disillusioned Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I want to preface this by saying that I am not an alarmist. Having said that, I really think that climate change is the great problem that people of my generation and younger will need to solve. I’m also starting to be of the opinion that it is not a problem that we actually will solve. This is depressing to be sure, but I honestly think that it is true. I just don’t see anybody in power (other than the pope) really taking it seriously, and I don’t think that this is likely to change. Why? Because the system isn’t set up for this kind of problem. The economy revolves around oil, and politics revolves around the economy. Also, politicians have short shelf lives, and they know it. I think that if we were to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels the economy would eventually recover, but it wouldn’t do so in time for the next election, which makes it not in the best interest of politicians to really take this problem seriously. There is also the fact that we have capitalism, and we like our energy. So oil sells, which means that people will continue to sell it unless someone says they can’t, but that won’t happen because of the aforementioned reasons. In other words, capitalism and democracy seem to me to entail that climate change will never be solved. This is a big problem, because we are approaching the point of no return. Depending on who you listen to, we may have already passed it. But whether it’s ten years away or a hundred years away, unless this is solved we will get there eventually, and that will be very problematic for humanity. It may even cause our extinction. And yet we aren’t really doing anything serious about it, mainly because it isn’t convenient. (I’m including myself in this, by the way.) Does anyone disagree? I’d really like to be convinced otherwise, but I honestly think that we are driving this truck straight off the cliff, because it’s a four-wheel drive, and we like to go fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I don't disagree or agree, really. I don't know that much about it. I remember in the seventies when we were warned about the coming new ice age. We were running out of oil too. I remember when President Carter was on TV wearing a sweater and telling us all to turn down our thermostats because we were going to be out of oil in ten years or so. I remember when the "global warming" talk was the rage, before it turned into "climate change" because things weren't warming up like the experts said it would. I've read stuff lately that tells me we are in a cooling period. I've read that is more antarctic ice than ever (well, maybe not ever). I've seen pictures of polar bears clinging to chunks of ice and I was told that it was because the ice was disappearing. In reality, polar bears are among the best swimmers among land animals, and swimming out to a chunk of ice and waiting for food to swim past is what polar bears do. So I don't know. I think most of the debates we hear about are politically driven, and/or ways to make big big money. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Relevant: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 25, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2015 The climate has turned into pure, polarized political football and both sides are ignoring science to push their agenda, be it a free pass for big oil or selling carbon credit green bullshit. It takes a lot of digging and at least a rudimentary understanding of climate science to reach a comfortable opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 To the extent climate change is caused by human activity (e.g., overpopulation, burning fossil fuels, etc.), we should do something about it. To the extent climate change is due to non-human factors (e.g., Earth climate cycles, sun's energy output, etc.), there is likely nothing we can do about it, except adapt to the change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I'm pretty sure that this was in the destiny of this planet the moment that our ancestors evolved our native powers to exploit our environment in such an effective way. We developed the native capacity to dig up the fossil fuels from the ground and burn them injecting them into the atmosphere. The human species is about 200,000 years old, and human over-population and global climate change was inevitable at that time. I think that climate change is pretty-much written into our genetics, and there's not much we can do about it. We have always disrupted our environment and cannot stop ourselves. Before we were burning fossil fuels, we were burning wood -- this is a difference in degree and not in kind. I doubt, however, that climate change will make our species go "extinct" -- I think that the current human population will always have descendents on this planet, until the planet gets hit by a big enough asteroid. Life may become very uncomfortable, and the population may be shrunk involuntarily. But we are a very intelligent and adaptable species (to a fault, as we've seen), and thus there will always be a collection of survivors. The post-apocalyptic "Mad Max" scenario is already here, it is just localized, to places where there are severe droughts, desertification, warfare and starvation. What is now localized is going to be become more widespread, but some of you will have descendents that can tolerate it. As for me, I will become extinct, because I have no descendents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Thanks everyone for the perspectives. I agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far. I think most (educated) people agree that greenhouse gas levels are rising, and that this is not a good thing. Whether it's a problem right now or in a few decades is more of a contentious issue. What we really seem to have difficulty agreeing on is what we should do about it. And I don't think that this will change. Also, Llwellyn raises a very good point about population levels. Even if climate change were not an issue, current population trends cannot continue indefinitely. We are running out of space and food. I also agree that humanity will probably not become extinct, but I think we are due for a significant reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Overpopulation is and will become the fundamental cause of human problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Climate change or not, it makes sense not to pollute your own environment. I wouldn't shit on the floor in my house, so why does humanity poison the planet? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Thanks everyone for the perspectives. I agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far. I think most (educated) people agree that greenhouse gas levels are rising, and that this is not a good thing. Whether it's a problem right now or in a few decades is more of a contentious issue. What we really seem to have difficulty agreeing on is what we should do about it. And I don't think that this will change. Also, Llwellyn raises a very good point about population levels. Even if climate change were not an issue, current population trends cannot continue indefinitely. We are running out of space and food. I also agree that humanity will probably not become extinct, but I think we are due for a significant reduction. And drinkable water. