy shilly-shallies around and in the end gives the usual, "sort of, but not really, it's more complicated than that" liberal bullshit.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/07/10/are-muslim-countries-really-unreceptive-to-religious-freedom/

 

Am I wrong?

 

Maybe it comes down to definitions.  By "Islamic country" I mean one that is overtly under Islamic law or heavily influenced by Islamic law.  I don't mean Turkey (though it has some who are trying to make it Islamist).

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I agree. In many ways, radical Muslims are worse than Christians. You see radical Christians standing on the side of the road saying "GOD HATES FAGS" or "BURN IN HELL ALL OF YOU"..... but I've never seen a Christian saw someone's head off with a knife, have you? Just sayin. If you think of religion as a pool, and you got all sorts of people swimming around, enjoying themselves, having a great time, that's great. But then you got these fanatics in the deep end and they are shitting in the pool, mucking it up for everyone. Then you got the crazy fundamental Muslims that are not only shitting in the pool, but they are dragging people in against their will and drowning them. Pretty soon, EVERYONE is gonna be forced out of the pool and it will be shut down for good, for it is becoming a sort of public safety hazard.

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It's one of the issues that really started to force me out of the liberal "mold" so to speak. I still consider myself "liberal" on quite a few issues, albeit in a more Jeffersonian way. It was startling, in fact, to see the ideals of religious freedom, free speech, and tolerance so quickly jettisoned in place of wishy-washy acceptance and treatment of a culture and belief system that is almost the anti-thesis to Enlightenment Age ideals. Criticism of Islam is quickly labeled as racist, and brushed away with "ya, well just look at how much the West has screwed up the Middle East". Those accusations are true, definitely, the West (reaching back to the British/Europe colonial days) definitely did serious damage to the Middle East. But to completely dismiss deep rooted conflicting ideals between two world perspectives is inviting trouble. Honest criticism should be as welcome of Islam as it is of Christianity. Many here on this site openly disparage and attack Christianity for being a bankrupt worldview. That same intellectual honesty should be equally applied.

 

Edit: And obviously when it is people receive death threats or get beheaded. Just ask Salman Rushdie or Charlie Hebdo.

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That's the one thing I absolutely cannot understand about liberals, or at least the vocal segment of liberals that for some reason preach about how Islam is totally misunderstood and really not a threat in any way what so ever, and those radicals are totally not real Muslims despite everything in their holy texts telling all of them to act like the radicals, and better yet not to act like the moderates... Yes, I really don't like Islam, and I'm not sorry.

 

Being an atheist I find groups of people that would gladly kill me in the most brutal way they can manage, simply for not believing their pigshit (Muhammad be upon it), completely unacceptable, I cannot under any circumstance sympathize with Islam. At least Christianity is just mostly harmless stupidity at this point...

 

I consider myself a moderate with strong to extreme anti-totalitarian/authoritarian leanings, and a bad taste for both democrats and republicans, or hell, politics in general. Otherwise I'm still sorting shit out in a mostly apathetic manner.

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Of course it is, and it is hostile towards human rights and freedom in general.

 

I never understood the touchy feely crap that comes from liberals about Islam when talking about it (that is exacty what it is). Islam is basically against everything liberalism stands for, it is a much barbaric religion than modern day Christianity (which again same people have no problem bashing). Yet for some strange reason, terms like racist, Islamphobe, "new age atheism" get thrown around on an instant people start talking about Islam in a negative light. It has happened on this very site.

 

I am not going to applogize for my opinion on Islam, we don't applogize for our opinions on Christanity.

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As i mentioned in another pertinent thread, I know a Jordanian family who had to flee their home country because they were Christian and the predominantly Muslim society would have eventually killed them. 

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Nevermind

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All Abrahmic religion is ultimately anti freedom.  All that differs is the nature of the pressure and how fatal it tends to be.

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It's one of the issues that really started to force me out of the liberal "mold" so to speak. I still consider myself "liberal" on quite a few issues, albeit in a more Jeffersonian way. It was startling, in fact, to see the ideals of religious freedom, free speech, and tolerance so quickly jettisoned in place of wishy-washy acceptance and treatment of a culture and belief system that is almost the anti-thesis to Enlightenment Age ideals. Criticism of Islam is quickly labeled as racist, and brushed away with "ya, well just look at how much the West has screwed up the Middle East". Those accusations are true, definitely, the West (reaching back to the British/Europe colonial days) definitely did serious damage to the Middle East. But to completely dismiss deep rooted conflicting ideals between two world perspectives is inviting trouble. Honest criticism should be as welcome of Islam as it is of Christianity. Many here on this site openly disparage and attack Christianity for being a bankrupt worldview. That same intellectual honesty should be equally applied.

 

Edit: And obviously when it is people receive death threats or get beheaded. Just ask Salman Rushdie or Charlie Hebdo.

