What's The Point?

[laura]

Asimov, What you said holds not even a tinge of truth to it. You're other two previous responses of "So" lead me to believe that perhaps you're not particularly interested, that you don't genuinely care about the topic, or that you and I simply are not thinking on the same type of plane. Please don't misunderstand me and think that I put myself above you; I by no means do. Your responses are fine; say what you think, but I would personally prefer that you consider the validadity of what your saying first.

 

My questions (so?) were because I failed to even see the point of what you were saying.

 

So what if life is objectively meaningless?

 

You believe in God, don't you? Wouldn't that garner an objective meaning to life? If not, why?

 

 

I just don't like the way existentials think.

First, so that you know, I am now an atheist. I just haven't changed my logo thing. Sorry about that. I just don't see the point or use in believing in something that can't be proven, even "just in case". Anyway, I never thought of myself as an existentialist thinker. I looked up the definition, and I do see how I am thinking existentially on this matter. Still, whatever it is the way i'm thinking, I will be thinking the way I will always be thinking. I am me. (if that makes any sense)

"So what is life is objectively meaningless"(or pointless-same thing)?

Well-If there is no meaning to anything, then nothing I or anyone else does has any value either good or bad. Is this depressing? At first glance, yes. .....but the more I think about it, maybe it's a "glass half empty/glass half full" scenerio. Thankyou for pointing this out.

[laura]

I hear ya Laura.. I see your point, there is none. All the replies still end with the cold hard brutal "ok, but, what's the POINT?"

 

 

EXACTLY

[Antlerman]

Meaning of any kind is in perception. Whether it is in good meaning or "no meaning", both are arrived at through what we are choosing to see. So "no meaning" is also subjective. Do you want to be happy, or do you want to despair?

I understand the point that you are trying to make, and I definititly agree that meaning (just as morality) is subjective. Unfortunately, that leads me exactly to my conclusion that there is no meaning. Let me give you an example: Person A believes there is meaning to life. Whatever that meaning IS is obviously subject to him the individual. Person B believes there is meaning, and he too has his own subjective definition of what the meaning is. This can go on and on. This principal that it is all subjective, only prooves to me that there is no meaning. Meaning to me seems like it should be a concrete thing. Let me go further. Let's say "no meaning" (as you put it ) is also subjective. This means that there either is or is not meaning. But it is subjective, so not only do I not know what the meaning IS (if there is one, theoretically), but now I do not even know if there IS meaning-because it is subjective. This only leads me further to my conclusion that there is no meaning. period. All of this is why in my first post, I felt like I had already answered my own question, and that I'm really wasting your time. I suppose it is my neverending curiousity about what others will say, and my desire for a magical (but I believe non-existent) answer.

You are describing what I believe Sartre refers to as the confrontation with the Void? Most people live their lives in fear of this, but the confrontation with meaninglessness is actually the moment of liberation. We are left with only choice. We make our meaning, for ourselves, or we choose to consider the meaning of this to be despair, and choose to never move past it. In either case, we are choosing.

 

To insist that there is some sort of concrete external construct that defines meaning is something that was created by humans to deal with the angst of despair. It's the unveiling of this that you seem confronted with. You now have a choice, to live and be free to live life with awareness, or to choose to deny life. For me, the meaning of life is Life. I find great joy in life, as I accept it for what it is - it is All there is and it is full of wonder once we have moved past the masks, confronted it, then embraced it for all that it is. Nothing yet Everything. We are a part of life and that is joy and wonder. Life itself is the meaning of life.

[Samurai Tailor]

There is no 'The Point' anyway, at least in the sense of a philosophical axiom.

 

Even the Christian, who might answer the question "What is the point of existence?" with "To serve God," can be further undermined by asking "What is the point of God (or serving God)?"

[Reality Amplifier]

I understand the point that you are trying to make, and I definititly agree that meaning (just as morality) is subjective. Unfortunately, that leads me exactly to my conclusion that there is no meaning.

How do you know your subjective conclusion that "there is no meaning" holds any intrinsic value if your conclusion itself is subjective? Hmm?

 

Let me give you an example: Person A believes there is meaning to life. Whatever that meaning IS is obviously subject to him the individual. Person B believes there is meaning, and he too has his own subjective definition of what the meaning is. This can go on and on. This principal that it is all subjective, only prooves to me that there is no meaning.

