What's With The Anti-catholicism?

[The Sage Nabooru]

I remember growing up in the LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod - there are actually three major Lutheran synods in the US, but my grandmother insisted that my family always go to an LCMS church, because all the other synods are "wrong") and going to confirmation class when I was 13. The first thing the pastor taught us about on the first day of class was how Lutherans had it "right" and while other churches were still "saved" and "real Christians", except for two: The Mormons, and the Catholics.

 

The Mormons I could understand, because honestly, that is some weird shit going on in Utah. But the majority of the discussion was based around how Catholics were actually anti-Christian and therefore dangerous and unsaved (hence, of Satan). They were not following God at all, and the Pope knew that. They were just an evil conspiracy, destined for Hell. (Strangely, while the Eastern Orthodox Churches share many of the same beliefs as Catholics, they weren't to burn for eternity - probably because they broke off from the original Catholic Church, an action so righteous in the Lutheran God's eyes that they earned salvation despite their beliefs.)

 

Now I'm a diehard St. Louisan, and I would venture to say that most of the people here are or were Catholic. Downtown a Catholic church (usually very beautiful, grand Gothic structures*) can be found on every street, and no yard, especially in the Hill and Dogtown (the Italian and Irish neighborhoods, respectively) is complete without the Marian statue - with the boxwood hedge, of course, cut around it to provide a sort of perfectly manicured grotto.

 

Consequently, I've known a lot of Catholics, and very religious Catholics at that. I'm talking holy water font in the living room, rosary hanging on a nail next to the bed, crucifix with palm leaves braided behind it, and a picture of John Paul II on the refridgerator, if not framed next to the statue of Jesus on the wall shelves. And, despite their devotion, none of them - none - has ever tried to convert me, as opposed to the Southern Baptist and Pentecostal and Superchurch congregations out here in the miserable suburbs. They've never come to the door with brochures or shallow fast talk, they've never sent me mailers about how great their church is because it's "Biblically sound" with 2,000 members in a single building. I've never had to listen to a Catholic say "But Catholics are the REAL Christians!" and "If you don't listen to the Pope, you'll go to hell!"

 

Since I am a fried-fish aficionado, I do frequent the Catholic churches for their fish fries during Lent. Although I did pay for my fish (in the form of cash and occasionally indigestion), the nuns serving it were always very pleasant and sweet and didn't give half a damn whether I was Catholic, Christian, or purple with three arms. (Whereas if I attend the pork sausage dinners at my grandmother's church, I have to fork over some serious bucks for a non-refundable ticket AND prove I have some connection with the church.) I've been to Catholic hospitals and Catholic Charities, and while the care was top-notch I was never made to listen to some sermon.

 

Overall, excepting, of course, the sex abuse scandal, I admire Catholics, at least compared to other, fundamentalist Protestant sects. I've attended Catholic church services, and when I don't head up to their Communion (only Christians confirmed for the Eucharist can partake of it, according to Catholic law, and I respect that), at only one time did anybody ask me, "Why aren't you going up for Communion?" "Because I'm not Catholic. "Ohh, okay." and that was the end of it. Whereas at my grandparents' Lutheran church, not taking Communion results in a whispered interrogation during the rest of the service.

 

But what I remember mostly was my grandmother's strict stance regarding Catholics. To give you an idea, her favorite child (my aunt) married a Catholic in 1980 and began practicing the Catholic faith. My grandmother completely cut her off. They didn't speak for over a year, until my aunt and her husband (my uncle) gave in and joined a Lutheran church (Missouri Synod, of course). My mother, aunt, and uncle, in their youth, were forbidden by my grandmother to play with the Catholic children in the neighborhood or even talk to them. She told me that all Catholics believe Mary is God and worship her, and that you can never pray to God, only to Mary. Nuns, she told me, served the specific purpose of fulfilling the sexual needs of priests, who always raped them. Catholics were wicked. We should avoid them at all costs.