I think part of the subtle attraction of going to a particular church week after week is the fact that you needn't expend any effort dissecting the issues of the day and drawing your own conclusions; you will be instructed as to what you should think. Such unthinking behavior cements you in as a group member and relieves you of doing any research or educating yourself in any way. There is comfort in this and no effort is required. You now "stand for something."

 

The same psychology is at work with political leanings. Once you identify as a "Liberal" or a "Conservative" the dynamic of identity changes just like it did in religion. Few are able to deviate very far from their party line and I bet most don't even want to entertain contrary opinions. If you simply MUST think for yourself, then please stop calling yourself a Liberal or Conservative as we have expectations and a simple labeling system that can't accommodate diversity of thought!

 

I fall into the Liberal club generally, but I'm not a perfect fit either. Given the labeling choice I choose Liberal only because most current Conservative policies are too disturbing to embrace. Conversely, Liberal environmentalism and rabid anti-gun stance is a bit extreme for my taste, and I flat out lost my official Liberal membership card when I saw the threat of Islam.

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It's one of the issues that really started to force me out of the liberal "mold" so to speak. I still consider myself "liberal" on quite a few issues, albeit in a more Jeffersonian way. It was startling, in fact, to see the ideals of religious freedom, free speech, and tolerance so quickly jettisoned in place of wishy-washy acceptance and treatment of a culture and belief system that is almost the anti-thesis to Enlightenment Age ideals. Criticism of Islam is quickly labeled as racist, and brushed away with "ya, well just look at how much the West has screwed up the Middle East". Those accusations are true, definitely, the West (reaching back to the British/Europe colonial days) definitely did serious damage to the Middle East. But to completely dismiss deep rooted conflicting ideals between two world perspectives is inviting trouble. Honest criticism should be as welcome of Islam as it is of Christianity. Many here on this site openly disparage and attack Christianity for being a bankrupt worldview. That same intellectual honesty should be equally applied.

 

Edit: And obviously when it is people receive death threats or get beheaded. Just ask Salman Rushdie or Charlie Hebdo.

I think part of the subtle attraction of going to a particular church week after week is the fact that you needn't expend any effort dissecting the issues of the day and drawing your own conclusions; you will be instructed as to what you should think. Such unthinking behavior cements you in as a group member and relieves you of doing any research or educating yourself in any way. There is comfort in this and no effort is required. You now "stand for something."

 

The same psychology is at work with political leanings. Once you identify as a "Liberal" or a "Conservative" the dynamic of identity changes just like it did in religion. Few are able to deviate very far from their party line and I bet most don't even want to entertain contrary opinions. If you simply MUST think for yourself, then please stop calling yourself a Liberal or Conservative as we have expectations and a simple labeling system that can't accommodate diversity of thought!

 

I fall into the Liberal club generally, but I'm not a perfect fit either. Given the labeling choice I choose Liberal only because most current Conservative policies are too disturbing to embrace. Conversely, Liberal environmentalism and rabid anti-gun stance is a bit extreme for my taste, and I flat out lost my official Liberal membership card when I saw the threat of Islam.

 

 

Excellent point! I dislike the whole mindset of "I identify as a Liberal, and therefore I must think this and that about stuff and never entertain a contrary notion about matters".

I just don't like the idea of buying "hook, line, and sinker" into any particular party / religion/ creed, etc.

 

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It is simply party line politics plain and simple, there is no logic behind it. I knew this, when I broke out from the "liberal belief" on this. I know the shitstorm that I have caused on here when I spoke negative about Islam and other liberals responses. I just find it all a tad bit ironic in the end, you complain about people talking negative and what it reall is, YET you are posting on an Ex-Christian website. What I hate most of hypocricy and liberals display a lot of it, when Christianity is free for all while Islam isn't. Islam is 10x worse than Christianity for crying out loud.

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It is simply party line politics plain and simple, there is no logic behind it. I knew this, when I broke out from the "liberal belief" on this. I know the shitstorm that I have caused on here when I spoke negative about Islam and other liberals responses. I just find it all a tad bit ironic in the end, you complain about people talking negative and what it reall is, YET you are posting on an Ex-Christian website. What I hate most of hypocricy and liberals display a lot of it, when Christianity is free for all while Islam isn't. Islam is 10x worse than Christianity for crying out loud.

 

 

And people always trot out the "Not all Moslems are violent" meme when they hear someone speaking ill of the religion. Well, guess what? No one in their right mind thinks that every single Moslem in the world is a wild-eyed, violence-prone maniac! It is just that, generally speaking, Islamic fanatics are a hell of a lot more violence-prone than their Christian counterparts, and constitute a larger percentage of their populace.

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^^ What he said... and I'm mostly liberal/socialist

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