Consider this question: is the lack of meaning meaningful to you? Why? There are different ways to look at your topic, but what you seem to be grasping for is some sort of cosmic, metaphysical "meaning" that will magically overide our subjective experience and reveal some transcendent, objective meaning to our existence. Mankind has been searching for that kind of meaning for quite some time, and nobody seems to have come up with a universally accepted answer. Maybe you will discover that meaning, if you keep at it long enough. Maybe it doesn't exist at all. Maybe you will find that the continued exploration and discovery of such issues is meaning enough for you in your lifetime. Maybe it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter. Who knows?

 

Meaning to me seems like it should be a concrete thing. Let me go further. Let's say "no meaning" (as you put it ) is also subjective. This means that there either is or is not meaning.

But it is subjective, so not only do I not know what the meaning IS (if there is one, theoretically), but now I do not even know if there IS meaning-because it is subjective. This only leads me further to my conclusion that there is no meaning. period.

I have yet to discern some cosmic meaning. I see our existence as a fortuitous, glorious and rare cosmic contingency in the vast cosmos of the universe. We did not have to be here at all. Yet here we are. We are star stuff, observing star stuff. Billions of years from now, we will be star stuff. And yet I still face the reality of our existence with a wonder of it all, even considering that I may not ever uncover any ultimate "meaning" to it all. Why? My acceptance and continued search of the nature of reality around me does not, in any way, devalue or make my existence any less meaningful to me. Of course, this is just my subjective opinion.

[pitchu]

Laura,

 

I think one of the dastardly consequences of following the Christian model is that it botched this whole "point" thing you're discussing by intrinsically making "winning" the point of living.

 

The idea that the point of human life is to serve god well enough (through accumulating celestial brownie points) that we become victorious in getting to join him in heaven is extrapolated into so many analogous human activities, it's no wonder we all get depressed and go a little batty:

 

(Now, I really enjoy watching football, so take this next for what it's worth.) The point of playing a football game is to get the ball past the goal line. Score a touchdown and make 6 points. Then there's the extra point attempt (2 points if it's run, not kicked). Field goal, 3 points. Make enough of these points enough times and the team wins enough games to go to the Super Bowl. Then to Disneyland, if they win. Heaven! But nobody remembers the losers. What hell for them! What's the point, for them?!

 

I can pretty much guarantee you that no Super Bowl winner examining that (atrocious) ring on his finger every 15 seconds is going to be stumped by the question, "What's the point of life?" "Shee-it, man!" he'll say, waggling before your face the hand with the curdled metal lump on the finger, "Take a look at that , A-hole!"

 

Blue ribbons, trophies, plaques, certificates, medals, angels' wings. Beating back demons, beating cancer, beating someone at their own game....

 

Analogies abound, but you get the idea: it's drilled into us that the point is to win. Not just everybody can do that. Not just everybody, every breathing moment, can revel in the euphoria of victory, wherein they see the point of life with dazzling clarity. So what's left for us consistent losers?

 

Well, we can see it another way. We can see that the point of life for non-human species appears largely to be about relationship: their taking from and giving to other life forms and elements; symbiosis. Without bibles or lore or the exhortations of political aspirants to cerebrate upon, they play out the point of living by filling their unique niche in interdependent relationship. Maybe it could be the same for humans...? Except, of course, humans have to think about it.

 

[I Broke Free]

I enjoyed your response Pitchu. I have been reading this thread with interest, but I did not feel I had anything to contribute. To be honest, I have never felt the need to give a life a point. I suppose I have always just felt that by virtue of being an individual capable of experience life, I had already “won” something. The fact that I am human and capable of even pondering this question makes me feel like the winner of the lottery.

[Skankboy]

Without bibles or lore or the exhortations of political aspirants to cerebrate upon, they play out the point of living by filling their unique niche in interdependent relationship.

Couldn't have said it better...

 

[Aqua Kitty]

Sorry if adding a TV quote to this discussion seems trite, but it's a quote that means a lot to me. So if the trite shoe fits, I guess I'll wear it.

 

It's from Angel:

 

Angel: Well, I guess I kind of worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.

 

Kate Lockley: And now you do?