 

Why do so many Protestants take this stance? The Catholic church is the only church that has sworn off proselytizing among Jews - a big step, in my opinion. I admired JP2's attempts to establish communication between the Church and other religious groups and leaders, such as the Dalai Lama, as opposed to, say, the Patriach of Moscow, who consistently refused to meet with him, even when offered an opportunity to, and condemned the Papal visit to Ukraine. And hey, the guy forgave the Turk who tried to shoot him, even visited him in prison. I have to admit, that's a noble thing to do. Overall, I would much rather have Catholic friends than some fundamentalist Protestant friends who are always prodding me into going to their youth group and having prayer-orgasms (and, of course, telling me to break off with my Catholic friends because they worship the devil). It amazes me how the fundie churches proselytize among Catholics because they're not "real Christians" and need to be "saved" from Catholicism. Where does all the Catholic hate come from? I realize people on here have had run-ins with Catholics and Catholicism, but if I had a choice as to which half of Christianity would exist and which would be disestablished, I'd go with the Catholic half any day.

 

 

 

*For a really cool church, go to the Basilica of St. Louis, what we natives call the "New Cathedral". It's done in a combination of Byzantine, Romanesque, and Gothic styles, covered almost entirely inside with Mosaics (the largest collection of Mosaics in the world), and beautiful stained glass. I go there just to look at it.)

[Japedo]

I'm not clear on your direct question, but I think you're asking why Catholics aren't liked by other Christians?

 

My answer:

 

Catholicism is the base of all Christianity. Most Protestants don't acknowledge or believe that but it's true.

 

Many people of the Protestant sects believe that the Catholic Church is harboring the anti-Christ. They also believe they will take a huge role in Armageddon in allowing the anti-Christ to come to power, many also believe the pope himself is the anti-Christ. Protestants also point out that Catholics pray to Mary (other gods) and saints and is a form of false worship. Their Church set up of confession, pope, bishops and what not are also viewed as evil. Protestants believe they have a direct link to god and the Catholic Church tricks people into relying upon man to clean them of their sin. The strong anti-Catholic sediment isn't as bad as it used to be. One of the main issues of President Kennedy running was he was Catholic and at the time it was viewed as a fault. He ended up winning (barely) but in doing that, he put a stop to some prejudices that were formerly held by the majority.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

THAT'S RIGHT DONT YOU DUM DUM AYTHEEYISTS NO NUTHIN??? THE CATHLIC CHURCH IS THE HORE OF BABBLEON!!! SHES GONNA SEEDUCE THE CHILDRENS OF GOD AWAY FROM HIM AND INTO THE BOWLS OF HELLFIRE!!!

 

Well that's what I heard anyway.

 

[pandora]

Heh heh... I grew up Catholic, so I experienced the prejudice from Protestant Christians in my youth. So much so that I was eventually converted to evangelical protestantism in middle school.

 

The evangelicals' main gripe is that Catholics "worship" Mary, say repititve, chantlike prayers, and confess to priests. Most Christians I came into contact with did not really buy into the whore of Babylong thing... but they strongly resented Cathlics ritualism and tradition. Most of my friends were convinced Catholics were going to Hell because of all this. My MIL thinks this way, and is convinced I was never saved because I was mostly Catholic and less Protestant when I first met her son, so of course, I never believed the "right" way and thus I fell away from the faith easily and led her son away with me.

 

I still see a lot of misunderstanding of Catholicism on this board even by ex-Christians. I don't care, but you guys should know that just because you were Christians it doesn't mean you can get into the minds of all Christian sects.

 

Of course, Catholics don't worship Mary... Mary is merely a role model that one may call on in prayers, just as one can call on any dead person in prayers so that they may "intercede" for us. It makes sense to call on Jesus' mother to get her to convince her son or God to do something for you... at least it makes sense if you believe dead people are still alive, and that those in heaven can hear prayers.

 

Most do not believe in the crazy stuff the Vatican puts out. Most do believe the Pope is infalliable, but the catechism only says in areas of doctrine only, not in personal areas. Most Catholics are democrats, use birth control, and don't believe that all non-Catholics are going to Hell. Catholic nuns are very liberal in belief, but the Vatican doesn't let that little tidbit out in the open.