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Climate change or not, it makes sense not to pollute your own environment. I wouldn't shit on the floor in my house, so why does humanity poison the planet? This is what bugs me. Climate change is a very nebulous concept that may or may not be fixable, but we can definitely stop factories from polluting our waterways, Monsanto from stealing the rights/patents to every seed we grow for food and poisoning our soil and food, massive corporations from dumping toxic waste near neighborhoods, and on and on. Those things are completely fixable and we don't do it because of the almighty dollar and power-hungry politicians! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 We have corporations doing very unnatural things like deforestation in the rainforests, tons of very toxic chemicals being poured onto the soil and plants constantly so that they'll look pretty and give us less weeds and bugs, islands of plastic and other trash in the oceans, nuclear reactors leaking into the ocean and air, and (in my opinion) way too damn many people on the planet. Climate is the result of many forces like sunspot cycles and the varying kinds of radiation we get from the sun as a result, the amount of vegetation over large areas, volcanoes, ocean currents, ozone levels, and greenhouse gases. Only some of that is human controlled. But we seriously need to change some things, and the poisoning of the land and water is the most easy to change. I quit using herbicides and most pesticides (except for pyrethrins on ants that invade my home). Before we moved, I had a lush garden that thrived without industrial chemicals because I understand which natural plants the pests like, and which the predators like. Leaving those in the garden instead of pulling them as weeds was a win-win. I replaced my grass lawn with clover to avoid the 1950s perfect American lawn routine and all the upkeep that takes. But the farmers, neighbors, and landscapers continue to pour on the weed and bug killing chemicals. We've lived like it will all magically disappear, but it isn't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Monsanto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Im resigned to the fact that we will end up killing our own species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Im resigned to the fact that we will end up killing our own species. Why not? We have already caused the extinction of so many other species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Damn. It seems no one really disagrees that we're not going to fix this. This puts us at a very interesting place in our evolution. We are now the cause of all of the biggest threats that our species is facing, and we're aware of it. But we're not going to do anything about it, because we can't be bothered. God we're smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Disillusioned, The situation's actually much worse than you might think from just the Earth-related data. Revised and up-to-date modelling of planetary habitable zones have called into question the assumption that the Earth sits in our Sun's sweet spot - in the center of the solar system's hab zone. Apparently it doesn't. Our planet is now calculated to sit right on the inner edge of the habitable zone, dangerously close to the runaway greenhouse tipping point. http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.6674 http://www3.geoSC.psu.edu/~ruk15/planets/ So even if every data point measured on or relating only to the planet Earth is wrong and/or is part of a conspiracy, we should still takes steps to keep this planet's temperature safely within habitable margins. . . . But can we be bothered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Disillusioned, The situation's actually much worse than you might think from just the Earth-related data. Revised and up-to-date modelling of planetary habitable zones have called into question the assumption that the Earth sits in our Sun's sweet spot - in the center of the solar system's hab zone. Apparently it doesn't. Our planet is now calculated to sit right on the inner edge of the habitable zone, dangerously close to the runaway greenhouse tipping point. http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.6674 http://www3.geoSC.psu.edu/~ruk15/planets/ So even if every data point measured on or relating only to the planet Earth is wrong and/or is part of a conspiracy, we should still takes steps to keep this planet's temperature safely within habitable margins. . . . But can we be bothered? No, we'll just turn our focus on how to get everyone to 442b, which is right in the middle of the sweet spot. Scientists love a challenge and don't care about the ramifications, so here we go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Okay how about a realistic solution? Here is an idea - let's build a large, maneuverable space station/ship and put it into solar orbit. Let its shadow fall onto Earth and physically reduce the level of sunlight. Perhaps we would need more than one and this fleet of ships will allow us to directly control how much Earth heats up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Okay how about a realistic solution? Here is an idea - let's build a large, maneuverable space station/ship and put it into solar orbit. Let it's shadow fall onto Earth and physically reduce the level of sunlight. Perhaps we would need more than one and this fleet of ships will allow us to directly control how much Earth heats up. Umm... realistic, MM? Would you be happy to let somebody else control the amount of sunlight falling on your nation's fields, forests, cities, shorelines, etc.? On your glaciers, lakes, snowfields, icecaps and reservoirs? On your deserts, scrub lands and prairies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Okay how about a realistic solution? Here is an idea - let's build a large, maneuverable space station/ship and put it into solar orbit. Let its shadow fall onto Earth and physically reduce the level of sunlight. Perhaps we would need more than one and this fleet of ships will allow us to directly control how much Earth heats up. Simpsons did it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Okay how about a realistic solution? Here is an idea - let's build a large, maneuverable space station/ship and put it into solar orbit. Let it's shadow fall onto Earth and physically reduce the level of sunlight. Perhaps we would need more than one and this fleet of ships will allow us to directly control how much Earth heats up. Umm... realistic, MM? Would you be happy to let somebody else control the amount of sunlight falling on your nation's fields, forests, cities, shorelines, etc.? On your glaciers, lakes, snowfields, icecaps and reservoirs? On your deserts, scrub lands and prairies? As an alternative to extinction? Sure. I'm not talking about a 100% eclipse but we could get a small percentage of reduction. Eventually we are going to reach the point where somebody had better do something or else people are going to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 This suggestion would seem to require cooperation between governments on a global scale unlike anything we've seen before. I'm not sure that's in the cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Okay how about a realistic solution? Here is an idea - let's build a large, maneuverable space station/ship and put it into solar orbit. Let its shadow fall onto Earth and physically reduce the level of sunlight. Perhaps we would need more than one and this fleet of ships will allow us to directly control how much Earth heats up. I know how to populate the space station. A simple formula: 1) I get to go. 2) Cute girls. 3) Other smart people that can maintain the systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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