 

Angel: Not all of it. All I want to do is help. I wanna help because people shouldn't suffer as they do. Because, if there isn't any bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

[SBeeland]

I wondered about "the point" through my whole teenage life and all it got me in the end was a week in a mental hospital. So I came to the conclusion that we make our own point, whatever it might be, and it doesn't matter how unimportant that point may be to others because they're not you and you're not them.

[MQTA]

http://www.alanwatts.com/ra/lifemusic.swf

[scepticjoe]

 

I think that the question I originally asked wasn't rather a question, But a statement of the hopelessness and pointlessness that I feel in this life. So, I suppose I've wasted your time. My apologies.

 

If you are depressed and feel that things are hopeless and life has no meaning, you may be what doctors call "clinically depressed." Many people who are depressed respond well to medication such as Prozac. Consider talking to your doctor or a psychiatrist about it. You can try it and see how it works for you.

[DanInPA]

Hi Laura!

 

I think the "meaning" in each of our lives is determined individually, and can be whatever we want it to be. For me, it's simply to live fairly happily, relatively free from conflict, and able to provide for my basic needs.

 

We are all different, and view life situations differently.

 

Probably none of us can tell you exactly how to give your life meaning, because it's such an individual thing.

 

The only thing I can say is good luck, try not to sweat the small stuff, and aspire to be happy. Only YOU can make you content, not your job, not your family, etc...

 

PS- You are certainly NOT wasting our time. We're here to listen, if nothing else.

 

Wishing you well,

 

Dan

[Curtdude]

Hi Laura,

 

Great thread topic.

 

I'd add to the other points my fellow apostates have made that we can create meaning in life by our action.

 

What if our parents, extended families and communities down through the ages had turned their backs on making the best out of, for the most part of humanity, a crappy poor existence? We certainly would not have the luxury of leisure to contemplate our meaningless, empty lives. We'd be too busy in the fields, or in the mines, or in some rich dude's chateau working our collective asses off.

 

And the bad decisions of our ancestors have caused us to suffer: slavery, wars, the usual list of evils.

 

We have benefited (or suffered) collectively from the efforts (actions) of others.

 

What I mean is that we can give meaning to our lives by making the planet a better place for our loved ones and our communities. For everybody. I know, it sounds utopian, but we've all pretty much agreed that there is no outside deity giving us the guidelines of existence. It's up to us. That's not utopian: that is how life works.

 

Pleasure, stability, love, companionship...these may not outlive us through our souls, but they do outlive us in others.

 

The meaning we have is based on our actions, not on our intentions. (And, yes, this is an existentialist idea.) Sartre is one of my faves.

[laura]

I understand the point that you are trying to make, and I definititly agree that meaning (just as morality) is subjective. Unfortunately, that leads me exactly to my conclusion that there is no meaning.

How do you know your subjective conclusion that "there is no meaning" holds any intrinsic value if your conclusion itself is subjective? Hmm?

 

I am simply stating what I have observed. This is the only thing that makes complete sense to me.

 

Let me give you an example: Person A believes there is meaning to life. Whatever that meaning IS is obviously subject to him the individual. Person B believes there is meaning, and he too has his own subjective definition of what the meaning is. This can go on and on. This principal that it is all subjective, only prooves to me that there is no meaning.

Consider this question: is the lack of meaning meaningful to you?

 

Sometimes, subconciously, yes, (I suppose it's some sort of hero complex) even though it is completely illogical and serves no purpose. For me to say that meaninglesssness has meaning would be a foolish oxymoron on my part.

 

Why? There are different ways to look at your topic, but what you seem to be grasping for is some sort of cosmic, metaphysical "meaning" that will magically overide our subjective experience and reveal some transcendent, objective meaning to our existence. Mankind has been searching for that kind of meaning for quite some time, and nobody seems to have come up with a universally accepted answer. Maybe you will discover that meaning, if you keep at it long enough.

 

If there were a meaning to be discovered, and people have been searching for it since the dawn of existence, it surely would have been discovered and agreed upon by now.

 

Maybe it doesn't exist at all. Maybe you will find that the continued exploration and discovery of such issues is meaning enough for you in your lifetime. Maybe it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter. Who knows?

 

Meaning to me seems like it should be a concrete thing. Let me go further. Let's say "no meaning" (as you put it ) is also subjective. This means that there either is or is not meaning.