 

Of course, there are occasional Catholic wackos that are more Catholic than the Pope, but your average American Catholic is a very different breed of Christian than perceived. I guess the proper term is lukewarm. LOL

 

Catholics also dont have nearly as hard of a time deconverting or losing most of their faith as Protestants... the beliefs just aren't that rigid to begin with, and there is a certain tolerance for variety of belief (at least on the local level) in the modern Catholic church that Protestants don't have.

 

My Catholic friends and I have had a relatively easy time decoverting compared to my husband, who was raised conservative evangelic Protestant and our other friends in that vein.

[pandora]

Sage-- so yes, your experience is pretty common with Catholics. You seem to have picked up on what is different about Catholics. Most don't give a shit about other Christians... some do, but usually they only do so to explain why they believe what they believe and why tradition is important to them.

 

Catholicism is very different in style... the rituals and such really are comforting if you grew up with them. Mass doesn't make me cringe like a Protestant service does. Granted, I don't believe in it anymore, but it's just... cool. I have always said Catholics have a monopoly on beautiful churches... and it is the truth. My huusband was amazed the first time he stepped into one, and it wasn't even a very pretty one!

[The Sage Nabooru]

Of course, there are occasional Catholic wackos that are more Catholic than the Pope

 

*coughcoughmelgibsoncoughcough*

 

Honestly, isn't Mel Gibson's little personal church not recognized by the Holy See because it's just too strict/conservative/nutty?

[Amethyst]

I also grew up in a Mo. Synod Lutheran Church in MN. They were very prejudiced (and most of the people I know from that church, not including my dad, still are). Their complaints were that the Catholic church "worshipped" Saints and Mary.

 

When I went back there a few times after college, I noticed that there was a polite but prejudiced attitude towards my stepmom, who is Catholic. They won't allow her to take communion even though she is Christian, but the Catholic church will allow my dad to take communion because they are married. And some people gave her the cold shoulder while smiling politely (I hate polite prejudice!) And she doesn't say anything bad about them, she just takes it.

 

It's all so stupid and childish, really. Very much like saying "Neener neener neener, you aren't Just Like Us so we won't let you play with our ball. We won't kick you out of the clubhouse entirely, but we still won't play with you."

[The Sage Nabooru]

Catholicism is very different in style... the rituals and such really are comforting if you grew up with them. Mass doesn't make me cringe like a Protestant service does. Granted, I don't believe in it anymore, but it's just... cool. I have always said Catholics have a monopoly on beautiful churches... and it is the truth. My huusband was amazed the first time he stepped into one, and it wasn't even a very pretty one!

 

Yeah, if I were raised Catholic, I'd bet I'd still go to mass, just for the prettyness of the rituals and the scent of the incense and to gaze around at the church. But then I was raised Protestant and had to go to ugly cheap-looking dated 60's-style churches with fake wood paneling lining the interior and worn burgundy carpet on the floor with the distinct scent of 30-year-old coffee stains. Where's the fun in that?

[pandora]

Of course, there are occasional Catholic wackos that are more Catholic than the Pope

 

*coughcoughmelgibsoncoughcough*

 

Honestly, isn't Mel Gibson's little personal church not recognized by the Holy See because it's just too strict/conservative/nutty?

 

 

LOL Yes, I believe so.

 

The only truly evangelical Catholics I have met are from his little weirdo church. They are very conservative and do everything in Latin and reject all the Vatican II reforms.

[woodsmoke]

This:

 

The Mormons I could understand, because honestly, that is some weird shit going on in Utah.

 

In conjunction with this:

 

I still see a lot of misunderstanding of Catholicism on this board even by ex-Christians. I don't care, but you guys should know that just because you were Christians it doesn't mean you can get into the minds of all Christian sects.

 

Speaks volumes.

[pandora]

This:

 

The Mormons I could understand, because honestly, that is some weird shit going on in Utah.

 

In conjunction with this:

 

I still see a lot of misunderstanding of Catholicism on this board even by ex-Christians. I don't care, but you guys should know that just because you were Christians it doesn't mean you can get into the minds of all Christian sects.

 

Speaks volumes.

 

Um... I didn't say the first thing you quoted. Sage did.

 

 

 

........

[Vixentrox]

I remember coming home from private Lutheren school about...7 or 8th grade. I was exclaiming to my mom about how grandma and gradpa were going to hell becuase they were Catholic. Yes, the Lutheren Church certainly preached it.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I remember coming home from private Lutheren school about...7 or 8th grade. I was exclaiming to my mom about how grandma and gradpa were going to hell becuase they were Catholic. Yes, the Lutheren Church certainly preached it.

 

Oh, I went to a private Lutheran school, too, for the shittiest education any institution could offer. I had/have ADD , and they basically told my mother to put me into a public school because they weren't equipped to deal with it.

 

I can still remember my teachers.......

[Dianka]

Consequently, I've known a lot of Catholics, and very religious Catholics at that. I'm talking holy water font in the living room, rosary hanging on a nail next to the bed, crucifix with palm leaves braided behind it, and a picture of John Paul II on the refridgerator, if not framed next to the statue of Jesus on the wall shelves.

 

Wow, you just described my mom's house down to the palms. Only, our holy water is in a plastic tray shaped like an angel hanging on the wall. It's about time I moved out.

 

Really it's probably the same animosity that split the church during the reformation. I think the Satan worshipping thing came directly from Luther.

 

Back before I was saved - or well, whatever that was (lead poisoning) I had a talk with my Christian clique about Catholicism and they were saying that Catholics were wrong for worshipping saints because they were considered demons on Satan's payroll. Pandora's right, I think Mary's place in the church was more honor than worshipping.

 

I think Catholics are a lot like modern Jews. They just go to church during the holidays and sometimes when they feel ashamed that they haven't been sober enough to attend church on a Sunday morning in six months (that may be a Euro thing though). I was at a Jewish funeral a few years ago and when the Rabbi was around everyone was so proper and muttered a few Yiddish words. After the Rabbi left they busted out the pork and wine, there were even a few swears. Yeah, we're like the Jews.

 

There are a lot of Catholic atheists just like there are Jewish atheists and Islamic atheists. While Islamic atheists hide their disbelief because they don't want to be beheaded in a soccer field, Jews and Catholics do it because there is the family uproar to think about. It's also fairly easy for people to just play Catholic and part ways with the spirit when the family gathering is over. Shit even the priests aren't Catholic. I've been to a few midnight masses where to priest was stumbling over drunk during the Eucharist. So yeah for people who were raised Catholic, I don't think we have as much of a problem detaching from faith all together because no one other than the babushka-wearing grandmas really have faith and, speaking personally, when I converted to Christianity it was because I wanted something more real. They seemed to have a more personal relationship with this God. When I was going to the Christian church I was just as detached. I guess the quasi-faith we were ingrained with in Catholic school really saved me from being a fundie.

 

As far as nuns go, I can't fuckin stand them and leave the name calling out of it. They are so nice when the parents are around, but made us all feel like Hansel and Gretel between the hours of 8A-3P M-F. Ah hell I'll say it, their fuckin evil two-faced closeted lesbian cunts. I feel better now.

 

Catholicism is very different in style... the rituals and such really are comforting if you grew up with them. Mass doesn't make me cringe like a Protestant service does. Granted, I don't believe in it anymore, but it's just... cool. I have always said Catholics have a monopoly on beautiful churches... and it is the truth. My huusband was amazed the first time he stepped into one, and it wasn't even a very pretty one!

 

You ever been in a Greek Orthodox church - way more gaudy and they have funnier hats. I'm going to disagree with the church thing because it was torture to sit there for an hour and listen to them drone on and on and sit and stand and kneel and Eucharist and peace and yammering and procession out the door. The churches are nice to walk through after mass though, and it's great to stand at the pulpit and hear your voice echo.

 

Why do so many Protestants take this stance? The Catholic church is the only church that has sworn off proselytizing among Jews - a big step, in my opinion. I admired JP2's attempts to establish communication between the Church and other religious groups and leaders, such as the Dalai Lama, as opposed to, say, the Patriach of Moscow, who consistently refused to meet with him, even when offered an opportunity to, and condemned the Papal visit to Ukraine. And hey, the guy forgave the Turk who tried to shoot him, even visited him in prison. I have to admit, that's a noble thing to do. Overall, I would much rather have Catholic friends than some fundamentalist Protestant friends who are always prodding me into going to their youth group and having prayer-orgasms (and, of course, telling me to break off with my Catholic friends because they worship the devil). It amazes me how the fundie churches proselytize among Catholics because they're not "real Christians" and need to be "saved" from Catholicism. Where does all the Catholic hate come from? I realize people on here have had run-ins with Catholics and Catholicism, but if I had a choice as to which half of Christianity would exist and which would be disestablished, I'd go with the Catholic half any day.