But it is subjective, so not only do I not know what the meaning IS (if there is one, theoretically), but now I do not even know if there IS meaning-because it is subjective. This only leads me further to my conclusion that there is no meaning. period.

I have yet to discern some cosmic meaning. I see our existence as a fortuitous, glorious and rare cosmic contingency in the vast cosmos of the universe. We did not have to be here at all. Yet here we are. We are star stuff, observing star stuff. Billions of years from now, we will be star stuff. And yet I still face the reality of our existence with a wonder of it all, even considering that I may not ever uncover any ultimate "meaning" to it all. Why? My acceptance and continued search of the nature of reality around me does not, in any way, devalue or make my existence any less meaningful to me. Of course, this is just my subjective opinion.

 

You're right, it is your subjective opinion. Maybe all opinions are subjective. I just observe and come to conclusions that make sense to me. That is all I can do.

 

 

Meaning of any kind is in perception. Whether it is in good meaning or "no meaning", both are arrived at through what we are choosing to see. So "no meaning" is also subjective. Do you want to be happy, or do you want to despair?

I understand the point that you are trying to make, and I definititly agree that meaning (just as morality) is subjective. Unfortunately, that leads me exactly to my conclusion that there is no meaning. Let me give you an example: Person A believes there is meaning to life. Whatever that meaning IS is obviously subject to him the individual. Person B believes there is meaning, and he too has his own subjective definition of what the meaning is. This can go on and on. This principal that it is all subjective, only prooves to me that there is no meaning. Meaning to me seems like it should be a concrete thing. Let me go further. Let's say "no meaning" (as you put it ) is also subjective. This means that there either is or is not meaning. But it is subjective, so not only do I not know what the meaning IS (if there is one, theoretically), but now I do not even know if there IS meaning-because it is subjective. This only leads me further to my conclusion that there is no meaning. period. All of this is why in my first post, I felt like I had already answered my own question, and that I'm really wasting your time. I suppose it is my neverending curiousity about what others will say, and my desire for a magical (but I believe non-existent) answer.

You are describing what I believe Sartre refers to as the confrontation with the Void? Most people live their lives in fear of this, but the confrontation with meaninglessness is actually the moment of liberation. We are left with only choice. We make our meaning, for ourselves, or we choose to consider the meaning of this to be despair, and choose to never move past it. In either case, we are choosing.

 

To insist that there is some sort of concrete external construct that defines meaning is something that was created by humans to deal with the angst of despair. It's the unveiling of this that you seem confronted with. You now have a choice, to live and be free to live life with awareness, or to choose to deny life. For me, the meaning of life is Life. I find great joy in life, as I accept it for what it is - it is All there is and it is full of wonder once we have moved past the masks, confronted it, then embraced it for all that it is. Nothing yet Everything. We are a part of life and that is joy and wonder. Life itself is the meaning of life.

So, basically your'e saying "life for the sake of life". Our very existence gives meaning to our existence. A very interesting point which I will have to think about.

[monsterfeets]

I used to worry about this, a lot. As a christian, before I was christian and even now sometimes. But after arguing with myself back and forth for a few hours I always seem to come to the same conclusion. I don't need a reason or a point to exist because I already exist. I have a choice, enjoy it, or don't. I choose to enjoy it. As to what it all means? It means that I am alive, I am experiencing things good and bad, and that is a pretty awesome thing regardless of where I end up or who is keeping track. Sure I wonder sometimes about what's out there, but that's just part of 'enjoying it'. We can also make a difference in other peoples lives, just by existing we mean something, we affect the world we live in. Even if ultimately none of us will matter, we certainly do here and now.

 

Although if you really feel something is missing, try and find something that makes you happy, that you are passionate about. Few things give people as much meaning as falling completely in love with something you can immerse yourself into. For me it's art, everyone has their own 'thing', I think. And if you can find it, your life will have meaning. Is there anything that really stirs you? Music, movies, books, animals, kids, nature, other people? It's a big ol' amazing world out there, there is plenty of meaning to be found.

[NotBlinded]

http://www.alanwatts.com/ra/lifemusic.swf

Damn...I just love it when you post Alan Watts site!

[MQTA]

I first found it HERE I believe. "here kitty kitty"