 

Yeah they're pretty benign now, but the Crusades??

[Amethyst]

Add me to the "went to Lutheran school" list. And yeah, they were seriously lacking in science education.

[Skankboy]

Just a gut reaction, but I'd say most of the animosity stems from a need to define protestantism as separate from catholicism. They have to say that catholicism is "evil" and "wrong" or else why did they split from it to begin with.

 

Just a thought...

[The Sage Nabooru]

Wow, you just described my mom's house down to the palms. Only, our holy water is in a plastic tray shaped like an angel hanging on the wall.

 

That's what I meant. Isn't that what "font" means in general usage? I usually see them on the wall, too, in various forms, but always involving some kind of statue image - Angel, Mary, etc. - or a simple shell design.

 

Most Catholics I know are, in fact, religious. I always thought it was unique, though, in that in my Protestant upbringing, everything was "SPREAD THE GOSPEL! LIVE AS HIS VESSEL!" Whereas Catholics were always much more "live and let live" regarding their faith and others.

 

Add me to the "went to Lutheran school" list. And yeah, they were seriously lacking in science education.

 

Well, actually, I did get the whole Big Bang theory and evolution in school, I think simply because they couldn't find/afford science textbooks that included Creationism. They would just say, "Well, WE know how the world was REALLY created, but this is what THEY want us to think." Other than that, though, the origins of the universe weren't really brought up.

 

The teachers, though.....my big beef with them was that they were absolutely sadistic. I mean, the psychological stuff they laid on us was serious. It wasn't of the fire-and-brimstone type involving religion - it's just that every disciplinary action in that school was some deep psychological shit in how the teachers would just make you feel like absolute worthless crap. I remember my first-grade teacher especially, my God, I think she must've been psychotic. It would not surprise me today if she's lost her teaching license due to the fact that she has absolutely no business being around children, or other human beings for that matter. She chewed our asses out like hell when we hadn't even done anything. I remember her grabbing me by the arm and physically tossing me out in the hallway, and again grabbing me by the arm and literally dragging me, steam blowing from the nostrils, back to the classroom when she sent me to the office to request copies of a worksheet. She did not - repeat, SHE did not - tell me how many copies she needed, so when I got down there, I told the lady I needed thirty, because that's how many kids were in my class. She was surprised and very sweetly asked if I knew that was the correct number. I said I guessed so, when Miss Fritz (That was the she-demon's name) barged in because I was taking too long, chattily told the lady that she needed two copies (a fact I was, of course, not aware of), and then, grabbing me by her favorite handle - the arm - she dragged me back down the hallway, whispering threats and curses at me until I was thrown against the wall outside the classroom, to stay until lunch. No, this didn't happen in the 1930's - this would've been about 1991.

 

I do remember Luther being very big on children's disciplinary matters. I wonder if the school went with the violent and mean ones to better fit with his teachings. Either way, I've come to the conclusion that Martin Luther was a total and complete asshole, and he has none of my respect whatsoever.

[Dianka]

That's what I meant. Isn't that what "font" means in general usage? I usually see them on the wall, too, in various forms, but always involving some kind of statue image - Angel, Mary, etc. - or a simple shell design.

 

Most Catholics I know are, in fact, religious. I always thought it was unique, though, in that in my Protestant upbringing, everything was "SPREAD THE GOSPEL! LIVE AS HIS VESSEL!" Whereas Catholics were always much more "live and let live" regarding their faith and others.

 

Oh font. I read it as front - as in the front room of a bungalow. Honestly I had no idea what those were called in English.

[Amethyst]

 

 

Add me to the "went to Lutheran school" list. And yeah, they were seriously lacking in science education.

 

Well, actually, I did get the whole Big Bang theory and evolution in school, I think simply because they couldn't find/afford science textbooks that included Creationism. They would just say, "Well, WE know how the world was REALLY created, but this is what THEY want us to think." Other than that, though, the origins of the universe weren't really brought up.

 

The teachers, though.....my big beef with them was that they were absolutely sadistic. I mean, the psychological stuff they laid on us was serious. It wasn't of the fire-and-brimstone type involving religion - it's just that every disciplinary action in that school was some deep psychological shit in how the teachers would just make you feel like absolute worthless crap.

 

Yeah, many of mine were like that. It didn't help that I was also being bullied at the same time. By 6th grade I was begging to go to a public school, and my parents finally let me because it was cheaper.

[Evelyn]

My grandmother on my mom's side was Presbyterian and anti-Catholic. My mom got very interested in the Catholic chuch about the time I was born and got all kinds of grief from her parents for that. About 10 years ago, I got interested in the Episcopalian church, so maybe it's a genetic thing. I briefly considered the Catholic church after the small fundy church we were in broke apart but my husband was raised Catholic and had long since left, so I though better of it. Soon after, the sex scandal came to light, so it's a good thing I didn't go there.

 

My grandmother eventually modified her views on Catholics when she lived for a few years in a Catholic-run nursing home and got to know some Catholics and realized they were people, too.

 

I think Luther is source of the anti-Catholic thing because he pointed out all the things he thought were wrong and all the denominations that resulted go along with that. The Episcopalians are protestants as well, or so they say in their prayer book. Their book says they are part of the protestant reformation, conveniently forgetting that Henry VIII formed the church when the Catholic church wouldn't let him divorce.

[Taphophilia]

I went to a non-denom fundy school and was taught that Catholics were hell bound and worshiped Mary and Idols. We were also taught that Lutherans were too much like Catholics to be saved. Go figure.

 

I had a boyfriend later in life who was Catholic who explained a lot of things to me. I went to mass with him and found the whole experience beautiful. The Churches and the artwork are amazing.

 

The rift between Protestism and Catholicism started when Protestism began, with the Reformation. At least, although they would like to, they are not burning anyone at the stake anymore.

 

Taph

[Lycorth]

There is so much venom because that's what Protestantism is based on. After all, look to the name: "Protestant". Well, what are they protesting? Why, Catholicism, of course? The entire notion of Protestantism is based on opposition to Catholicism, from which all of their basic beliefs they emphasize so much come from.

 

I was also raised Catholic. All but the most fervent Catholic doesn't want to prosletyze, because they are taught more to live in the here and now, and not for the end of the world. If they want to do that, there are various religious orders for that. Otherwise, be a regular Joe, eat, drink, and get married, and raise 'em Catholic.

 

Catholics, the more fervent ones, tend also to spend more energy pushing their religion on their family. That's where you get so many stories about Catholics being raised with guilt and so forth, but few about Catholics out on the street preachin' the word. Catholics are more family-focused in their method of carrying out the Great Commission, and Protestants are more stranger-focused.

 

But to answer the OP, all the hate comes from the inescapable roots of Protestantism, that is rejection of Catholicism. Many ex-xians are so hateful towards Xianity simply because their ex-xianity arose out of rejection of the deathcult, so it makes sense.

[Asimov]

According to current statistics, there are 1.9 billion Christians in the world, comprising about 33% of the world population.

 

1 billion of those are Catholics, not including Catholics in places like mainland China or a few other places.

 

If Catholics are not considered Christians by other Christians...then the number of Christians in the world fall to .9 billion...or roughly 16% of the worlds population.

 

That would make Islam the biggest religion in the world, Secular/Non-religious types the second, Catholicism the third and Christianity the fourth!

 

Haha, suck that bitches!

[Asimov]

I'm sure the fundies love the whole 1/3 fraction. If I remember right, Revelations is big on thirds.

 

 

Too bad it's not true anymore!

[woodsmoke]

Um... I didn't say the first thing you quoted. Sage did.

 

 

 

........

 

Odd, I could have sworn I included names with those quotes.

 

At any rate, I wasn't implying anything about you. I was, in fact, using the point you made to make the same point in reference to the Mormon religion.